Originally posted by Bladestrom Now If both players play longer then both of their skills will increase, the better player will increase faster, the gap will increase.
That depends...and isn't ultimately true.
However, you missed the point - time isn't deciding factor and determiner of your skill so 'excessive' dependency on time constraint related mechanics is undesirable.
Why people say its unfair that hardcore players get an advantage in games over casuals? well i would have thought since they spend more time in game, Weather it be pveing, pvping harvesting or the like. Of course Players who spend longer in game should definately reap more rewards then someone who plays a few hours a week. It seems illogical to me that casuals have equal benefits in a game as a hardcore player. For example, you have to people working the same job, but one works less hours, Should both employees be payed the same amount of money at the end of the week? Hell no.
/rant
First let me say that people wanting to get the same rewards by putting in less effort is ridiculous.
That said I think many of the people you are accusing of doing this, aren't. Of course I'm just guessing as you didn't bother to take the time to tell us exactly what games these people are complaining about.
From the various game forums I've seen what most people are bitching about is they are tired of seeing MMOs trying to keep players playing by the most lazy mechanic possible. Which is to just keep building Raid, BGs, and Heroic dungeons with new and hidious (and ultimatley pointless) gear grinds and not bother trying to improve the game in any other way. And in most cases these companies are the same asstards that set the unreal expectations of their players in the first place by allowing them to solo their way through the brunt of the game and then hit a brick wall at end game where they now have to find a group of people and put in a bunch of time to get that truly shiny shiny cool stuff.
Now, if on the flip side you are talking about hardcore FFA PVP games like Darkfall where it takes quite a bit of skill grinding to become PVP viable, all I can say to those who want easier game play is there are already enough easy mode games in the world, the door is that way. If you don't have what it takes to gut it out in such a world, then you shouldn't be there.
One caveat to those of us who like this kind of game play though and don't want the more casual crowd involved. The amount of people who are willing to put up with, or actually enjoy getting their faces stomped into the muck by unbeatable bullies for quite some time before they grow up big enough to bring some payback, is a fraction of those who actually play MMOs. If you want to keep your game pure and not make allowances for the more faint of heart gamer, or just gamers who have less free time to devote to gaming in general, then expect your game to remain a niche game, and stop crying that their style of games and number of members outshines yours by several million.
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
Nope, it doesn't. Two can spent same amount of time but each will reach different skill level.
I dont disagree with that. Now If both players play longer then both of their skills will increase, the better player will increase faster, the gap will increase.
Idd, but its quite easy to "max out" your skill in say WoW. There's only so much that can be done with say a shaman within the boundries of the class.
edit:
ALSO, I never meant that everyone should have everything regardless of time spent in the game. That would be kind of silly. But you're looking at it from an angle set by the industry, like WoW, where time spent in the game will allow you to "skill up" (by getting better gear) regardless if you actually learn a single god damn thing.
I would be quite happy with a system where gear matters less, and time spent in game would allow players to collect stuff that is just for show. You want to look cooler? Want that rare mount? Stuff like that.
Now If both players play longer then both of their skills will increase, the better player will increase faster, the gap will increase.
That depends...and isn't ultimately true.
However, you missed the point - time isn't deciding factor and determiner of your skill so 'excessive' dependency on time constraint related mechanics is undesirable.
I also did not say it was the deciding factor.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now If both players play longer then both of their skills will increase, the better player will increase faster, the gap will increase.
That depends...and isn't ultimately true.
However, you missed the point - time isn't deciding factor and determiner of your skill so 'excessive' dependency on time constraint related mechanics is undesirable.
I also did not say it was the deciding factor.
time is always a factor. if its use of a skill that determines the rate of stat rise, then the use is determined by button push /time. however,I agree that it really means nothing when it comes to time based attacks. one has to have good timing. :-)
To the caterpillar it is the end of the world, to the master, it is a butterfly.
What kind of hardcore are we talking about here? You seem to think that anyone who puts loads of time into a game is by default a good player, which ofc just isnt true.
The more time you spend on something, the more knowledge you get. I wouldent say that it makes you hardcore but it will give you the upper hand over people that spend less time on the same thing.
