I was just making a point, one you seem to agree with, whether Farmville was included and at what stage it was when they did this or not. But then in the end you fall back to simply adding up numbers for totals? Which all points to the fact that you can't take these reports at face value.
My feeling is that Facebook and other FtP sources have indeed increased the numbers dramatically. The money, overall, has almost certainly increased dramatically as well.
But I also think that the players are on the move, from FtP game to FtP game, in huge numbers like herds on the Serengeti planes. This doesn't do the industry much good when players are trying things out and moving on.
I also think I see, in our style of MMORPGs, a rapidly growing dissatisfaction and retreat. Already new games are suffering in retention. We see some games dropping off in initial sales. I think sales will still be good for the next round of well known names, but retention will again be a big problem. And after that, the initial sales will drop off the map.
I'm fully aware it's very easy to lie or mislead with statistics, I'm just saying that a simple look at the numbers shows that they're obviously not including Farmville or games of that ilk (Since any one of the popular ones would shoot the numbers of MMORPG users far above the 47.5 million range, nearly singlehandedly).
The methodology they seem to be using involves polling players and extrapolating from that, rather than asking the companies. I'd say it's probably pretty accurate.
... and yeah. Players move a lot. That just means that people have more choices now. People dont' stick with the same car company all their lives now, either.
When there's lots of valid choices, and constant new choices with new features, people are more willing to switch.
That's the same whether you're talking about MMORPGs, cars, ice cream flavors, girlfriends, or... well, just about anything.
When people couldn't move very easily, you'd have generations of people living in the same place, never moving. That's a lot less common now. Lots of choice, ease of switching, all these things lead to more changing.
Look at it this way. This means either 1. MMORPG players are constantly being offered better choices, since they're changing, or 2. MMORPG players, including people as far back as UO and Everquest, are all gullible, because they switch from a better product to a worse product.
Either way, that's not a problem with the industry, that's either a good thing with the industry or a bad thing with the players.
The sheer number of people who turn 13 every year and get into the genre has to be greater than anyone who quits or takes a break.
This ^
I agree with the OP enough to say that I'm bored with MMO's these days, but definitely not for the reasons the OP stated.
The thing that killed my love for MMO's and/or made me bored of them is a conglomeration of different issues, one big one being that far too many people play them now. Any hobby that goes from nitch to mainstream loses all it's magic and personality. Everything like mechanics, story, community, difficulty, adventure, customization, art style, gratifucation, goals, emersion, all gets pushed back to make room for popculture and whatever watered-down changes make the 'guys on the top of the corp. ladder' feel that the games are now accessible and favorable by the masses.
Yes, I remember when I first started noticing that everyone was playing an MMO... this is not the "golden years" that the OP seems to think they were... for me anyways. This was the time I started feeling annoyed with the communities of MMO's.
Too many people talking about builds and flavor of the month specs and cheesy 'winmode' tactics that very clearly translates to the fact that MMO's are now nothing more than e-sports. Who wins? Who's better? What item is "best"? Who's got the highest score? Who's got the most 'achievements'? (really, achievements are a STUPID addition to MMORPGs, [imo])
I mean, if that's the way the games are built, (to attract that sort of esport community) than what can we expect from the MMO's launching as of late? Esports. I mean, they are even going that direction in SWTOR... arenas! Battlegrounds! Warzones! Instanced competition! Gear treadmills! High scores! Match making! ... where's the MMORPG element in any of that? It screams, "welcome kids! Come make yourself look cool with glowing spikey shoulder pads, and show everyone how much better you are than them at finding the tips and tricks to make you win every time! Win win win! get the highest score!... oh yeah, and it's Star Wars so you get a lightsaber." ... Not attacking SWTOR itself, but using it as an example for what seems to be the going average of all recent MMO design choices. No wonder we're bored! We pay monthly to play games that are just degenerating into single-player slug fests with the multiplayer support of a chatbox.
This is not a troll, flame, or anything else worth banning me over. Simply my opinion on a subject that I have great interest in.
This is not a troll, flame, or anything else worth banning me over. It is simply my pure opinion, and I have a right to share it.
The sheer number of people who turn 13 every year and get into the genre has to be greater than anyone who quits or takes a break.
This ^
I agree with the OP enough to say that I'm bored with MMO's these days, but definitely not for the reasons the OP stated.
*snip*
This is not a troll, flame, or anything else worth banning me over. Simply my opinion on a subject that I have great interest in.
I agree upon your post. MMO's have not much "magic" left in them. closest games I get a feeling of playing something unique, is when I used to play DFO, or the very first MMO I played; Anarchy Online. Everything feel so repetetive in MMO's.
MMO companies may be able to attract more new players, but they fail to excite veterans for sure.
Your opinion is repsected, I dont think you need fear anything from that post. Well written!
It's gotten to a point for me that I'm looking back into MMO's past to older more respected titles that I never got around to playing for enterainment now, it's almost like every new MMO on the market that promises us something different fails to impress or falls short and just becomes another filler game or the same game just in a different wrapping. I don't even get excited about new MMO releases now due to their ez-mode diffculty , short leveling curve, and barebones PVP and crafting that is a second thought.
It's not looking good for people that want a world and not another title that you can toss aside in a month or three.
I agree upon your post. MMO's have not much "magic" left in them. closest games I get a feeling of playing something unique, is when I used to play DFO, or the very first MMO I played; Anarchy Online. Everything feel so repetetive in MMO's.
MMO companies may be able to attract more new players, but they fail to excite veterans for sure.
Your opinion is repsected, I dont think you need fear anything from that post. Well written!
Cheers
Thanks, and cheers indeed, but on the point where you said "companies may be able to attract new players, but they fail to excite veterans for sure" -- Do you think that's as horrible as I find it to be? What do you think about that aspect of the industry?
