I just don't understand some peoples preoccupation to respond to an article they didn't read for a game they have no interest in, over features that are subject to change and have changed multiple times throughout the development cycle.
Bottomline is things don't need to be kiddified or sugarcoated all the time in MMO's. Even more, makes things too kiddy stuff and you'll probably end up distantiating the older group of MMO gamers. Average age of MMO gamers has moved to quite above 20 over the years.
Who cares? Censorship Boards for a start.
No - you don't need to sugarcoat things... but if you start being too graphic or controversial you start attracting unwanted attention and potentially losing customers.
Yes - you and I might be over 18 and not care about censorship ratings on games we buy for ourselves - but there are millions of consumers out there who do care.
For example - where I live WoW attracts a "M" rating that is:
M: There are no legal restrictions on the sale or hire of computer games classified M. It should be remembered however, that computer games classified M are not recommended for people under 15 years as these contain content that is recommended for a mature audience.
However Age of Conan is MA15+: MA15+: Computer games classified MA15+ can only be sold or hired to people aged 15 years or older, unless they are accompanied by their parent or guardian, or in Queensland by an adult.
So, right there you have a potential barrier to sale.
Mum and Dad>> Okay.... here's the cash to buy that game you wanted...
Teen>> Thanks! Can you come with me to buy it?
Mum and Dad>> Why?
Teen>> "Ummm its MA15+ but really it's okay... it's not too violent or anything...and ummm..."
Mum and Dad>> Yeah... we think you can you buy something else then...
Not to mention there are parents who will not buy a game if they cannot play it while their kids might see it.
While I do see your valid points to the censors, but just about everyone has heard of Star Wars. There maybe very few parents or people out there who hasn't heard of it. So if the kid asks his parents to buy Stars Wars the Old Republic they might not question it. Not to mention. If you go back and look at the movies its not like decapitation is anything new to genre. Star Wars has been hacking off arms, limbs, torsos, and even heads, since Empire Strikes back.
Look at Revenge of the Sith where it got a PG-13 rating and little kids still went to see the movie. Only to have Anakin murder little kids oh sorry not little kids.... Younglings.... please don't refer them to as children... censors. It might not of shown it, but you still know what happened.
To MikeB Thanks for the detailed game review and game play looking forward to this title now as its shaping up to be really something awesome! Holograms, Datacrons, and grouping seem to be really looking great! Good job on trying out your experiment. I wonder how grouping up all the time effects your compainons if you don't use them or pull them out? Will it effect their story development and will you miss things thinking ohhh i might of needed a certain companion with me at the time for this mission or story arc.
A lot of the affection +/- opportunities (if not all of them) crop up during class-quest stuff so you should be pretty safe as far as companion interaction goes. I'm not sure if they react to stuff you do in sidequests while they are out.
during one of the fansite summit Q&As they mention that affection isnt affected by your actions if they aren't with you. but they have some kind of gift system for them similar to dragon age. I think it was during the damion schubert one because it was brought up due to affection affecting how long companions can take to do things for crew skills.
Bottomline is things don't need to be kiddified or sugarcoated all the time in MMO's. Even more, makes things too kiddy stuff and you'll probably end up distantiating the older group of MMO gamers. Average age of MMO gamers has moved to quite above 20 over the years.
Who cares? Censorship Boards for a start.
No - you don't need to sugarcoat things... but if you start being too graphic or controversial you start attracting unwanted attention and potentially losing customers.
Yes - you and I might be over 18 and not care about censorship ratings on games we buy for ourselves - but there are millions of consumers out there who do care.
For example - where I live WoW attracts a "M" rating that is:
M: There are no legal restrictions on the sale or hire of computer games classified M. It should be remembered however, that computer games classified M are not recommended for people under 15 years as these contain content that is recommended for a mature audience.
However Age of Conan is MA15+: MA15+: Computer games classified MA15+ can only be sold or hired to people aged 15 years or older, unless they are accompanied by their parent or guardian, or in Queensland by an adult.
So, right there you have a potential barrier to sale.
Mum and Dad>> Okay.... here's the cash to buy that game you wanted...
Teen>> Thanks! Can you come with me to buy it?
Mum and Dad>> Why?
Teen>> "Ummm its MA15+ but really it's okay... it's not too violent or anything...and ummm..."
Mum and Dad>> Yeah... we think you can you buy something else then...
Not to mention there are parents who will not buy a game if they cannot play it while their kids might see it.