I really don't think that's anyone's argument, though. The time invested argument that people present has to do with level disparity and gear-dependent power. not knowledge gained.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
its about labelling. As an experiment take everything out of the equation appart from reward that progresses the player. If a casual player plays for 1 hour then they should get 1 hour's worth of 'reward' if they play 2 then they should get 2 hours with. That seems totally fair. now if a casual player does 20 hours in 1 week then being fair that player should get 20 hours worth of reward. There will be diminishing returns on the reward so it is not linear and the range is closer, but it should be fair. It does not work when someone says i want 40 hours of reward for playing 2 hours - and again, where is the fun in even doing this.
this doest just apply to mmorgs. look at anything - take sport. The top sportsman on average will practice more than the average player, time is a factor, its not the only factor but it cannot be ignored. Lol in fact, can you imagine what would happen if a 100 meter part time sprinter who was beaten in a race by a professional sprinter demanded to get a medal as well, because he doesnt have time to practice as much..
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Ok since I'm online and smack talk is valid, I'll proceed. Elitest jerk, first off I would have to demand everyone play expansively deep challenging games. I realise certain games appeal to differant people. What you arent going to do is convince me that this lack of depth and challenge is a standard. I've played through WOW to 80 a few times in order to stay in conctact with my cousin Garret. Narrow minded, yes and so is being a human being in the first person. The fact is what something is and challenging isn't something you can tag on WOW. Or the legions of games attempting to expound on their success. Economical, predictable and cheap rewards are it's hallmark. This is something that sells, but their is a large audience that enjoy paying for challenges. MMO is you and I feel like WOW is our Disneyland, our first monster hit theme park. So stick to the merry go round, I'm sure mom (BLIZZ) wont let you fall of the horsey. I on the other hand cant wait till six flags is built.
its about labelling. As an experiment take everything out of the equation appart from reward that progresses the player. If a casual player plays for 1 hour then they should get 1 hour's worth of 'reward' if they play 2 then they should get 2 hours with. That seems totally fair. now if a casual player does 20 hours in 1 week then being fair that player should get 20 hours worth of reward. There will be diminishing returns on the reward so it is not linear and the range is closer, but it should be fair. It does not work when someone says i want 40 hours of reward for playing 2 hours - and again, where is the fun in even doing this.
this doest just apply to mmorgs. look at anything - take sport. The top sportsman on average will practice more than the average player, time is a factor, its not the only factor but it cannot be ignored. Lol in fact, can you imagine what would happen if a 100 meter part time sprinter who was beaten in a race by a professional sprinter demanded to get a medal as well, because he doesnt have time to practice as much..
But where in the business of imagination, their crafty buggers. They think just because it's make believe, they can also make believe 200g into their account. Or make believe two hours of work is equal to six.
I think the problem a lot of people have is that MMORPGs are a continuation of CRPGs, which are of course a continuation of RPGs... which were invented as recently as last century.
So far as a game type goes, RPGs are unique and relatively recent. RPGs were the first kind of game to really focus heavily on the concept of 'virtual advancement'.
Before, games and sports either had no difference in power, just in ability (Like chess. Experts do not play with more pieces than amateurs. Everybody is given the exact same tools, and only ability serves to determine who is better or not)... or they had a difference in physical power, like a sport, where large amounts of practice would improve not just skill, but the body.
MMORPGs do not improve your body, and many of them only have skill as a minimal part of the improvement done. Most of the improvement in MMORPGs is purely virtual. Spending thousands of hours in one MMORPG is not going to improve a character in another MMORPG, nor is it going to improve a different character in the same MMORPG.
(If you don't believe that time spent and virtual improvement is more important than skill gained, answer me this question. Take your typical MMORPG. Spend 1000 hours improving your character. Let another person play the same game for 10 minutes, and have a character. Now switch characters. Who wins? If the person with 1000 hours of gameplay can win even with the 10 minute character, then the game is skill based, rather than virtual improvement based)
The human mind isn't really evolved to deal with the concept of 'virtual improvement'. Generally, improvement in every other sort of game, sport or competition is solidly based off of actual, physical improvements, whether it be in body, skill or whatever. Also, talent is more of a factor.
So many of the people who complain about people who play thousands of hours having an insurmountable advantage over new people aren't saying 'We should be equal in all ways', they're saying 'We should have the competition based off of talent and skill'. (Note, that's mostly from a PvP type of angle right there)
Also, there's the minor problem that in most MMORPGs, the actual gate of skill and talent is pretty low. Simply through sheer brute force of time spent, one can make an amazing character with all sorts of advantages, without showing much in the way of real improvement. So to people who disagree with that sort of design decision, they see all the time spent as being a CRUTCH, holding up inferior players and allowing them to compete simply through virtue of having less of a real life.
edit: TL:DR = People who play MMOs for thousands of hours aren't better players, they just have better characters.
