Why is PVP so difficult to make?

Elikal · May 2011

As it is there is hardly any MMO these days without PVP. And the fashion of the era seems to be the (in)famous Battlegrounds. Or whatever they are called in other MMOs, they are still the same. I am just a casual PVPer, and I don't want to make PVP like an e-sports. I just want some casual, relaxing PVP now and then, when I am bored with questing. Only that this is impossible. Here is why.

I) Premade VS PUG

The main issue of BG PVP is, there is no system to guarantee you play against people "of your league". You see, in every real sports, people are measured and put against teams roughly their league of ability. Or in chess, you don't put Granny Kasuppke against Kasparov, but people of similar Elo-points against each other. When you are in a PUG and the other team is TS organized premade group, you'll KNOW you have zero chance. And it just sucks. Some people don't want to practice PVP like some e-sports types, they don't want to make it professional, they just want to have to relaxing fun in some PVP match, only they can't unless mere luck teams them with someone of their level. I know, it is one of the fundamental myths of our society, that everyone can learn everything. But reality is: thats bollocks. By and large abilities are given. You don't become a Mozart even with 10,000 hours of piano lessons. The boundaries of what you can become is quite tightly set by you midichlo... err you genetic code. Period. Some people are faster, react quicker, have better hand to eye coordination. End of story. People can train only so far, and the thing is: the other side does as well! So the difference of power between two sides doesn't diminish, because while YOU train, the others do as well! You just do NOT close the gap.

II Instanced BGs

Alas this is especially bad in instanced PVP, which these days is fashion. Every MMO wants to boast with "LOOK, we have PVP, too!" But it what sorry state most of this BG PVP is! While the difference between premade TS oriented groups and PUGs does play a role in open PVP, it is sort of lessend. But open warzones is something we have seen in few MMOs these days, and it just remains a fact that many would love some casual PVP, only BG don't really support that kind of casual PVPing, because it constantly gets dominated by pro PVPers.

III) Lolcoptering and no-autoface

I know it is the creed of all pro PVPers that they don't want autoface. From their interest it is understandable. They have a professional level of skill and they want to KEEP the gap between their professional skill and the casual PVPer. It is nothing but elitism. They don't want to be killed by some bloody casual PVPer. Now if you ever played a ranged char in PVP, you know that lolcoptering is the sure and easy way to kill you. Always. It just works wonders. Just hop and run around your target as if you were silly, and you'll win. I have defeated 3, 4 or even 5 people just with silly lolcoptering around them. Still, it is quite unfun, no matter what side I am on, because that's not a match anymore. Recently I see the same in Rift. If you play Mage or Marksman, all the enemy has to do is lolcopter around you. Yes, you have short stuns and push backs, but the reality is, unless you melee opponent is REALLY dense, it should be a 80% chance for him to kill you. YOU on the other hand have to TURN manually, you have to keep facing him while you attack AND somehow try to avoid his attacks, so while he just spams standard attacks until you are dead, you have to do three jobs at the same time. Trust me, I am a PVP sucker, and still I managed to mow down entire groups of Mages with my Assasin just by bunnyhopping like mad.

IV) Gear gap

As every system, of course PVPing has it's rewards. Usually PVP leads to PVP gear, and these days PVP usually is WAAAY above PVE or crafted gear. God knows why, but that's how it is. And what does that do? It does two things: a) again there is another gap created, those from the PUG which considerably lesser gear and those from e-sports PVPers who have tons of uber gear. And b) Thus the gap from point (I) is even more enforced. If you have tier3 gear, you can easily stand against 2 or 3 starter gear PVP gamers solo. Fact. Fun is something else. It just isn't about skill or training or coodination, it is about gear. The result is a cemented difference between two groups of people, pro PVPers and those who just seek casual fun.

