Yes they do and there are more nurses than men who are women too. As the profession of doctor became open to them they moved heavily into that as well. That does not mean they have to heal in a MMO and many don't.
You might concur from this that women are more nurturing types. Maybe they are? Basing that on a couple of pieces of evidence is hardly conclusive though. More importantly does it matter?
It is amusing that we have women coming onto the thread to rant about this. They do seem to have a problem talking about gender in a relaxed way. If I was to say the vast majority of road labourers were men do you think guys would post on here up in arms? If I was to go on and infer that it indicated that men were mentally inferior do you think any man would do more than laugh?
Get over yourselves girls, your gender is not that important.
I would say that I have seen more girls play as healers, but I have seen more healers as men over all, because men dominate the gaming scene. (dominate = populate)
And while I may have seen many girls play as healers, I have only met a hand full that were actually any good. I am all for people of any sex, race, whatever, playing games... just don't play with me, because you more than likely suck at the game and will probably get the rest of us killed.
Edit:
Just thought of this - More men play as healers because of population, but I would say more men also play as FEMALE healers. Just a strange thought...
... Just thought of this - More men play as healers because of population, but I would say more men also play as FEMALE healers. Just a strange thought...
Completely true! I hate healing, myself. And I'd say about 65% of healing classes in game are female toons. Not fact, just me roughing it.
... Just thought of this - More men play as healers because of population, but I would say more men also play as FEMALE healers. Just a strange thought...
Completely true! I hate healing, myself. And I'd say about 65% of healing classes in game are female toons. Not fact, just me roughing it.
Well i figured if i have to look at someone's ass for 2+ hours a day when playing a MMO, it is still better if i look at female ass, that's why i rolled a female.
I think as early in the MMO scene women took the healing roles because they could stand back heal and I think they enjoyed the accomplishment more of healing/casting than the melee. I think now you are seeing a new breed of female players who are used to playing games. So I think that the healing is more evenly spread than it was before. I think women are just as likely to pick a dps now as they are a healer.
Originally posted by Scot Yes they do and there are more nurses than men who are women too. As the profession of doctor became open to them they moved heavily into that as well. That does not mean they have to heal in a MMO and many don't. You might concur from this that women are more nurturing types. Maybe they are? Basing that on a couple of pieces of evidence is hardly conclusive though. More importantly does it matter? It is amusing that we have women coming onto the thread to rant about this. They do seem to have a problem talking about gender in a relaxed way. If I was to say the vast majority of road labourers were men do you think guys would post on here up in arms? If I was to go on and infer that it indicated that men were mentally inferior do you think any man would do more than laugh? Get over yourselves girls, your gender is not that important.
I agree with you in principle. Gender doesn't matter when compared to whole person.
But, while I don't feel like I had been very riled up about this issue, you might not be so dismissive if you lived in a world where you are repeatedly marginalised by questions just like this OP. Even today, as Gobla so likes to point out, women are not even allowed into combat positions, forget about special ops type positions. Add to that that women are still paid less than men in the same position.
I'm not saying men aren't stereotyped, usually as stoic and unemotional, not to mention not being able to wear terribly varied clothing. But they just don't understand what it is like. And they never will.
So no, gender isn't and shouldn't be a factor in almost anything, but it will remain one as long as we have things like this being asked, and most of the men here (serving at least as a cross-section of online gamers) pretty much assuming it's true, for one manufactured reason or another, it will continue to be an issue. Sexism exists, and will continue to so long as we let it.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
Why do people always try to turn things types of topics into a hyper intellectual game to show off that they are educated and can use big words instead of talking about the topic? [...]
Mostly because this topic is stupid. How am I supposed to answer this question ? I simply dont know and I simply cant know.
Originally posted by Scot Yes they do and there are more nurses than men who are women too. As the profession of doctor became open to them they moved heavily into that as well. That does not mean they have to heal in a MMO and many don't. You might concur from this that women are more nurturing types. Maybe they are? Basing that on a couple of pieces of evidence is hardly conclusive though. More importantly does it matter? It is amusing that we have women coming onto the thread to rant about this. They do seem to have a problem talking about gender in a relaxed way. If I was to say the vast majority of road labourers were men do you think guys would post on here up in arms? If I was to go on and infer that it indicated that men were mentally inferior do you think any man would do more than laugh? Get over yourselves girls, your gender is not that important.