While I do see your valid points to the censors, but just about everyone has heard of Star Wars. There maybe very few parents or people out there who hasn't heard of it. So if the kid asks his parents to buy Stars Wars the Old Republic they might not question it. Not to mention. If you go back and look at the movies its not like decapitation is anything new to genre. Star Wars has been hacking off arms, limbs, torsos, and even heads, since Empire Strikes back.
Look at Revenge of the Sith where it got a PG-13 rating and little kids still went to see the movie. Only to have Anakin murder little kids oh sorry not little kids.... Younglings.... please don't refer them to as children... censors. It might not of shown it, but you still know what happened.
To MikeB Thanks for the detailed game review and game play looking forward to this title now as its shaping up to be really something awesome! Holograms, Datacrons, and grouping seem to be really looking great! Good job on trying out your experiment. I wonder how grouping up all the time effects your compainons if you don't use them or pull them out? Will it effect their story development and will you miss things thinking ohhh i might of needed a certain companion with me at the time for this mission or story arc.
A lot of the affection +/- opportunities (if not all of them) crop up during class-quest stuff so you should be pretty safe as far as companion interaction goes. I'm not sure if they react to stuff you do in sidequests while they are out.
during one of the fansite summit Q&As they mention that affection isnt affected by your actions if they aren't with you. but they have some kind of gift system for them similar to dragon age. I think it was during the damion schubert one because it was brought up due to affection affecting how long companions can take to do things for crew skills.
There might be certain areas they don't show up unless you have them out then. On Hutta though, if I recall correctly, I never summoned Mako, and she appeared in several class story dialogue scenes. I lost affection with her during one such scene at a certain point of the Hutta storyline. Perhaps as you get deeper into the class-quest it's a bit looser there, but Mako was pretty strongly tied to the storyline as it was on Hutta.
Also, yes, I am aware of the gifting system. Though I did joke with Daniel Erickson about the possibility of gifting your companions back to life (you can kill certain ones off, and this is permanent).
I need to see how the combat is, if its generic wow-like crap I won't touch the game because that kind of mmorpg combat bores the hell out of me now a days, I kinda want a more real time aiming thing. I still think this game would have been much better off as a single player title from what I have read so far, doesn't seem very MMO-ish to me.
Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:
A. Proven right (if something bad happens)
or
B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)
Look my understanding is tor has a lfg similar to wow. In that u dont have to go into trade a spam for a helaer or tnak.
By the way i find spammin a trade channell for a healer or tank usually just gets u ignored. Truth is more people woudl tank and heal if they didnt get blamed by dps who cant stay out of fire or watch there threat for every wipe and bad run people have.
The problem most people have tanking or healing isnt that they dont like doing it i love to do both i hate the fact that if something goes bad u get the blame for everything. Even when the dumb dps goes and pulls extra mobs expecting tank to just peal them off .
I just hope they have a tutorial ont he LFG system, I seen other mmo's with such a system and no tutorial that forces you to try it, where 80% of the playerbase didn't even know the game had a LFG system. I agree with the tank/heal problem, the healer or tank is always the first one blamed. When I played WoW I'd actually single out dps's that were doing something stupid and say something to them right in group chat, Like pulling extra mobs and such. I usually followed a "You pull it u tank it" mentality, works rather well only person i'd save is the healer.
Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:
A. Proven right (if something bad happens)
or
B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)
Again with the missing the obvious Mr.OP. The classes are race-restricted. That right there is enough to lose my interest without bothering to read anything else about the fail of a mmo that SWTOR is.
You ponder TOR's class - race restrictions yet you play an MMO which has the same feature... Tell us, is LotR af fail of a MMO as well?
Ok, fine, it is MMO. We still have the problem: "Looking for healer". "Looking for tank." ANet takes care of this. Can BW?
Lol yes, if u cant find a "tank" or a "healer", all you need to do is grp up with one of ur companions. but they have more than 1 healer and tank class, you should read about the advanced classes, each AC have like 3 trees, so if u need to play as a healer, dps or tank, just reset ur skills points for a few credits and is done.
Sounds great. And excellent use of the word "unsavory".
Just remember what ol' Jack Burton does when the earth quakes, and the poison arrows fall from the sky, and the pillars of Heaven shake. Yeah, Jack Burton just looks that big ol' storm right square in the eye and he says, "Give me your best shot, pal. I can take it."
