The thing I've noticed about the death penalty arguments....
Those that played with a death penalty in the older games want it back.
Those that never played with them...as in the "WoW and after crowd"...learned to play in Easy Mode and don't want anything that even resembles any type of death penalty.
Unfortunately, that second group is larger...so we will probably never see a worthwhile death penealty ever again.
See this one come up every time. There are just as many old school MMO players that don't like the harsher death penaltys. Also I don't see how death penaltys make games easier or harder just more time-consuming. I would rather have my time consumed by challenging content than by a superficial game mechanic.
I think this whole notion of death being "painful" or "painless" is just plain stupid.
We never seem to ask "how interesting is death?" What does death enable? Because, it seems to me, death can be easy, but boring. It can also be easy, but interesting. It can also be harsh and boring, or harsh and interesting.
I wrote a blog post here in the Beatnik Box about how "dying worse doesn't make living better." The whole point of that blog was to show how full-on loot PvP wasn't going to make the games any more exciting, because we've forgotten how to put the game in perspective.
Take permadeath, the ultimate in conceivable "harsh, painful death penalties." It is also a boring option, since it is a wasted opportunity to do something more interesting. What if, instead of permadeath, people had to do some "grand ritual" to resurrect you? What if priests had to do a ceremony that lasted several hours, and foragers had to collect several items, and crafters had to craft several objects, and questors had to go on quest chains to please the gods? Now, it might take days, but it's a whole lot more interesting than "you're dead now, so go quit or reroll and do the same stupid content to level."
Or take lockout timers and queues. They are "easy, painless," but also boring. It's basically a deus ex machina on the part of the devs to gate content by arbitrary, immersion-breaking fiat. If they want to delay people from re-entering a dungeon for 20 minutes, it seems much more interesting to make them do something first. Something that relies on the dynamics of players or the market. Something that might take, on average, 20 minutes or so, but could be done as quickly as one minute or as slowly as one hour. It's a whole lot better than simply "locking" the dungeon with a hard code and leaving it at that.
I could see myself playing in either game: the one with the "soft" death penalty or the "harsh" death penalty. Because as long as both games make death interesting, the notion of soft or harsh doesn't really matter to me. In other words, how does death influence the world? Does it create entire markets in resurrection, healing, and equipment repair? If so, that's interesting, since it provides content for entire sectors of the player base. Does it create a mini-game? That's interesting.
What isn't interesting is stuff like full loot-on PvP or lockout timers. There's so much more that can be done.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
back in those days there were also a lot less MMOs to choose from so there wasn't much choice iven if you detested such mechanincs as death penalties.
Having fewer games to chosen from had nothing to do with it. Death penalties is a neccesary evil because at the end of the day, all it really did were bringing people together. Take WoW for example, that game has THE worst solution to death penalties in any MMO out there, because it's not a penalty and it doesn't bring people together.
People like myself who play, WoW (not anymore) RIFT, Age of Conan and so on, would never put up with those death panalties. I'd get so frustrated I'd just drop the game for good. These days the games are so dumbed down that thoes kind of panalities are out of context with the above games.
It would take a totally new generation and new mentality to go back to that kinda game play. I would kinda like it, but I don't think my patience is up to it, after being spoon fed what to do where to go how to do it for 6 years. The change would be too dramatic.
I think this whole notion of death being "painful" or "painless" is just plain stupid.
We never seem to ask "how interesting is death?" What does death enable? Because, it seems to me, death can be easy, but boring. It can also be easy, but interesting. It can also be harsh and boring, or harsh and interesting.
I wrote a blog post here in the Beatnik Box about how "dying worse doesn't make living better." The whole point of that blog was to show how full-on loot PvP wasn't going to make the games any more exciting, because we've forgotten how to put the game in perspective.
Take permadeath, the ultimate in conceivable "harsh, painful death penalties." It is also a boring option, since it is a wasted opportunity to do something more interesting. What if, instead of permadeath, people had to do some "grand ritual" to resurrect you? What if priests had to do a ceremony that lasted several hours, and foragers had to collect several items, and crafters had to craft several objects, and questors had to go on quest chains to please the gods? Now, it might take days, but it's a whole lot more interesting than "you're dead now, so go quit or reroll and do the same stupid content to level."
Or take lockout timers and queues. They are "easy, painless," but also boring. It's basically a deus ex machina on the part of the devs to gate content by arbitrary, immersion-breaking fiat. If they want to delay people from re-entering a dungeon for 20 minutes, it seems much more interesting to make them do something first. Something that relies on the dynamics of players or the market. Something that might take, on average, 20 minutes or so, but could be done as quickly as one minute or as slowly as one hour. It's a whole lot better than simply "locking" the dungeon with a hard code and leaving it at that.