I agree with you in principle. Gender doesn't matter when compared to whole person.
But, while I don't feel like I had been very riled up about this issue, you might not be so dismissive if you lived in a world where you are repeatedly marginalised by questions just like this OP. Even today, as Gobla so likes to point out, women are not even allowed into combat positions, forget about special ops type positions. Add to that that women are still paid less than men in the same position.
I'm not saying men aren't stereotyped, usually as stoic and unemotional, not to mention not being able to wear terribly varied clothing. But they just don't understand what it is like. And they never will.
So no, gender isn't and shouldn't be a factor in almost anything, but it will remain one as long as we have things like this being asked, and most of the men here (serving at least as a cross-section of online gamers) pretty much assuming it's true, for one manufactured reason or another, it will continue to be an issue. Sexism exists, and will continue to so long as we let it.
So very true. It's easy to be laid-back and magnanimous, when you're in the lead.
"So I contend that the player stories will always be more powerful than the scripted stories that we try to tell the players."
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
In addition to that even if females were allowed to serve in active combat roles everywhere a large percentage of them would probably not pass the requires physical tests nor have the interest in joining the military.
Err ... this is extreme b.s. Females have naturally a little bit less body strength, yes, because testosterone builds strength, and men have naturally more testosterone and therefore more muscle power. But women have other bodily advantages, such as the better immune system. It matters when it comes to sports, but you dont need to be a top athlete to be a good soldier.
It doesn't have anything to do with the female body or mind.
It's got everything to do with the simple fact that in high school and such most boys often play more intensive sports while most girls don't. (please don't interpret this as girls do less sports then boys..... real life isn't simple like that)
I totally agree that females could pass those tests. They've certainly got the potential. But potential doesn't make it so. We simply live in a culture where the military and a large amount of sports (football, rugby etc.) are seen as male things. This has nothing to do with males being somehow superior at those things when compared to females (some males will be better then some females while other females will be better then other males). Or even some sort of alpha male instinct rearing it's head causing all men to drool excessively and compete whenever possible.
It's simply the culture we live in that's shaped over decades for at the time logical reasons that are by now more often then not no longer relevant or even true (if they were in the first place).
I call b.s on that women could pass the SAME physical tests as men. During my time in the military and in law enforcement women had lower physical test. Which is sexist. If they can pass the exact same test then they should be more than welcome to any unit but enough of the special woman standard. I have only met a handful of women that could possibly pass the same test though with the kids coming out of high school now I think they wouldbe lucky to pass the female physical test. In regards to women being healers in MMos the vast majoirty of healers I have met have all been female who also had dps alts. I don't know if it is because they were women or the fact that all 7 were nurses.
Some people here just when overboard with their interpretation of this thread. The question was not if girls were worse or equal at playing video games than guys, nor was it a scientific essay showing how girls tend to play healers more than guys. It was a question, a place to share your opinion. In my last guild, our main healer who was a girl, was one of our best raiders by far. Their skill is not in question. Regarding the "apples" comment, you must be blind or not live in this world to not see how girls gravitate towards certain things more than guys, and vice versa. Why should it not be so when it comes to playing vide games? Because you think it isn't? Just like I can't prove with hard numbers that they prefer healers, you can't disprove it.
Well I think it depends on the game, in say DR yes, yes they do. But healing in that game is sitting in a room, talking about guys, and telling gossip until someone walks in half dead. In other games I'd say it's a crap shoot, just depends on the healing class and the girl there. It's the mmo version of a knitting circle vs action based beat down healing.
Well, I am a male player that likes healing classes(support). I like buffing, healing, debuffing, and crowd control. Mostly I like to heal or CC. It's more interesting to me and requires more challenge than just pew-pew. I also find it less stressful than playing a tank.
However, for the poll I voted yes. Mainly because most of the RL girls I have played with have also been healers. Not all, just most. One of my friends has a wife that loves to tank. Another has a bard type wife. It varies, but I tend to see more in the healing role. Why is that? Society? Behavoir shaping? No idea. I tend to agree with Dubhlaith on most of her posts.