Especially considering that these companies know what they're doing, and don't find anything wrong with blatently insulting the 'veteran' community that virtually created a home for these games, as long as the dollars keep flowing in...
And when we speak up about this, we get the iPod generation telling us to shut up and eat it while laughing at us and insulting us every chance they get because we won't submit to the new generation of MMO standards (compare DPS charts and gearscores and boast about our achievement lists and finding the flavorofthemonth-i-win talent build to help us grind away getting the next season of fashion.. i mean "gear" now that gear is the only thing that determines player worth) ...
So, I'm not cool with that, and I think I have every right to voice it.. Especially on MMORPG.com forums!!
This is not a troll, flame, or anything else worth banning me over. It is simply my pure opinion, and I have a right to share it.
It's gotten to a point for me that I'm looking back into MMO's past to older more respected titles that I never got around to playing for enterainment now, it's almost like every new MMO on the market that promises us something different fails to impress or falls short and just becomes another filler game or the same game just in a different wrapping. I don't even get excited about new MMO releases now due to their ez-mode diffculty , short leveling curve, and barebones PVP and crafting that is a second thought.
It's not looking good for people that want a world and not another title that you can toss aside in a month or three.
I feel exactly the same way, dude... And I'm not happy to feel that way, but it's just how it is. I really have no more excitement after being let down so many times. I see how the games are designed now and I'm not impressed. I notice the half-assedness before launch now. I notice immediately where they sacrifice good design for profitibility now and I will no longer pay even a single cent for them to insult me like that.
The really sad part, to me, is that last sentance you wrote about how these games are no longer designed for people who want a 'WORLD' to play in. That is too true, and the proof is how many active and vocal players voice their "boredom'' with the concept of playing in a WORLD instead of a lobby where they can click an icon that instantly "match-makes' a group to throw them into. Instant action is what the new generation screams, and instead of creating more games for the genre that these people play in, developers decided to simply abandon what MMORPGs are, and reformat them into high-action lobby games.
Instead of saying "sorry kids, there's already FPS and RTS and Sports games there for you to get your A.D.D.-i'm the best player around - i pwn all of you- i need more explosions and killing and headshots or else i'm bored" jollies off with, these MMORPGs are not for you."
The fact that this is "OK" with so many people that the genre changed like this is so mind boggling to me.
What if all the books in Libraries across the globe were burned, replaced with Videogames and iPods and Tween magazines and American Idol episodes, yet, still retained the title "LIBRARY" ... would that be ok? Sure, someone would probably make more $$$ doing this but is that really the point? Do we really need to settle with reinventing entirely the purpose of something just for a buck?
This is not a troll, flame, or anything else worth banning me over. It is simply my pure opinion, and I have a right to share it.
Especially considering that these companies know what they're doing, and don't find anything wrong with blatently insulting the 'veteran' community that virtually created a home for these games, as long as the dollars keep flowing in...
And when we speak up about this, we get the iPod generation telling us to shut up and eat it while laughing at us and insulting us every chance they get because we won't submit to the new generation of MMO standards (compare DPS charts and gearscores and boast about our achievement lists and finding the flavorofthemonth-i-win talent build to help us grind away getting the next season of fashion.. i mean "gear" now that gear is the only thing that determines player worth) ...
So, I'm not cool with that, and I think I have every right to voice it.. Especially on MMORPG.com forums!!
I'm a veteran. I even played Meridian59 for very shortly albeit a few years after its launch.
It's my experience that a lot of these disgruntled, frustrated and jaded MMO vets make the same mistake as they're accusing the 'younger' or newer generation of MMO gamers of: namely when those MMO gamers say they're having a blast and a great time in a newer MMO, by elitist MMO snobs and those same complaining MMO vets they're 'laughed at and insulted every chance they get' for enjoying a game that those jaded MMO elitists despise... it's the exact same reaction done by MMO vets and elitists that you're saying that the veteran community is victim of
So, pot, kettle, and black, eh?
Has the MMO genre and industry changed from how it was in the beginning? Sure. Does this mean that a lot of MMO vets have reason to complain because of not finding their spot in these new times? Sure. If your taste is limited to a specific kind of MMORPG gameplay, then there's enough to complain about if you can't seem to find that MMO gameplay that does it for you.
Does this mean that MMO's are doomed and MMO companies are on the wrong path? Only if you're in that group that can only find fun in a certain type of MMO's and that haven't been able to adapt and find fun in other types of MMO's. Beyond that, the MMO genre is diversifying and expanding.
MMO genre has gone mainstream, it isn't as niche anymore as it was. How much we might dislike these new, younger neighbours with a different attitude, the hood has changed. Complaining won't change that. It's the choice being the old guy from the street that always frowns and mutters and complains about 'those damn kids' and young couples that moved in and how everything was better in the past, or to adapt to the new state of the neighbourhood. Or to move out, if adapting is impossible and constant complaining with no hope for improvement in sight becomes unbearable and too depressing.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Let me quote some research for you from this article:
"total spending on MMO games this year rose by 30% compared to last year. Around 47.5 million Americans play MMOs and although 90% of these play free-to-play games"
Are you going to continue to stand by "That the overall market for MMORPGs has peaked and is now diminishing". Are you going to tell me that a 30% growth is "diminishing"?
This should preety much have answered the question.
FtP games report everyone that's ever signed up to them, whether they actually played for more than a few minutes or not. How do companies cross reference their players to account for duplicates? Does the incredible numbers of games like Farmville (again, everyone who's ever signed up to try it out) count for the kinds of MMORPGs we play?
These reports are like any other statistics. They can be cherry picked.
Geez. Can you at least read about their data before making completing irrelevant comments? At least attack them for what they are.
