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Georg explains why its impossible to completely avoid the story
GeorgZoeller General Discussion -> Epic Rewards for Finishing Class Quest?
Quote:
Originally Posted by vicioushalcyon  Mr. Zoeller, Since you already sort of addressed it, how much replay value will there be in replaying the same class, but making different Light/Dark choices? Does it change the story in any significant ways? Or is it more like Mass Effect 1, where you can do or say what ever you want, but the galaxy gets saved either way? |
There is definitely replay value in going the 'other' path. Quests change, there are different cinematics for different choices, rewards can differ and some parts of the story change significantly. Still it is one story, not two, so it is definitely similar to say, Mass Effect where ... spoiler ... you can save the council or get the killed, but ultimately save the citadel.
Choice in our games means that the player gets to decide how to approach the story and individual decisions, but we're not creating a freeform narrative with unlimited options, that'd be a bit too expensive.
To address a few other things:
(a) Don't expect to avoid the main story completely. You can't. If you never finish your story on the capital planet, you never get a ship and won't ever see any other planets. Which means you will end up unable to level up further as you'll outlevel your planet. In fact, I'd go as far as saying that players who think they want to skip the main story will quickly realize that they're not going to be ever competitive. It's a BioWare game and story is one of our top features.
(b) The main story line continues very close to max level. Even after that, we have quests, group quests, Flashpoints, PvP to level up with. Random mob grinding is not a preferred progression feature in our game. In fact, it's inefficient.
The reason is simple: To protect the player from themselves. Players gravitate towards the fastest/most efficient way to level and will repeat the most mind numbing boring activities over and over if they think it's the most efficient way. On the way, most will bore themselves to tears and ultimately quit the game. Hence the decision to make grinding mobs for XP much less efficient than the other ways to gain XP.
(c) If you play very completist (all quests, all group quests, PvP, space missions, etc.) you will in fact end up above level. However, since your class story ends before a lot of the world arc and other missions on a planet, you can then, at your choice, skip parts of the planet and move on. I've tried and it's almost impossible to outlevel your class quest completely, because it's just an inefficient way to play.
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GeorgZoeller General Discussion -> Epic Rewards for Finishing Class Quest?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orcron Well thanks for clearing that up. But why is it you made the class quest far more richer with goodies so to speak then taking side routes to level up? Such as flash point running or random mob killing an so on. |
I wouldn't say richer - after all Flashpoints, PvP and other activities have great rewards as well... just not things like companions and such.
As for random mob killing ... that's not the game we're making. You can do it, for sure, but it's not going to be nearly as effective as questing or participating in Flashpoints, PvP and other activities.
Camping the spawns of random mobs is a part of the MMO legacy, grind, that we don't really see having a place in Star Wars: The Old Republic.
(As someone who once wasted hours camping pygmy goblins ins Dark Age of Camelot, I am strongly in favor of killing that kind of 'gameplay' with fire).
also for anyone that may have been concerned about lack of enviromental cover being used in tatooine videos:
StephenReid General Discussion -> Darth Hater: No cover locations on Tatooine?
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnRoy This would suck if left in the game. I want to play a smuggler and I would much prefer to use natural cover than the somewhat goofy looking "laser fence." I hope this is a bug or that they simply haven't "cover mapped" Tatooine yet. The worst case scenario is that natural cover has been stripped from the game and the laser fence is all that's left. If that's the case, then bye bye Gunslinger for me. I really hope this isn't the case. |
That is not the case. As we communicated to some during E3 (but I guess, not all), Tatooine just hasn't had a complete 'cover pass' yet.
Natural cover has not been removed from the game.
Comments
This just reconfirms what I already know about BW and how they create content. So nothing new really. I guess it just shows how many MMO players don't have a clue about story content in games I guess.
I do like the fact that the story continues just before and after level cap. I am hoping that may be a part of end game other than raids and PvP. Long multi hour story chains that are difficult to complete with decent rewards based on choice would be a part of end game activities for once. That is probably wishfull thinking, but you never know.
How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them?
R.A.Salvatore
I have to say that the thought of playing an MMO that has an engaging story line like Mass Effect or Dragon Age gets me freaking PSYCHED!!! Part of the reason I don't bother with quest text in MMOs is that, while there is a little bit of a story in it, it isn't particularly interesting.
If you give us Bioware's patented awesome story arcs then it becomes more like a single player RPG that you have multiple ways to progress in, including teaming up with other players.
I have to say though, that it is a little irritating to know that, even if I am using PVP to level up, I will have to take detours at certain points to advance the correct story lines so I can get a ship, or get to a different planet or whatever. It is a minor issue though.
Currently playing:
Rift
Played:
SWToR, Aion,EQ, Dark Age of Camelot
World of Warcraft, AoC
I think it would be a little bit of a waste of time to create story content if players could completely avoid story.
A game centered around story doesn't let you avoid it... who'd a thunk it.
They did state a while ago that you get your ship when you leave the origin world (it's how you get off of them) and that takes about 7 hours to complete if you start right away and go straight for the ship.
