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How big of an issue is PVP?
Dewm
Member UncommonPosts: 1,337
On one of these other threads (won't mention it because you already know what i'm talking about) people have turned the discussion to PVP, whether its FFA, or what-not. And I guess my question is: In a MMO world, how big of a deal is PVP?
Would you play a pure PVE game? or would you prefere somthing that is laced with PVP like WoW?
I know for me PVP is a none issue, I hate it...don't do it. and try to stay away from it.
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Comments
If PvP was "done right", you'd probably enjoy it. Now, how to define "done right" is really the hard part. :P
It depends on what I'm looking for in an MMO.
Aion - the PVP is nothing more than an nuisance to me and I would definitely resub if it was a PvE game.
EVE - I play for the PvP, whether I'm actively looking for it or just knowing that when I'm hauling those 50 Rifters to lucrative locations there both the overall risk that drove the price up to begin with and the immediate risk of possibly losing it all as I deliver them. I wouldn't paly the game without PVP.
AoC - can take it or leave it, but the fact that it's zero-risk and almost gauranteed gain makes it a nice diversion now and then.
Puzzle Pirates - I would never have lasted a week without PvP in that game, let alone 6 years.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I honestly doubt it, I was brought into MMO's via FFXI, and since i've played just about every wow + wow clone out there, and I really enjoy the teamwork that is PVE.
I really think that if i'm going to play PVP its going to be on a real PVP type game, like MW2.
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It's a non issue.
PvP is not important in a MMO, at all.
MMOs are naturally made to be PvE friendly since they are an extension of single players RPGs
In fact PvP and PVE should be always separate in MMOs, that's what causes the most aggravation within their communities
PvE players do not get on with PvP players and vice versa.
The reason is simple if you balance the game more on the PvE aspect the PvPers will whine, if you do the opposite, the PvErs will complaint.
Ever wondered while recently all MMO forums are just full of complaints, and generally the communities stink?
That's the simple answer.
Personally I am praying that someone will make another full PvE game like EQ
I already play an exellent OPvP game, Darkfall, I just need a full PvE game now.
Yes I like hardcore PvP as much as hardcore PvE, but I hate PvE and PvP together in the same game.
That's a broken formula which works only for WoW.
The two main roots of MMOs are MUDs and PnP games, neither of which were single-player experiences.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
PVE is just too easy in my opinion: there is very little skill in it. Every situation is easily controllable and predictable, and the AI is always pathetic. Even when it is "hard" it is just a situation of battling something "bigger and badder" rather than smarter and more subtle.
I think PVE is fine as a way to tell a story, or to provide some practice or side distractions to kill time and do some mini-games or farming for the obsessive compulsive out there. But I've been gaming so many years now that computer AI just never presents any real challenge or excitement for me. It is always the case of just figuring out the formula to beat it, and the lack of satisfaction of beating a crappy AI just isn't there for me.
If an MMO doesn't have decent PVP element, I will most definately pass on it unless the story is just fantastic...
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
Back when I first started playing EQ I did not care that there wasn't any PvP, but after I got a taste of it in SWG I don't think I can go back to playing a purely PvE game. I love great PvE content like EQ and VG had and would most likely spend quite a bit more time doing PvE if a newer MMO would go back to quality, challenging PvE that wasn't instanced. Unfortunately, most games are coming out with casual friendly PvE so we have to turn to PvP to find a challenge.
That's funny, cause if I see an mmorpg without PvP I will probably not play it.
To me there's no point playing an online game with others and not allow the full range of actions and reactions from other players.
I.e. in WoW the most interaction I have is with people I cannot PvP with - the friendly faction which I teamed with - , but I'm pretty sure I would be in alot more PvP with them than the enemy faction, simply because of player/character behaviour, if WoW was free-for-all PvP.
If I wanted pure PvE I'd probably play some single player instead, to me it's not an accomplishment to kill some NPC boss that is controlled by a computer, in comparison to beating a player in PvP. Even though some players are bad at PvP they will still have the potential to be alot less predictable than an NPC.