It is stated quite CLEARLY on their website that their data came from, and I quote, "involving more than 20,000 "invitation-only" respondents from national panels representative of the total online population of 10-65 years old. Field work will be carried out in co-operation with leading international panel partners."
FtP games report everyone that's ever signed up to them, whether they actually played for more than a few minutes or not. How do companies cross reference their players to account for duplicates? Does the incredible numbers of games like Farmville (again, everyone who's ever signed up to try it out) count for the kinds of MMORPGs we play?
These reports are like any other statistics. They can be cherry picked.
Yes, it's obvious they're counting Farmville in the 47 million MMORPG user statistic.
Geez. Can you google & read? It is obvious that you are WRONG if you actually read the website of the company which did the research.
In particular, gaming on social network (and FB is mentioned SPECIFICLY) is a separate category than MMO. MMO is just a part of this huge gaming research.
Oh btw, the number of social gamers (playing games on social network) is 87.3M .. way MORE than MMO players, including the F2P ones.
What facebook has done is get people who have never played a video game to start, and become totally addicted. They have no idea the game they are playing is complete garbage. It's like they are still playing Atari, and don't know that PS3 is out there.
Has the MMO genre and industry changed from how it was in the beginning? Sure. Does this mean that a lot of MMO vets have reason to complain because of not finding their spot in these new times? Sure. If your taste is limited to a specific kind of MMORPG gameplay, then there's enough to complain about if you can't seem to find that MMO gameplay that does it for you.
Does this mean that MMO's are doomed and MMO companies are on the wrong path? Only if you're in that group that can only find fun in a certain type of MMO's and that haven't been able to adapt and find fun in other types of MMO's. Beyond that, the MMO genre is diversifying and expanding.
MMO genre has gone mainstream, it isn't as niche anymore as it was. How much we might dislike these new, younger neighbours with a different attitude, the hood has changed. Complaining won't change that. It's the choice being the old guy from the street that always frowns and mutters and complains about 'those damn kids' and young couples that moved in and how everything was better in the past, or to adapt to the new state of the neighbourhood. Or to move out, if adapting is impossible and constant complaining with no hope for improvement in sight becomes unbearable and too depressing.
Good point here, but I do not understand why it's ok to say "like it or move out" when it's not ok for me (and many alike) to say "stop f*cking with our genre, or move out*
If i don't like the changes to my neighboorhood that I spent years in, growing accustomed to and calling home, as well as paying good money to have that comfort, I'm for darn sure going to complain to whoever's at the source of said changes because I have a right to. Even if I move out, I'd have the choice to move to a neighboorhood that's NOT changing into what I don't want to live in. That being said, I'd still have the right to complain that I am forced to move out of my home because someone else wants to move in and change things around because it would be more profitible.
And on that note, I do only play the games I enjoy. In terms of MMO's, the only one I find worthy of the mmorpg title anymore that is not sporting a terribly dated graphics engine is EVE Online. It is not a perfect game, nor is any game in the world 'perfect' - so, like many gamers in the genre, I feel it's time for more titles to come out that offer a new experience, and new adventure. I am simply NOT going to swallow that I, or any other 'jaded vet' don't have the right to have more than 1 choice of REAL mmorpg. You can't honestly say that everyone should have to play 1 game for 10 years because all the ones that launch in between are clones of the one before, all being designed and geared towards one incentive; "get more players"
This is not a troll, flame, or anything else worth banning me over. It is simply my pure opinion, and I have a right to share it.
It's gotten to a point for me that I'm looking back into MMO's past to older more respected titles that I never got around to playing for enterainment now, it's almost like every new MMO on the market that promises us something different fails to impress or falls short and just becomes another filler game or the same game just in a different wrapping. I don't even get excited about new MMO releases now due to their ez-mode diffculty , short leveling curve, and barebones PVP and crafting that is a second thought.
It's not looking good for people that want a world and not another title that you can toss aside in a month or three.
I feel exactly the same way, dude... And I'm not happy to feel that way, but it's just how it is. I really have no more excitement after being let down so many times. I see how the games are designed now and I'm not impressed. I notice the half-assedness before launch now. I notice immediately where they sacrifice good design for profitibility now and I will no longer pay even a single cent for them to insult me like that.
The really sad part, to me, is that last sentance you wrote about how these games are no longer designed for people who want a 'WORLD' to play in. That is too true, and the proof is how many active and vocal players voice their "boredom'' with the concept of playing in a WORLD instead of a lobby where they can click an icon that instantly "match-makes' a group to throw them into. Instant action is what the new generation screams, and instead of creating more games for the genre that these people play in, developers decided to simply abandon what MMORPGs are, and reformat them into high-action lobby games.
Instead of saying "sorry kids, there's already FPS and RTS and Sports games there for you to get your A.D.D.-i'm the best player around - i pwn all of you- i need more explosions and killing and headshots or else i'm bored" jollies off with, these MMORPGs are not for you."
The fact that this is "OK" with so many people that the genre changed like this is so mind boggling to me.
What if all the books in Libraries across the globe were burned, replaced with Videogames and iPods and Tween magazines and American Idol episodes, yet, still retained the title "LIBRARY" ... would that be ok? Sure, someone would probably make more $$$ doing this but is that really the point? Do we really need to settle with reinventing entirely the purpose of something just for a buck?
Well, MMOs are not libraries. Libraries have the mission to preserve knowledge, on top of serving the reading public. MMOs are entertainment, no more and no less.
And if going to a lobby-with-instant-mission entertains MORE people, it is a good thing. It is not just chasing $$$, but also impact of your work. If you are a developer, do you want your work to be played by NO ONE, or 10M people?
And lobby-based MMOs are obviously different from sports & FPS .. just because its mechanics is skilled-based and so different. That is why it is popular. Crying because we are now riding in cars, and not horses, or why the graphical adventure games, or war games have almost gone away is just denying progress.
