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MO - Sandbox or just a Box to PvP in
Betel
Member Posts: 365
Proponents of MO keep stressing how SV has not created a themepark game, yet MO has just about zero tools that could be defined as sandbox. When I asked for a list of these tools, the reply consisted purely of features found in themepark games for the last decade and more. Often just about all of these features are in a single game (EQ or DAOC for eg). The other theory advanced is that it's sandbox because you can RP whatever you want. Well you can do that in every game ever made, including Hello Kitty Online.
{mod edit}
Osmunda wrote -
Paratus may well have provided this example because he thinks it is "one of the more interesting and cool aspects". As Rohn noted 'A feature doesn't have to be new to be "cool". ' Of course, if you think it was a boring, bland feature in UO, I won't argue with you on that. After all, different strokes for different folks.
I never said is was boring or bland, but if writing on paper (a feature that is neither new nor limited to sandbox games) is the HIGHLIGHT of the update SV really doesn't have a clue how to fix their game.
As to fixing the game, you could check the server status thread. Looks like the server has only been down seven times this month , with many of those being for maintainence.
Server stability is not fixing a broken game, it is something that should be done before release as part of infrastructure. The fact that you think the server being up for more than 12 hours means the game is fixed is laughable. Are you saying the crippling bugs and lack of content are now fixed? The MO forums don't seem to agree.
Sorry, I should have specified "non-instanced" housing to avoid suxh an obvious retort.
Yes, keep redefining the argument if you like but it makes no difference. I could argue that MO housing is instanced, as each housing area (and they are predetermined spots not player chosen - how sandbox) is loaded as an instance per nodes.
A choice of 3 designer determined factions is still a fairly limited number of factions. In MO factions, are purely determined by the players.
They are in most PvP games, as far back as EQ - the ultimate theme park game.
Can the keeps be destroyed, or are they a fixed feature of the landscape?
They can be captured, upgraded and lost to the enemy - just like keeps in real life. How realistic is a few thousand tons of stone just disappearing in front of your eyes as it does in MO?
Territory control could use more tools (KOS lists, ability to limit harvesting within your territory etc), but that doesn't mean there is no territory control.
There is no more control than there is in any other PVP game. MO has zero functions to implement control, as every guild leader in MO has said - Keeps are useless and almost never visited.
Sandbox vs themepark is a continuum. The only "pure" sandbox is Second Life.
So you are saying MO is not a sandbox then?
And -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuum_fallacy
Comments
The problem.. IMHO, is one of conception as a PvP game. The game has been built on PvP, with some bits of PvE added on top of it. Combine that with the use of an engine originally deigned for deathmatch shooter games and your result is MO. I really and truly believe that (other than the obvious quality difference) the reason why MO has fallen so far short of the mark is because of it's design focus from the very beginning being on PvP and then adding bits of PvE on it.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
"The fallacy appears to demonstrate that two states or conditions cannot be considered distinct (or do not exist at all) because between them there exists a continuum of states. According to the fallacy, differences in quality cannot result from differences in quantity."
Since you are proposing that "sandbox" and "themepark" are two distinct states and that there is no continuum between the two, could you define in precise terms what is a sandbox and what is a themepark. To keep it simple you could start with something simple, such as how do the two differ with regard to housing.
Somewhat off topic, but how does improving server stability NOT qualify as "fixing the game".
P.S. The houses can NOT be considered an instance since they load while you are outside of them, If you insist on the semantics of a node and an instance being identical, then all houses within the region of the same node are part of the same instance.
http://www.killtenrats.com/2009/12/06/the-ultimate-sandbox-mmo/
Ofcourse MortalOnline is a sandbox. To make a post stating MortalOnline is not a sandbox MMORPG would show that the poster has no idea what a sandbox MMO is, is ignorant of what MortalOnline is, or is just trolling.
MortalOnline has all the features required to make a sandbox MMO a sandbox.
MortalOnline has open world PVP full loot pvp with no true safezones. Not just battlegrounds or warfronts like in WoW or Rift.
Mortal Online has an extremely advanced crafting system with litterally million of combinations of items to craft. You extract the raw materials from the game world, refine them to different usable materials in the game world, and then use combinations of those final refined materials to create an absolutely astounding number of different items. Many of these combinations will not work in PVP, like making blades out of wood (but those wooden swords are used to train up your skills) but litterally over a viable cominations of materials can be used to craft viable game items. A master crafter knows what to craft with, and what not to craft with, and learns this through his experiances in crafting, not by unlocking a crafting skill via crafting XP points like in WoW or Rift.