Alternatively you could have someone take you on their ship to a planet and PvP that way, it's just you won't have a ship to fly to other planets on your own.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
I can see his reasoning. Even in my early days of mmos finding the ideal grind spot was key to leveling effectively. But after 10+ years of exercising my medulla oblongata and making mmo leveling part of it's function, I'm happy with switching back to my frontal lobe. Case in point: When I played AoC, the quest line in Tortage was by far my more pleasant experience of the leveling process. The story was intriguing, the voice acting added to it's immersiveness and leveling was in the back of my mind.
This "forced" RPing is what is needed in MMORPGs again. Not so much of the give me 200 characters to make a bio, but actually making in-game decisions that reflect on how your character is perceived by potential companions, npcs and hopefully other players. I mean what is a movie without SOME character development?
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
lol would be funny to see hitch hikers begging for rides
This game is shaping up to be less open and more hand-holding the player along mandatory quest chains than even WoW.
Not surprising considering it's a Bioware game though.
If that's not your thing that's fine, there's room for both open-ended games as well as more linear ones. It wasn't really a secret this game would have a linear path to follow, that doesn't mean you can't take a break and do your own thing when you get a ship and feel like it.
As was (well) said in a previous post. It just comes down to a question of do you want a leveling experience that feels like leveling; or, do you want one that gives enough in the presentation department, to put leveling in the back of your mind. I much prefer playing to see where the story leads me, compared to killing things over and over again simply to see a number increase.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Mandatory things bad, yes. But it isn't more hand holding than Wow.
Wows quests can be solved in one way without choices, you can agree to do them or not, that is it. You just can't get more hand holding than so.
First, it doesn't surprise me that Bioware is strongly "encouraging" the player to follow the story, it really is DAO in MMO form after all.
But these comments I found interesting, they go far in explaining the mindset of the people who work at Bioware.
First, they haven't played MMO's for years (too busy coding I guess) or they'd know the era of camp grinding mobs ended around Nov, 2004 or so.
It is true, with the solo gameplay design of today's MMO's any sort of grinding, camp or quest is mind-numbing and I'm sure many players quit over it.
I never considered the camp grinding in DAOC a waste of time, whether it was in PUG's or with my Guild, there were great opportunities for socialization that I sorely miss in modern MMO's, but obviously Georg wasn't a fan.
While the story driven approach should prove fun in some ways, so far it's looking like the design will do nothing to reduce the "solo" feel most MMO's today have, which is probably OK since socialization in MMO's is a pretty low priority it seems for most modern MMO gamers.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I think this is more to due with repetition than anything else, people have done it far to long. I don't think it's that people want to solo more, I think it's that people are just sick of the current design and how leveling is handled. They want to get through it as fast as possible and move on to whatever they prefer at higher levels of play.
Back in the day it was all still "new" to those playing, people just liked the concept of playing with so many others. Whatever you were doing felt exciting due to this.
I know for me personally after moving on to galaxies and playing for a few years, whenever I tried a new game, I just couldn't get through the journey process. I'd either fall back to SWG to play how I liked to play (guild basis). Rather than meeting all new people, looking for good guilds, finding a solid playstyle I liked, etc...
All of that felt as much a grind as camp grinding. Maybe that's just me though. At least this time around A: leveling will be more akin to playing an SP-RPG, B: The SWG community I loved so much will have a good showing at launch in TOR.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I remember them talking about going on one ship to another planet as part of a team, yours or a teammates, but I don't know as though it would be allowed now if you didn't have your own ship as well. I have a feeling this is another thing we have to wait until we get more info on.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
seriously need me some random weather effects
rain cloud, storms,
why this wasn't built in from the ground up is a tiny bit unsettling
what they had to leave out weather effects for the sake of storytelling?
I want to own property too
Some good points, but that one is bugging me. There really is no difference in camp grinding, and dungeon grinding. Almost every game requires you to grind the same dungeon, over and over again to get good gear or emblems to buy gear.
there are weather effects.
http://www.swtor.com/news/news-article/20110520
Q: Are there weather condition changes on planets? - Fyror
A: Each planet has localized weather conditions. Depending on the world the weather you will encounter will include rain, snow, sandstorms and many other unfavorable conditions; it just happens to be a constant for those worlds. For example, if you’re on Hoth you can expect moderate to heavy snowfall with the occasional blizzard.
the more I read the more surprised I am why they even bothered creating MMO instead of next Kotor sequels (with co-op since Mass Effect is going that way)
it'd be much cheaper and much less controversial and more appreciated
well they couldnt ask for monthly fees if it was singleplayer .. seems like the only reason, really
I think I actually spent way more time reading and theorycrafting about MMOs than playing them
I find it odd, that BioWare is capable of adding weather condition changes to SW:TOR but is not capable of implenting day/night cycles.
I think it's more the case that sandbox oriented fans don't like anything that propagates the themepark design model. As for making an MMORPG, why not? Let's be objective about it, shall we, SWTOR will have the main features and aspects that other themepark MMO's like WoW, LotrO, Rift, Aion and others have and in some cases more, and you don't hear people doubt that those are MMORPG's or say that those should have been co-op games.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
http://darthhater.com/2011/03/12/saturday-developer-qa/
Will a Day/Night cycle be in the game?
