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What happed to the RPG part of MMORPG?
garrin
Member UncommonPosts: 7
I think we have lost something in this genre, namely the RPG part of MMORPG. Companies aren't making MMORPGs anymore. They are making MMOs. Rift, and other games, are really no different than say Halo. Where you get on, fight with others for a while, and leave.
I think we have lost something in this genre, namely the RPG part of MMORPG. Companies aren't making MMORPGs anymore. They are making MMOs. Rift, and other games, are really no different than say Halo. Where you get on, fight with others for a while, and leave. I want a real MMORPG, and the only way to it will happen is if the following stars align:
1) The world must be truly dynamic. Not like Rift where the destroyed village respawns in 3 minutes. This can be achieved in several ways. The easiest is to allow player building and development. The building of houses, guild halls, shops, etc. Mobs that truly wander. Having x monster always in y location is stupid. People just camp. Instead have the mobs roam, like to other locations with their food. If players build a city in a meadow where x mob used to graze, that group of mobs should migrate somewhere else. When you can go to Zam or WoWhead to simply look where something is, that sort of kills the whole thing.
2) Player made economy. Anything a player can use or equip should be made by players. No farming mobs or dungeons for that purple drop. Instead, rewards for such things should be in the form of recipes. Players would then be in control of everything. In this case, money should not drop off of creatures. When was the last time you saw a boar in a store buying Now-N-Laters? This would weed out the gold farmers.
3) True factions. As it is, most games have factions that you choose at character creation and that's it. You're in that faction for life, regardless of your behavior or anything. These also make it impossible for you fight people of the same faction. Factions and cities should have laws and consequences. For example, your neutral-good faction doesn't like PKing. But you do. So you are out harassing players 40 levels lower than you. That should earn you negative faction points that very quickly prevents you from entering faction cities. Thus making it hard to repair, use the AH, train skills, etc. Guards Kill on Sight. If your faction points go low enough, you get booted from the faction. In essence, you should start as a neutral player that has to work and prove your way into a faction that means something. 3) True factions. As it is, most games have factions that you choose at character creation and that's it. You're in that faction for life, regardless of your behavior or anything. These also make it impossible for you fight people of the same faction. Factions and cities should have laws and consequences. For example, your neutral-good faction doesn't like PKing. But you do. So you are out harassing players 40 levels lower than you. That should earn you negative faction points that very quickly prevents you from entering faction cities. Thus making it hard to repair, use the AH, train skills, etc. Guards Kill on Sight. If your faction points go low enough, you get booted from the faction. In essence, you should start as a neutral player that has to work and prove your way into a faction that means something. ..I have burned out on Rift. Maybe someday, I'll come back. But for now, I'm out.
</rant> But I just realized. We had a game that fit this description, Star Wars Galaxies. But then they Effed it up.
I have been playing since beta however, and over the past few weeks, here are the game-specific reasons that have driven me off:
1) There is a huge lack of content. It's hard to get into the story. With only 1 starting zone for each faction, and only 1 progression method through zones, this game gets stupid boring fast. Other games (WoW, cough cough) had 3 starting zones per faction at launch. Also, there were so many zones that you could level up several times through different zones and never repeat yourself. Also, WoW has a huge background story that the world is built around, so it's easy to follow. I realize Rift has to start somewhere, and I don't really fault them for not have 3 games before Rift to give Rift that background, but still... It feels like it was rushed to market without giving many things any thought, let alone planing.
2) Dungeons in general. They also add nothing to the story. Many people don't even know where the dungeons are located even though they have quested through the zones that the dungeons are in. The zones should give story lines and what not so it feels like you are in there for a reason other than to just loot stuff.
3) Newly added dungeon finder. This is the feature that I thought would save Rift for me. I know there were arguments on the official forums for and against a dungeon finder, but I love dungeon finders. In general, most MMOers play DPS and there are a limited number of tanks and healers. This usually makes waiting in a Finder Queue take a little longer for DPS players. This I understand. So, I have been playing my Tank in Rift and I am completely surprised and baffled that it takes me more than an hour usually to find a group with the dungeon finder. I mean really? in Merdian general chat, people say it's because most people still just LFG in chat, and that most people that run dungeons have a small pool of friends they use instead. Which makes sense, but an hour for a tank? Really? usualy, I run around questing while I wait for a dungeon, but in Rift, I would run around questing all night and sometime never get a dungeon, or get it right as I was logging out.
