This is an interesting topic. I was slightly dissappointed by the article, however, as I was assuming there would be a more indepth analysis on why using an established IP is detrimental to MMO development, or a demonstration of a causal relationship between IP use and MMO failure.
To be sure, Jon gave quite a list of IP-based MMOs that are considered failures throughout the MMO community. Still, a list of non-IP-based MMOs would have yielded a similar record of failure.
Vanguard. Tabula Rasa. Auto Assault. APB. Aion. Global Agenda. Each one a real or perceived failure for reasons similar to the list Jon gave, none of which used a pre-existing IP. And, the list could go on and on.
I think it is harder, and more restrictive, to use a major IP for a game. Many IPs, as great as they may be, simply do not fit the MMO genre. But, overall, I believe a lot of games - IP-based or not - are failing to hit the MMO mark these days. Given a wider array of MMO types, and a schizophrenic community, I'm not sure many games will ever hit the mark like they used to when choices were more limited.
Well I don't think the problem lies with the IP itself being turned into an MMO. The problem is that EVERY developer out there wants a clone of WoW. This is what turns a lot of people off, I personally don't want to play a dumbed down, simplified game just so WoW players can learn how to play it without a "For Dummies" book. Now there are some MMOs out there that still show potential even though they dumbed down the game, such as STO. But for me, I'm waiting for TOR to launch and for Bioware to hopefully announce they are turning their Mass Effect franchise into an MMO (would be the best one out there)
I liked the Mummy. I thought it was excellent for a tongue-in-cheek movie. But a MMO based on it would have to be really amazing to get my attention. And I don't think anyone really sees that happening. I'd put my money on this getting canceled before going live.
I think maskedweasel hit the nail on the head there with regards to SW:TOR - BioWare pretty much invented the lore of that period in time (or at least the period directly before it) with KoTOR, they've said they picked the time-frame on purpose so as not to be overly restricted by established canon events and personalities.
I think that's a very clever way of side-stepping the IP trap so many games fell into.
I mean, let's be honest here, I know a lot of people want SWG2 (and aren't, by all accounts going to get it) but SW:TOR will 99% sure be a better representation of Star Wars than STO was of Star Trek...not that that would be a difficult task ; )
Meh. Yeah MMOs based off any third party IP is high potential for fail when the developers using the IP have no clue where to start on making a good game. It seems these companies don't have any ideas of their own so they feel that by buying the rights to someone else's idea that made money they will some how magically gain some kind of creative epiphany. Hasn't worked out that good so far in the world of MMOs. So far LOTRO is probably the best performer and it was a game so fettered by the constraints of the IP that they could not make the game "mainstream" enough to make it a massive success.
Watching these companies continue to chase their tails reminds me of what I call the "Wyld Stallyns Conundrum" inspired by the conversation between Bill and Ted at the begining of the movie Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure, on how their band could become successful.
Bill:...Ted, while I agree that in time our band will be most triumphant, the truth is Wyld Stallyns will never be a super band until we have Eddie Van Halen on guitar.
Ted: Yes Bill, but I do not believe we will get Eddie Van Halen until we have a triumphant video.
Bill: Ted, it's pointless to have a triumphant video before we even have decent instruments.
Ted: Well how can we have decent instruments when we really don't even know how to play.
Bill: That is why we need Eddie Van Halen.
Ted: And that is why we need a triumphant video.
(Pause)
Both: Excellent. (Air Guitar.)
While that might seem a silly example I think it captures the thought process (or lack there of) of quite a few MMO companies. They want to get in on the big Wow money, but have no original ideas of their own, so they go out and buy the rights to a gold mine IP and then build a half assed game around it. Never do they realize that if they had just hired proper creative talent and had some idea of what framework they wanted to build a game around first, all their work might have been worth something.
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
For me, this is a lot like creating a video game from a movie or worse yet, creating a movie from a video game. Neither one of those situations ever really work out well, so I just avoid. When I see an MMO based on an existing non-gaming IP, I just ignore it.
That said, I don't think DDO should be in this list. It was always a game. It may not have been a video game (at first) but it was still a game and spawned many video games based off of its rules and classes (some extremely successful ones) long before it was an MMO. The same could be said for Warhammer. I'm with you on everything else though.
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."