I would be quite happy with a system where gear matters less, and time spent in game would allow players to collect stuff that is just for show. You want to look cooler? Want that rare mount? Stuff like that.
Ace Ventura Laugh (Meumeumeu). Paper items for all!!! So now your baseing things on the way they look rather then it's actual value. Further showing your obsession with the outer content. Dude don't get on my case because I want to dig into something. Just stick to WOW.
I think the problem a lot of people have is that MMORPGs are a continuation of CRPGs, which are of course a continuation of RPGs... which were invented as recently as last century.
So far as a game type goes, RPGs are unique and relatively recent. RPGs were the first kind of game to really focus heavily on the concept of 'virtual advancement'.
Before, games and sports either had no difference in power, just in ability (Like chess. Experts do not play with more pieces than amateurs. Everybody is given the exact same tools, and only ability serves to determine who is better or not)... or they had a difference in physical power, like a sport, where large amounts of practice would improve not just skill, but the body.
MMORPGs do not improve your body, and many of them only have skill as a minimal part of the improvement done. Most of the improvement in MMORPGs is purely virtual. Spending thousands of hours in one MMORPG is not going to improve a character in another MMORPG, nor is it going to improve a different character in the same MMORPG.
(If you don't believe that time spent and virtual improvement is more important than skill gained, answer me this question. Take your typical MMORPG. Spend 1000 hours improving your character. Let another person play the same game for 10 minutes, and have a character. Now switch characters. Who wins? If the person with 1000 hours of gameplay can win even with the 10 minute character, then the game is skill based, rather than virtual improvement based)
The human mind isn't really evolved to deal with the concept of 'virtual improvement'. Generally, improvement in every other sort of game, sport or competition is solidly based off of actual, physical improvements, whether it be in body, skill or whatever. Also, talent is more of a factor.
So many of the people who complain about people who play thousands of hours having an insurmountable advantage over new people aren't saying 'We should be equal in all ways', they're saying 'We should have the competition based off of talent and skill'. (Note, that's mostly from a PvP type of angle right there)
Also, there's the minor problem that in most MMORPGs, the actual gate of skill and talent is pretty low. Simply through sheer brute force of time spent, one can make an amazing character with all sorts of advantages, without showing much in the way of real improvement. So to people who disagree with that sort of design decision, they see all the time spent as being a CRUTCH, holding up inferior players and allowing them to compete simply through virtue of having less of a real life.
edit: TL:DR = People who play MMOs for thousands of hours aren't better players, they just have better characters.
Enjoyed your post immensly. I don't mean this in a rude tone but I'm frustrated. !!!ROLE PLAYING GAME!!! Requires the user to undertake a ROLE to which is a character. As we all know its called a character progression sheet, not a customer/user progression sheet. The characters are what we our building. My my mighty "Flame of the GODs" drops noob face and thats just how it is.
Guild wars has a model where gear is about looks rather than stats, works well and avoids problems where an instance gets over-geared. The development team also do not nerf the content over time. I was a long term high end WOW player and it did get hard to see beyond the gear/tier treadmill, but I have to say wow would have been very interesting place if each tier of gear did not increase stats, older content would still be playable etc. The problem with this however is that it wont work because of the aforementioned issues with nerfing.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
So my sword is the same as yours it just looks differant. If I have a chainsaw and you have a kitchen knife, where tradeing blows. Makes sence if your not baseing ideas in any reality including fantasy. I was actually interested in GW, never mind.
Enjoyed your post immensly. I don't mean this in a rude tone but I'm frustrated. !!!ROLE PLAYING GAME!!! Requires the user to undertake a ROLE to which is a character. As we all know its called a character progression sheet, not a customer/user progression sheet. The characters are what we our building. My my mighty "Flame of the GODs" drops noob face and thats just how it is.
Which is fine, if that's the way you see it, but it doesn't mean that people who want a less time-based competition system aren't just as competitive... or more.
Some people are competitive, but want it to be a contest of skill and talent, rather than a contest of virtual improvement.
It's not 'instant gratification', it's just that they're trying to have a different sort of contest. I mean, chess players are playing a contest of pure skill and talent, but nobody accuses them of being 'instant gratification noobs' (Except for stupid people. ... but I'm assuming there's no stupid people on MMORPG.com )
So my sword is the same as yours it just looks differant. If I have a chainsaw and you have a kitchen knife, where tradeing blows. Makes sence if your not baseing ideas in any reality including fantasy. I was actually interested in GW, never mind.