I could see myself playing in either game: the one with the "soft" death penalty or the "harsh" death penalty. Because as long as both games make death interesting, the notion of soft or harsh doesn't really matter to me. In other words, how does death influence the world? Does it create entire markets in resurrection, healing, and equipment repair? If so, that's interesting, since it provides content for entire sectors of the player base. Does it create a mini-game? That's interesting.
What isn't interesting is stuff like full loot-on PvP or lockout timers. There's so much more that can be done.
I enjoyed the old soul shard type system where dying meant an XP penalty (not minus XP but a penalty to pay off) that had to be paid off before you could gain XP or if you could reach the spot you died at in time you could clear some or all of the penalty by finding the shard.
In the modern MMO I think an XP penalty should still be applied but paid off side by side with your regular leveling. So say for example I might die and get hit with a 500xp penalty/debt to pay off but its paid off at 50%. So now when I earn 10xp, 5 xp is taken off my penalty and 5xp goes toward my ongoing leveling.
Ontop of this after dying running back to the point of death & recovering body/shard energy should decrease the debt by 80-90% straight away but on a timer so the longer it takes to get to your body the more permenant the debt. So again lets go with my 500xp penalty/debt. If I run back straight to where I died in under a minute I get to clear 450xp of my debt, so my debt is now 50xp. However for every minute I wait I get stuck with another 10% so if it takes just over 2 minutes to run back and click it I get only a 70% reduction so I clear 350xp off my debt with a debt now of 150xp. Wait 9 full minutes and the souldstone/body/whatever will vanish and you are stuck with 100% of the debt to work off.
Naturally the higher you get in levels the more XP penalty you will incurr and as with many games death in the first 5-10 levels may not incurr a xp debt but instead warn you what you would have incurred had you been outside that bracket of levels.
This along with equipment damage would be enough bite to actually make dying painfull without it being rediculously hard.
All games have a multitude of different servers. Is it beyond the realm of possibility to have harsher death penalities on one server compared to another. Original EQ style on one server and hold-my-hand WoW on another!
Last game with a harsh death penalty ive played since early 2000's was Tibia, there you lose 2% of total experience of the whole character if you have full blessings (that cost a lot) or 7% + equipment loss if you don't. Except for Disconections and Net Kicks's its fair such penalties in my opinion it makes a game Hard and makes you have to be good at playing something to stay on top! nowadays games are just grindfest where you barely lose anything, what a joke.
Death penalties represent tragedy. In some cases, the harsher they are, the more players struggle and the stronger the bonds that people make with one another, in my opinion. Whether that's good or bad is a matter of perception, I suppose. To me, without those bonds, I might as well be playing Pacman. I do realize these sorts of mechanics don't necessarily work in todays games. I still try to enjoy the games for what they are, but I can't help but feel like there is a lot of wasted opportunity much of the time.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
I enjoyed the old soul shard type system where dying meant an XP penalty (not minus XP but a penalty to pay off) that had to be paid off before you could gain XP or if you could reach the spot you died at in time you could clear some or all of the penalty by finding the shard.
In the modern MMO I think an XP penalty should still be applied but paid off side by side with your regular leveling. So say for example I might die and get hit with a 500xp penalty/debt to pay off but its paid off at 50%. So now when I earn 10xp, 5 xp is taken off my penalty and 5xp goes toward my ongoing leveling.
What's the difference? If I lose 10% exp when dying or 5% from dying and 5% debt, it's still the same. As matter of fact, I think the exp from dying method is potentially worse, 10% could cause me to delevel at a point where 5% wouldn't necessarily. The next 5% would, of course, if it happened soon enough after.
...
This along with equipment damage would be enough bite to actually make dying painfull without it being rediculously hard.
Yes, (repairable) equipment damage and/or a weakness state are a nice added penalty, but equipment damage alone is just lost gold and if gold is easy to make, nothing is lost.
Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug. 12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.
Death Penalties is one of my major concerns with the upcoming Guild wars 2. They have areadly annouced that there will be none. The funniest thing about EQ deaths is they always seemed to happen right when you were going to log out. I was up for 2 day straight once when I died in Lower Guk. No matter how many people tried to help me get my corpse back we just couldn't get to it. Funny also because people that tried to help me get my corpse ended up dieing. there waas about 7 people naked at the zone into lower guk and we were all waiting for help. Finally at prime time the next day groups cleared the place out enought that we were able to get out stuff back.
That said I don't really wish for that kind of penalty again. AC had it right on spot I think. GW2 not having any concerns me though, also them giving players the ability to teleport were ever they wish is another concern. I want to feel like I am in a real functional world were death sorta matters. The EQ comunity was to this day the best one I feel that I have been involved with. I think the brutality of the world made people play more responsible and more considerate. I think when you take away this penalty people tend to care less about those around them. The perfect example was WoW. I like WoW alot but honestly I always ended up in groups with clowns that could care less about what they did or how it effected others. People doing stupid crap that I just know would never happen if there was more on the line if death mattered.