It seems like a lot of companies just don't care about the long-term health of their MMOG. I mean, even if they can't please the user base, they'll find a ton of fans willing ot buy 3-4 copies of a game just to get a few digital exclusive items. What do they care if they pull in loads of box money and then let the game flounder and die as subs drop month by month? What's the real consequence of that? It's not as if the employees don't get picked right up if the company goes belly up.
parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.
I always thought IP games in general, not just MMOs were a lame-brain lazy way to try to make a buck. Even before the Internet, we had such "gems" as ET, Nightbreed, and the list goes on.
When will investors get it that what get players attention is originality? To be honest, even games with high fantasy characters turn me off these days. And I don't think I'm alone either. As an example, one of the games generating the most buzz right now is Secret World. And there is not an elf in sight in. EVE, one of the most endurng MMOs out there is also completely original. Not just in theme, but in execution as well.
Yep, people should drop the cookie cutter IPs and quit being lazy and just come with something original on their own. And enough high fantasy while we are at it too!
I can see why there is the appeal for IP based MMOs, and its something that the entire genre really needs to look at and look at hard.
There was another news item a long time ago that had posed the question, "Why are all the new games panning after the same demographic, the same audience, the same steroetypes with the same games?" Because that is what these games do, that's what MMOs have done. There is the audience of MMO players, which while still a large population and in many ways still a growing population, it is often rightfully classified as young (16-25) males, all of which have experience in at least a MMO and are branching out for another.
Using IPs were originally an idea to reach out to a new group of people, the fans of that IP that weren't neccessarily fans of MMOs in the first place. Granted, the demographic isn't often all that different with the IPs being chosen, but at some point the MMO market is going to have to vie for something more than a slice of the same pie that everyone else already has a slice of.
Really, one of the main issues with the IPs is how rabid the fan bases of the IPs have been in many cases. Between Warhammer, Star Trek, Star Wars, etc. the fanbases set requirements that are imbalanced or expectations that can't be met and thus are disappointments. In my opinion, its not a problem with IPs but a problem with the IPs being chosen.
I think that the MMO world does kinda have to expand or it will be the same group of MMO fans butterflying from one MMO to the next until they settle down for a bit, and if there's no expansion outside the current MMO-sphere than the slices are going to be thinner and thinner as MMOs will only be picking off of the leftovers of whoever already doesn't have a game.
I really hope that *insert game name here* will be the first game to ever live up to all of its pre-release promises, maintain a manageable hype level and have a clean release. Just don't expect me to hold my breath.
The biggest challenge to developers of MMOs based on well known IPs is fan expectations. Fans of any particular IP know it inside and out and this sets certain expectations... no, requirements in their minds of what should be in a game. These requirements are not always possible due to many factors from simple game mechanics to time/investment restraints to IP holders desires of what 'their' game should be like. Also fan expectations change accross the fanbase so what the IP means to fan 'a' may be totally different than what fans 'b' or 'c' may want. Anytime you develop a well known IP into a game it's bound to disappoint or even alienate a certain percentage of the fanbase of said IP.
Star Trek Online is a perfect example of this. I followed the development of this game very closely both here and on Startrek-online.net(PE) as well as on Cryptic's forum. One thing I noticed is the expectations of the fanbase varied greatly from individual to individual. These expectations went from a total 'Star Trek life simulator' to a strict Star Fleet Command MMO. There was no way they could possibly make the entire fanbase happy with one game. This splintered the fanbase into many camps where STO was concerned. These camps varied from those that loved the direction of the development to those that felt it would kill the franchise forever. As a result they had to develop a game that a very small percentage of the fanbase actually liked.
This is the pitfall of developing a well known IP into a game and is one that is impossible to overcome. No matter what you decide to put in your game it's gonna piss off a certain percentage of the IP's fanbase. Sometimes, like in the case of STO that percentage can be an overwhelming obsticle that can't be overcome as the fanbase is just to splintered over what they expect from the game. In cases like this you end up with a game that only caters to maybe less than 10 percent of the fanbase which isn't enough to keep a game alive.
Disclaimer: I used STO as an example as it's the one I have the most in depth knowledge of the development. I don't like or play STO so this is in no way a defence of what Cryptic did to this wonderful IP. I may not like their final product but I do understand what made it fail so completely... Fan expectations that were impossible to make a reality as they varied too greatly and a good percentage would have been nearly impossible to code in the time Cryptic gave themselves to complete the game.