Nah. There's a difference between level 1 and level 20 equipment, but it maxes out at a certain point and doesn't go any higher. There's a difference between types of weapons (Sword, daggers, bow, etc...), and each type of weapon has a huge variety of types (Vampiric, fire, ice, + to attack in various ways...), but there's a ceiling of power you hit after a point in time, and nothing gets any higher, then it's all about variety and the advantages of different types (Obviously there's a fairly big difference between a two handed hammer and a two handed bow, for example).
There's actually hundreds of different kinds of ways a weapon can be top tier, it's just there's a certain ceiling they reach that you know they'll never exceed.
Enjoyed your post immensly. I don't mean this in a rude tone but I'm frustrated. !!!ROLE PLAYING GAME!!! Requires the user to undertake a ROLE to which is a character. As we all know its called a character progression sheet, not a customer/user progression sheet. The characters are what we our building. My my mighty "Flame of the GODs" drops noob face and thats just how it is.
Which is fine, if that's the way you see it, but it doesn't mean that people who want a less time-based competition system aren't just as competitive... or more.
Some people are competitive, but want it to be a contest of skill and talent, rather than a contest of virtual improvement.
It's not 'instant gratification', it's just that they're trying to have a different sort of contest. I mean, chess players are playing a contest of pure skill and talent, but nobody accuses them of being 'instant gratification noobs' (Except for stupid people. ... but I'm assuming there's no stupid people on MMORPG.com )
contest of virtual improvement., that describes it rather nicely
Re Skill, some of the actual skill factor in mmorgs are:
- Understanding the mechanics of fights,skills, other player skills,environment. This comes through experienced and research. Experience comes from previous game experience as well.
- having a user interface that is customised to get the most meaningfull information to you as fast as possible.
- Quick reactions. This is a mix of natural skill and rote learning.
- Key bound play, being able to do all your meaningfull activities within x milliseconds without thinking about it. To maintain high reactions you do need regular practice.
- Understanding the tools you use. Macros, customising pc to lower lag, etc, good keyboard, good mouse etc.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
I would be quite happy with a system where gear matters less, and time spent in game would allow players to collect stuff that is just for show. You want to look cooler? Want that rare mount? Stuff like that.
Ace Ventura Laugh (Meumeumeu). Paper items for all!!! So now your baseing things on the way they look rather then it's actual value. Further showing your obsession with the outer content. Dude don't get on my case because I want to dig into something. Just stick to WOW.
I have no idea what you're talking about
My first MMO was SWG and that is still my best experience. Ppl logged on because they actually enjoyed the community and being part of an awesome game world. There were no raids for epic gear, there were no tiers, no gating, no lockouts. Unless you were one of the lucky few who looted a rare weapon, you were sporting pretty much the same thing as everyone else and that made pvp quite fun. You didnt pvp for points, gear or anything other than bragging rights.
If you wanted however, you could farm and craft rare stuff like speeders ,armor and even weapons but these were mostly for looks. Ppl are so locked in stats progression, its an endless treadmill. Try broaden your view abit, try different games.
I can understand why lots of ppl want a game where more time spent = win, but as a skilled (and modest :P) player who cannot play 24/7 anymore, I personally dont want that
No idea why you reacted so strongly to what I wrote lol, you feel there's not enough games out there with gear progression (that is, stats progression), do you feel threatened in some way?
I'll give you something else then: to me its pretty obvious that these guys who feel that time spent in game should = win, these are the kind of guys that just cant win an even straight up fight. So they play 24/7 to max everything out and even then, they might still suck. Which is just sad really
edit: I dont play WoW anymore, and I quit SWG a short time after CU.
So my sword is the same as yours it just looks differant. If I have a chainsaw and you have a kitchen knife, where tradeing blows. Makes sence if your not baseing ideas in any reality including fantasy. I was actually interested in GW, never mind.
Nah. There's a difference between level 1 and level 20 equipment, but it maxes out at a certain point and doesn't go any higher. There's a difference between types of weapons (Sword, daggers, bow, etc...), and each type of weapon has a huge variety of types (Vampiric, fire, ice, + to attack in various ways...), but there's a ceiling of power you hit after a point in time, and nothing gets any higher, then it's all about variety and the advantages of different types (Obviously there's a fairly big difference between a two handed hammer and a two handed bow, for example).