If I said I was gay would that make you think that is the reason I like healing as a guy? Because I'm more feminine or something like that? That's just retarded and silly. Same goes for girls as healers.
I was not able to read this entire thread, but the sumamry I got was something like, "Women are more likely to be a healer because they are more inclined to fill the role of nurturer".
I think there is some truth to this though it is certainly going to be a case by case issue. We have no hard statistical data.
Also I don't think you can discount the cultural implications here. You could ask a similar question, "Are females more likely to play a healer role due to the cultural stigma that is placed upon them?" Would we find these same "healer tendencies" in other cultures (If they had MMOs)? How many females are chosing a healer role not becasue of their natural affinity but because of the cultural training they recieved in their upbringing?
Another thing to consider is that the female brain is better capable of multi-tasking than the male brain. (Imagine a cave woman tending to the fire, making clothing, cooking food, improving shelter, all while handling a child . As opposed to the cave man that is very focused on a single thing, their prey.) In many MMOs the more highly micro-managed classes are healers, watching health bars, maintaining buffs, etc. While the more DPS classes tend to involve a more "focused" play style. So another question we could ask would be, "Are females better capable of playing healer roles or micro-managed classes?"
I'm reminded of my guild leaders in Murder Herd. They are a male and female couple.
Conq (male) tends to encourage Mattie (Female) into playing a healer or support role to benefit his own character (He gets a personal healer). Currently in Brink she has opposed this and is now playing an Engineer because she prefers the class. This is a perfect example of a cultural expectation being placed on a female yet she has defied that expectation and taken her own path.
Nature vs. Nurture has always been a back and forth battle. I don't think any clear lines will be drawn here.
Also I play DnD with a cute young girl and she plays a frothing blood thirsty barbarian with a huge axe. She always plays a DPS role. On the other hand I know another cute young female who also plays DnD and almost always plays a "nature" based class and also specializes in social skills and wants to have more dialoge and fill support roles than to jsut kill things.
It certainly seems like it. From my own personal experience, I've known more female healers than male. Just in my last guild we had four girls playing as healers on our raid, and only one guy. So what do you think? Are girls more inclined to the healer's role than guys are?
I would say yes and voted as much. Though I do tend to play tanks or healers myself as a guy. Females tend to be less selfish then males or so studies have proven time and time again. So it would make sense that a class that helps others would be more in tune with what a more giving self sacrificing player would want to play. Of course these are generalities and there are always exceptions to the rule and variants.
I think people are getting out of hand about this entire topic.
Personally, I'm not a fan of healing because I get anxiety. Other than that, I would do it if my state of mind would allow for it.
Kittyvonkita - I was just about to ask you a similar question.
Do you think, from a females perspective, that most girls are too intimidated to play a healer or view healing as overly stressful?
There is a lot of weight on your shoulders as a healer, and well, lets be honest, the maturity level of the majority of male players in MMO's is not exactly the most exciting to hang around, especially when if you are a "bad healer'.
I can totally see your point of view and do not blame you in the slightest for not wanting to be a healer.
This might be a bad subject to point out, but the recent(?) World of Warcraft changes with their latest expansion Cataclysm put a heavy burden on many healers. Many of them have quit playing their healers or they have quit playing the game entirely because of this.
Nah i know alot of females that play and most of them play warroirs like tanks
Playing: Single player games |
Awaiting: Wild Star |Blade & Soul | The Repopulation | The Elder Scrolls online | ArcheAge | Firefall | Survarium | Bless | Black Desert |
Played: Guild Wars | Diablo 3 |The War Z | Runescape |World of Warcraft |Combat Arms |Perfect World | Rift | Fiesta | DC universe online | Aion | Age of Conan |Allods | Vindictus | The Secret World | Forge | Battle of the Immortals | Global Agenda| Cabal Online | Tera |
My wife hates to be healer she has too much anxiety regarding keeping a group alive as she does not want to let the group down her favourite thing to do as far as I can work out is to just hit stuff and shes quite good at it.