I can see why there is the appeal for IP based MMOs, and its something that the entire genre really needs to look at and look at hard.
There was another news item a long time ago that had posed the question, "Why are all the new games panning after the same demographic, the same audience, the same steroetypes with the same games?" Because that is what these games do, that's what MMOs have done. There is the audience of MMO players, which while still a large population and in many ways still a growing population, it is often rightfully classified as young (16-25) males, all of which have experience in at least a MMO and are branching out for another.
Using IPs were originally an idea to reach out to a new group of people, the fans of that IP that weren't neccessarily fans of MMOs in the first place. Granted, the demographic isn't often all that different with the IPs being chosen, but at some point the MMO market is going to have to vie for something more than a slice of the same pie that everyone else already has a slice of.
Oddly enough, I read something a few months back (in an actual newspaper) which reported "The largest growing demograpic for MMO's is the 30+ age bracket". Since I can't remember what the reporter based this off, I'll just call this anecdotal information.
Film, television, and book franchises are just not good candidates for MMOs. Even MMOs based on the "Big Two" franchises – you know the ones – have not lived up to the expectations of their developers. Today, and historically, the biggest MMOs are based on universes that were created for the purpose of supporting games. MMOs are all about exploration, personal glory, hanging out with friends, and meeting new people. You can't take a universe that was created to support a linear, non-interactive viewing experience that has its own six-volume set of rules and expect a development team to deliver something innovative and fresh within that universe that allows millions of players to be the hero. The best games, MMO or otherwise, are created first and foremost to be games, and the world, story, and setting are there to serve that end, not the other way around. It seems like I hear about a new MMO in development based on a sci-fi or fantasy license every week, and it worries me tremendously. MMOs are expensive, expectations are high, and huge failures will disenfranchise publishers and make life more difficult for new MMO developers. If you want to take a popular movie license and spin out a DS game to support its launch, then go for it – I think that's an appropriate form of media collaboration – but let developers design MMOs that are not constrained by the rules and restrictions of a licensing body.
It seems to me that in the long haul, the most successful MMO's have historically been using home grown lore and not external IP's.
EQ 1/2, AO, AC, DAOC, Lineage 1/2, GW1 and even WOW came from internally created IP's where as most MMO's outside of SWG (and even here a big complaint was it wasn't Star Warsy enough) more or less tanked.
External IP's bring all sorts of baggage in the form of limitations on game features and design which is clearly evidenced in LotRO where they either have to chose to badly bend the IP to make it fun, or stick to the lore stubbornly (like with the PVP model) which limits the game for many people. (Who didn't really want to lead the Orc Legions at Helms Deep and show the forces of good how it really should have been done)
No, I think over time the idea of using a major external IP has proven to be largely a flop, sure, TOR may be a big success, but GW2 with its home grown lore seems to be just as eagerly awaited, at least by those who have a deeper appreciation of the genre.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Originally posted by Kyleran It seems to me that in the long haul, the most successful MMO's have historically been using home grown lore and not external IP's. EQ 1/2, AO, AC, DAOC, Lineage 1/2, GW1 and even WOW came from internally created IP's
Lineage is based on a comic book by Shin Il-Sook from 1993.
I can't speak to this too much simply because... I don't want to, but what I can say is the following:
IP games in general kind of suck, overall. Most especially those done AFTER a great film success, like the spiderman movies, or anything where they try to capitalize on the success of an IP simply due to its newfound widespread success. Transformers is just one of those titles. It isn't just MMOs... its usually the entire genre. The IP sells the games, so its okay for them to skimp on the gameplay... they've been doing that for decades.
-snip-
eg
<blockquote>Warhammer 40K: Too soon to tell, but players are already complaining about a two faction system.</blockquote>
The IDEA of the IP is enough. Reduce risk by bringing the IP (established) to market. Why chuck out that reduced risk with risky game design when the idea of the IP maxes a potential market for the IP + a potential market for mmorpg games ?
What happened to discussing gameplay! Anyone interested would have CHOSEN GAME DESIGN and GAMEPLAY and seen if an IP matches that or created their own IP, instead of taking the IP and matching it to the clone design of other mmorpgs... it's all backwards.