I like PvP, but usually do it in online shooters. I don't like the gear/level dependecy in most MMORPG PvP. I also can't stand waiting in a queue. I'm fine with PvE only in MMORPGs. That being said, I've been waiting on some very good world PvP since DAoC. There is a sweet spot where numbers counteract the gear/level dependency without turning into a zergfest, in my opinion. When your team is working together, it doesn't matter as much if your stats or skillset is a bit lacking. Planetside is another good example of this.
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I'd tend to agree. Almost every mmorpg I see or poll I see with regard to PvP in a general sense, there is at least half of participants that want it and dont, and same goes for PvE. But PvE game-play is easy to develop, static and predictable, which is why it is so easy to appease to that group. They'll pay $15/month for a lobby-system single-player RPG, but I tend to think that the mass exodus you see always from these themepark games are the PvEvP enthusiasts that dont by the shallow nature in which PvP is baked into a PvE game.
Hmmm I guess in my opinion, as far as MMO's are concerned its the same way with PVP, I mean in WoW, it comes down to: who has the best gear/highest level, I mean this is 100% the case in FFA PVP, but even in wow's battlegrounds it comes down to who has the best stats, So I don't see how its really..."hard". I mean either I have the best gear...or he does.
Where-as a true PVP game like halo, everyone has the same gear, and it comes down to who is fastest, best aim...and so on (unless you play the halo we have today and its a bunch of 13 year olds who cheat)...but I digress.
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sure PVE is really fun most of the time. But, why do you play PVE? Yes your right, to be better in PVP.
Its an ecvation, you can take away PVE at the cost of more fun but you can never take away PVP. Not if I should play the game howhever.
Shooters are great eSports and I spend a lot of my time there these days since the MMO scene is so bad right now, especially regarding PVP. It is great having a 100% level playing field in FPSers no doubt with very high twitch as well as tactical skill required (ignoring hackers of course, but on xbox360 most games other than MW2 are relatively hack free).
But MMOs provide a fun and different type of tactical skill as well (with very little twitch skill, which I enjoy as a change of pace from shooters sometimes). Sure there is an advantage to be had by gear, but two things make that acceptable to me:
1) You can put in the time/effort to improve your gear in most MMOs that are truly achievement based. This is one of the RPG aspects of MMOs that I like: effort means advantage. Now if it is pay-to-win or "whoever is subscribed longer" gets the advantage then I refuse to play it because that is just BS
2) Tactical skill quite frequently trumps gear advantages, especially if you are dedicated to perfecting your game. I know to those that don't PVP much it doesn't seem that way, as probably the few times you tried it out it was like wtfpwn time and you just need to develop your game. But there is no magic formula for beating PVP, as once a known winning formula is found the smart PVPers figure out in a way to counteract it. That is what makes PVP so epic. As opposed to PVE where once a boss is figured out it is LOL-easy forever more.
But there are those that prefer PVE and I'm not really trying to diss them, to each their own. And I guess I kind of understand the allure of everybody timing their game to the script like a ballet or something. But to me that is lifeless gameplay. Man versus electrons. And electrons don't cry bloody-murder and ragequit when you take them down like real people often do: LOL.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
Single player RPGs were the other root of the genre whether you like it or not.
MUDs tended to be all over the place but PnP games were primarily designed for PvE. SInce I came into MMORPGs form a mainly PnP RPG background (prefered strategy and adventure video games) I see PvP as purely an addon to MMORPGs and focus on cooperation activities rather than competition.
Pure pve game??? Hell no.
I dont see the skill in following a string of commands and doing repetitive actions to defeat a "hAAARDCOAAAR" raid or killing autoattck monsters that have less than 0 brain cells...
PvP at least requires some thinking, pve requires none, u have the information, you can write a script that can defeat a hardcoar Raid easily and if a predetermined script can do it there is no skill in it...(Well the only skill u need is to find ppl who dont fail...)(And no getting 100 pvp kills isnt really skillful either since any noob can kill 100 ppl if they play continiously..., the important think is how fast and ur own deaths)
Even the most dumb person can deafeat an Ai in time......
Minecraft for example is such a crappy game IMO, you are challenged by the game to make a golden cock xD and how you do that?? By wasting ages on repeatedly searching for gold, doing repetitive brainless actions and at the end, after you made your giant golden cock you are so proud...(That you wasted all that time, putting blocks one upon another and creating a shape that its soooooo hard to even imagine how you are going to build it)[Because of that minecraft is a succesfful game NOT GOOD!]