Well I'm a girl gamer and I have never liked healing classes or tank classes. I have always liked being the Damage Dealer, typically with a 2 handed weapon. I like to get my nose in the dirt if you like! :P
I don't think the class preference is gender, but rather the individual. Everyone is different... So as the poll states, it's probably 50-50.
It really depends on who the people are and the game. Most of the young boys on games nowadays are more wanting of a female in any role over a guy. lol or a guy that plays as a girl and dosnt tell anyone. If healers are in a ok abundance and they could choose a boy or a girl to go questing with probly 70% would rather go with the female depending on who was in the party (thanks to those gamer girls to keep those little boys heads on rite). Not being sexist just that in my runs around the mmo world thats normaly the case . Sad day trying to prove myself on my healers just to get tosed aside by a female cuz they are female .
I sometimes like the healer class if there is a need for it , I always find it nice to have it as my first guy to make since they normaly lvl quicker and can get more money at start over a under equiped dps/tank, so when I do start my dps I have nice equips to look forward too. Also if its really guild heavy the guilds helping out with the few healers to get them to join since dps units are a dime a dozen since there are so many of them. When my gf and I play games normaly im in the healer/tank(not a bad thing) role and shes an aoe caster. She likes to make things go boom lol . Dont get me wrong I love my dps units too but id rather be a good unit then a junky one.
Comments
Yes they do and there are more nurses than men who are women too. As the profession of doctor became open to them they moved heavily into that as well. That does not mean they have to heal in a MMO and many don't.
You might concur from this that women are more nurturing types. Maybe they are? Basing that on a couple of pieces of evidence is hardly conclusive though. More importantly does it matter?
It is amusing that we have women coming onto the thread to rant about this. They do seem to have a problem talking about gender in a relaxed way. If I was to say the vast majority of road labourers were men do you think guys would post on here up in arms? If I was to go on and infer that it indicated that men were mentally inferior do you think any man would do more than laugh?
Get over yourselves girls, your gender is not that important.
I would say that I have seen more girls play as healers, but I have seen more healers as men over all, because men dominate the gaming scene. (dominate = populate)
And while I may have seen many girls play as healers, I have only met a hand full that were actually any good. I am all for people of any sex, race, whatever, playing games... just don't play with me, because you more than likely suck at the game and will probably get the rest of us killed.
Edit:
Just thought of this - More men play as healers because of population, but I would say more men also play as FEMALE healers. Just a strange thought...
Good question, but no. Me and 90% of my gaming girl friends either 1. dont have a healer, or 2. just don't play our healers lol
Completely true! I hate healing, myself. And I'd say about 65% of healing classes in game are female toons. Not fact, just me roughing it.
Well i figured if i have to look at someone's ass for 2+ hours a day when playing a MMO, it is still better if i look at female ass, that's why i rolled a female.
I think as early in the MMO scene women took the healing roles because they could stand back heal and I think they enjoyed the accomplishment more of healing/casting than the melee. I think now you are seeing a new breed of female players who are used to playing games. So I think that the healing is more evenly spread than it was before. I think women are just as likely to pick a dps now as they are a healer.
I agree with you in principle. Gender doesn't matter when compared to whole person.
But, while I don't feel like I had been very riled up about this issue, you might not be so dismissive if you lived in a world where you are repeatedly marginalised by questions just like this OP. Even today, as Gobla so likes to point out, women are not even allowed into combat positions, forget about special ops type positions. Add to that that women are still paid less than men in the same position.
I'm not saying men aren't stereotyped, usually as stoic and unemotional, not to mention not being able to wear terribly varied clothing. But they just don't understand what it is like. And they never will.
So no, gender isn't and shouldn't be a factor in almost anything, but it will remain one as long as we have things like this being asked, and most of the men here (serving at least as a cross-section of online gamers) pretty much assuming it's true, for one manufactured reason or another, it will continue to be an issue. Sexism exists, and will continue to so long as we let it.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
WTF? No subscription fee?
Mostly because this topic is stupid. How am I supposed to answer this question ? I simply dont know and I simply cant know.
I agree with you in principle. Gender doesn't matter when compared to whole person.