I remember when I got my paladin to level 50 in EQ when that was the cap. I would spend alot of my time online just helping lowbie on corpse runs and it felt good to help out. When I was low level I remembered how good it felt to have higher level players help me out so when I got there I did the same. To be honest EQ and AC were unique in this aspect of the game that isn't really possible in most other MMO's. The design of the world with no instancing is what made this possible. WoW was all instanced so help people out wasn't a possibility. These games I feel should have death penalties the STING!!! Not as bad as EQ were you could lose a week of progress in one death, but I have always felt that exp progress should be the penalty, because money penalty like in WoW just doesnt hurt. Time though make you responsible because you know what you will face if you die and there is no easy way around it.
In the same note I feel the penalty should be based on the risk taken. Example, you get killed by mobs 5 levels lower than you should cost you more than getting offed by mobs way higher level than you. Sorry for the long post, I will end it here.
Maybe I am just a poorly skilled player, or a lazy slob. Or an instant gratification nut (as is most everyone IMO).
I fail to see how making the game I am playing a chore with heavy death penalties (Like big time sinks, do overs with loss of level, gear, etc) can add any value whatsoever. Especially if the death is caused by hitting the wrong key, or a team mate's mistake, or even accidentaly getting in over my head, or not paying attention because the phone rings, or even worse ... caused by internet latency, or failure, or my computer locking up or some other such "act of god". Not to mention some player way above my level (actual or skill) killing me over and over just for a laugh.
I play the game to have fun. And just like the Leet "gankers" do, even enjoy fairly easy content. I do not enjoy doing the same instance or quest over and over and over ...... because I die. In fact when I die repeatedly and cannot see any hope of sucess by trying again, I usually abandon that quest / task / instance and wait to either level up or aquire better gear or both and go try again.
I have to admit I have no real experience with truly harsh death penalties since the most death penalizing game I played was EvE online where all you lose is isk and perhaps position in the Universe (like a long travel time back).. I have to admit that after getting fairly deep into the game (after 2.5 years) most of my deaths were caused directly by lag in any battle of the larger variety. The game became no fun. Traveling long distance, waiting for the enemy to arrive or appear, then launching a missle and every thing stops. When the screen starts "moving" again I am already dead without even having the satisfaction of seeing my missle strike .... or launching another from my other missle launchers.
So, I tried the free trial of Lotro, then WoW ... and was hooked on the fun. The death penalty in WoW suits me just fine. I still do not like to die, even though doing so causes only a little inconvienience (except of course when in a dungeon where my death causes a wipe and inconviences others too). I am sure a harsh death penalty (like perma death or losing a bunch of XP, or a level or two, or losing all or part of my best gear. or having to run for 45 minutes to get to my corpse) would drive me from any game as well as causing my play-style to become overly cautious.
The most popular games are popular for a reason. You can say everyone is a fool or a wimp or whatever if they disagree with you .... That still don't make it so. The proof is in the players. Players caused the demise or "dumbing down" or whatever you want to call it that caaused them "Good old days" games to fail.
Course as always this is just my opinion. (which of course is the correct one to have .... /lol).
How 'bout this? Want a death penalty in your game? Then you will find that all the games have any degree of death penalty you wish. Most severe - when you are killed in game then delete the character and loot and reroll. That simple. Don't like that? Then simply delete the gear you carried and regear. This is very easy and in all games. Just as easy as telling people who don't like death penalties to go play something else.
Why don't you do this? Because it is not that you want the death penalty just for your own self. You want it imposed on everyone else, whether they like it or not! In other words you demand everyone else play like you want. If you want a death penalty in your play, then impose it. The others in the game can do the same. Frustrating? Not Fair? LOL you want a challenge, there is the greatest one! Impose discipline on yourself and overcome the CHALLENGE of unfair. PvP would yell the loudest I think.
BTW - Other players (such as myself) who don't want a severe death penalty to interupt our gameplay do not want to impose a non-death penalty on you. You have an option! But, please, leave the rest of us alone to enjoy the game in our own way. Spoil the game for us (majority I am afraid) and we actually will go play something else. Cannot see how that would help keep your game in existance. Ignore us, delete yourself and face that great challenge you want. Just a suggestion.
I fail to see how making the game I am playing a chore with heavy death penalties (Like big time sinks, do overs with loss of level, gear, etc) can add any value whatsoever.
It is because you only think about the penalty, but not what the penalty does when you are not experiencing it.