There's actually hundreds of different kinds of ways a weapon can be top tier, it's just there's a certain ceiling they reach that you know they'll never exceed.
I picked up Gwars after wow this year, and I have to admit this model is a breath of fresh air. In wow you had to wear the latest gear of gear ultimately, regardless of looks, and that gear immediately became redundant when the next tier came along, and so on and so forth.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Looks like what is needed is affermative action for Casual gamers.
From now on all all raids must allocate at least 25% of raid slots to casuals. Lack of appropriate gear, wrong class, or lack of ability will not be allowed to be factor into allocation of casual only raid slots. Kicking casuals for being AFK, Late or rude will not be tolerated.
Loot must be offered to all casuals in the raid first (on a least played first choice etc. basis). All gold must be shared amongst casuals until their gold total reaches that of the other non casual raiders. Casual gamers will have a casual gamer loot option which automatically outweighs need selections made by non casuals.
Healers, Tanks and other guardian classes are required to protect casuals throughout the encounter - even at the cost of healer deaths (unless said healer is a casual).
Failure to comply with the above rules will result in a the raid leader and all non casual group leaders having their accounts banned. Casualism will not be tolerated.
.. Or we could just tell them to quit whining and play the damn game like everyone else if they want to get that phat loot.They pay the same as everyone else, so they get the same as everyone else - the capability to play. If others make more use of that capability to play that is their decision. It does not affecty our capability to play. The opportunity is what you pay for. How you use it is your look out.
And if anyone really thinks casuals need to be pandered to - can they please send me 1,000 gold plz as I can't be arsed, er I mean I'm too casual, to earn it....
Why people say its unfair that hardcore players get an advantage in games over casuals? well i would have thought since they spend more time in game, Weather it be pveing, pvping harvesting or the like. Of course Players who spend longer in game should definately reap more rewards then someone who plays a few hours a week. It seems illogical to me that casuals have equal benefits in a game as a hardcore player. For example, you have to people working the same job, but one works less hours, Should both employees be payed the same amount of money at the end of the week? Hell no.
/rant
I think it's largely a difference in perception of your character.
I view a character in an online game based on the HOURS PLAYED IN THE GAME.
From that point of view, there is no advantage in being hardcore, there is no disadvantage in being casual.
A 40 hour character is the same as all 40 hour characters.
You can play that 40 hours in one week.
Or, one hour a month, so that it takes 3 and a half years to accumulate 40 hours.
IMO, those characters are EQUAL. They are both 40 hour characters.
On the other hand, some people view online characters, in terms of REAL LIFE TIME.
They expect all real life one month characters to be the same, regardless of time played in the game.
If you played one hour, and I played 120 hours, we should both be the same, because our characters are ONE MONTH OLD IN REAL TIME.
Those two different players are never going to perceive the same thing.
I think it's largely a difference in perception of your character.
I view a character in an online game based on the HOURS PLAYED IN THE GAME.
From that point of view, there is no advantage in being hardcore, there is no disadvantage in being casual.
A 40 hour character is the same as all 40 hour characters.
You can play that 40 hours in one week.
Or, one hour a month, so that it takes 3 and a half years to accumulate 40 hours.
IMO, those characters are EQUAL. They are both 40 hour characters.
... and some people are just time limited, and can't spend 500 days worth of time in an MMORPG (I have a friend who sometime LAST year hit 500 days of gameplay in WoW. Days. Of GAMEPLAY.).
... so we're looking for a game with a relatively smaller ceiling for time, and a higher factor for skill and and talent.
Nothing wrong with that. Just means some people want a different thing out of their games. After all, even in oldschool P&P RPGs, most of them had a ceiling you could hit LONG before 100 days (As in 2400 hours) worth of tabletop playing.
The ceiling for 'time spent in game creating virtual improvements' in MMORPGs far exceeds any P&P RPG or CRPG. MMORPGs are the ultimate evolution of virtual improvement.
Comments
That depends...and isn't ultimately true.
However, you missed the point - time isn't deciding factor and determiner of your skill so 'excessive' dependency on time constraint related mechanics is undesirable.
First let me say that people wanting to get the same rewards by putting in less effort is ridiculous.
That said I think many of the people you are accusing of doing this, aren't. Of course I'm just guessing as you didn't bother to take the time to tell us exactly what games these people are complaining about.