But, while I don't feel like I had been very riled up about this issue, you might not be so dismissive if you lived in a world where you are repeatedly marginalised by questions just like this OP. Even today, as Gobla so likes to point out, women are not even allowed into combat positions, forget about special ops type positions. Add to that that women are still paid less than men in the same position.
I'm not saying men aren't stereotyped, usually as stoic and unemotional, not to mention not being able to wear terribly varied clothing. But they just don't understand what it is like. And they never will.
So no, gender isn't and shouldn't be a factor in almost anything, but it will remain one as long as we have things like this being asked, and most of the men here (serving at least as a cross-section of online gamers) pretty much assuming it's true, for one manufactured reason or another, it will continue to be an issue. Sexism exists, and will continue to so long as we let it.
So very true. It's easy to be laid-back and magnanimous, when you're in the lead.
"So I contend that the player stories will always be more powerful than the scripted stories that we try to tell the players."
- Will Wright
I hope the girls do have a higher affinity for healing. I can use some help.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
I call b.s on that women could pass the SAME physical tests as men. During my time in the military and in law enforcement women had lower physical test. Which is sexist. If they can pass the exact same test then they should be more than welcome to any unit but enough of the special woman standard. I have only met a handful of women that could possibly pass the same test though with the kids coming out of high school now I think they wouldbe lucky to pass the female physical test. In regards to women being healers in MMos the vast majoirty of healers I have met have all been female who also had dps alts. I don't know if it is because they were women or the fact that all 7 were nurses.
Some people here just when overboard with their interpretation of this thread. The question was not if girls were worse or equal at playing video games than guys, nor was it a scientific essay showing how girls tend to play healers more than guys. It was a question, a place to share your opinion. In my last guild, our main healer who was a girl, was one of our best raiders by far. Their skill is not in question. Regarding the "apples" comment, you must be blind or not live in this world to not see how girls gravitate towards certain things more than guys, and vice versa. Why should it not be so when it comes to playing vide games? Because you think it isn't? Just like I can't prove with hard numbers that they prefer healers, you can't disprove it.
Well I think it depends on the game, in say DR yes, yes they do. But healing in that game is sitting in a room, talking about guys, and telling gossip until someone walks in half dead. In other games I'd say it's a crap shoot, just depends on the healing class and the girl there. It's the mmo version of a knitting circle vs action based beat down healing.
Well, I am a male player that likes healing classes(support). I like buffing, healing, debuffing, and crowd control. Mostly I like to heal or CC. It's more interesting to me and requires more challenge than just pew-pew. I also find it less stressful than playing a tank.
However, for the poll I voted yes. Mainly because most of the RL girls I have played with have also been healers. Not all, just most. One of my friends has a wife that loves to tank. Another has a bard type wife. It varies, but I tend to see more in the healing role. Why is that? Society? Behavoir shaping? No idea. I tend to agree with Dubhlaith on most of her posts.
If I said I was gay would that make you think that is the reason I like healing as a guy? Because I'm more feminine or something like that? That's just retarded and silly. Same goes for girls as healers.
I was not able to read this entire thread, but the sumamry I got was something like, "Women are more likely to be a healer because they are more inclined to fill the role of nurturer".
I think there is some truth to this though it is certainly going to be a case by case issue. We have no hard statistical data.
Also I don't think you can discount the cultural implications here. You could ask a similar question, "Are females more likely to play a healer role due to the cultural stigma that is placed upon them?" Would we find these same "healer tendencies" in other cultures (If they had MMOs)? How many females are chosing a healer role not becasue of their natural affinity but because of the cultural training they recieved in their upbringing?
Another thing to consider is that the female brain is better capable of multi-tasking than the male brain. (Imagine a cave woman tending to the fire, making clothing, cooking food, improving shelter, all while handling a child . As opposed to the cave man that is very focused on a single thing, their prey.) In many MMOs the more highly micro-managed classes are healers, watching health bars, maintaining buffs, etc. While the more DPS classes tend to involve a more "focused" play style. So another question we could ask would be, "Are females better capable of playing healer roles or micro-managed classes?"
I'm reminded of my guild leaders in Murder Herd. They are a male and female couple.