The gripe here is multiplied even into PVE these days, since if many MMOs the PVP gear is even better in PVE than any quested or crafted gear. And that is where reality is just turned upside down! In any average MMO, only about 5-10% of the content of a game is PVP, usually 5-8 Battlegrounds. They are easy to make by a company. Cheap content. But these 5-10% of content with all it's issued drop better gear than the BIG CHUNK of most MMOs, the PVE questing content. And I think that is just not justified. Why should a PVP player get better gear for PVE over those who don't like to PVP at all, or play PVP so casually they never get any of this gear? Why should they get gear advantages EVEN in another sphere of games altogether??

V) Lack of third faction

Something I will never understand is, WHY did Warhammer not have a third faction? It was THE dominating reason why DAoC from the same people had such a great PVP. And they drop the ball. Two sided PVP always is sort of sterile and repetitive. You can't turn the tide against some overwhelming foe. But when you add a third faction, the situation is entirely different and a LOT of previously managed issues are diminished or solved. If you get that uber bully in super gear, you ally with the other faction and mow them down 2 vs 1. It is so endlessly more dynamic, that I am still aghast why so many MMOs failed to add a third faction.

VI) PVP Nerf backlash on PVE

It is the source of endless gripes for many. You know, for PVP you need a very delicate balance between powers and classes. So over months and years classes get nerfed, and powers which once were fun to use in PVE are sacrificed on the altar of PVP balance. IMVPO it would be better to add entirely different powers for PVP, because in PVE we want cool powers, we want to feel heroic and fight several enemies at the same time, to emphasis our feeling of being like the hero from a movie or some action anime. In PVP, that just doesn't apply, so the interests how to set powers in PVE and PVP are diametral opposites. And even though only about 10% at best in a MMO is PVP content, usually PVP is the margin for which skills are nerfed. I hear GW2 is supposed to give people entirely different sets for PVP, and I can only applaud this idea.

There is just a plethora more issues why PVP just often isn't fun for anyone who just wants to do some casual PVP for the fun of it. There are just too many obstacles: the elite PVPers with TS, the gear gap asf. Especially the WOW-is Battlegrounds are IMVPO the bane of good PVP. They are for said reasons absurd constructions, but alas every other MMO blindly copied this idea, and most companies just add some figleaf PVP instances, hastily crafterd together in some long afternoon and the result is equally disheartning. So we must still wait for other companies to make it better, it seems.

Disdena · May 2011

I can give you a much much shorter explanation. PvP is so difficult to make because people have very different ideas of what a "good, fun PvP experience" is, and by the very nature of player vs. player gameplay, those people will end up not just encountering and influencing one another but directly opposing one another.

Deathofsage · May 2011

"Balance Balance Balance!!!" cried the people.

People want skill to be what matters. Skill and only skill but when you have two different things, one will always be just a little bit better, one will always be at least a little bit easier. The problem increases exponentially in games where people want 10, 20, 32 different things.

People want to play what they think is fun and do not want the things other people think are fun to be more powerful, even if it is just a counterclass scenarior (Prior to a nerf, Warriors in WoW were a great counter to mages. One single nerf turned the situation around and gave mages no true counterclass).

When I played FFXI, I used the game's cheap pvp to duel some friends and we had so much fun. I thought I wanted a game with real pvp.

Now that I've played a few games with real PVP I've come to appreciate games that don't care about PVP. PVP is "not fair" and leads to nerf after buff after nerf affecting pvp battles and pve encounters.

"Ohmigod, tanks are hard to kill, and that's not fair."

Elikal · May 2011

Eherm... only half related.

stayontarget · May 2011

I don't know why people get so bent out of shape when they get PKed, sometimes they act like it's the end of the world.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBsKIVFUSbU&feature=channel_video_title

~remember it's only content~

Herodes · May 2011

V) Lack of third faction
Something I will never understand is, WHY did Warhammer not have a third faction? It was THE dominating reason why DAoC from the same people had such a great PVP. And they drop the ball. Two sided PVP always is sort of sterile and repetitive. You can't turn the tide against some overwhelming foe. But when you add a third faction, the situation is entirely different and a LOT of previously managed issues are diminished or solved. If you get that uber bully in super gear, you ally with the other faction and mow them down 2 vs 1. It is so endlessly more dynamic, that I am still aghast why so many MMOs failed to add a third faction.