4) And let's face it. The whole "Dynamic Content" angle the company pushed is complete bullshit. They have taken that information off the website, but prior to release, it sounded so cool. "Imagine coming back months later to the village you leveled up in only to find it gone and destroyed." Well, that would happen, but it would only last 5 minutes... The village respawns.
So in conclusion, Rift has not provided the things I would need to see me through more than a few months. It seems as if Rift is another "Specialty" MMO where hardcore PvPers go, for example Shadowbane. No real content or story, just a decent combat system where people can go fight. No different really from a paintball course.
I think we have lost something in this genre, namely the RPG part of MMORPG. Companies aren't making MMORPGs anymore. They are making MMOs. Rift, and other games, are really no different than say Halo. Where you get on, fight with others for a while, and leave.
I want a real MMORPG, and the only way to it will happen is if the following stars align:
1) The world must be truly dynamic. This can be achieved in several ways. The easiest is to allow player building and development. The building of houses, guild halls, shops, etc. Mobs that truly wander. Having x monster always in y location is stupid. People just camp. Instead have the mobs roam, like to other locations with their food. If players build a city in a meadow where x mob used to graze, that group of mobs should migrate somewhere else. When you can go to Zam or WoWhead to simply look where something is, that sort of kills the whole thing.
2) Player made economy. Anything a player can use or equipment should be made by players. No farming mobs or dungeons for that purple drop. Instead, rewards for such things should be in the form of recipes. Players would then be in control of everything. In this case, money should not drop off of creatures. When was the last time you saw a boar in a store buying Now-N-Laters? This would weed out the gold farmers.
3) True factions. As it is, most games have factions that you choose at character creation and that's it. You're in that faction for life, regardless of your behavior or anything. These also make it impossible for you fight people of the same faction. Factions and cities should have laws and consequences. For example, your neutral-good faction doesn't like PKing. But you do. So you are out harassing players 40 levels lower than you. That should earn you negative faction points that very quickly prevents you from entering faction cities. Thus making it hard to repair, use the AH, train skills, etc. Guards Kill on Sight. If your faction points go low enough, you get booted from the faction. In essence, you should start as a neutral player that has to work and prove your way into a faction that means something.
Comments
/agree
Mess with the best, Die like the rest
I whole-heartedly agree with you; the PC Gaming generation as we once knew it is deteriorating into a console fanfare, what's the point of playing games on the PC if the game plays like a console game. The main reason I bought a PC in the first place was that the games were more in depth, more sophisticated and had more longevity. Now MMORPGs may as well be console games, as the game's designers seem to be more bothered about flashy graphics and not depth; which is what consoles are for.
Albeit games like Final Fantasy games were console games, so not all console games are like shallow.
It does seem that the better the technology gets, the better the game's graphics are, not the depth or sophistication of the game play or world dynamics.
I think that is why games like DDO and Everquest are coming back as they were the original pioneers of the genre; even Ryzom is F2P now and that is a sandbox dream of a game.
I remember playing a game called Warrior's of the Eternal Sun on my Mega Drive a very long time ago and this got me hooked on RPG games, when I finally got into PC gaming my first instance of a MMORPG was LOTRO, which I still play now.
Game's designer seem to be more bothered about making money -which is fair enough if they are a business, but so many people on this forum want a more involved game, why do the developers not deliver. Will this F2P era that is so prevalent now help change the genre.
I do think that I am maybe getting to old to play MMORPGs even though I am only mid 30s; I am finding it more difficult to enjoy the genre as I once did. Maybe a huge development will be needed in game mechanics or technology before we start to see games that we want to play again. Look at games like Minecraft, simple graphics, yet wild and addictive game mechanics.
Perhaps a marriage of RTS, RPG and GOD type games (Sim City etc) would work in the future when the technology can handle it.
Perhaps games take so much money to make nowadays, the game's developers just want to make an easy bet and cater for the people who want easy street.
It's hard to say as sometimes nostalgia can get in the way; but I do feel that the games are different.
Great post. I love to read people's opinions like this, thanks for posting.
Just for those who want to know what Warrior's of the Eternal Sun is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-toQlGnd7Y
Great days!
I think Xsyon and Wurm are close to what you are describing.
First of all you are basically asking for a sandbox mmo while the majority of the mmo-players are themepark-players (and thus the majority of mmos are themeparks, it's where the money is), although most of them would welcome more sandbox-y features in their themeparks.
Guild Wars 2 may not be a sandbox but it does promise something like that with it's Dynamic Events system which replaces quests as the main form of PvE content:
http://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/dynamic-events/dynamic-events-overview/
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dynamic_events_system
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1013691/Designing_Guild_Wars_2_Dynamic_Events
Such restricted game i would never play.