I don't necessarily believe the linked review is 'correct' but it does say something that seems to ring true
"...Our opinion of The Old Republic, formed over two solid days of playing, is that it’s one of the most boring titles we’ve ever had to endure. It’s plain and staid and deathly dull. It’s both exactly the same as every other MMO we've played, but at the same time so much worse because it promises so much more."
Too much hype leading to impossible expectations again (in yet another MMO)?
I hope not.
But we've all been on this media hype treadmill before.
How is that an "honest" preview? What makes this 1 negative preview any more honest then, say, the 10's of positive previews?
Shrug. Haters need negative quotes to be able to say "See? I told you so!"
That's why they never will accept or acknowledge any positive reviews, 'Oh, the horror, if their opinion isn't the one everyone should have, if there are actually people who like a game I don't like!'
Some people have trouble accepting that there's pros and cons to every game, and that what one gamer likes isn't necessarily the same what another gamer likes, nor does it have to be. Also, for some reason, people don't like it if games will maybe be successful that are games they don't like, I admit, that last one I find the most puzzling, but this site seems to be infested with people that think like that:
'if I don't like it, nobody should, and every game I don't like should fail!'
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
How is that an "honest" preview? What makes this 1 negative preview any more honest then, say, the 10's of positive previews?
Shrug. Haters need negative quotes to be able to say "See? I told you so!"
That's why they never will accept or acknowledge any positive reviews, 'Oh, the horror, if their opinion isn't the one everyone should have, if there are actually people who like a game I don't like!'
Some people have trouble accepting that there's pros and cons to every game, and that what one gamer likes isn't necessarily the same what another gamer likes, nor does it have to be. Also, for some reason, people don't like it if games will maybe be successful that are games they don't like, I admit, that last one I find the most puzzling, but this site seems to be infested with people that think like that:
'if I don't like it, nobody should, and every game I don't like should fail!'
That kind of thinking.
I am dissappointed to see you invoke the "Hater" argument here.
It's got nothing to do with "hate" (for many posters anyway) - hate is an emotion.
In many cases it has to do with experience.
Seeing a bunch of positive reviews for a pre release MMO is not at all unusual. But, a quick search of a large number of games on this site alone will reveal that many of those games were found to contain serious flaws post release.
In some cases those flaws were raised by a small minority in the pre release crowd and those concerns were shouted down often using the label "hater" (and "troll" is another term).
What you tend to find on this site is that there are many posters here who have a vast amount of MMO experience. I wont cover this again - because this has been said many many times before on this site. But the upshot is that many people here do actually have a pretty good 'feel' for what works, and what doesn't.
People have seen games come and go - and seen the media beat up to so many half baked games.
As examples;
many posters raised concerns pre release for AoC because of the restrictions on the beta. Why was there a level restriction? Why couldn't you try all the skills / crafting? What about the end game?
STO was another - the media hype on many sites proclaimed it was the best game ever - yet if you asked any of the (so called) professional reviewers (and I did BTW) it turned out they were reviewing the game based on what Cryptic told themnot what they had seen themselves. Then life time subs went on sale before anyone had even had a proper look at the game! But those who pointed this out were called "haters"?
And right now there are a couple of games getting an awful lot of media promotion yet when you actually look at the available information - which is established as a known and varified 'fact' - you find there is not a lot of substance?
I am dissappointed to see you invoke the "Hater" argument here.
It's got nothing to do with "hate" (for many posters anyway) - hate is an emotion.
It's also a term to describe a certain type of critic, who is predominantly negative and biased, I used it in that context.
In many cases it has to do with experience.
Seeing a bunch of positive reviews for a pre release MMO is not at all unusual. But, a quick search of a large number of games on this site alone will reveal that many of those games were found to contain serious flaws post release.
The fact that game reviews usually are more positive, or that here has been hype before MMO releases, doesn't mean that all positive reviews just should be discarded, only because some people have gotten burnt in the past. That's going from 1 extreme to the other extreme. Where's the balance and objectivity in that?
What you tend to find on this site is that there are many posters here who have a vast amount of MMO experience. I wont cover this again - because this has been said many many times before on this site. But the upshot is that many people here do actually have a pretty good 'feel' for what works, and what doesn't.
What you also tend to find here is many MMO gamers who have become frustrated, embittered, jaded, negative and cynical with the MMO genre, leading to a coloring of their viewpoint and bias into the negative towards everything that doesn't fit their narrow range of preferences. A lot of those overtly negative posters are between MMO's or have no 'MMO home', because they can't find satisfaction anymore in playing as good as all MMO's. I've said it many times, paraphrasing, that 'mmorpg.com is the place where MMO vets go to die', meaning that this is often the last stop, sort of a retirement house before many of those say their goodbyes to the MMO genre.