To be honest from my experience this only happened in the beginning of DAoC, perhaps in the heydays. But when the Classic-Ger server opened, Hibernia and Midgard were the strongest factions and all the battles happened in the underpopulated realm of Albion.
I really don´t know, how the MMO-community acts today.

Azzataky · May 2011

So far what I've experienced in PvP its like this - you want more different classes - less balanced, you want almost the same skills for all classes - more balanced. But realy best way of PvP so far has Guild Wars imo. You need to choose some skills so you cant be against everything. But in games where you can use all your skills is just gona win more "overpowered" (OP) class, unless the one playing it is a "noob". 1v1 PvP mostly sux so thats why its better to do it group PvP. I hate kd wars in GW or spaming eles but kd war could be deleted from battle by blind and ele by mesmer.

Thats why I think its so amazing in GW, because there is no trying to do everyone able to compete against everyone. You just need to do great team to stay alive and kill the enemy. And in team is always better chance to balance the result. And thats same for every MMO I played. Lineage 2 - I played swordsinger, 1v1 sux as hell but in team its realy great class, also EvE has good "PvP" system, bigger ship doesnt mean win because you have problems to hit smaller ship etc.

But what is realy most important for PvP is just one thing, get used to die a lot. Thats only way how you can learn PvP and PvP will be never balanced. Even in games like Counter Strike is a luck, in MMOs you have criticals so its again about luck a bit. PvPers who whine a lot about something being OP are not PvPers, unless its realy crazy OP.

I think PvP is mostly balanced, its just about your skill and also most important thing imo about PvP in every game is.... to know your enemy. If you know your enemy you can avoid his strong spells you can reflect them whatever. So my advice is - if some class is pissing you off, make that class and try some PvP and lrn from that - you can see what you use against class which is your main, so you know what is probably going to use that class against you or you can see what is your main class characters using against you so you can use it too.

P.S. Good PvPer is dying a lot!

Loktofeit · May 2011

Originally posted by Disdena
I can give you a much much shorter explanation. PvP is so difficult to make because people have very different ideas of what a "good, fun PvP experience" is, and by the very nature of player vs. player gameplay, those people will end up not just encountering and influencing one another but directly opposing one another.

^-- Le This.

Zandora2018 · May 2011

Well it not really hard to make a good PvP game. They have a ton of good games all caleed FPS.

Now in the MMO world of PvP is well ........ BALANCE

you have Tanks, DPS , Range DPS , Healers so Balace is key and will never make a fun PvP game sadly.

Haegemon · May 2011

Originally posted by Zandora2018
Well it not really hard to make a good PvP game. They have a ton of good games all caleed FPS.

This. Though I'd also add RTS games to the mix.

When you have RPG-stat systems being a heavy-handed controller in how a fight goes, the PvP will always suffer.

In every good FPS and RTS game, the PvP is primarily driven by the players capability to perform to that needed level.

In an MMO, because the classes/combat can have such a wide range, to many stats/systems are added to take player-capability out of the equation in favor of finding some formulaic answer.

IMHO, If you fat-finger your way through gaming, your characters actions should be reflecting that, and never allow you to be super-nimble-ninja man.

But, once you start enabling EVERYONE who plays, regardless of playstyle up to and including watonly bad gameplay, to live out any possible archtype-gameplay fantasy, then the stats will muddle it all down, and everything begins to feel irrellevant.

All that, and in far to many places, MMO's still feel like they're clinging to the dying, archaeic roots of turn-based games.

If the combat is slow enough that you're still talking in guild chat no problem while mid-fight, it needs to rebuild itself and actually be real-time.

Malcanis · May 2011

Because people have been trained by single player games to expect to usually win.

Azzataky · May 2011

Originally posted by Malcanis
Because people have been trained by single player games to expect to usually win.