I can agree that the harsh penalties in eq suits a more hardcore rpg crowd better .. hell I also came late for work after an all night corpse retrieval, and it wasnt fun at all, just frustrating. I also almost lost all my gear in plane of fear once, and that would probably have caused me to quit if I had.
That beeing said, this is only focusing on the penalty itself. The real deal is that it makes you think about what you do, it adds fear of death and makes you consider the consequences of an action you are about to do. It makes your adrenaline pump when you know you are taking a chance that could earn you something good, but it could also be disastrous and cost you a penalty.
As an example, I have played WoW for many years but I never really cared too much about anything. I felt slight pride in some very few achievements or gear, but knowing I never risked anything that mattered just made me indifferent. Now WoW has other attractions which made me stay long is another story.
In Eq as the other polarity, I felt pride whenever I suceeded at something. I looked up to that guy who had this sword that was rare and extremely dangerous to get, knowing if I were to have one it would need to improve and be dedicated. Finishing that Coldain Prayer Shawl quest, completely with earning the trust of Giants and camping mobs for hours and so on, could never be matched by any WoW questing or farming materials.
You could argue eq1 death penalty were too much or done wrong, and I would agree. But there must be consequences to what you do, that matches the challanges - If not, the adventures you partake in are meaningless and simply a passtime and not a roleplaying experience. Charging the dragon and die just to reappear and charge the dragon again until it dies and then save the princess, makes not a hero .. there was never any risk involved and the stable boy could have done it on his day off.
Or how about full loot rights in pvp ? I am not a pvp lover, but I can clearly see how full loot makes your gaming experience so much more exciting than a random pvp game with no consequences of death. With action must come reaction, why else would you take action ?
How 'bout this? Want a death penalty in your game? Then you will find that all the games have any degree of death penalty you wish. Most severe - when you are killed in game then delete the character and loot and reroll. That simple. Don't like that? Then simply delete the gear you carried and regear. This is very easy and in all games. Just as easy as telling people who don't like death penalties to go play something else.
Why don't you do this? Because it is not that you want the death penalty just for your own self. You want it imposed on everyone else, whether they like it or not! In other words you demand everyone else play like you want. If you want a death penalty in your play, then impose it. The others in the game can do the same. Frustrating? Not Fair? LOL you want a challenge, there is the greatest one! Impose discipline on yourself and overcome the CHALLENGE of unfair. PvP would yell the loudest I think.
BTW - Other players (such as myself) who don't want a severe death penalty to interupt our gameplay do not want to impose a non-death penalty on you. You have an option! But, please, leave the rest of us alone to enjoy the game in our own way. Spoil the game for us (majority I am afraid) and we actually will go play something else. Cannot see how that would help keep your game in existance. Ignore us, delete yourself and face that great challenge you want. Just a suggestion.
On the other hand, in almost any game, besides enforcing your own death penalties, players have the option to cheat. That doesn't mean that every player cheats or that they should feel entitled or forced to cheat, does it?
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
The same idea could very easily be applied to something like death penalties, to remind us of what we’re working for without making us bang our head on our keyboard in frustration. You could have no (or little) death penalty in the first few levels of a game, or even a sliding scale of penalties depending on your level; you could have no death penalty at all in situations where dying is a penalty in and of itself, like in difficult dungeons or PvP; hell, you could have varying penalties for PvE, PvP, or specific activities within both those realms. It may be more difficult to design and code, but it’s certainly not impossible.
Penalties that scale up or vary depending on the death. This seems to be inspired from one of my posts. I don't mind. I'm actually happy someone agrees.
How 'bout this? Want a death penalty in your game? Then you will find that all the games have any degree of death penalty you wish. Most severe - when you are killed in game then delete the character and loot and reroll. That simple. Don't like that? Then simply delete the gear you carried and regear. This is very easy and in all games. Just as easy as telling people who don't like death penalties to go play something else.
Why don't you do this? Because it is not that you want the death penalty just for your own self. You want it imposed on everyone else, whether they like it or not! In other words you demand everyone else play like you want. If you want a death penalty in your play, then impose it. The others in the game can do the same. Frustrating? Not Fair? LOL you want a challenge, there is the greatest one! Impose discipline on yourself and overcome the CHALLENGE of unfair. PvP would yell the loudest I think.
BTW - Other players (such as myself) who don't want a severe death penalty to interupt our gameplay do not want to impose a non-death penalty on you. You have an option! But, please, leave the rest of us alone to enjoy the game in our own way. Spoil the game for us (majority I am afraid) and we actually will go play something else. Cannot see how that would help keep your game in existance. Ignore us, delete yourself and face that great challenge you want. Just a suggestion.
Originally posted by Palebane
On the other hand, in almost any game, besides enforcing your own death penalties, players have the option to cheat. That doesn't mean that every player cheats or that they should feel entitled or forced to cheat, does it?