People have seen games come and go - and seen the media beat up to so many half baked games.
Does pointing this out make someone a "Hater"?
When people shut themselves off for any kind of reasonable argument of the other side, only wanting to see arguments that support their viewpoint and only accept those, then yes, it becomes 'hating' or 'game bashing'. There should be a balance in seeing positive and negative aspects of a game, and a degree of objectivity and common sense, for both sides, critics as well as fans of games.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
When people shut themselves off for any kind of reasonable argument of the other side, only wanting to see arguments that support their viewpoint and only accept those, then yes, it becomes 'hating' or 'game bashing'. There should be a balance in seeing positive and negative aspects of a game, and a degree of objectivity and common sense, for both sides, critics as well as fans of games.
Argeed.
"There should be a balance in seeing positive and negative aspects of a game, and a degree of objectivity and common sense, for both sides, critics as well as fans of games."
And so, in the case of a game like SW:TOR both sides need to look at what is factual information rather than media opinion.
So... from the OP review it appears that there is still a lot of work to be done to make it a productive multi player game.
There are parts that work - and parts that don't. Hardly surprising at this stage.
But the problem is simply taking it on 'faith' that they will work in future (even though they don't now) just because a random Dev says so. We have been there before.
And so, in the case of a game like SW:TOR both sides need to look at what is factual information rather than media opinion.
So... from the OP review it appears that there is still a lot of work to be done to make it a productive multi player game.
There are parts that work - and parts that don't. Hardly surprising at this stage.
But the problem is simply taking it on 'faith' that they will work in future (even though they don't now) just because a random Dev says so. We have been there before.
? Are we talking about the same things?
Could you please link or quote to what you were referring to, because I think we're talking about 2 different topics.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Comments
I just don't understand some peoples preoccupation to respond to an article they didn't read for a game they have no interest in, over features that are subject to change and have changed multiple times throughout the development cycle.
But to each their own I guess.
during one of the fansite summit Q&As they mention that affection isnt affected by your actions if they aren't with you. but they have some kind of gift system for them similar to dragon age. I think it was during the damion schubert one because it was brought up due to affection affecting how long companions can take to do things for crew skills.
There might be certain areas they don't show up unless you have them out then. On Hutta though, if I recall correctly, I never summoned Mako, and she appeared in several class story dialogue scenes. I lost affection with her during one such scene at a certain point of the Hutta storyline. Perhaps as you get deeper into the class-quest it's a bit looser there, but Mako was pretty strongly tied to the storyline as it was on Hutta.
Also, yes, I am aware of the gifting system. Though I did joke with Daniel Erickson about the possibility of gifting your companions back to life (you can kill certain ones off, and this is permanent).
I'm sure I'll have loads of fun playing that game!
________________________
"If RL was an MMO, I'd probably be getting laid more often..."
it looks great!!! i want it! please a release date :P
I need to see how the combat is, if its generic wow-like crap I won't touch the game because that kind of mmorpg combat bores the hell out of me now a days, I kinda want a more real time aiming thing. I still think this game would have been much better off as a single player title from what I have read so far, doesn't seem very MMO-ish to me.
Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:
A. Proven right (if something bad happens)
or
B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)
Either way, you can't lose! Try it out sometime!
I just hope they have a tutorial ont he LFG system, I seen other mmo's with such a system and no tutorial that forces you to try it, where 80% of the playerbase didn't even know the game had a LFG system. I agree with the tank/heal problem, the healer or tank is always the first one blamed. When I played WoW I'd actually single out dps's that were doing something stupid and say something to them right in group chat, Like pulling extra mobs and such. I usually followed a "You pull it u tank it" mentality, works rather well only person i'd save is the healer.
Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:
A. Proven right (if something bad happens)
or
B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)
Either way, you can't lose! Try it out sometime!
Why would a Bounty Hunter only use pistols? That is retarded. A Bounty Hunter uses the best tool for the job.
GJ here looking forward to read more.
I'm still not excited about this game..
You ponder TOR's class - race restrictions yet you play an MMO which has the same feature... Tell us, is LotR af fail of a MMO as well?
Oh the hypocricy
Mmm Bounty Hunter looks like a really fun class to play for mechanics, lore, and quest types. The Agent sounds a little dissapointing though.