Lol you just ended whole topic. :P Thats probably first problem here, its so true. But I think its even new MMOs, in older MMOs you need to play more to do something and even PvE was harder I think. At least I started in Ragnarok online and it was loong time to the end.

Toxicmoon · May 2011

Can be done, but the amount of testing and design take much longer than PVE. Thus every mmo puts the product out once PVE content is in good shape. From there each and every mmo will focus most of their time rebalancing PVE, correcting bugs and adding more content. PVP balances being last priority as proved by the massive track record (why classes in all games maybe over powered for a long stretch of time).

Any game can diversify with a team just for PVP content balancing but it’s not worth the effort despite player base complaints. Many of the logistics of PVP changes carrying over to PVE. Which point the easy fix get out of jail free card is to con the phrase “ PVP is not balanced for one vs one combat”. That way PVE content is in-scope of what they want while giving you the finger on the PVP content, to save a headache and lots of money as PVE at this time still has more player base vs PVP players.

Every game I’ve notice like to package PVE and PVP together on rule set, stats and abilities. If you had 2 modes, PVE and PVP, PVP being capped on each stat and level and class. Without gear boosting the damage, would make it consistent and easier to see what adjustments need to be made. Downside would less flavorful as no matter how much time you invest on your gear you’ll do the same damage in PVP as someone naked of the same class. I think it’s worth the sacrifice, but I’m the minority opinion on that one for sure.

Be nice if there was a game that considered PVP first, PVE second. There was one game I believe that was designed like that called Darkfall. But at the time it didn’t provide a demo (I won’t buy until they let me try). Now there’s a free trail for it but after watching a few youtube videos of it, looks like a first person shooter as everyone just runs around with a bow or wand, ehh.. Not for me.

Elikal · May 2011

Originally posted by Malcanis
Because people have been trained by single player games to expect to usually win.

How great it must be to see everything from such a simple perspective. Why don't you go and solve climate change, world starvation, war on terror and economy crisis while you are so enlightened?

People do not starve. They have the wrong expectations. Problem solved. Why did *I* not come to such a wonderful solution?

You know, I took days to think about the topic, I wrote 45 minutes a lengthy text trying to cover it from various angles, and you just STOMP over it. It's always so refreshing to see people with sarcastic one-liners coming into a serious debate and just with a heart warming belly laugh make all approaches to make an adult, civilized, meaningful conversation void. Congratulations, Sir!

Malcanis · May 2011

Glad to have been of help. Nevertheless, I stand by my point. People dont like losing; they play games to have fun; therefore they prefer to play games where they dont lose much. QED.

Obviously it's a generalisation, but one that is substantially true. Gamers have their "expectation of winning" calibration tremendously distorted by games which constantly tell them that they are the special uniqie hero, and which always let you win in the end. This is all fine and good until they run into online PvP with other people with exactly the same distorted expectation.

It's less of a problem with online FPS games, since there is much less variation in character strength and you dont have the additional complication of accumulative character ability, but even then people whine about rockets vs railguns or whatever.

A lot of people have a very big problem accepting that someone else is just a better player than they are. This will always be a problem when it comes to "balancing" PvP.

There: now I have said exactly the same thing as my original post but in a lot more ~words~. Let happiness abound!

Toxicmoon · May 2011

I agree with you Malganis, flavor of the month most powerful class get over run once players learn of its strength for that same reason, as you said they don't like loosing.

One thing that would help and everyone will hate me for this idea, but.. Removing gear bonuses out of it. Make everyone the same strength. But in-turn people would loose more often as they don't have that uber raid gear to back them up, increasing the problem of not liking to loose. Rather then improve at the class, job, or role would just end in a flame war with Devs until it's "fixed".

Can't really address the problem unless you fix it, but if you fix it more people will be unhappy, catch 22 situation.