Garry offered a solution for those who want harsher death penalties. I fail to see how cheating has anything to do with it . He is not suggesting cheating ... just a way you can make your own death more meaningfuil (to you) without impacting those who do not desire harsh penalties. You could start a guild ... like "the elite masochists" (just kidding).
I fail to see how making the game I am playing a chore with heavy death penalties (Like big time sinks, do overs with loss of level, gear, etc) can add any value whatsoever.
It is because you only think about the penalty, but not what the penalty does when you are not experiencing it.
I can agree that the harsh penalties in eq suits a more hardcore rpg crowd better .. hell I also came late for work after an all night corpse retrieval, and it wasnt fun at all, just frustrating. I also almost lost all my gear in plane of fear once, and that would probably have caused me to quit if I had.
That beeing said, this is only focusing on the penalty itself. The real deal is that it makes you think about what you do, it adds fear of death and makes you consider the consequences of an action you are about to do. It makes your adrenaline pump when you know you are taking a chance that could earn you something good, but it could also be disastrous and cost you a penalty.
As an example, I have played WoW for many years but I never really cared too much about anything. I felt slight pride in some very few achievements or gear, but knowing I never risked anything that mattered just made me indifferent. Now WoW has other attractions which made me stay long is another story.
In Eq as the other polarity, I felt pride whenever I suceeded at something. I looked up to that guy who had this sword that was rare and extremely dangerous to get, knowing if I were to have one it would need to improve and be dedicated. Finishing that Coldain Prayer Shawl quest, completely with earning the trust of Giants and camping mobs for hours and so on, could never be matched by any WoW questing or farming materials.
You could argue eq1 death penalty were too much or done wrong, and I would agree. But there must be consequences to what you do, that matches the challanges - If not, the adventures you partake in are meaningless and simply a passtime and not a roleplaying experience. Charging the dragon and die just to reappear and charge the dragon again until it dies and then save the princess, makes not a hero .. there was never any risk involved and the stable boy could have done it on his day off.
Or how about full loot rights in pvp ? I am not a pvp lover, but I can clearly see how full loot makes your gaming experience so much more exciting than a random pvp game with no consequences of death. With action must come reaction, why else would you take action ?
Adding a game mechanic that seriously makes players consider quitting (as you say above) is extremly poor for your gaming business.
The developers of guild wars 2 put my feelings on the matter rather succinctly.
Players who have recently been downed several times will take longer to revive each time. If no one revives you, you can spend a small amount of gold to come back at a waypoint. It's as simple as that, and why not? Why should we debuff you, take away experience, or make you run around for five minutes as a ghost instead of letting you actually play the game? We couldn't think of a reason. Well, we did actually think of a reason--it just wasn't a good one. Death penalties make death in-game a more tense experience. It just isn't fun. We want to get you back into the action (fun) as quickly as possible. Defeat is the penalty; we don't have to penalize you a second time. (Bold blueness is my addition to the quote)
As to full loot rights in PVP ..... it would only encourage folks to do more ganking .... the only ones it would please would be the winers. Fair fights in PVP are few and far between (cept maybe in Arena Matches). Many a noob would ragequit before even getting a foothold in the game.
How 'bout this? Want a death penalty in your game? Then you will find that all the games have any degree of death penalty you wish. Most severe - when you are killed in game then delete the character and loot and reroll. That simple. Don't like that? Then simply delete the gear you carried and regear. This is very easy and in all games. Just as easy as telling people who don't like death penalties to go play something else.
Why don't you do this? Because it is not that you want the death penalty just for your own self. You want it imposed on everyone else, whether they like it or not! In other words you demand everyone else play like you want. If you want a death penalty in your play, then impose it. The others in the game can do the same. Frustrating? Not Fair? LOL you want a challenge, there is the greatest one! Impose discipline on yourself and overcome the CHALLENGE of unfair. PvP would yell the loudest I think.
BTW - Other players (such as myself) who don't want a severe death penalty to interupt our gameplay do not want to impose a non-death penalty on you. You have an option! But, please, leave the rest of us alone to enjoy the game in our own way. Spoil the game for us (majority I am afraid) and we actually will go play something else. Cannot see how that would help keep your game in existance. Ignore us, delete yourself and face that great challenge you want. Just a suggestion.
Originally posted by Palebane
On the other hand, in almost any game, besides enforcing your own death penalties, players have the option to cheat. That doesn't mean that every player cheats or that they should feel entitled or forced to cheat, does it?
Garry offered a solution for those who want harsher death penalties. I fail to see how cheating has anything to do with it . He is not suggesting cheating ... just a way you can make your own death more meaningfuil (to you) without impacting those who do not desire harsh penalties. You could start a guild ... like "the elite masochists" (just kidding).