From the various game forums I've seen what most people are bitching about is they are tired of seeing MMOs trying to keep players playing by the most lazy mechanic possible. Which is to just keep building Raid, BGs, and Heroic dungeons with new and hidious (and ultimatley pointless) gear grinds and not bother trying to improve the game in any other way. And in most cases these companies are the same asstards that set the unreal expectations of their players in the first place by allowing them to solo their way through the brunt of the game and then hit a brick wall at end game where they now have to find a group of people and put in a bunch of time to get that truly shiny shiny cool stuff.
Now, if on the flip side you are talking about hardcore FFA PVP games like Darkfall where it takes quite a bit of skill grinding to become PVP viable, all I can say to those who want easier game play is there are already enough easy mode games in the world, the door is that way. If you don't have what it takes to gut it out in such a world, then you shouldn't be there.
One caveat to those of us who like this kind of game play though and don't want the more casual crowd involved. The amount of people who are willing to put up with, or actually enjoy getting their faces stomped into the muck by unbeatable bullies for quite some time before they grow up big enough to bring some payback, is a fraction of those who actually play MMOs. If you want to keep your game pure and not make allowances for the more faint of heart gamer, or just gamers who have less free time to devote to gaming in general, then expect your game to remain a niche game, and stop crying that their style of games and number of members outshines yours by several million.
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
Idd, but its quite easy to "max out" your skill in say WoW. There's only so much that can be done with say a shaman within the boundries of the class.
edit:
ALSO, I never meant that everyone should have everything regardless of time spent in the game. That would be kind of silly. But you're looking at it from an angle set by the industry, like WoW, where time spent in the game will allow you to "skill up" (by getting better gear) regardless if you actually learn a single god damn thing.
I would be quite happy with a system where gear matters less, and time spent in game would allow players to collect stuff that is just for show. You want to look cooler? Want that rare mount? Stuff like that.
I also did not say it was the deciding factor.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
time is always a factor. if its use of a skill that determines the rate of stat rise, then the use is determined by button push /time. however,I agree that it really means nothing when it comes to time based attacks. one has to have good timing. :-)
To the caterpillar it is the end of the world, to the master, it is a butterfly.
The problem is, what will you replace the gear as game goal with?
gear has to be part of the game. You wear it. All cothes affect your agility and strength.
However, mmorpgs seem to think that we should live and die for better gear.
To the caterpillar it is the end of the world, to the master, it is a butterfly.
I really don't think that's anyone's argument, though. The time invested argument that people present has to do with level disparity and gear-dependent power. not knowledge gained.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
its about labelling. As an experiment take everything out of the equation appart from reward that progresses the player. If a casual player plays for 1 hour then they should get 1 hour's worth of 'reward' if they play 2 then they should get 2 hours with. That seems totally fair. now if a casual player does 20 hours in 1 week then being fair that player should get 20 hours worth of reward. There will be diminishing returns on the reward so it is not linear and the range is closer, but it should be fair. It does not work when someone says i want 40 hours of reward for playing 2 hours - and again, where is the fun in even doing this.
this doest just apply to mmorgs. look at anything - take sport. The top sportsman on average will practice more than the average player, time is a factor, its not the only factor but it cannot be ignored. Lol in fact, can you imagine what would happen if a 100 meter part time sprinter who was beaten in a race by a professional sprinter demanded to get a medal as well, because he doesnt have time to practice as much..
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Ok since I'm online and smack talk is valid, I'll proceed. Elitest jerk, first off I would have to demand everyone play expansively deep challenging games. I realise certain games appeal to differant people. What you arent going to do is convince me that this lack of depth and challenge is a standard. I've played through WOW to 80 a few times in order to stay in conctact with my cousin Garret. Narrow minded, yes and so is being a human being in the first person. The fact is what something is and challenging isn't something you can tag on WOW. Or the legions of games attempting to expound on their success. Economical, predictable and cheap rewards are it's hallmark. This is something that sells, but their is a large audience that enjoy paying for challenges. MMO is you and I feel like WOW is our Disneyland, our first monster hit theme park. So stick to the merry go round, I'm sure mom (BLIZZ) wont let you fall of the horsey. I on the other hand cant wait till six flags is built.
you*(new)
But where in the business of imagination, their crafty buggers. They think just because it's make believe, they can also make believe 200g into their account. Or make believe two hours of work is equal to six.
I think the problem a lot of people have is that MMORPGs are a continuation of CRPGs, which are of course a continuation of RPGs... which were invented as recently as last century.