Loktofeit · May 2011

Originally posted by Malcanis
Glad to have been of help. Nevertheless, I stand by my point. People dont like losing; they play games to have fun; therefore they prefer to play games where they dont lose much. QED.

Obviously it's a generalisation, but one that is substantially true. Gamers have their "expectation of winning" calibration tremendously distorted by games which constantly tell them that they are the special uniqie hero, and which always let you win in the end. This is all fine and good until they run into online PvP with other people with exactly the same distorted expectation.

It's less of a problem with online FPS games, since there is much less variation in character strength and you dont have the additional complication of accumulative character ability, but even then people whine about rockets vs railguns or whatever.

A lot of people have a very big problem accepting that someone else is just a better player than they are. This will always be a problem when it comes to "balancing" PvP.

There: now I have said exactly the same thing as my original post but in a lot more ~words~. Let happiness abound!

I agree with Malcanis here. MMOs are time-invested progression. The more time you invest, the higher level you are and the more gear you can acquire. Most MMO content is deisgned for people to get to the end, not for people to try to get to the end or even to figure out how to get to the end. Of course, your hardcore raider will reply to that with a list of dungeon acronyms, citing their supposed mystery and difficulty, forgetting that such hurdles only apply to either the first group in or those who don't know how to use Google.

If the progression system of MMOs were all done like Puzzle Pirates - advancement is based on player skill improvement - most MMO gamers simply wouldn't play them. This all leads back to Dsdena's point about how 'good' PVP means something different to everyone and, like with anything else in life, a person's definition of a good design is usually one that is most in line with their assets or abilities.

Malcanis · May 2011

Originally posted by Loktofeit

I agree with Malcanis here.

I wonder if you really do. Because my opinion of such people is... somewhat unforgiving.

Cards on the table here: I kind of suck at PvP. But in the games I have played, I have put the effort in to learn the RoE, investigated and practiced the niches I can do well at and made myself useful (if not excellent) in one of the most unforgiving MMO environments out there. If I can survive in it, most anyone can. So I have very little sympathy for anyone claiming special treatment or demanding dev-based protection. Put some back into it and HTFU, say I.

fivoroth · May 2011

I would say there are several MMOs which do a pretty good job at designing their PvP. GW seems to be the most balanced one. WoW arenas also are pretty balanced at equal gear levels.

Arenas (no, they are not battlegrounds) are the place to go for competitive play. But it seems that you don't like competitive play which is fine but that doesn't make it broken.

But for me MMOs are a joke when it comes to competitive play. I can always have my Starcraft fix which requires a lot more skill and certainly is more balanced than any MMO out there ^^^

Serenex · May 2011

PvP is hard to make after PVE. When you're playing as a mage, you dont want to be one shotting things all the time. When they try to balance that, all the classes are seperated from each other. A tank can surely take more damage, but in pvp can he do enough damage? No, this is why you need a game with no roles like Gw2.

Sovrath · May 2011

Originally posted by Disdena
I can give you a much much shorter explanation. PvP is so difficult to make because people have very different ideas of what a "good, fun PvP experience" is, and by the very nature of player vs. player gameplay, those people will end up not just encountering and influencing one another but directly opposing one another.

probably this.

Loktofeit · May 2011

Originally posted by Malcanis

Originally posted by Loktofeit

I agree with Malcanis here.

I wonder if you really do. Because my opinion of such people is... somewhat unforgiving.

Cards on the table here: I kind of suck at PvP. But in the games I have played, I have put the effort in to learn the RoE, investigated and practiced the niches I can do well at and made myself useful (if not excellent) in one of the most unforgiving MMO environments out there. If I can survive in it, most anyone can. So I have very little sympathy for anyone claiming special treatment or demanding dev-based protection. Put some back into it and HTFU, say I.