I have faith that the emperor will show the devs of vigil game the light and show them the error of their ways with the 2 faction system! Warhammer online is not going to happen again.
When I play an mmo that is not tied to an IP, I am taking in the game as it is presented to me. My only expectations are the ones its maker created in pre-launch ads and interviews.
But when I play an mmo tied to an IP, I have major expectations. I want to experience the game like I experienced the books or movies. Seldom is that expectation met.
Still, there is always hope. SWTOR, for example, looks plenty Star Warsy to me, at least for now. So I'm not ruling out that an mmo could deliver. But I agree there haven't been many good examples so far.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
I have faith that the emperor will show the devs of vigil game the light and show them the error of their ways with the 2 faction system! Warhammer online is not going to happen again.
Your false Emperor cannot help you now. He and his 2 faction puppet minions cannot see the folly of their ways and will burn in the Eye of Terror! BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
Jon, I'm completely with you on dying a little bit after watching the Transformers movies. The two little twin car ones are like the Jar-Jar Binxs of the new generation. But it could have been worse. (See GI Joe: The Rise Of Cobra)
I think the biggest problem with using a non-gaming IP is the expectations are always outrageously high. Star Trek and Star Wars come to mind. STO was going to be just like the show, you could fly around meeting aliens (and killing or making out with them), exploring planets, and all that good "Star Trek" stuff. It ended up nothing like we all thought it would be.
Star Wars is probably the biggest IP out there. I don't want to be a downer, but rather a voice of reality, when I say this: The expectations for TOR is way to high. I have a feeling like pretty much EVERY single IP MMO (except lotro), it won't give that Star Wars feeling...for starters the races are very limited. I can remember watching the catina scene, and within 5 seconds you saw more races of aliens/humanoids than there will be in the entire game of TOR. The number of planets will be limited as well. There's really no way they can program all the planets from Star Wars. Player's hard drives and ram aren't 50TB lol. There's nearly infinite number of planets, and even though there are only maybe 15 that are prevalant in the movies/shows, it doesn't seem MMO-ey or Star Wars-ey to me to be limited to only planets named/shown in the movies. Only having 4 classes per side really kills replayability for me. I will probably end up having maybe 2 classes on each side, and not the ones that are almost cookie cutter of the other side's class (really there's only like 5 classes).
Using an IP for a MMO is a dual-edged sword. It gives you instant recognition and a fan base. However, it also raises the expectations through the roof. Plus, there's nothing worse than an IP fan that has had thier IP ruined.
Well said, Gravarg. For SWTOR the dual-edged sword is doubly sharp as the fans have had to endure not just the bad prequels but even an earlier SW MMO disaster. Hopefully a company like Bioware have the ability to design a great game AND tie in the Star Wars universe to it. What worries me about that is some of the things you mentoned, we will get to see only a limited amount of the SW universe (though frankly that is just as true of the films) and they are keeping the races to the most human like to ease the amount of meshing, boning and animating they need to do. Something they possibly could have had the extra talent to work on if they weren't trying so hard to push their epic story angle.
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
Personally, IP MMOs are my favorite type... as long as the IP is significant enough.
My best example is LOTRO VS Rift. At their core, they are pretty similar. Autoattack, use abilities. I played rift for about a week and was über bored. I had grown bored of this years ago when I quit WoW, and I generally wrote off any MMO with this combat system. Then I tried LOTRO and loved it. I feel the difference was the richness of the IP, and the whole "Seeing the sights" feel of the Lord of the Rings locations.
In Rift, an origional IP, I felt like everything was uninspired and generic. In Lotro, I feel like I'm seeing fantasy history. Theres lots of ways you can argue against this, I'm just saying how I felt. The IP was what made the difference. Not to mention I enjoy LOTR's rare-magic style. That example is a little more specific than the first, but still, IP based. I also loved Warhammer Online for a good 4 months just because I feverishly play 40K tabletop and dig the lore. When I stopped subbing and stepped back, WAR is WAY not my game. I hate PvP. But the IP drew me in, and I played an Orc (like my tabletop army) with glee JUST to feel "Orky". Other games just annoy me when I play an Orc becuase I just wish they were like Warhammer.