Oh, in a busier and busier world where time is always at a premium, it is not only ok, but great where we are going and i fully embrace it. Who has the time to spend an hour before the real dungeoning begins. I have books to read, movies to watch, work to do, family to be with, .... an MMO that does not requires a lot of boring time sink is great. Heck, i don't even raid much because it takes too long. Short, 5-man, quick dungeons are great.
Well, MMOs are not libraries. Libraries have the mission to preserve knowledge, on top of serving the reading public. MMOs are entertainment, no more and no less.
And if going to a lobby-with-instant-mission entertains MORE people, it is a good thing. It is not just chasing $$$, but also impact of your work. If you are a developer, do you want your work to be played by NO ONE, or 10M people?
And lobby-based MMOs are obviously different from sports & FPS .. just because its mechanics is skilled-based and so different. That is why it is popular. Crying because we are now riding in cars, and not horses, or why the graphical adventure games, or war games have almost gone away is just denying progress.
Oh, in a busier and busier world where time is always at a premium, it is not only ok, but great where we are going and i fully embrace it. Who has the time to spend an hour before the real dungeoning begins. I have books to read, movies to watch, work to do, family to be with, .... an MMO that does not requires a lot of boring time sink is great. Heck, i don't even raid much because it takes too long. Short, 5-man, quick dungeons are great.
Look dude, that's great for you... hell, I don't have the time anymore to sit for hours and hours and hours in a raid, or dungeon, or anything mundane either. That doesn't mean the CHOICE to play such a game should be removed. So, you like short 5-man quick dungeon runs... awesome, glad you like them. Does that mean every frickin MMO that comes out from now on should only offer that? NO WAY dude... Who are you to say, and for that matter, who are any of us to say that the people that DO have a lot of time on their hands, that enjoy emersive worlds, adventures, roleplaying, and long journies, no longer should be considered when designing games? That's pretty cruel and anti-embracing.
Also, I'm not a developer, so please understand that my opinion on the state of mmo gaming is in no way (nor should it be) for the concern of "well, what are the devs thinking? what would make them happy? what would make them more money?" -- that's rubbish, and it's a position NO MMORPG GAMER was expected to take when sharing their opinions about the games they paid for until 2004 when all of a sudden, MMO's became big business.
And on your remark about horses and cars.. Yeah, cars were a beneficial invention for the masses. But there are still horses... horses are still born, cars are still made. They didn't just KILL OFF all horses, and make cars called "horses" to usher in the new era of transportation. Horses didn't turn in to cars. Walking didn't "turn into" rollerskating... Chess didn't "turn into" FPS games... MMORPGs shouldn't turn into facebook games.
This is not a troll, flame, or anything else worth banning me over. It is simply my pure opinion, and I have a right to share it.
I'd rather chew glass than play some of the crap on the market today.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
Brink and Torchlight 2 is coming soon so I'm not concerned.
Don't forget Duke Nukem Forever, Elder Scrolls Skyrim, Deus Ex, LA Noire, Battlefield III, Saints Row III, Mass Effect III you can see I'm not too concerned anymore plus the 100k plus other games I have to play, but no really I would give them all up for 1 really good MMORPG its just not going to happen anytime soon if ever....
What facebook has done is get people who have never played a video game to start, and become totally addicted. They have no idea the game they are playing is complete garbage. It's like they are still playing Atari, and don't know that PS3 is out there.
5 Creepy Ways Video Games Are Trying to Get You Addicted
There's plentry of better games out there, but most people are too lazy to research and would just prefer something less than 10-clicks away from their facebook wall. Oh well, that's their life. I used to be addicted to Mafia Wars, some kinda Restaurant City, and something else, but one day I realized how much of a serious timesink those were. They stopped being fun and instead ended up feeling like a chore. That day I decided to give up on those worthless games altogether.
What facebook has done is get people who have never played a video game to start, and become totally addicted. They have no idea the game they are playing is complete garbage. It's like they are still playing Atari, and don't know that PS3 is out there.
You say that like all us oldschoolers aren't addicted to mmorpgs. I think most ppl would say we were crazy for spending years playing one mmo for hours a day. When I think about how much time I spent grinding mobs or camping for hours waiting for a specific spawn I shake my head and wander about my sanity at the time. Not saying facebook games aren't garbage but let's keep this in perspective. Facebook games kill time. Mmorpgs kill time. Neither one is going to change life as we know it.
Yes, it's obvious they're counting Farmville in the 47 million MMORPG user statistic.
Geez. Can you google & read? It is obvious that you are WRONG if you actually read the website of the company which did the research.
In particular, gaming on social network (and FB is mentioned SPECIFICLY) is a separate category than MMO. MMO is just a part of this huge gaming research.
Oh btw, the number of social gamers (playing games on social network) is 87.3M .. way MORE than MMO players, including the F2P ones.
I would like you to go back and read the message you quoted. Read the line directly after the line you quoted by me.
Read it twice. Go ahead, I'll wait. Take your time, I'm in no hurry. Reread it again if you don't understand it yet. Think on what I said.
Yes, it's obvious they're counting Farmville in the 47 million MMORPG user statistic.
Geez. Can you google & read? It is obvious that you are WRONG if you actually read the website of the company which did the research.
In particular, gaming on social network (and FB is mentioned SPECIFICLY) is a separate category than MMO. MMO is just a part of this huge gaming research.
Oh btw, the number of social gamers (playing games on social network) is 87.3M .. way MORE than MMO players, including the F2P ones.
I would like you to go back and read the message you quoted. Read the line directly after the line you quoted by me.
Read it twice. Go ahead, I'll wait. Take your time, I'm in no hurry. Reread it again if you don't understand it yet. Think on what I said.