There's a player run economy with player run stores in player made houses.
There's in game brothels ran by players for the players, and the developers and game moderators do nothing to stop it.
There's no level grinding! It only takes a couple days to max out your skills. You can be a useful member of your guild in pvp matches the first day you start playing. Not like Darkfall or Eve
You can radically alter the landscape by building player houses and guild keeps. There are litterally hundreds of player houses in game now arranged to form the essence of a player town with player stores in many houses. There are litterally thousands of house spots scattered around the game and each house is part of the game world, not just in it's own instance, like LOTRO of The Realm. You can interact with the outside world from inside your house like shoot arrows in and out of windows. The inside of your house is not an instance like SWG.
You can go pretty much everywhere in the game world. There are no level or class limites stopping you from exploring. You neven try to enter a dungeon only to find out it's to high a level for you.
These are just what's in game now. After the dawn expansion next month there will be even more sand in the sandbox.
Never trust a screenshot or a youtube video without a version stamp!
Responses above. As I said before I think one of the major issues MO has had is that it was conceived as a PvP game that takes place in a sandbox as opposed to just developing a sandbox that might have PvP. That's probably more of a subjective opinion though just like some people dislike the first person view. Just a design decision that some will like and some won't.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I agree with the rest of your post...but open world full loot pvp with no safe zones has nothing to do with sandbox, that's just FFA PVP. I'm just sayin.....
i somewhat disagree.
MO was made as a pvp focused mmo, one giant arena where just surviving is an achievement. sure it's not for everyone but there definately is a niche market for such a game. the reason MO has fallen like it has its 95% due to the bugs, exploits, broken mechanics, broken features, and all arround horrible coding of the game it'self. if this game had been released bug free even with the very limited featured it would have been just an awesome success regardless of how little pve or sandboxness it's there.
the horrible coding killed this game. to this day, a year after release, old and new buggs still plague the game. this is just unacceptable for a subscription based game.
let's face it, there are hundreds of pve centered games you can go play but almost none that offer what MO offers. SV had a great vision but they lacked programming talent and couldn't afford to pay for it.
Agreed with the PvP comment. PvP a Sandbox does not make. I think a good sandbox game can do with alignment style PvP as opposed to full scale "Hey, let me show you how to cut wood." "Really? Thanks!" "First, you take this axe and" *SWOOSH* *newbie dies*. "Lol, noob". If PvP was a little more restrictive I think it'd make for a better sandbox, but that's just my opinion. Running around tossing fireballs and shooting arrows and crushing people with cudgels is probably not the truth in most casses, but it has been a notorious problem with people comparing Sandboxes with elite; newb crushing players with nothing better to do than grief each other.
And to further explain my idea of an aligntment system would be a character with an evil alignment could murder and pillage other characters, but characters with good alignments could apprehend and imprison evil characters or kill them outright. Imprisoned characters would have to break out of prison or be removed at the expense of skill point loss or something. Evil characters would get the advantage of taking whatever they want, but if they're caught, they risk losing a lot of work. Good characters risk losing their items, but have no risk losing skill points. Players could change alignment at any time just by doing things that are opposed to their alignment, but to keep it fair, it would require a lot of work as opposed to simply "Doing one quest". Alignment shifts would take as long to do as leveling to max level in an average themepark game or something.
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There are two prevalent reasons why most people leave the game. The first is the "quality" issue that I mentioned and you also describe. The other main reason is that people get bored... which IMHO is directly linked to the "Box to PvP in" argument. I will agree though that if either of those issues had been fixed at launch there would have been a higher retention rate.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
The fact that this game is centered around pvp is a great thing. It's what makes mortal online better then every other mmo on the market. If your goal is to just level up and follow along with the games story line go play WoW but if you want to define your own goals then there's no better game then mortal online.
Actually, WOW is better at having the ability to define your own goals than MO is. You can go do arena tournaments all day long, you can go guard open land in "contested" zones with a LOT of game mechanics to support it (cannons, siege weapons, etc), you can go and pick flowers and create potions, you can skin animals and create armor, you can mine ore and do other interesting things. You can bless weapons with skills and stats, you can spend time fishing too.