And im not even a pk or ganker, you yourself should deal with pkers/gankers or clans the ANTI vs RPK.
Total freedom thats what we need bring back the 100% RED server ala DARKTIDE and let players deal with gankers and pkers set up ANTI squads who hunt down RPK players, not some dumb gameplay mechanics who limit your freedom witch leads to devs make up rules not players NO THX.
And on a short note PC is for nice graphics not consoles PC can have beautiful graphics and deep gameplay consoles can't.
MMORPGs have the same core elements (stats, progression, combat, story) that videogame RPGs have had since they started making videogame RPGs. So I'm not seeing where modern MMORPGs lack RPG.
If you have the opinion that features X, Y, and Z are fun, that's great -- but let's not pretend that without features X, Y, and Z a game isn't an RPG because that's wrong.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
For the OP, take a look at Citadel of Sorcery; its still in its relative infancy, but it has some of the things you are looking for.
Greystaff Legends RPG
None of those three criteria listed by the OP exist in traditional offline RPGs. Are pre-internet RPGs missing the RPG in their games as well?
Does not sound too bad as long as there are significant control measures in to deal with griefers and the roaming bands of gankers. Trusting a community to police itself is to me a little foolish. Relying on other people to do the right thing and act with some civility is delusional in the real world why would it work online?
That was my reaction as well. I started mainly with PnP RPGs like D&D and Shadowrun and those games are traditionally PvE focused, don't really have crafting and campaigns tend to be quite themepark like.
The distinction needs to made on the objective of the game, thats where things have changed. In the traditional RPG, the focus was on the story, you played the story, to complete the story, becoming a part of the story. In the current MMORPG the story means practically nothing to your game play sessions, they are all about the progression, about obtaining the best gear, the best build, the best guild.
As long as the current MMORPG story is worth as little as it is now there will be little comparison to the RGPs of old. And yeah I know some of you wont 'get' what I'm saying, some of you will. If you had played PnP D&D from back in the day, you would understand. You didnt sit around in that smoke filled room for 14 hours on a Saturday night to see if you got 3 new peices of armor, and if you did you sure dont remember that armor now do you? Nope, you remember the story, what you did with your friends in that story, what they did in it. Same goes for the offline RPG of old, you remember the story it had....and your accomplishments in that story.
/agreed
I guess we need new terms like for example MMO-Action-RPG and MMO-Lore-RPG
I agree. That was part of the point I was trying to make. The original concept of an RPG was that it was an interactive, collaborative form of storytelling. Video games took that to a new level, adding active combat and fun progression, while, for the most part, maintaining the storytelling aspect, even if much of it wasn't a "collaborative effort" (although I think many Bioware games do a great job at getting the player to help create and advance the story.) But the OP makes no mention of the storytelling foundation of RPGs. In fact, the 3 criteria he lists have little to do with traditional RPGs at all.
Ha! "Policing itself" is the only possible situtation IRL. There are no GM's in the real world. Only in games can you have some external entity enforcing rules.
The rpg elements get dumbed down to please the masses in order to sell your game to a wider audience. Unfortunately mmos are all about the money and not for the love of gaming.
There is GM's of sorts in RL. It's called police, government, etc.
Outside of that though people have become desensitized and spoiled with things these days. Such as with mortal kombat and sub-zero ripping someones spine out and pushing foreward the game rating system. Violence in video games itself is just common place. A real RPG style game, even in the MMO world itself. Will go unnoticed for the simple reason. We are saturated with quick fast paced games. Not the slow tedium of RPG's so no ones going to truly notice a real RPG. We have only a handful of great classic RPG games out of 100's of thousands of games. We aren't spoiled on RPG games so when we finally get a REAL one will enjoy it for what it is.
Before anyone says Witcher, Dragon Age, or Mass Effect. Those are softcore porn simulators who substitute the award of adventure with sex and action, something that would only excite people with ADHD and can't focus on anything for long periods of time. Real RPG's are about adventure, story, and growing and learning with the character through his trials and tribulations. Not about base materialism and selfish gain.
When did you start playing "old school" MMO's. World Of Warcraft?
To the OP , is the RPG what is missing in mmorpgs? I would argue the otherwise, the MMO is more lacking than the RPG. RPG can take many forms and played differently. But the MMO is pretty consitant, it is massive or its not.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
Sounds like playing that game would be a job and I do't want to pay companies to work for them. I'll pass.
"If you're going to act like a noob, I'll treat you like one." -Caskio
Adventurers wear fancy pants!!!