Gamers(not ppl who play games) should stop watching in the FUTURE, the HOPE, that you will sometime gain something and instead should think of NOW! Having hope or wanting to defeat a time consuming repetitive challenge is what crappy games do to make players stay in it...
In the original Guild Wars Prophecies, you could finish the campaign in about a 7-14 days (including doing most of the stuff along the way). I played still for a year and a half after that. Good PvP really prolongs the lifespan of a game.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Personally I never PvP and could care less if a game has it or not. I did try it, and its not the way of implementation, its simply the fact that killing another player makes me feel bad. PvP generates drama, anger and hatred, thats why I hate it. Duelling is ok since its only for fun, but PvP where the loser does lose something (experience, gear, whatever) is not for me. I don't like to ruin other people's day.
PvE to me is like following a script to win. The same tactic will have the same result each time.
I wouldn't entertain a game without PvP.
That said, the game I'm playing right now needs more development on the PvP side of things. You prolly know the one I'm referring to, but there is no popular game right now that offers decent PvP so I'll wait and hope Trion gets the job done.
I see people raving about Darkfall, Mortal Online etc. but they're too 'niche' for most people and as a result have a relatively small population.
At the end of the day, people expect different things from their games/mmo's. I would bet it's 50/50 as to who wants PvP and who doesn't in the mmo world, but I bet there's not one developer out there who would hedge there bets on one or the other.
OK another 2 cents worth. I am a PvE centric player, only rarely tried PvP. That said I always want PvP in any MMO game I play for a common sense reason. The more PvE and PvP player that pay - play - and stay in my game help keep it going for all of us. Corp suits are happy and players are happy and that is a win win.
About PvP itself, I have noticed that the word 'meaningful' is applied in a lot in forum talk. I am not sure what that means since I rarely PvP so mabey someone can explain the use of that word. I make an assumption (dangerous) that PvP has more than a single meaning of player-vs-player. The critisizims (lots of 'i's in that word) I hear from PvP'ers on forums run a bewildering gamut from instancing to battlefield to warzones to safe areas to world free for all. Lots of different opinions especially on how PvP is set up and run. That area, by the way, I will leave to the PvP crowd, they know better what they want.
Just have both styles, optional and support them. PvE is easy to implement but more expensive and PvP is less expensive but harder to run. PvE players outnumber PvP players but we PvE players NEED those PvP players to help us keep the game going - and make money for the suits who can cut us all off in a second if they don't get what 'they' want.
lol early mmo's had alot of pvp so I don't know where you get you info. at...
But I will add that guilds that have atleast some pvp element to them seem to be closer then carebear clans =P
Name one amazing mmo that had zero pvp?
PvP wouldn't be necessary if NPC AI was more advanced. Maybe in the future we'll see AI so advanced that it rivals the best human players, but for now all we have for a challenge are other players.
Most of us PvP for the challenge involved.
The others who PvP just to beat up on other people need to see a therapist.
I personally play MMO's for PVE. If I want to play pvp I prefer a level playing field, a multi-player fps. Most MMO's seem to give an unfair advantage to the hardcores.
Chins
I agree with this very much. To me, there simply is no gratification in learning the forumlas to boss fights and raids and then executing them and winning. Especially the fact that I'm expected to do it over and over and over and over and over and over again, and I'm supposed to see that as "massive content"
I don't know about you (the readers) but, reading the instructions on how to install software, and then following them, and then having installed software is just not exciting. Following any pre-written instructions or procedures are just not as exciting as creating your own for any given situation.
There are some games, like FFXI, EQ, and even Aion which have pretty damn good pve content and/or mechanics that designed to offer the players an interesting experience in a group dynamic. Not so much,if at all, focused on the gear you're going for, or the graphics and animations of the boss you're fighting, but instead, focusing on offering a unique experience to each party you get into. It's hard to explain this, because it's a very well thought out mechanic Square Enix came up with for making PVE combat exciting and dynamic depending on the kind of players are in the group with you.