The thing with WOW is that it provides you a 'story' and a treadmill to keep you interested in the game. They keep giving you things to do so that you visit all the rides (ie, themepark) and by the time you're done, you have more rides to check out with expansions and patches for new things. MO gives you nothing to draw you in other than the allure of "PvP", you HAVE to create your own storyline, your own points of interest, and you have to get people to engage in them as well. And once you've done that, there's NOTHING ELSE TO DO. That's why MO is losing population steadily, because once people invented things for themselves to do, they got bored of them and left the game entirely. Others left as well because the game is in a state that is for many people, totally unplayable. And for the few who do cling on they have hopes and dreams of the features that SV promises, but have little to say about how the current state of the game is. Instead, they come on forums like this and hype up pointless things like a new patcher and a new system that allows you to write in books. Woo hoo.
While they forget that PvP is imbalanced and broken, horses still float in midair, the monster AI still runs into trees, people are content with getting saddles for horses and able to write in books. This is why I don't understand fanboys, because logic doesn't come into the equation at any point, and for those that it has -- they've already quit.
Excellent points. The OP presumes to identify what isn't "sandbox", without first establishing the absolute definition of what is "sandbox", or giving some concrete examples of purely sandbox elements that must be included in every sandbox game to earn the designation.
As has been theorized many, many times on this website, the exact definition of sandbox and themepark are not precise - ask 100 players to define them, and you'll get 100 different definitions.
As far as I can tell, so far the OP simply opines that certain systems aren't "sandbox" because some "themepark" games have systems with the same name. Obviously, this completely ignores the importance of the context of each system within their respective games.
Pre-NGE SWG (sandbox) had crafting, and so does WAR (themepark). Does that mean that the importance of crafting within the context of each game was the same, simply because the features share the same name? Of course not.
To the OP, what is your definition of "sandbox"? That information will help with the discussion on whether or not MO is being evaluated from the start of this thread with a valid definition.
Personally, MO fits my definition of a sandbox game.
Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.
you hit the nail on the head, or should i say on the tails.
the closest thing we have to this today are prob'ly eve and l2 but if there was a fantasy setting game with such an alignment system it'd already have my sub bcks for sure. I wish darkfall had this type of alignment system.
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
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Never before have I read such pure, unadulterated b0llocks.
You're missing some key points in your argument, so allow me to point them out.
1. Mortal Online is now gaining population, not losing it.
2. You're pretty much implying that only illogical people play MO. Other than the fact that you're utterly wrong, have you considered that some people don't have to press TAB to lock on, then 1,2,1,1,1,2,4,5,3,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,2,3,4,4,4,4,oneone?
Two of the main reasons I play Mortal Online are the manual aiming and realism.
Oh, and yes, it's a fucking sandbox.
But one with gangs of bullies in it and no adult around in a 10 mile radius.
I agree that it's a sandbox, but unlike 'working' sandboxes like EvE online with a reasonable balance of PvP and creative content, this game is pretty much all about pvp, all supply and sparse economy seems to be centered towards PvP, there's no user created content besides PvP...
Or at least during my trial period I couldn't find any. The flagging system, the whole tutorial and all tips you get on boards are basically "10 ways to survival in a serial killers' world".
For me, a sandbox game allows me to PvP, PvE, craft, create, explore and socialize. MO falls short there in many categories. Especially compared to EvE where I can become a non-combat industry magnate without ever shooting 1 lazer pew pew...
M
Good post.
To me, the difference is one of degree, and of feel. In Mortal Online, I have been able to PvP, PvE, craft, create, explore, and socialize. MO does have a different feel than EvE (a great game no doubt), as I would probably expect between a ground-based fantasy MMO and a space-based Sci-Fi MMO, but those elements are there, in my opinion.
No question, MO could use more tools and content, just as EvE needed to build itself up from where it started. And, it is adding some of those tools and content with Dawn. Ultimately, I believe that MO has a very solid base as a sandbox game that will just get better as more is added to that base.
Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.
Are you telling me that MO is inferior to EVE because EVE isn't currently filled with gangs of bullies, and that newbies have problems more serious than surviving in a serial killers' world...?
If this is true, than it has finally happened... EVE is dead.