Don't blame consoles vs PC.
The Witcher 2 is a great RPG and is still very much based in an action format that is fine for a console interface.
The fact is "The Wticher 2" is a far better RPG than even Bioware's latest more PC-like game Dragon Age 2 (in my opinion of course). Yet DA to DA2 they made the game more "console-like" but Wticher to Witcher 2 kept the same core gameplay but simply changed some balancing and character development.
Its the mentality and the story and the context and the consequences of what youdo. Both Witcher and Witcher 2 have these things depsite their flaws and despite the action-y interface and it makes them twice the RPG of many other games.
That is really dependant on the player and not necessarily the game. I remember my time in WoW for the stories I was part of and the people I interacted with. I barely remember what gear I had since it was secondary to my enjoyment. Other people cannot seperate these things and focus on the gear and status as the embodiment of their role in the game.
The OP is trying to use pre-CU SWG as an example of the features he is espousing. To me those features of SWG were extremely trivial. My story in SWG focused on my guild building and expaning our own city on Dantooine. That was the story I chose to play a role in and that's what I focused on.
MMOs became mainstream and most consumers don't have the imagination or desire to RP. Therefore, MMORPGs have merely become MOGs.
Oh that's easy, I know a game that has all of that, here you go: http://www.uoherald.com/!
But seriously...it's sad. MMORPGs used to be designed with actual RPG features in mind then that all went away in favor of focusing completely on character advancement (grind).
It's kind of like the developers decided that character advancement was the most desirable RPG feature, and just got rid of most everything else.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
I agree wholeheartedly with most of the posters on this thread. I'm only now returning to the MMORPG scene after an abdsence of almost two years. It is quite saddening to see that this aspect of the genre is still neglected. Don't get me wrong, I really enjoy MMORPG's, but it can be frustrating when I think of the gaming possibilties that creative developers could give us.
I'm an old pen and paper rpg'er. Then when I got older, and both myself and my fellow players 'grew up', I still wanted the pen and paper experience, and found it, albeit at a much lesser extent, in crpgs. Whilst playing these, I used to wonder what it would be like if game's designers could develope a vibrant, living world where the pen & paper, old-style rpg was recreated.
Then I discovered the term MMORPG and saw clips of EQ2. I was completely new to the genre, and watching these trailors, I thought I had discovered my 'Holy Grail' of gaming. A few months later, and I realised that MMORPG's had actually very little to do with old-style rpg's. Instead I found that nearly all of these games followed a standarised pattern. Everything was based mostly on stats, and the eternal grind to better them. Rather than taking part in a virtual reality style game where each and every player had a genuine, player based society, with proper stories and quests that meant something, I found that the genre had resorted to a cosy formula. Where the rpg meant taking part in a seemingly endless string of banal quests aimed at merely killing x amount of mobs, or finding a certain target. No matter how much they were dressed up in the game, every quest amounted to about one in five type of things.
Of course I could use my imagination and with like-minded players I could try to immerse myself in something I wish the game was, it was still irritating that the full possiblities of this genre were not being realised. With some imagination, and application, true MMORPG's could exist. I think Bioware have been the closest to realise this, although I have not followed how they have been doing with their SKOTOR game.
When I've mentioned this in the past, people have refered me to old-skool games such as OU. I've still not tried that out, and I've heard bad things about Darkfall (which was another game that I thought moght cater for me). Maybe there has been something released in the past two years that I am not aware about. (If so, could you please tell me about it?).
BTW, I am not saying that MMORPG's should be like this. However, surely one day there shall be one that caters towards this end of the market. It would mean a financial gambit on the part of the developers though, which nobody seems to want to take, especially as the standard format seems to pay-off.
I feel your pain brother.
I think the original UO would have catered to you, even post trammel probably. But alas, UO today is a shade of its former self, the magic is gone. As for Darkfall, I would not recommend it. It's basically a gankfest/grindfest.
To give you an idea of what it's like, mosts posts on the Darkfall boards concern more experienced players discussing how to make the game just slightly less painful to newer players so that they have "sheep" to kill.
If you like sci-fi, I've heard good things about EvE. But I tried it and couldn't get into it...I hated the point and click interface. I probably would have liked it if it played like Wing Commander. EvE fans don't kill me, this is just my opinion.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Aye mate - I have tried EVE Online a couple of times, but found the tutorial bit, too long-winded. And didn't like the interface either.
Not a big sci-fi fan, and therefore did not have the patience to persevere, which is a shame really, as I think that once you get into it, EVE would be a great game.