So anyway, 40K MMO: Excited. I dislike the 2 faction, but I am very willing to overlook that for a few months just to run around in the 40K universe. (Wether its longer than few months will of course depend on the game itself)
-------------------------------- -Been there, done that: Xsyon, WoW, EVE, Maplestory, City of Heroes, Guild Wars, Warhammer Online, FF11, Rift -Currently playing: Not MMOs -Wants to check out: SWTOR, Dark Millennium
Maybe developers should hire some of the Literature Majors who are looking for jobs!
Check out what Jack Emmert (current CEO of Cryptic) was studying in college. If I remember correctly, he had a Master's in ancient history, and another in literature.
"Oh my, how horrible, someone is criticizing a MMO. Oh yeah, that is what a forum is about, looking at both sides. You rather have to be critical of anything in this genre as of late because the track record of these major studios has just been appalling." -Ozmodan
Comments
This is an interesting topic. I was slightly dissappointed by the article, however, as I was assuming there would be a more indepth analysis on why using an established IP is detrimental to MMO development, or a demonstration of a causal relationship between IP use and MMO failure.
To be sure, Jon gave quite a list of IP-based MMOs that are considered failures throughout the MMO community. Still, a list of non-IP-based MMOs would have yielded a similar record of failure.
Vanguard. Tabula Rasa. Auto Assault. APB. Aion. Global Agenda. Each one a real or perceived failure for reasons similar to the list Jon gave, none of which used a pre-existing IP. And, the list could go on and on.
I think it is harder, and more restrictive, to use a major IP for a game. Many IPs, as great as they may be, simply do not fit the MMO genre. But, overall, I believe a lot of games - IP-based or not - are failing to hit the MMO mark these days. Given a wider array of MMO types, and a schizophrenic community, I'm not sure many games will ever hit the mark like they used to when choices were more limited.
Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.
Well I don't think the problem lies with the IP itself being turned into an MMO. The problem is that EVERY developer out there wants a clone of WoW. This is what turns a lot of people off, I personally don't want to play a dumbed down, simplified game just so WoW players can learn how to play it without a "For Dummies" book. Now there are some MMOs out there that still show potential even though they dumbed down the game, such as STO. But for me, I'm waiting for TOR to launch and for Bioware to hopefully announce they are turning their Mass Effect franchise into an MMO (would be the best one out there)
I liked the Mummy. I thought it was excellent for a tongue-in-cheek movie. But a MMO based on it would have to be really amazing to get my attention. And I don't think anyone really sees that happening. I'd put my money on this getting canceled before going live.
I think maskedweasel hit the nail on the head there with regards to SW:TOR - BioWare pretty much invented the lore of that period in time (or at least the period directly before it) with KoTOR, they've said they picked the time-frame on purpose so as not to be overly restricted by established canon events and personalities.
I think that's a very clever way of side-stepping the IP trap so many games fell into.
I mean, let's be honest here, I know a lot of people want SWG2 (and aren't, by all accounts going to get it) but SW:TOR will 99% sure be a better representation of Star Wars than STO was of Star Trek...not that that would be a difficult task ; )
Meh. Yeah MMOs based off any third party IP is high potential for fail when the developers using the IP have no clue where to start on making a good game. It seems these companies don't have any ideas of their own so they feel that by buying the rights to someone else's idea that made money they will some how magically gain some kind of creative epiphany. Hasn't worked out that good so far in the world of MMOs. So far LOTRO is probably the best performer and it was a game so fettered by the constraints of the IP that they could not make the game "mainstream" enough to make it a massive success.
Watching these companies continue to chase their tails reminds me of what I call the "Wyld Stallyns Conundrum" inspired by the conversation between Bill and Ted at the begining of the movie Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure, on how their band could become successful.
Bill:...Ted, while I agree that in time our band will be most triumphant, the truth is Wyld Stallyns will never be a super band until we have Eddie Van Halen on guitar.
Ted: Yes Bill, but I do not believe we will get Eddie Van Halen until we have a triumphant video.
Bill: Ted, it's pointless to have a triumphant video before we even have decent instruments.
Ted: Well how can we have decent instruments when we really don't even know how to play.
Bill: That is why we need Eddie Van Halen.
Ted: And that is why we need a triumphant video.
(Pause)
Both: Excellent. (Air Guitar.)