Conq (male) tends to encourage Mattie (Female) into playing a healer or support role to benefit his own character (He gets a personal healer). Currently in Brink she has opposed this and is now playing an Engineer because she prefers the class. This is a perfect example of a cultural expectation being placed on a female yet she has defied that expectation and taken her own path.
Nature vs. Nurture has always been a back and forth battle. I don't think any clear lines will be drawn here.
Also I play DnD with a cute young girl and she plays a frothing blood thirsty barbarian with a huge axe. She always plays a DPS role. On the other hand I know another cute young female who also plays DnD and almost always plays a "nature" based class and also specializes in social skills and wants to have more dialoge and fill support roles than to jsut kill things.
I would say yes and voted as much. Though I do tend to play tanks or healers myself as a guy. Females tend to be less selfish then males or so studies have proven time and time again. So it would make sense that a class that helps others would be more in tune with what a more giving self sacrificing player would want to play. Of course these are generalities and there are always exceptions to the rule and variants.
I think people are getting out of hand about this entire topic.
Personally, I'm not a fan of healing because I get anxiety. Other than that, I would do it if my state of mind would allow for it.
Kittyvonkita - I was just about to ask you a similar question.
Do you think, from a females perspective, that most girls are too intimidated to play a healer or view healing as overly stressful?
There is a lot of weight on your shoulders as a healer, and well, lets be honest, the maturity level of the majority of male players in MMO's is not exactly the most exciting to hang around, especially when if you are a "bad healer'.
I can totally see your point of view and do not blame you in the slightest for not wanting to be a healer.
This might be a bad subject to point out, but the recent(?) World of Warcraft changes with their latest expansion Cataclysm put a heavy burden on many healers. Many of them have quit playing their healers or they have quit playing the game entirely because of this.
I know of myself and another person we are both females and we like to heal. But definitely no way is that conclusive in any way.
Nah i know alot of females that play and most of them play warroirs like tanks
Playing: Single player games |
Awaiting: Wild Star |Blade & Soul | The Repopulation | The Elder Scrolls online | ArcheAge | Firefall | Survarium | Bless | Black Desert |
Played: Guild Wars | Diablo 3 |The War Z | Runescape |World of Warcraft |Combat Arms |Perfect World | Rift | Fiesta | DC universe online | Aion | Age of Conan |Allods | Vindictus | The Secret World | Forge | Battle of the Immortals | Global Agenda| Cabal Online | Tera |
I've known some faily evil hardcase bitches so probably not. Or maybe it's my hard luck.
My wife hates to be healer she has too much anxiety regarding keeping a group alive as she does not want to let the group down her favourite thing to do as far as I can work out is to just hit stuff and shes quite good at it.
I havent read the whole thread, but apparently its still the same as in the beginning ?
Nobody has hard numbers and its all a guessing game and pure speculation.
Well I'm a girl gamer and I have never liked healing classes or tank classes. I have always liked being the Damage Dealer, typically with a 2 handed weapon. I like to get my nose in the dirt if you like! :P
I don't think the class preference is gender, but rather the individual. Everyone is different... So as the poll states, it's probably 50-50.
It really depends on who the people are and the game. Most of the young boys on games nowadays are more wanting of a female in any role over a guy. lol or a guy that plays as a girl and dosnt tell anyone. If healers are in a ok abundance and they could choose a boy or a girl to go questing with probly 70% would rather go with the female depending on who was in the party (thanks to those gamer girls to keep those little boys heads on rite). Not being sexist just that in my runs around the mmo world thats normaly the case . Sad day trying to prove myself on my healers just to get tosed aside by a female cuz they are female .
I sometimes like the healer class if there is a need for it , I always find it nice to have it as my first guy to make since they normaly lvl quicker and can get more money at start over a under equiped dps/tank, so when I do start my dps I have nice equips to look forward too. Also if its really guild heavy the guilds helping out with the few healers to get them to join since dps units are a dime a dozen since there are so many of them. When my gf and I play games normaly im in the healer/tank(not a bad thing) role and shes an aoe caster. She likes to make things go boom lol . Dont get me wrong I love my dps units too but id rather be a good unit then a junky one.