So far as a game type goes, RPGs are unique and relatively recent. RPGs were the first kind of game to really focus heavily on the concept of 'virtual advancement'.
Before, games and sports either had no difference in power, just in ability (Like chess. Experts do not play with more pieces than amateurs. Everybody is given the exact same tools, and only ability serves to determine who is better or not)... or they had a difference in physical power, like a sport, where large amounts of practice would improve not just skill, but the body.
MMORPGs do not improve your body, and many of them only have skill as a minimal part of the improvement done. Most of the improvement in MMORPGs is purely virtual. Spending thousands of hours in one MMORPG is not going to improve a character in another MMORPG, nor is it going to improve a different character in the same MMORPG.
(If you don't believe that time spent and virtual improvement is more important than skill gained, answer me this question. Take your typical MMORPG. Spend 1000 hours improving your character. Let another person play the same game for 10 minutes, and have a character. Now switch characters. Who wins? If the person with 1000 hours of gameplay can win even with the 10 minute character, then the game is skill based, rather than virtual improvement based)
The human mind isn't really evolved to deal with the concept of 'virtual improvement'. Generally, improvement in every other sort of game, sport or competition is solidly based off of actual, physical improvements, whether it be in body, skill or whatever. Also, talent is more of a factor.
So many of the people who complain about people who play thousands of hours having an insurmountable advantage over new people aren't saying 'We should be equal in all ways', they're saying 'We should have the competition based off of talent and skill'. (Note, that's mostly from a PvP type of angle right there)
Also, there's the minor problem that in most MMORPGs, the actual gate of skill and talent is pretty low. Simply through sheer brute force of time spent, one can make an amazing character with all sorts of advantages, without showing much in the way of real improvement. So to people who disagree with that sort of design decision, they see all the time spent as being a CRUTCH, holding up inferior players and allowing them to compete simply through virtue of having less of a real life.
edit: TL:DR = People who play MMOs for thousands of hours aren't better players, they just have better characters.
Ace Ventura Laugh (Meumeumeu). Paper items for all!!! So now your baseing things on the way they look rather then it's actual value. Further showing your obsession with the outer content. Dude don't get on my case because I want to dig into something. Just stick to WOW.
Enjoyed your post immensly. I don't mean this in a rude tone but I'm frustrated. !!!ROLE PLAYING GAME!!! Requires the user to undertake a ROLE to which is a character. As we all know its called a character progression sheet, not a customer/user progression sheet. The characters are what we our building. My my mighty "Flame of the GODs" drops noob face and thats just how it is.
Guild wars has a model where gear is about looks rather than stats, works well and avoids problems where an instance gets over-geared. The development team also do not nerf the content over time. I was a long term high end WOW player and it did get hard to see beyond the gear/tier treadmill, but I have to say wow would have been very interesting place if each tier of gear did not increase stats, older content would still be playable etc. The problem with this however is that it wont work because of the aforementioned issues with nerfing.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
So my sword is the same as yours it just looks differant. If I have a chainsaw and you have a kitchen knife, where tradeing blows. Makes sence if your not baseing ideas in any reality including fantasy. I was actually interested in GW, never mind.
Which is fine, if that's the way you see it, but it doesn't mean that people who want a less time-based competition system aren't just as competitive... or more.
Some people are competitive, but want it to be a contest of skill and talent, rather than a contest of virtual improvement.
It's not 'instant gratification', it's just that they're trying to have a different sort of contest. I mean, chess players are playing a contest of pure skill and talent, but nobody accuses them of being 'instant gratification noobs' (Except for stupid people. ... but I'm assuming there's no stupid people on MMORPG.com
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Nah. There's a difference between level 1 and level 20 equipment, but it maxes out at a certain point and doesn't go any higher. There's a difference between types of weapons (Sword, daggers, bow, etc...), and each type of weapon has a huge variety of types (Vampiric, fire, ice, + to attack in various ways...), but there's a ceiling of power you hit after a point in time, and nothing gets any higher, then it's all about variety and the advantages of different types (Obviously there's a fairly big difference between a two handed hammer and a two handed bow, for example).
There's actually hundreds of different kinds of ways a weapon can be top tier, it's just there's a certain ceiling they reach that you know they'll never exceed.
contest of virtual improvement., that describes it rather nicely
Re Skill, some of the actual skill factor in mmorgs are:
- Understanding the mechanics of fights,skills, other player skills,environment. This comes through experienced and research. Experience comes from previous game experience as well.
- having a user interface that is customised to get the most meaningfull information to you as fast as possible.