For someone who objects to being misquoted, you certainly are taking liberties with what I've said. I noted that MO is not a "pure" sandbox, and that it is on the sandbox enf of a continuum. You deny that there is any continuum, but do not provide any discrete differences between a "sandbox" and a "themepark" If people refer to a game as sandbox because it is towards that end of the continuum, that is perfectly appropriate. If you deny that it is a sandbox because there is no continuum, then you need to provide a discrete definition of either sandbox or themepark (or insist on some other nomenclature that is more specific)
The infrastructure is an integral part of the game, therefore fixing the infrastructure is "fixing the game". If you have a specific bug that you think should take priority, please name it. (Desync is "infrastructure" so you can't point to that without invalidating your point about server stability.)
A house can be placed on flat ground that is not obstructed by a road,,trees, or bushes, just like in UO. If you have the resources to build a house you can do so anywhere that meets the criteria. This is towards the "sandbox end of the spectrum,. Xsyon and Wurm are "more sandboxy" because you can terraform the land to fit the criteria. Most other MMOs have "less sandboxy" versions (i.e. you buy an instanced version of a specific house in an NPC town) If you are proposing terraforming as the discrete difference between sandbox and not sanbox, I suppose that sould be one option, but doubt most people would agree.
If you want alternate nomenclature == Mortal online is a game that has: open PVP with some region dependent and circumstance dependent restrictions; full-loot (with some regional restrictions); ghost mode style death withfixed point resurrection and limited ability to communicate as a ghost; player placed housing with a small number of housing styles; modifiable functionality for housing; player made and player designed weaponry and armor with multiple options for materials and design of individual components; skill capped, skill based character design; multiple races with limited abiltiy to create mixed race characters; player determined alignment and association; player owned vendors that can be placed only at a house; NPC vendors; a very limited number of quests; localized banking; localized chat.
If you prefer that nomenclature, have at it. Personally, I'll just keep saying it is a sandbox (i.e. on the sandbox end of the spectrum) and discuss the individual features seperately.
Agreed.
PVP combat does not make a game more or less of a sandbox. PVP allows you greater freedom to act on part of your environment (the other people) but allows that same part of your environment to restrict you.
The title of the thread poses a false choice http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma. MO is a sandbox style game that you can PVP in.
MO is a sandbox, because it has an Open world, and Nonlinear gameplay. Which are both qualities of a sanbox.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandbox_game,
and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandbox_%28videogames%29.
Your first link redirects to a page defining Open World which lists Legend of Zelda and Scribblenauts as examples. How is that related to sandbox and MO? What similarities does MO have to Zelda/Scribblenauts that DAOC doesn't for eg, if you want to use that definition?
Your second link redirects to Nonlinear Gameplay, which states that a sandbox is equivalent to typing IDDQD in Doom. How does this apply to MO and not to EQ or DAOC etc? (Apart from the rampant cheating in MO of course, I guess that is similar). How about Mario? What relation to Mario does MO have, that other games do not?
In short, your two links do not define sandbox in any way that would apply to MMO's and MO in particular. The fact that you could not find a definition of sandbox further proves my point - it has become a meaningless term used to further whatever marketing agenda a company has.
Oh and hiding the redirects in your link to make it look like they refer to sandbox is just lol.
This thread is full of people who seem to think that "sandbox" means the same as "sandbox as I like to think they should be".
MO's a sandbox... get over it and stop trying to play semantic games just as an excuse to throw insults at an actual game.
As I said a s-a-n-d-b-o-x g-a-m-e h-a-s t-h-e q-u-a-l-t-i-e-s o-f a-n o-p-e-n w-o-r-l-d, a-n-d n-o-n-l-i-n-e-a-r g-a-m-e-p-l-a-y. Which I give defination of, which also has this "The term sandbox refers more to the mechanics of a game and how, as in a physical sandbox, the user is entertained by his ability to play creatively, boundless of artificial structural constraints, and with there being "no right way"[5] of playing the game." from the first link. The second "A game that is significantly nonlinear is sometimes described as being open-ended or a sandbox,[19][20][21][22] and is characterized by there being no "right way" of playing the game." I was not comparing games to one an other, but what I was doing was use it describe what a sandbox game is. I was not hiding any thing into anything if you put in sandbox into the search bar in Wikipedia that is the address that it gave me. How you open the links, and then LOOK AT THE ADDRESS BAR in it, it the exact same address link that I posted.