Feel free to apologize any time now.
Oh. I apologize. I guess reading too fast is not a virtue. :P
And on your remark about horses and cars.. Yeah, cars were a beneficial invention for the masses. But there are still horses... horses are still born, cars are still made. They didn't just KILL OFF all horses, and make cars called "horses" to usher in the new era of transportation. Horses didn't turn in to cars. Walking didn't "turn into" rollerskating... Chess didn't "turn into" FPS games... MMORPGs shouldn't turn into facebook games.
Sure. And developers still make Darkfall. Just don't expect it to become mainstream, just like you won't be riding a horse to school tomorrow.
And on your remark about horses and cars.. Yeah, cars were a beneficial invention for the masses. But there are still horses... horses are still born, cars are still made. They didn't just KILL OFF all horses, and make cars called "horses" to usher in the new era of transportation. Horses didn't turn in to cars. Walking didn't "turn into" rollerskating... Chess didn't "turn into" FPS games... MMORPGs shouldn't turn into facebook games.
Sure. And developers still make Darkfall. Just don't expect it to become mainstream, just like you won't be riding a horse to school tomorrow.
Work, not school, first of all....
And yeah, I don't think Darkfall will go mainstream. If it does, it would then change into something terrible, since all good things that go mainstream turn into steaming piles of bantha fodder with a shiny wrappers.
Also, if I enjoyed riding horses for entertainment or leizure, and then some dirt bag came along and stole my horses, killed them, and bought out the stable that sold me horses, replaced them with Toyota Prius' called "the new horse" and forced me to drive those for "fun" just because they make more money than selling horses, I wouldn't sit silently and accept it. Sorry, I have more passion, opnion, and freedom to enforce what effects me than most people seem to have.
This is not a troll, flame, or anything else worth banning me over. It is simply my pure opinion, and I have a right to share it.
After WoW came out, playing MMoRPGs/WoW in particular became the in thing to do amongst school kids and 20 somethings, it was simply a fad, and like all fads it eventually burns out, and thats what we are seeing now I believe, the end of a fad. Now all these ppl that where playing only becuase everyone else was playing will quit and go back to what they normally did.
So yes the MMoRPG playing puplic will shrink, and IMO thats a good thing, maybe we will start to get good MMoRPGS made again.
Also, if I enjoyed riding horses for entertainment or leizure, and then some dirt bag came along and stole my horses, killed them, and bought out the stable that sold me horses, replaced them with Toyota Prius' called "the new horse" and forced me to drive those for "fun" just because they make more money than selling horses, I wouldn't sit silently and accept it. Sorry, I have more passion, opnion, and freedom to enforce what effects me than most people seem to have.
LOL .. what are you going to do ..picket toyota?
It is a GAME, not like food or transportation.
And no one stole anything. It is more like no one is selling you horses, because it is no longer needed. Now you have a choice to buy a prius, or walk. You choice.
No one forces anyone to do anything. That is the beauty of a free market system. You can't force developers to make things they dont want to make, and they can't force u to buy games that is no fun for you.
MMO genre has gone mainstream, it isn't as niche anymore as it was. How much we might dislike these new, younger neighbours with a different attitude, the hood has changed. Complaining won't change that. It's the choice being the old guy from the street that always frowns and mutters and complains about 'those damn kids' and young couples that moved in and how everything was better in the past, or to adapt to the new state of the neighbourhood. Or to move out, if adapting is impossible and constant complaining with no hope for improvement in sight becomes unbearable and too depressing.
Good point here, but I do not understand why it's ok to say "like it or move out" when it's not ok for me (and many alike) to say "stop f*cking with our genre, or move out*
If i don't like the changes to my neighboorhood that I spent years in, growing accustomed to and calling home, as well as paying good money to have that comfort, I'm for darn sure going to complain to whoever's at the source of said changes because I have a right to. Even if I move out, I'd have the choice to move to a neighboorhood that's NOT changing into what I don't want to live in. That being said, I'd still have the right to complain that I am forced to move out of my home because someone else wants to move in and change things around because it would be more profitible.
I didn't say "like it or move out", but the choices were "keep complaining as the old guy who keeps muttering about how the times have changed and how things were better in the past, adapt to the times and changes in the neighbourhood, or move out if the neighbourhood becomes unbearable".
Which in my eyes is a realistic comparison with MMORPG's and how people can react upon the changes in it.
For those who remember them, in the past you had game genres like textbased adventure games and RPG's, they were great because no graphics can beat the pictures our imagination can draw from; then you had graphic adventure games like King's Quest, Space Quest, Secret of Monkey Island etc, another genre with great games, or what about the god games, remember those? Populous, Populous 2, Dungeon Keeper, they were without a doubt magnificent as a genre.
All those great gaming genres withered away or changed into something totally different.
I or others could've complained loudly and continuously about it, I could've wasted days upon months ranting furiously about, scorning other game genres and lament the loss or dwindling away of those types of games; but that wouldn't have stopped the tides of change.
The same with MMORPG's and how they were at the beginning: people are entitled to invest days upon months and sometimes years complaining and ranting about how 'in the past everything was better' with MMO's. That doesn't change the fact that times keep changing, also the MMO genre.
Besides, it isn't like with the god games or adventure games that sandbox style MMO's are gone completely: there's still indie or B title sandbox games like Earthrise, MO and Xsyon, and for the future we can expect ArcheAge and World of Darkness.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Comments
I'm fully aware it's very easy to lie or mislead with statistics, I'm just saying that a simple look at the numbers shows that they're obviously not including Farmville or games of that ilk (Since any one of the popular ones would shoot the numbers of MMORPG users far above the 47.5 million range, nearly singlehandedly).
The methodology they seem to be using involves polling players and extrapolating from that, rather than asking the companies. I'd say it's probably pretty accurate.