- Quick reactions. This is a mix of natural skill and rote learning.
- Key bound play, being able to do all your meaningfull activities within x milliseconds without thinking about it. To maintain high reactions you do need regular practice.
- Understanding the tools you use. Macros, customising pc to lower lag, etc, good keyboard, good mouse etc.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
I have no idea what you're talking about
My first MMO was SWG and that is still my best experience. Ppl logged on because they actually enjoyed the community and being part of an awesome game world. There were no raids for epic gear, there were no tiers, no gating, no lockouts. Unless you were one of the lucky few who looted a rare weapon, you were sporting pretty much the same thing as everyone else and that made pvp quite fun. You didnt pvp for points, gear or anything other than bragging rights.
If you wanted however, you could farm and craft rare stuff like speeders ,armor and even weapons but these were mostly for looks. Ppl are so locked in stats progression, its an endless treadmill. Try broaden your view abit, try different games.
I can understand why lots of ppl want a game where more time spent = win, but as a skilled (and modest :P) player who cannot play 24/7 anymore, I personally dont want that
No idea why you reacted so strongly to what I wrote lol, you feel there's not enough games out there with gear progression (that is, stats progression), do you feel threatened in some way?
I'll give you something else then: to me its pretty obvious that these guys who feel that time spent in game should = win, these are the kind of guys that just cant win an even straight up fight. So they play 24/7 to max everything out and even then, they might still suck. Which is just sad really
edit: I dont play WoW anymore, and I quit SWG a short time after CU.
I picked up Gwars after wow this year, and I have to admit this model is a breath of fresh air. In wow you had to wear the latest gear of gear ultimately, regardless of looks, and that gear immediately became redundant when the next tier came along, and so on and so forth.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Looks like what is needed is affermative action for Casual gamers.
From now on all all raids must allocate at least 25% of raid slots to casuals. Lack of appropriate gear, wrong class, or lack of ability will not be allowed to be factor into allocation of casual only raid slots. Kicking casuals for being AFK, Late or rude will not be tolerated.
Loot must be offered to all casuals in the raid first (on a least played first choice etc. basis). All gold must be shared amongst casuals until their gold total reaches that of the other non casual raiders. Casual gamers will have a casual gamer loot option which automatically outweighs need selections made by non casuals.
Healers, Tanks and other guardian classes are required to protect casuals throughout the encounter - even at the cost of healer deaths (unless said healer is a casual).
Failure to comply with the above rules will result in a the raid leader and all non casual group leaders having their accounts banned. Casualism will not be tolerated.
.. Or we could just tell them to quit whining and play the damn game like everyone else if they want to get that phat loot.They pay the same as everyone else, so they get the same as everyone else - the capability to play. If others make more use of that capability to play that is their decision. It does not affecty our capability to play. The opportunity is what you pay for. How you use it is your look out.
And if anyone really thinks casuals need to be pandered to - can they please send me 1,000 gold plz as I can't be arsed, er I mean I'm too casual, to earn it....
Cheers
Stuntie.
I think it's largely a difference in perception of your character.
I view a character in an online game based on the HOURS PLAYED IN THE GAME.
From that point of view, there is no advantage in being hardcore, there is no disadvantage in being casual.
A 40 hour character is the same as all 40 hour characters.
You can play that 40 hours in one week.
Or, one hour a month, so that it takes 3 and a half years to accumulate 40 hours.
IMO, those characters are EQUAL. They are both 40 hour characters.
On the other hand, some people view online characters, in terms of REAL LIFE TIME.
They expect all real life one month characters to be the same, regardless of time played in the game.
If you played one hour, and I played 120 hours, we should both be the same, because our characters are ONE MONTH OLD IN REAL TIME.
Those two different players are never going to perceive the same thing.
... and some people are just time limited, and can't spend 500 days worth of time in an MMORPG (I have a friend who sometime LAST year hit 500 days of gameplay in WoW. Days. Of GAMEPLAY.).
... so we're looking for a game with a relatively smaller ceiling for time, and a higher factor for skill and and talent.
Nothing wrong with that. Just means some people want a different thing out of their games. After all, even in oldschool P&P RPGs, most of them had a ceiling you could hit LONG before 100 days (As in 2400 hours) worth of tabletop playing.
The ceiling for 'time spent in game creating virtual improvements' in MMORPGs far exceeds any P&P RPG or CRPG. MMORPGs are the ultimate evolution of virtual improvement.