While that might seem a silly example I think it captures the thought process (or lack there of) of quite a few MMO companies. They want to get in on the big Wow money, but have no original ideas of their own, so they go out and buy the rights to a gold mine IP and then build a half assed game around it. Never do they realize that if they had just hired proper creative talent and had some idea of what framework they wanted to build a game around first, all their work might have been worth something.
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
For me, this is a lot like creating a video game from a movie or worse yet, creating a movie from a video game. Neither one of those situations ever really work out well, so I just avoid. When I see an MMO based on an existing non-gaming IP, I just ignore it.
That said, I don't think DDO should be in this list. It was always a game. It may not have been a video game (at first) but it was still a game and spawned many video games based off of its rules and classes (some extremely successful ones) long before it was an MMO. The same could be said for Warhammer. I'm with you on everything else though.
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."
It seems like a lot of companies just don't care about the long-term health of their MMOG. I mean, even if they can't please the user base, they'll find a ton of fans willing ot buy 3-4 copies of a game just to get a few digital exclusive items. What do they care if they pull in loads of box money and then let the game flounder and die as subs drop month by month? What's the real consequence of that? It's not as if the employees don't get picked right up if the company goes belly up.
parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.
I always thought IP games in general, not just MMOs were a lame-brain lazy way to try to make a buck. Even before the Internet, we had such "gems" as ET, Nightbreed, and the list goes on.
When will investors get it that what get players attention is originality? To be honest, even games with high fantasy characters turn me off these days. And I don't think I'm alone either. As an example, one of the games generating the most buzz right now is Secret World. And there is not an elf in sight in. EVE, one of the most endurng MMOs out there is also completely original. Not just in theme, but in execution as well.
Yep, people should drop the cookie cutter IPs and quit being lazy and just come with something original on their own. And enough high fantasy while we are at it too!
I can see why there is the appeal for IP based MMOs, and its something that the entire genre really needs to look at and look at hard.
There was another news item a long time ago that had posed the question, "Why are all the new games panning after the same demographic, the same audience, the same steroetypes with the same games?" Because that is what these games do, that's what MMOs have done. There is the audience of MMO players, which while still a large population and in many ways still a growing population, it is often rightfully classified as young (16-25) males, all of which have experience in at least a MMO and are branching out for another.
Using IPs were originally an idea to reach out to a new group of people, the fans of that IP that weren't neccessarily fans of MMOs in the first place. Granted, the demographic isn't often all that different with the IPs being chosen, but at some point the MMO market is going to have to vie for something more than a slice of the same pie that everyone else already has a slice of.
Really, one of the main issues with the IPs is how rabid the fan bases of the IPs have been in many cases. Between Warhammer, Star Trek, Star Wars, etc. the fanbases set requirements that are imbalanced or expectations that can't be met and thus are disappointments. In my opinion, its not a problem with IPs but a problem with the IPs being chosen.
I think that the MMO world does kinda have to expand or it will be the same group of MMO fans butterflying from one MMO to the next until they settle down for a bit, and if there's no expansion outside the current MMO-sphere than the slices are going to be thinner and thinner as MMOs will only be picking off of the leftovers of whoever already doesn't have a game.
Add The Matrix and Stargate to failed IPs
I really hope that *insert game name here* will be the first game to ever live up to all of its pre-release promises, maintain a manageable hype level and have a clean release. Just don't expect me to hold my breath.
The biggest challenge to developers of MMOs based on well known IPs is fan expectations. Fans of any particular IP know it inside and out and this sets certain expectations... no, requirements in their minds of what should be in a game. These requirements are not always possible due to many factors from simple game mechanics to time/investment restraints to IP holders desires of what 'their' game should be like. Also fan expectations change accross the fanbase so what the IP means to fan 'a' may be totally different than what fans 'b' or 'c' may want. Anytime you develop a well known IP into a game it's bound to disappoint or even alienate a certain percentage of the fanbase of said IP.
Star Trek Online is a perfect example of this. I followed the development of this game very closely both here and on Startrek-online.net(PE) as well as on Cryptic's forum. One thing I noticed is the expectations of the fanbase varied greatly from individual to individual. These expectations went from a total 'Star Trek life simulator' to a strict Star Fleet Command MMO. There was no way they could possibly make the entire fanbase happy with one game. This splintered the fanbase into many camps where STO was concerned. These camps varied from those that loved the direction of the development to those that felt it would kill the franchise forever. As a result they had to develop a game that a very small percentage of the fanbase actually liked.