I'm not saying either of you are wrong. I often enforce stricter death penalties in games I play, especially single player games. But what I was getting at, cryptically, is that (to me) easy death penalties are a cheat. You are essentially cheating death if there is no penalty. We can argue all day long about whether that is good or bad for an online community. I was just offering an alternative way of looking at it.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Comments
See this one come up every time. There are just as many old school MMO players that don't like the harsher death penaltys. Also I don't see how death penaltys make games easier or harder just more time-consuming. I would rather have my time consumed by challenging content than by a superficial game mechanic.
My theme song.
I think this whole notion of death being "painful" or "painless" is just plain stupid.
We never seem to ask "how interesting is death?" What does death enable? Because, it seems to me, death can be easy, but boring. It can also be easy, but interesting. It can also be harsh and boring, or harsh and interesting.
I wrote a blog post here in the Beatnik Box about how "dying worse doesn't make living better." The whole point of that blog was to show how full-on loot PvP wasn't going to make the games any more exciting, because we've forgotten how to put the game in perspective.
Take permadeath, the ultimate in conceivable "harsh, painful death penalties." It is also a boring option, since it is a wasted opportunity to do something more interesting. What if, instead of permadeath, people had to do some "grand ritual" to resurrect you? What if priests had to do a ceremony that lasted several hours, and foragers had to collect several items, and crafters had to craft several objects, and questors had to go on quest chains to please the gods? Now, it might take days, but it's a whole lot more interesting than "you're dead now, so go quit or reroll and do the same stupid content to level."
Or take lockout timers and queues. They are "easy, painless," but also boring. It's basically a deus ex machina on the part of the devs to gate content by arbitrary, immersion-breaking fiat. If they want to delay people from re-entering a dungeon for 20 minutes, it seems much more interesting to make them do something first. Something that relies on the dynamics of players or the market. Something that might take, on average, 20 minutes or so, but could be done as quickly as one minute or as slowly as one hour. It's a whole lot better than simply "locking" the dungeon with a hard code and leaving it at that.
I could see myself playing in either game: the one with the "soft" death penalty or the "harsh" death penalty. Because as long as both games make death interesting, the notion of soft or harsh doesn't really matter to me. In other words, how does death influence the world? Does it create entire markets in resurrection, healing, and equipment repair? If so, that's interesting, since it provides content for entire sectors of the player base. Does it create a mini-game? That's interesting.
What isn't interesting is stuff like full loot-on PvP or lockout timers. There's so much more that can be done.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Having fewer games to chosen from had nothing to do with it. Death penalties is a neccesary evil because at the end of the day, all it really did were bringing people together. Take WoW for example, that game has THE worst solution to death penalties in any MMO out there, because it's not a penalty and it doesn't bring people together.
People like myself who play, WoW (not anymore) RIFT, Age of Conan and so on, would never put up with those death panalties. I'd get so frustrated I'd just drop the game for good. These days the games are so dumbed down that thoes kind of panalities are out of context with the above games.
It would take a totally new generation and new mentality to go back to that kinda game play. I would kinda like it, but I don't think my patience is up to it, after being spoon fed what to do where to go how to do it for 6 years. The change would be too dramatic.
This is a really good post. I salute you.
I enjoyed the old soul shard type system where dying meant an XP penalty (not minus XP but a penalty to pay off) that had to be paid off before you could gain XP or if you could reach the spot you died at in time you could clear some or all of the penalty by finding the shard.
In the modern MMO I think an XP penalty should still be applied but paid off side by side with your regular leveling. So say for example I might die and get hit with a 500xp penalty/debt to pay off but its paid off at 50%. So now when I earn 10xp, 5 xp is taken off my penalty and 5xp goes toward my ongoing leveling.
Ontop of this after dying running back to the point of death & recovering body/shard energy should decrease the debt by 80-90% straight away but on a timer so the longer it takes to get to your body the more permenant the debt. So again lets go with my 500xp penalty/debt. If I run back straight to where I died in under a minute I get to clear 450xp of my debt, so my debt is now 50xp. However for every minute I wait I get stuck with another 10% so if it takes just over 2 minutes to run back and click it I get only a 70% reduction so I clear 350xp off my debt with a debt now of 150xp. Wait 9 full minutes and the souldstone/body/whatever will vanish and you are stuck with 100% of the debt to work off.
Naturally the higher you get in levels the more XP penalty you will incurr and as with many games death in the first 5-10 levels may not incurr a xp debt but instead warn you what you would have incurred had you been outside that bracket of levels.
This along with equipment damage would be enough bite to actually make dying painfull without it being rediculously hard.