But I do know this: Standing around with 10-20 people all spamming buttons watching dps meters and bright color explosions with no rhyme or reason to the pacing, just "1,1,1,1,1,1,12,2,2,2,1,1,1,1,2,2,2,3,3,3,3,2,2,2,3,3,3,3,4,4,3,3" until the life bar of the big bad boss goes down to Zero hardly offers anything in the form of player input gratification.(yes, yes, TO ME)
Spell rotations. The very term screams "everyone can do the same thing and win. Go in there, press these buttons as fast as you can. If you don't win, someone was standing in the wrong spot during X phase." yawnnnnnnnn!!!
So, I do prefer PVP, considering there's no script... no procedure... no "this will happen EVERY time you encounter a player" mechanic. BUT that doesn't mean I think PVP should be what MMORPGs are about. On the contrary, I just wish MORE of them had better PVE mechanics, so that the PVP could be left to games that are better suited for them, such as games where people are on even playing fields. As much as I hate the mundane nature of the current standard of what PVE content consists of, I also am disheartened by the very nature of MMORPG PvP and how there's virtually no such thing as a "fair" fight. I enjoy uneven fights, especially when I'm the one with lower odds of winning. It's more gratifying to beat the odds, and less hurtful to lose to them. But I don't like how the games seem to promote players beating players simply because of the gear they've aquired, or the level difference, or any other attribute that isn't the players own ability to manipulate the character BETTER than their opponent. I would have never played Street Fighter if there was a chance that Ken vs Ken wasn't an even match, but instead, one of the Ken's had epic gear and laser beam goggles, and enchancted hadoken gems to increase crit chance on projectiles etc... It really just sounds like a handicap to keep players that would otherwise LOSE on top because of time played, and gear aquired. PVP battle outcomes really shouldn't be determined by anything else than player ability, and/or tactics.... and no, going for 'the best lewt' and 'best in slot gear' and 'highest dps weapon' is not a tactic, it's a crutch.
This is not a troll, flame, or anything else worth banning me over. It is simply my pure opinion, and I have a right to share it.
It's only important to people who like to pvp. And then you have all the flavors of that endeavor.
The problem here is that some pvp'ers, and especially some hard core pvp'ers (the key word to all of this is "some") don't get it. They just can't. It's as if they see the world solely through their eyes and judge everything from it. You know what? I'll add hardcore pve'ers to this as well. those who think all pvp'ers are psychopaths trying to work out why motther didn't love them and why they didn't have structure in their lives.
On one side there are pvp players who can't understand why pve players want to do pve becuase it's same old same old each time, predicable and doesn't get the blood pumping.
did they ever think that those people who do pve enjoy the more social and storied parts of these encounters? That they don't have to get their blood pumping at all? That a certain predictability is fine because that's not why they play. They play to just be in the world and to do things they wouldn't normally do in real life?
Conversely, some pve players don't understand that not every pvp player needs medication and is looking to "hurt" others because he feels disenfranchised in his own life.
Regardless, not every player is wired the same way and not every player is going to care about one thing or the other.
Just like some people love heavy metal and punk and very violent music and other people love new age or easy listening.
The problem with these games is that if they are going to have both pve and pvp then they need to take into account that not everyone is a hybrid player. Better to do one or the other really well than both poorly. Or make it so they do both well but don't force players to do one or the other.
for the record I just reupped in Aion a few days ago because I missed pvp.
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Imho, i believe people who feel better about themselves through repetitive grinding and skilless methods shouldnt feel better at all. And since most of them cant see it and think they are having "FUN" its a little annoying. Espcially those "HARCOAR" pvers who think they are awesome. I mean really feeling better for that is just .... Every time a player overcomes the challenge he feels better...
Pve is a nice technique for tutorials and story, challenges overcomed with repetitive mechanics are there only for money and should not make the user feel better, sadly big companies know that and like to put challenges like building a huge golden cock in minecraft(changes depending the person)...
PvP does the same, even though i dont quite like the idea of ppl feeling better about themselves through buyable means(trololol entertainment industry), pvp at least requires some skill, and thinking at some situations(when fighting actualy pvpers who know how to pvp and not kids who think pvp is cool and being a pvper is cooler)
Ai no matter how complex it becomes, no matter how many different tactics it can use and rolls a dice to have a different one each time it will alway be predictable and easily countered, no matter what. Expect if u one of those that see movies and believe machines will conquer earth or will have emotions...