This is the pitfall of developing a well known IP into a game and is one that is impossible to overcome. No matter what you decide to put in your game it's gonna piss off a certain percentage of the IP's fanbase. Sometimes, like in the case of STO that percentage can be an overwhelming obsticle that can't be overcome as the fanbase is just to splintered over what they expect from the game. In cases like this you end up with a game that only caters to maybe less than 10 percent of the fanbase which isn't enough to keep a game alive.
Disclaimer: I used STO as an example as it's the one I have the most in depth knowledge of the development. I don't like or play STO so this is in no way a defence of what Cryptic did to this wonderful IP. I may not like their final product but I do understand what made it fail so completely... Fan expectations that were impossible to make a reality as they varied too greatly and a good percentage would have been nearly impossible to code in the time Cryptic gave themselves to complete the game.
Bren
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Oddly enough, I read something a few months back (in an actual newspaper) which reported "The largest growing demograpic for MMO's is the 30+ age bracket". Since I can't remember what the reporter based this off, I'll just call this anecdotal information.
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Film, television, and book franchises are just not good candidates for MMOs. Even MMOs based on the "Big Two" franchises – you know the ones – have not lived up to the expectations of their developers. Today, and historically, the biggest MMOs are based on universes that were created for the purpose of supporting games. MMOs are all about exploration, personal glory, hanging out with friends, and meeting new people. You can't take a universe that was created to support a linear, non-interactive viewing experience that has its own six-volume set of rules and expect a development team to deliver something innovative and fresh within that universe that allows millions of players to be the hero. The best games, MMO or otherwise, are created first and foremost to be games, and the world, story, and setting are there to serve that end, not the other way around. It seems like I hear about a new MMO in development based on a sci-fi or fantasy license every week, and it worries me tremendously. MMOs are expensive, expectations are high, and huge failures will disenfranchise publishers and make life more difficult for new MMO developers. If you want to take a popular movie license and spin out a DS game to support its launch, then go for it – I think that's an appropriate form of media collaboration – but let developers design MMOs that are not constrained by the rules and restrictions of a licensing body.
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ArenaNet's Co-founder Jeff Strain's speech at Games Convention 2007: http://www.guildwars.com/events/tradeshows/gc2007/gcspeech.php
It seems to me that in the long haul, the most successful MMO's have historically been using home grown lore and not external IP's.
EQ 1/2, AO, AC, DAOC, Lineage 1/2, GW1 and even WOW came from internally created IP's where as most MMO's outside of SWG (and even here a big complaint was it wasn't Star Warsy enough) more or less tanked.
External IP's bring all sorts of baggage in the form of limitations on game features and design which is clearly evidenced in LotRO where they either have to chose to badly bend the IP to make it fun, or stick to the lore stubbornly (like with the PVP model) which limits the game for many people. (Who didn't really want to lead the Orc Legions at Helms Deep and show the forces of good how it really should have been done)
No, I think over time the idea of using a major external IP has proven to be largely a flop, sure, TOR may be a big success, but GW2 with its home grown lore seems to be just as eagerly awaited, at least by those who have a deeper appreciation of the genre.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
eg
<blockquote>Warhammer 40K: Too soon to tell, but players are already complaining about a two faction system.</blockquote>
The IDEA of the IP is enough. Reduce risk by bringing the IP (established) to market. Why chuck out that reduced risk with risky game design when the idea of the IP maxes a potential market for the IP + a potential market for mmorpg games ?
What happened to discussing gameplay! Anyone interested would have CHOSEN GAME DESIGN and GAMEPLAY and seen if an IP matches that or created their own IP, instead of taking the IP and matching it to the clone design of other mmorpgs... it's all backwards.
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
I have faith that the emperor will show the devs of vigil game the light and show them the error of their ways with the 2 faction system! Warhammer online is not going to happen again.
When I play an mmo that is not tied to an IP, I am taking in the game as it is presented to me. My only expectations are the ones its maker created in pre-launch ads and interviews.
But when I play an mmo tied to an IP, I have major expectations. I want to experience the game like I experienced the books or movies. Seldom is that expectation met.