Last game with a harsh death penalty ive played since early 2000's was Tibia, there you lose 2% of total experience of the whole character if you have full blessings (that cost a lot) or 7% + equipment loss if you don't. Except for Disconections and Net Kicks's its fair such penalties in my opinion it makes a game Hard and makes you have to be good at playing something to stay on top! nowadays games are just grindfest where you barely lose anything, what a joke.
You don't want to die, but if you ever found immortality, then life itself would be pointless.
If there are no consequences of failing, then the deed itself will also be pointless... this goes for real life aswell as gaming. Nothing more to say.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
Death penalties represent tragedy. In some cases, the harsher they are, the more players struggle and the stronger the bonds that people make with one another, in my opinion. Whether that's good or bad is a matter of perception, I suppose. To me, without those bonds, I might as well be playing Pacman. I do realize these sorts of mechanics don't necessarily work in todays games. I still try to enjoy the games for what they are, but I can't help but feel like there is a lot of wasted opportunity much of the time.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug.
12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.
Death Penalties is one of my major concerns with the upcoming Guild wars 2. They have areadly annouced that there will be none. The funniest thing about EQ deaths is they always seemed to happen right when you were going to log out. I was up for 2 day straight once when I died in Lower Guk. No matter how many people tried to help me get my corpse back we just couldn't get to it. Funny also because people that tried to help me get my corpse ended up dieing. there waas about 7 people naked at the zone into lower guk and we were all waiting for help. Finally at prime time the next day groups cleared the place out enought that we were able to get out stuff back.
That said I don't really wish for that kind of penalty again. AC had it right on spot I think. GW2 not having any concerns me though, also them giving players the ability to teleport were ever they wish is another concern. I want to feel like I am in a real functional world were death sorta matters. The EQ comunity was to this day the best one I feel that I have been involved with. I think the brutality of the world made people play more responsible and more considerate. I think when you take away this penalty people tend to care less about those around them. The perfect example was WoW. I like WoW alot but honestly I always ended up in groups with clowns that could care less about what they did or how it effected others. People doing stupid crap that I just know would never happen if there was more on the line if death mattered.
I remember when I got my paladin to level 50 in EQ when that was the cap. I would spend alot of my time online just helping lowbie on corpse runs and it felt good to help out. When I was low level I remembered how good it felt to have higher level players help me out so when I got there I did the same. To be honest EQ and AC were unique in this aspect of the game that isn't really possible in most other MMO's. The design of the world with no instancing is what made this possible. WoW was all instanced so help people out wasn't a possibility. These games I feel should have death penalties the STING!!! Not as bad as EQ were you could lose a week of progress in one death, but I have always felt that exp progress should be the penalty, because money penalty like in WoW just doesnt hurt. Time though make you responsible because you know what you will face if you die and there is no easy way around it.
In the same note I feel the penalty should be based on the risk taken. Example, you get killed by mobs 5 levels lower than you should cost you more than getting offed by mobs way higher level than you. Sorry for the long post, I will end it here.
Maybe I am just a poorly skilled player, or a lazy slob. Or an instant gratification nut (as is most everyone IMO).
I fail to see how making the game I am playing a chore with heavy death penalties (Like big time sinks, do overs with loss of level, gear, etc) can add any value whatsoever. Especially if the death is caused by hitting the wrong key, or a team mate's mistake, or even accidentaly getting in over my head, or not paying attention because the phone rings, or even worse ... caused by internet latency, or failure, or my computer locking up or some other such "act of god". Not to mention some player way above my level (actual or skill) killing me over and over just for a laugh.
I play the game to have fun. And just like the Leet "gankers" do, even enjoy fairly easy content. I do not enjoy doing the same instance or quest over and over and over ...... because I die. In fact when I die repeatedly and cannot see any hope of sucess by trying again, I usually abandon that quest / task / instance and wait to either level up or aquire better gear or both and go try again.
I have to admit I have no real experience with truly harsh death penalties since the most death penalizing game I played was EvE online where all you lose is isk and perhaps position in the Universe (like a long travel time back).. I have to admit that after getting fairly deep into the game (after 2.5 years) most of my deaths were caused directly by lag in any battle of the larger variety. The game became no fun. Traveling long distance, waiting for the enemy to arrive or appear, then launching a missle and every thing stops. When the screen starts "moving" again I am already dead without even having the satisfaction of seeing my missle strike .... or launching another from my other missle launchers.
So, I tried the free trial of Lotro, then WoW ... and was hooked on the fun. The death penalty in WoW suits me just fine. I still do not like to die, even though doing so causes only a little inconvienience (except of course when in a dungeon where my death causes a wipe and inconviences others too). I am sure a harsh death penalty (like perma death or losing a bunch of XP, or a level or two, or losing all or part of my best gear. or having to run for 45 minutes to get to my corpse) would drive me from any game as well as causing my play-style to become overly cautious.