Lol yes, if u cant find a "tank" or a "healer", all you need to do is grp up with one of ur companions. but they have more than 1 healer and tank class, you should read about the advanced classes, each AC have like 3 trees, so if u need to play as a healer, dps or tank, just reset ur skills points for a few credits and is done.
Game looks awesome, really looking forward to this.
What's with the spammer? Shoot him!
another site hyping up a very mediocre game, i f you want honesty read this:
http://www.bit-tech.net/gaming/pc/2011/04/29/star-wars-the-old-republic-preview/1
Sounds great. And excellent use of the word "unsavory".
Just remember what ol' Jack Burton does when the earth quakes, and the poison arrows fall from the sky, and the pillars of Heaven shake. Yeah, Jack Burton just looks that big ol' storm right square in the eye and he says, "Give me your best shot, pal. I can take it."
I can hardly wait to play a Bounty Hunter errrrrrrrr nevermind no player bounties back to Rift...
I don't necessarily believe the linked review is 'correct' but it does say something that seems to ring true
"...Our opinion of The Old Republic, formed over two solid days of playing, is that it’s one of the most boring titles we’ve ever had to endure. It’s plain and staid and deathly dull. It’s both exactly the same as every other MMO we've played, but at the same time so much worse because it promises so much more."
Too much hype leading to impossible expectations again (in yet another MMO)?
I hope not.
But we've all been on this media hype treadmill before.
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
How is that an "honest" preview? What makes this 1 negative preview any more honest then, say, the 10's of positive previews?
Only that which agrees with my oppinion is honest!
Shrug. Haters need negative quotes to be able to say "See? I told you so!"
That's why they never will accept or acknowledge any positive reviews, 'Oh, the horror, if their opinion isn't the one everyone should have, if there are actually people who like a game I don't like!'
Some people have trouble accepting that there's pros and cons to every game, and that what one gamer likes isn't necessarily the same what another gamer likes, nor does it have to be. Also, for some reason, people don't like it if games will maybe be successful that are games they don't like, I admit, that last one I find the most puzzling, but this site seems to be infested with people that think like that:
'if I don't like it, nobody should, and every game I don't like should fail!'
That kind of thinking.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I am dissappointed to see you invoke the "Hater" argument here.
It's got nothing to do with "hate" (for many posters anyway) - hate is an emotion.
In many cases it has to do with experience.
Seeing a bunch of positive reviews for a pre release MMO is not at all unusual. But, a quick search of a large number of games on this site alone will reveal that many of those games were found to contain serious flaws post release.
In some cases those flaws were raised by a small minority in the pre release crowd and those concerns were shouted down often using the label "hater" (and "troll" is another term).
What you tend to find on this site is that there are many posters here who have a vast amount of MMO experience. I wont cover this again - because this has been said many many times before on this site. But the upshot is that many people here do actually have a pretty good 'feel' for what works, and what doesn't.
People have seen games come and go - and seen the media beat up to so many half baked games.
As examples;
many posters raised concerns pre release for AoC because of the restrictions on the beta. Why was there a level restriction? Why couldn't you try all the skills / crafting? What about the end game?
STO was another - the media hype on many sites proclaimed it was the best game ever - yet if you asked any of the (so called) professional reviewers (and I did BTW) it turned out they were reviewing the game based on what Cryptic told them not what they had seen themselves. Then life time subs went on sale before anyone had even had a proper look at the game! But those who pointed this out were called "haters"?
And right now there are a couple of games getting an awful lot of media promotion yet when you actually look at the available information - which is established as a known and varified 'fact' - you find there is not a lot of substance?
Does pointing this out make someone a "Hater"?
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
When people shut themselves off for any kind of reasonable argument of the other side, only wanting to see arguments that support their viewpoint and only accept those, then yes, it becomes 'hating' or 'game bashing'. There should be a balance in seeing positive and negative aspects of a game, and a degree of objectivity and common sense, for both sides, critics as well as fans of games.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Argeed.
"There should be a balance in seeing positive and negative aspects of a game, and a degree of objectivity and common sense, for both sides, critics as well as fans of games."
And so, in the case of a game like SW:TOR both sides need to look at what is factual information rather than media opinion.
So... from the OP review it appears that there is still a lot of work to be done to make it a productive multi player game.
There are parts that work - and parts that don't. Hardly surprising at this stage.
But the problem is simply taking it on 'faith' that they will work in future (even though they don't now) just because a random Dev says so. We have been there before.
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
? Are we talking about the same things?
Could you please link or quote to what you were referring to, because I think we're talking about 2 different topics.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."