... and yeah. Players move a lot. That just means that people have more choices now. People dont' stick with the same car company all their lives now, either.
When there's lots of valid choices, and constant new choices with new features, people are more willing to switch.
That's the same whether you're talking about MMORPGs, cars, ice cream flavors, girlfriends, or... well, just about anything.
When people couldn't move very easily, you'd have generations of people living in the same place, never moving. That's a lot less common now. Lots of choice, ease of switching, all these things lead to more changing.
Look at it this way. This means either 1. MMORPG players are constantly being offered better choices, since they're changing, or 2. MMORPG players, including people as far back as UO and Everquest, are all gullible, because they switch from a better product to a worse product.
Either way, that's not a problem with the industry, that's either a good thing with the industry or a bad thing with the players.
This ^
I agree with the OP enough to say that I'm bored with MMO's these days, but definitely not for the reasons the OP stated.
The thing that killed my love for MMO's and/or made me bored of them is a conglomeration of different issues, one big one being that far too many people play them now. Any hobby that goes from nitch to mainstream loses all it's magic and personality. Everything like mechanics, story, community, difficulty, adventure, customization, art style, gratifucation, goals, emersion, all gets pushed back to make room for popculture and whatever watered-down changes make the 'guys on the top of the corp. ladder' feel that the games are now accessible and favorable by the masses.
Yes, I remember when I first started noticing that everyone was playing an MMO... this is not the "golden years" that the OP seems to think they were... for me anyways. This was the time I started feeling annoyed with the communities of MMO's.
Too many people talking about builds and flavor of the month specs and cheesy 'winmode' tactics that very clearly translates to the fact that MMO's are now nothing more than e-sports. Who wins? Who's better? What item is "best"? Who's got the highest score? Who's got the most 'achievements'? (really, achievements are a STUPID addition to MMORPGs, [imo])
I mean, if that's the way the games are built, (to attract that sort of esport community) than what can we expect from the MMO's launching as of late? Esports. I mean, they are even going that direction in SWTOR... arenas! Battlegrounds! Warzones! Instanced competition! Gear treadmills! High scores! Match making! ... where's the MMORPG element in any of that? It screams, "welcome kids! Come make yourself look cool with glowing spikey shoulder pads, and show everyone how much better you are than them at finding the tips and tricks to make you win every time! Win win win! get the highest score!... oh yeah, and it's Star Wars so you get a lightsaber." ... Not attacking SWTOR itself, but using it as an example for what seems to be the going average of all recent MMO design choices. No wonder we're bored! We pay monthly to play games that are just degenerating into single-player slug fests with the multiplayer support of a chatbox.
This is not a troll, flame, or anything else worth banning me over. Simply my opinion on a subject that I have great interest in.
This is not a troll, flame, or anything else worth banning me over. It is simply my pure opinion, and I have a right to share it.
I agree upon your post. MMO's have not much "magic" left in them. closest games I get a feeling of playing something unique, is when I used to play DFO, or the very first MMO I played; Anarchy Online. Everything feel so repetetive in MMO's.
MMO companies may be able to attract more new players, but they fail to excite veterans for sure.
Your opinion is repsected, I dont think you need fear anything from that post. Well written!
Cheers
Make us care MORE about our faction & world pvp!
It's gotten to a point for me that I'm looking back into MMO's past to older more respected titles that I never got around to playing for enterainment now, it's almost like every new MMO on the market that promises us something different fails to impress or falls short and just becomes another filler game or the same game just in a different wrapping. I don't even get excited about new MMO releases now due to their ez-mode diffculty , short leveling curve, and barebones PVP and crafting that is a second thought.
It's not looking good for people that want a world and not another title that you can toss aside in a month or three.
Thanks, and cheers indeed, but on the point where you said "companies may be able to attract new players, but they fail to excite veterans for sure" -- Do you think that's as horrible as I find it to be? What do you think about that aspect of the industry?
Especially considering that these companies know what they're doing, and don't find anything wrong with blatently insulting the 'veteran' community that virtually created a home for these games, as long as the dollars keep flowing in...
And when we speak up about this, we get the iPod generation telling us to shut up and eat it while laughing at us and insulting us every chance they get because we won't submit to the new generation of MMO standards (compare DPS charts and gearscores and boast about our achievement lists and finding the flavorofthemonth-i-win talent build to help us grind away getting the next season of fashion.. i mean "gear" now that gear is the only thing that determines player worth) ...
So, I'm not cool with that, and I think I have every right to voice it.. Especially on MMORPG.com forums!!
This is not a troll, flame, or anything else worth banning me over. It is simply my pure opinion, and I have a right to share it.
I feel exactly the same way, dude... And I'm not happy to feel that way, but it's just how it is. I really have no more excitement after being let down so many times. I see how the games are designed now and I'm not impressed. I notice the half-assedness before launch now. I notice immediately where they sacrifice good design for profitibility now and I will no longer pay even a single cent for them to insult me like that.
The really sad part, to me, is that last sentance you wrote about how these games are no longer designed for people who want a 'WORLD' to play in. That is too true, and the proof is how many active and vocal players voice their "boredom'' with the concept of playing in a WORLD instead of a lobby where they can click an icon that instantly "match-makes' a group to throw them into. Instant action is what the new generation screams, and instead of creating more games for the genre that these people play in, developers decided to simply abandon what MMORPGs are, and reformat them into high-action lobby games.
Instead of saying "sorry kids, there's already FPS and RTS and Sports games there for you to get your A.D.D.-i'm the best player around - i pwn all of you- i need more explosions and killing and headshots or else i'm bored" jollies off with, these MMORPGs are not for you."
The fact that this is "OK" with so many people that the genre changed like this is so mind boggling to me.