The most popular games are popular for a reason. You can say everyone is a fool or a wimp or whatever if they disagree with you .... That still don't make it so. The proof is in the players. Players caused the demise or "dumbing down" or whatever you want to call it that caaused them "Good old days" games to fail.
Course as always this is just my opinion. (which of course is the correct one to have .... /lol).
If Ya Ain't Dyin, Ya Ain't Tryin
Amen Brother ....
If Ya Ain't Dyin, Ya Ain't Tryin
It is because you only think about the penalty, but not what the penalty does when you are not experiencing it.
I can agree that the harsh penalties in eq suits a more hardcore rpg crowd better .. hell I also came late for work after an all night corpse retrieval, and it wasnt fun at all, just frustrating. I also almost lost all my gear in plane of fear once, and that would probably have caused me to quit if I had.
That beeing said, this is only focusing on the penalty itself. The real deal is that it makes you think about what you do, it adds fear of death and makes you consider the consequences of an action you are about to do. It makes your adrenaline pump when you know you are taking a chance that could earn you something good, but it could also be disastrous and cost you a penalty.
As an example, I have played WoW for many years but I never really cared too much about anything. I felt slight pride in some very few achievements or gear, but knowing I never risked anything that mattered just made me indifferent. Now WoW has other attractions which made me stay long is another story.
In Eq as the other polarity, I felt pride whenever I suceeded at something. I looked up to that guy who had this sword that was rare and extremely dangerous to get, knowing if I were to have one it would need to improve and be dedicated. Finishing that Coldain Prayer Shawl quest, completely with earning the trust of Giants and camping mobs for hours and so on, could never be matched by any WoW questing or farming materials.
You could argue eq1 death penalty were too much or done wrong, and I would agree. But there must be consequences to what you do, that matches the challanges - If not, the adventures you partake in are meaningless and simply a passtime and not a roleplaying experience. Charging the dragon and die just to reappear and charge the dragon again until it dies and then save the princess, makes not a hero .. there was never any risk involved and the stable boy could have done it on his day off.
Or how about full loot rights in pvp ? I am not a pvp lover, but I can clearly see how full loot makes your gaming experience so much more exciting than a random pvp game with no consequences of death. With action must come reaction, why else would you take action ?
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
On the other hand, in almost any game, besides enforcing your own death penalties, players have the option to cheat. That doesn't mean that every player cheats or that they should feel entitled or forced to cheat, does it?
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Penalties that scale up or vary depending on the death. This seems to be inspired from one of my posts. I don't mind. I'm actually happy someone agrees.
@mmoguy43 -- I'm afraid to say I haven't read your posts, but it's good to know that the Gamer Gestalt Mind (TM) is alive and well on this topic.
@Palebane ...
Garry offered a solution for those who want harsher death penalties. I fail to see how cheating has anything to do with it . He is not suggesting cheating ... just a way you can make your own death more meaningfuil (to you) without impacting those who do not desire harsh penalties. You could start a guild ... like "the elite masochists" (just kidding).
If Ya Ain't Dyin, Ya Ain't Tryin
@kjpmeff
Adding a game mechanic that seriously makes players consider quitting (as you say above) is extremly poor for your gaming business.
The developers of guild wars 2 put my feelings on the matter rather succinctly.
Players who have recently been downed several times will take longer to revive each time. If no one revives you, you can spend a small amount of gold to come back at a waypoint. It's as simple as that, and why not? Why should we debuff you, take away experience, or make you run around for five minutes as a ghost instead of letting you actually play the game? We couldn't think of a reason. Well, we did actually think of a reason--it just wasn't a good one. Death penalties make death in-game a more tense experience. It just isn't fun. We want to get you back into the action (fun) as quickly as possible. Defeat is the penalty; we don't have to penalize you a second time. (Bold blueness is my addition to the quote)
found here: http://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/combat/healing-death/
As to full loot rights in PVP ..... it would only encourage folks to do more ganking .... the only ones it would please would be the winers. Fair fights in PVP are few and far between (cept maybe in Arena Matches). Many a noob would ragequit before even getting a foothold in the game.
If Ya Ain't Dyin, Ya Ain't Tryin
I'm not saying either of you are wrong. I often enforce stricter death penalties in games I play, especially single player games. But what I was getting at, cryptically, is that (to me) easy death penalties are a cheat. You are essentially cheating death if there is no penalty. We can argue all day long about whether that is good or bad for an online community. I was just offering an alternative way of looking at it.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
You can't please everyone with a single death system.
One player will hate the penalties as simply not fun, while another will enjoy avoiding death/overcoming the penalties.
You could have multiple options for death, where you can select anything from 'permadeath' to 'no penalty' for each character.