Still agree with you. I'm perfectly fine knowing I'm winning only 1 out of 10 battles in low sec, and I look forward to when I improve enoguh to change that to 2 out of 10; I don't expect or wat game changes to help inflate my track record. I won't PVP in WOW or any other gear-dependent time-invested system, as I simply have neitehr the time nor desire to jump through the game's hoops to be competitive there. I don't fault the system for it and I would never wish the game desing to change to accommodate me. In Puzzle PIrates, I'm a Master at Swordfighting and Able at Rumbles. I'm comfortable with that.

Elikal · May 2011

Originally posted by Malcanis
Glad to have been of help. Nevertheless, I stand by my point. People dont like losing; they play games to have fun; therefore they prefer to play games where they dont lose much. QED.

Obviously it's a generalisation, but one that is substantially true. Gamers have their "expectation of winning" calibration tremendously distorted by games which constantly tell them that they are the special uniqie hero, and which always let you win in the end. This is all fine and good until they run into online PvP with other people with exactly the same distorted expectation.

It's less of a problem with online FPS games, since there is much less variation in character strength and you dont have the additional complication of accumulative character ability, but even then people whine about rockets vs railguns or whatever.

A lot of people have a very big problem accepting that someone else is just a better player than they are. This will always be a problem when it comes to "balancing" PvP.

There: now I have said exactly the same thing as my original post but in a lot more ~words~. Let happiness abound!

You know (now that you have given a serious answer), I still think it is somewhat off the point. While there sure is a grain of truth in it. We all hate to lose. We all love the be hero in games. But, we can accept to lose, when we have the feeling overall things are fair and overall I lose as much as I win, netto. So when I play 100 matches, and I lose 80 of them with PUG, something just IS wrong with the system favoring a certain playstyle over my own.

There are a few totally different things wrong in PVP, see my post. (Like the dull repetitveness of instanced BG versus open RvR with 3 factions, just to remind you of one.)

Larsa · May 2011

Well, PvP games aren't really that hard to make, just make an FPS, plenty of them around.

Even PvP in MMORPGs isn't hard to make, just look at pre-ToA DAoC. Do not even try to balance it for 1 vs 1 PvP, it's pointless because any FPS can do that better, balance it for group play instead, and have groups of at least 6 players (better 8 to 10).

Equally, do not make any instanced PvP, nothing with equal numbers of players on each side, that way your pre-made elite group always has a chance to get obliterated by a passing zerg of 40 mediocre players. Priceless!

Make sure you get no rewards in form of items from PvP, otherwise people will just repeatedly kill each other.

Make sure you cannot communicate with members of the other realms.

Make 3 realms.

Did I already mention DAoC?

Axehilt · May 2011

Originally posted by Malcanis
Because people have been trained by single player games to expect to usually win.

Wow, what a brutally incorrect assumption.

Good PVP is composed mostly of two types of players, neither of who wants to "usually win":

PVP Purists want to win every time they outplay their opponent. Any element which isn't player skill dilutes the experience and ruins it. Skill in games (in everything, really) is a combination of (A) making the right decision (knowledge/strategy/tactics) and (B) executing that decision (twitch/control manipulation.) Common non-skill elements being things like Progression and Population (uneven teams.) A secondary benefit to combat being relatively balanced is that better theatrics result: battles are entertaining to watch because they frequently come right down to the wire.
Casual PVPers don't mind a diluted experience, especially when it amplifies world simulation (and enables features like territorial control which have a harder time existing in a Pure PVP game.) These players also seem not to mind that battles are won before they're fought (partially because it's world simulation, and less a game.) They don't mind winning without a strong need for player skill.

The purists don't want to "usually win". They only want to win every time they outplayed their opponent. In a casual PVP game they can outplay their opponents but still be defeated by arbitrary things which happened outside of the fight itself (most frequently "We brought more friends, so we won" or "We've played longer, so we won".)

Quirhid · May 2011

Balance is something few games have done right and the primary requirement for that is the developers' expertise in their own game. No blindly listening to players, but doing your own research and making your own solutions. The dev also needs to be brutal with their adjustments to balance. Let the players cry, they always do no matter what you do.

Good balance (or equal imbalance) is one of the keys to a solid PvP.

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