What if all the books in Libraries across the globe were burned, replaced with Videogames and iPods and Tween magazines and American Idol episodes, yet, still retained the title "LIBRARY" ... would that be ok? Sure, someone would probably make more $$$ doing this but is that really the point? Do we really need to settle with reinventing entirely the purpose of something just for a buck?
This is not a troll, flame, or anything else worth banning me over. It is simply my pure opinion, and I have a right to share it.
I'm a veteran. I even played Meridian59 for very shortly albeit a few years after its launch.
It's my experience that a lot of these disgruntled, frustrated and jaded MMO vets make the same mistake as they're accusing the 'younger' or newer generation of MMO gamers of: namely when those MMO gamers say they're having a blast and a great time in a newer MMO, by elitist MMO snobs and those same complaining MMO vets they're 'laughed at and insulted every chance they get' for enjoying a game that those jaded MMO elitists despise... it's the exact same reaction done by MMO vets and elitists that you're saying that the veteran community is victim of
So, pot, kettle, and black, eh?
Has the MMO genre and industry changed from how it was in the beginning? Sure. Does this mean that a lot of MMO vets have reason to complain because of not finding their spot in these new times? Sure. If your taste is limited to a specific kind of MMORPG gameplay, then there's enough to complain about if you can't seem to find that MMO gameplay that does it for you.
Does this mean that MMO's are doomed and MMO companies are on the wrong path? Only if you're in that group that can only find fun in a certain type of MMO's and that haven't been able to adapt and find fun in other types of MMO's. Beyond that, the MMO genre is diversifying and expanding.
MMO genre has gone mainstream, it isn't as niche anymore as it was. How much we might dislike these new, younger neighbours with a different attitude, the hood has changed. Complaining won't change that. It's the choice being the old guy from the street that always frowns and mutters and complains about 'those damn kids' and young couples that moved in and how everything was better in the past, or to adapt to the new state of the neighbourhood. Or to move out, if adapting is impossible and constant complaining with no hope for improvement in sight becomes unbearable and too depressing.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Brink and Torchlight 2 is coming soon so I'm not concerned.
Geez. Can you at least read about their data before making completing irrelevant comments? At least attack them for what they are.
It is stated quite CLEARLY on their website that their data came from, and I quote, "involving more than 20,000 "invitation-only" respondents from national panels representative of the total online population of 10-65 years old. Field work will be carried out in co-operation with leading international panel partners."
Geez. Can you google & read? It is obvious that you are WRONG if you actually read the website of the company which did the research.
In particular, gaming on social network (and FB is mentioned SPECIFICLY) is a separate category than MMO. MMO is just a part of this huge gaming research.
Oh btw, the number of social gamers (playing games on social network) is 87.3M .. way MORE than MMO players, including the F2P ones.
What facebook has done is get people who have never played a video game to start, and become totally addicted. They have no idea the game they are playing is complete garbage. It's like they are still playing Atari, and don't know that PS3 is out there.
Good point here, but I do not understand why it's ok to say "like it or move out" when it's not ok for me (and many alike) to say "stop f*cking with our genre, or move out*
If i don't like the changes to my neighboorhood that I spent years in, growing accustomed to and calling home, as well as paying good money to have that comfort, I'm for darn sure going to complain to whoever's at the source of said changes because I have a right to. Even if I move out, I'd have the choice to move to a neighboorhood that's NOT changing into what I don't want to live in. That being said, I'd still have the right to complain that I am forced to move out of my home because someone else wants to move in and change things around because it would be more profitible.
And on that note, I do only play the games I enjoy. In terms of MMO's, the only one I find worthy of the mmorpg title anymore that is not sporting a terribly dated graphics engine is EVE Online. It is not a perfect game, nor is any game in the world 'perfect' - so, like many gamers in the genre, I feel it's time for more titles to come out that offer a new experience, and new adventure. I am simply NOT going to swallow that I, or any other 'jaded vet' don't have the right to have more than 1 choice of REAL mmorpg. You can't honestly say that everyone should have to play 1 game for 10 years because all the ones that launch in between are clones of the one before, all being designed and geared towards one incentive; "get more players"
This is not a troll, flame, or anything else worth banning me over. It is simply my pure opinion, and I have a right to share it.
Well, MMOs are not libraries. Libraries have the mission to preserve knowledge, on top of serving the reading public. MMOs are entertainment, no more and no less.
And if going to a lobby-with-instant-mission entertains MORE people, it is a good thing. It is not just chasing $$$, but also impact of your work. If you are a developer, do you want your work to be played by NO ONE, or 10M people?
And lobby-based MMOs are obviously different from sports & FPS .. just because its mechanics is skilled-based and so different. That is why it is popular. Crying because we are now riding in cars, and not horses, or why the graphical adventure games, or war games have almost gone away is just denying progress.
Oh, in a busier and busier world where time is always at a premium, it is not only ok, but great where we are going and i fully embrace it. Who has the time to spend an hour before the real dungeoning begins. I have books to read, movies to watch, work to do, family to be with, .... an MMO that does not requires a lot of boring time sink is great. Heck, i don't even raid much because it takes too long. Short, 5-man, quick dungeons are great.
Look dude, that's great for you... hell, I don't have the time anymore to sit for hours and hours and hours in a raid, or dungeon, or anything mundane either. That doesn't mean the CHOICE to play such a game should be removed. So, you like short 5-man quick dungeon runs... awesome, glad you like them. Does that mean every frickin MMO that comes out from now on should only offer that? NO WAY dude... Who are you to say, and for that matter, who are any of us to say that the people that DO have a lot of time on their hands, that enjoy emersive worlds, adventures, roleplaying, and long journies, no longer should be considered when designing games? That's pretty cruel and anti-embracing.