Still, there is always hope. SWTOR, for example, looks plenty Star Warsy to me, at least for now. So I'm not ruling out that an mmo could deliver. But I agree there haven't been many good examples so far.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Your false Emperor cannot help you now. He and his 2 faction puppet minions cannot see the folly of their ways and will burn in the Eye of Terror! BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
Jon, I'm completely with you on dying a little bit after watching the Transformers movies. The two little twin car ones are like the Jar-Jar Binxs of the new generation. But it could have been worse. (See GI Joe: The Rise Of Cobra)
I think the biggest problem with using a non-gaming IP is the expectations are always outrageously high. Star Trek and Star Wars come to mind. STO was going to be just like the show, you could fly around meeting aliens (and killing or making out with them), exploring planets, and all that good "Star Trek" stuff. It ended up nothing like we all thought it would be.
Star Wars is probably the biggest IP out there. I don't want to be a downer, but rather a voice of reality, when I say this: The expectations for TOR is way to high. I have a feeling like pretty much EVERY single IP MMO (except lotro), it won't give that Star Wars feeling...for starters the races are very limited. I can remember watching the catina scene, and within 5 seconds you saw more races of aliens/humanoids than there will be in the entire game of TOR. The number of planets will be limited as well. There's really no way they can program all the planets from Star Wars. Player's hard drives and ram aren't 50TB lol. There's nearly infinite number of planets, and even though there are only maybe 15 that are prevalant in the movies/shows, it doesn't seem MMO-ey or Star Wars-ey to me to be limited to only planets named/shown in the movies. Only having 4 classes per side really kills replayability for me. I will probably end up having maybe 2 classes on each side, and not the ones that are almost cookie cutter of the other side's class (really there's only like 5 classes).
Using an IP for a MMO is a dual-edged sword. It gives you instant recognition and a fan base. However, it also raises the expectations through the roof. Plus, there's nothing worse than an IP fan that has had thier IP ruined.
Well said, Gravarg. For SWTOR the dual-edged sword is doubly sharp as the fans have had to endure not just the bad prequels but even an earlier SW MMO disaster. Hopefully a company like Bioware have the ability to design a great game AND tie in the Star Wars universe to it. What worries me about that is some of the things you mentoned, we will get to see only a limited amount of the SW universe (though frankly that is just as true of the films) and they are keeping the races to the most human like to ease the amount of meshing, boning and animating they need to do. Something they possibly could have had the extra talent to work on if they weren't trying so hard to push their epic story angle.
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
Personally, IP MMOs are my favorite type... as long as the IP is significant enough.
My best example is LOTRO VS Rift. At their core, they are pretty similar. Autoattack, use abilities. I played rift for about a week and was über bored. I had grown bored of this years ago when I quit WoW, and I generally wrote off any MMO with this combat system. Then I tried LOTRO and loved it. I feel the difference was the richness of the IP, and the whole "Seeing the sights" feel of the Lord of the Rings locations.
In Rift, an origional IP, I felt like everything was uninspired and generic. In Lotro, I feel like I'm seeing fantasy history. Theres lots of ways you can argue against this, I'm just saying how I felt. The IP was what made the difference. Not to mention I enjoy LOTR's rare-magic style. That example is a little more specific than the first, but still, IP based. I also loved Warhammer Online for a good 4 months just because I feverishly play 40K tabletop and dig the lore. When I stopped subbing and stepped back, WAR is WAY not my game. I hate PvP. But the IP drew me in, and I played an Orc (like my tabletop army) with glee JUST to feel "Orky". Other games just annoy me when I play an Orc becuase I just wish they were like Warhammer.
So anyway, 40K MMO: Excited. I dislike the 2 faction, but I am very willing to overlook that for a few months just to run around in the 40K universe. (Wether its longer than few months will of course depend on the game itself)
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-Been there, done that: Xsyon, WoW, EVE, Maplestory, City of Heroes, Guild Wars, Warhammer Online, FF11, Rift
-Currently playing: Not MMOs
-Wants to check out: SWTOR, Dark Millennium
Check out what Jack Emmert (current CEO of Cryptic) was studying in college. If I remember correctly, he had a Master's in ancient history, and another in literature.
"Oh my, how horrible, someone is criticizing a MMO. Oh yeah, that is what a forum is about, looking at both sides. You rather have to be critical of anything in this genre as of late because the track record of these major studios has just been appalling." -Ozmodan