DE: No. It was a technical decision. Scenes look better if lighting is consistent.
JO: multiple worlds present in game with different # of suns/moons, so it became too difficult to make it work.
which isn't to say they will all be the same:
http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=5682208#post5682208
GeorgZoeller
Joined: May 2010
03.12.2011 , 08:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by soupe
I was really looking forward to seeing Coruscant at night. All the lights on the skyscrapers, all the little speeders flying about... But now that not happening because theres no day/night cycles! WHYYYYYYYY BIOWARE!!
Interestingly enough, it is possible to have night areas on Coruscant without having day/night cycles. In fact, it helps with the visual variety of our planets to be able to have different zones have different lighting.
http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=5696135#post5696135
GeorgZoeller
Joined: May 2010
03.13.2011 , 05:10 PM
Time to clarify:
There is areas of Coruscant, such as the Justicar District, which are at perpetual night time (although on Coruscant, getting deep down near the ground of the planet means there isn't much daylight coming down there anyway due to the buildings).
The area around the Senate Tower is at sunset, and so on.
I appreciate them being open with this info. The game seems not to be for me, completely opposite style from what I enjoy, but I truly do appreciate their willingness to be honest up front, unlike so many companies these days.
"The reason is simple: To protect the player from themselves. Players gravitate towards the fastest/most efficient way to level and will repeat the most mind numbing boring activities over and over if they think it's the most efficient way. On the way, most will bore themselves to tears and ultimately quit the game. Hence the decision to make grinding mobs for XP much less efficient than the other ways to gain XP."
They don't think players can be trusted to play the game right, so they're going to force them to 'play it right'. That sounds exactly like hand holding to me.
As per SWTOR having multiple choices, it doesn't make the game any less hand-holding. Considering this is a bioware game, I'm pretty positive that you could probably just pick random options in dialogue and make it through without much issue. It's not like the game is going to play out like a King's Quest or Space Quest game where your choices really do matter, and if you did or didn't do something hours ago in gameplay you would be stuck in an impossible to move forward situation.
I don't see that in any MMORPG, where you're barred for hours from being able to continue forward the way you mean it.
I think what comes closest are the Investigations in TSW, where there are puzzles and mysterires of which a number of them you aren't even being able to solve alone, you need a guild or even a whole faction/server to solve some of those. But even there the devs have stated that this won't bar your ingame progress, those puzzle quests are optional and an alternate path of missions and quests.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I already know the logic of "mob killing isnt efficient xp" from Vanguard, and I agree with it.
I don't really agree with him that players need to be protected from themselves (that really feels like the AI from I Robot)like he states, but i do agree that players will take whatever is the most efficent route in this game regardless if it's fun or not.
However the point about making choices and it not really mattering (i guess this is what you man by issue). Yeah you can't get stuck like you can in King's quest or the like (although those are different genre but whatever), making choices just willy nilly isn't a good idea either as you have companions in your group and those choices can change wether they like you or not, which can in turn affect how good at crafting they are.
Plus your choices will lock you out of certain titles if you make the ones that don't lead that way. Plus it alters the story in such a way that you may not be able to go down a certain path because of choices you made before, gives you different gear then you may want, and if you slip too far could change the abilities you have (though this won't affect too much how good you are, but hey you may want a certain ability that you could be locked out of because you made too many bad choices).
Granted none of this actually bars you or slaps you in the face and say no you did it wrong now your going to lose out, but picking things just willy nilly will affect you. I'm actually glad you don't encounter that anymore where if you forgot to hold your cursor over a pixel and pick up an item that you now have to go back X amount of hours to get that item and go through all thos puzzles you just solved so you have that mirror to fight off the beast at the end.
I will note that i don't care for the comment he made about the protecting myself from myself. I'm dang good at doing that already thank you. However i do understand when he says that the player will do whatever is the fastest to get the most experience regardless of fun and they'd prefer that fastest way to be doing the story they crafted.
Myself regarding the game, I never expected a sandbox type world, do anything you want to do, anytime you want to do it. I play sandbox games for those. However on that same note, it still stands that once you get off the origin world (takes about 7-10 hours) you can go grind mobs, do PvP, do world arcs, do flash points. Whatever you want. It's just that some of these may not be the most efficent way to level, and doing the quests and personal story is the most efficent. Not the only way, but the most efficient.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
This amuses me as well, while there may have been room for doubt at the beginning it's been clear for a while now that SWTOR is a fully fledged MMORPG. Add to the fact that most players spend most of their time solo levelling in MMOs these days it's even more bizarre that people are bashing Bioware for trying to make the levelling process much more interesting.
As to why not make another KOTOR, why in the world would EA and Bioware make a sci-fi RPG that would compete directly with Mass Effect? Bioware doesn't need the Star Wars or D&D IP to shift single player RPGS anymore, they have Commander Shepherd and Dragon Age these days.