Also, I'm not a developer, so please understand that my opinion on the state of mmo gaming is in no way (nor should it be) for the concern of "well, what are the devs thinking? what would make them happy? what would make them more money?" -- that's rubbish, and it's a position NO MMORPG GAMER was expected to take when sharing their opinions about the games they paid for until 2004 when all of a sudden, MMO's became big business.
And on your remark about horses and cars.. Yeah, cars were a beneficial invention for the masses. But there are still horses... horses are still born, cars are still made. They didn't just KILL OFF all horses, and make cars called "horses" to usher in the new era of transportation. Horses didn't turn in to cars. Walking didn't "turn into" rollerskating... Chess didn't "turn into" FPS games... MMORPGs shouldn't turn into facebook games.
This is not a troll, flame, or anything else worth banning me over. It is simply my pure opinion, and I have a right to share it.
This.
I'd rather chew glass than play some of the crap on the market today.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
Don't forget Duke Nukem Forever, Elder Scrolls Skyrim, Deus Ex, LA Noire, Battlefield III, Saints Row III, Mass Effect III you can see I'm not too concerned anymore plus the 100k plus other games I have to play, but no really I would give them all up for 1 really good MMORPG its just not going to happen anytime soon if ever....
Agreed. I remember this thingy here:
http://www.cracked.com/article_18461_5-creepy-ways-video-games-are-trying-to-get-you-addicted.html
5 Creepy Ways Video Games Are Trying to Get You Addicted
There's plentry of better games out there, but most people are too lazy to research and would just prefer something less than 10-clicks away from their facebook wall. Oh well, that's their life. I used to be addicted to Mafia Wars, some kinda Restaurant City, and something else, but one day I realized how much of a serious timesink those were. They stopped being fun and instead ended up feeling like a chore. That day I decided to give up on those worthless games altogether.
Right now, I only occasionally play MMORPGs online, and I only play Aika Global right now. http://aika.t3fun.com/Home/Home.aspx
Oh well. It's been great since I stopped facebook games.
<TBA>
You say that like all us oldschoolers aren't addicted to mmorpgs. I think most ppl would say we were crazy for spending years playing one mmo for hours a day. When I think about how much time I spent grinding mobs or camping for hours waiting for a specific spawn I shake my head and wander about my sanity at the time. Not saying facebook games aren't garbage but let's keep this in perspective. Facebook games kill time. Mmorpgs kill time. Neither one is going to change life as we know it.
I would like you to go back and read the message you quoted. Read the line directly after the line you quoted by me.
Read it twice. Go ahead, I'll wait. Take your time, I'm in no hurry. Reread it again if you don't understand it yet. Think on what I said.
Feel free to apologize any time now.
Oh. I apologize. I guess reading too fast is not a virtue. :P
Sure. And developers still make Darkfall. Just don't expect it to become mainstream, just like you won't be riding a horse to school tomorrow.
Work, not school, first of all....
And yeah, I don't think Darkfall will go mainstream. If it does, it would then change into something terrible, since all good things that go mainstream turn into steaming piles of bantha fodder with a shiny wrappers.
Also, if I enjoyed riding horses for entertainment or leizure, and then some dirt bag came along and stole my horses, killed them, and bought out the stable that sold me horses, replaced them with Toyota Prius' called "the new horse" and forced me to drive those for "fun" just because they make more money than selling horses, I wouldn't sit silently and accept it. Sorry, I have more passion, opnion, and freedom to enforce what effects me than most people seem to have.
This is not a troll, flame, or anything else worth banning me over. It is simply my pure opinion, and I have a right to share it.
After WoW came out, playing MMoRPGs/WoW in particular became the in thing to do amongst school kids and 20 somethings, it was simply a fad, and like all fads it eventually burns out, and thats what we are seeing now I believe, the end of a fad. Now all these ppl that where playing only becuase everyone else was playing will quit and go back to what they normally did.
So yes the MMoRPG playing puplic will shrink, and IMO thats a good thing, maybe we will start to get good MMoRPGS made again.
Godz of War I call Thee
LOL .. what are you going to do ..picket toyota?
It is a GAME, not like food or transportation.
And no one stole anything. It is more like no one is selling you horses, because it is no longer needed. Now you have a choice to buy a prius, or walk. You choice.
No one forces anyone to do anything. That is the beauty of a free market system. You can't force developers to make things they dont want to make, and they can't force u to buy games that is no fun for you.
Perfectly fair.
I didn't say "like it or move out", but the choices were "keep complaining as the old guy who keeps muttering about how the times have changed and how things were better in the past, adapt to the times and changes in the neighbourhood, or move out if the neighbourhood becomes unbearable".
Which in my eyes is a realistic comparison with MMORPG's and how people can react upon the changes in it.
For those who remember them, in the past you had game genres like textbased adventure games and RPG's, they were great because no graphics can beat the pictures our imagination can draw from; then you had graphic adventure games like King's Quest, Space Quest, Secret of Monkey Island etc, another genre with great games, or what about the god games, remember those? Populous, Populous 2, Dungeon Keeper, they were without a doubt magnificent as a genre.
All those great gaming genres withered away or changed into something totally different.
I or others could've complained loudly and continuously about it, I could've wasted days upon months ranting furiously about, scorning other game genres and lament the loss or dwindling away of those types of games; but that wouldn't have stopped the tides of change.
The same with MMORPG's and how they were at the beginning: people are entitled to invest days upon months and sometimes years complaining and ranting about how 'in the past everything was better' with MMO's. That doesn't change the fact that times keep changing, also the MMO genre.
Besides, it isn't like with the god games or adventure games that sandbox style MMO's are gone completely: there's still indie or B title sandbox games like Earthrise, MO and Xsyon, and for the future we can expect ArcheAge and World of Darkness.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."