Originally posted by vqly FYI: there was a movement from the playerbase to come here and vote, hence the high rating, which result in an explosion of new players to try the 2 weeks trial recently. And although a lot of people on that forum voiced their opinions on overhyping the game and not do ballot stuffing, there's no way for me to know wether the players voted honestly or not.As far as I am concern, the game in its present state has at least 1 to 3 months of enjoyment out of it (and of course more if you fall in love with some aspect of the game).I think you'll get your money worth just by trying out the 2 weeks trial and playing for a few months before moving on (unless mmorpgs are an "investment" to you, to which I say, invest smartly ;P)And you're right, rating don't mean jack I am sure there're aspect of EVE that kickass, and CoH, and EQ2. SoR deserves to be in the same class as them. It really surprises me few people actually KNOW about the game, just from reading some of the recent threads.My guess is that it gets overshadowed by EQ2, WoW, and GW release. (and bad marketing champaign).
The main problem with Ryzom is that it offers nothing that will keep the general MMO player interested. There are no real raids, no quests, no loot, no unique items, no dungeons. All the stuff that people love in MMO's is missing from Ryzom. Now the responce to that is "That's a good thing, the market is filled with games with that stuff. It's about time there was one that didn't have that stuff". I don't disagree with that. However if you are going to make a game without those things, you need to have things to replace them. This is where Ryzom fails horribly.
Originally posted by vqly FYI: there was a movement from the playerbase to come here and vote, hence the high rating, which result in an explosion of new players to try the 2 weeks trial recently. And although a lot of people on that forum voiced their opinions on overhyping the game and not do ballot stuffing, there's no way for me to know wether the players voted honestly or not.
I think they're voting honestly, but as I already pointed out, only those who like the game enough to continue their subscription are represented on the forum. Hardly a balanced sampling.
Originally posted by vqly I am sure there're aspect of EVE that kickass, and CoH, and EQ2. SoR deserves to be in the same class as them. It really surprises me few people actually KNOW about the game, just from reading some of the recent threads. My guess is that it gets overshadowed by EQ2, WoW, and GW release. (and bad marketing champaign).
People keep saying this, but I don't agree. Marketing is not the problem. Too many players have tried SoR and quit. The reason SoR gets overshadowed by other MMORPG's is because they are better, more polished, games, with much more to do. Just look at the reviews of the game put out by professional reviewers on gamerankings.com, for a more realistic view (and no, the game hasn't changed all that much since those reviews).
There really are a lot of people that don't know about SoR, not the faintest hinting of what it is. Note the comments and players elicit Hi threads and comments in the Pub board on this site with players asking what this game is all about, and this is only after SoR went on the Hot List and start getting some attention.
The amount of players leaving the game is pretty much the same as any others. i.e. the retention rates are about the same as that of WoW, EQ2, EVE, CoH, etc.
People will get bored of mmorpgs and leave unless they found something they fell in love with, such as a group of people they play with or certain feature of the game they really like.
It's just that SoR take a bigger hit from each losing sub because they don't have the brand name pull of big playerbase in the first place.
Ryzom right now is like a revolutionary electric car. Looking at the car its stunning. The styling of the body is incredible, inside there are soft leather seats, a powerful sound system, duel climate controls, the speedometer says the engine can go up to 120mph, its advertised that you dont need to ever plug it in or give it gas.
Then you sit in it. You realize that the sound system can only output mono-sound. Only one climate control can work at a time. The engine caps out at 60mph and you are told that it does indeed need some gas.
When you heard about the car, the lead designer said the following: I decided to make this car because I was tired of the same car we usual drive. Everyday people climb into their cars and play their lousy sound systems, have to worry about fuel levels and cost, are limited by the speed and power of the engine. I want to change all that. Imagine a car that has sound so realistic that you think your in the recording studio. Imagine never having to worry about filling your tank or pumping gas again. Imagine where the minute you step on the gas pedal you are at the speed you want. Thats what this car is all about. We have some exciting times ahead; wont you join us and drive one?
You hear the current drivers say the following: This car is truly revolutionary. The styling is stunning. The interior is one that you would only expect royalty to have. While its true that the car can only go 60mph and requires gas, they just spent 6 months building a new engine that will make it go 120 and be gas free. And while the ride currently is no different than any other car, the sound system they have in development will change that. When that sound system gets put into the car, boy will the car rock. Not to mention recently there has been a lot more emails from the company telling us great things are coming.
Originally posted by vqly The amount of players leaving the game is pretty much the same as any others. i.e. the retention rates are about the same as that of WoW, EQ2, EVE, CoH, etc.
I very much doubt that. None of those games had server merges in their first year.
It's just that SoR take a bigger hit from each losing sub because they don't have the brand name pull of big playerbase in the first place.
EVE, COH, Dark age of Camelot, Anarchy Online, Guild Wars etc etc didn't have any brand name to pull in the punters either and they're thriving. Licences are the exception in MMO gaming. SOR did poorly primarily because it was released at the wrong time, half the game was missing and there's not enough to do. The very early and all too long open beta probably didn't help either.
The main problem with Ryzom is that it offers nothing that will keep the general MMO player interested. There are no real raids, no quests, no loot, no unique items, no dungeons. All the stuff that people love in MMO's is missing from Ryzom.
Now the responce to that is "That's a good thing, the market is filled with games with that stuff. It's about time there was one that didn't have that stuff". I don't disagree with that. However if you are going to make a game without those things, you need to have things to replace them. This is where Ryzom fails horribly.
I don't know that I agree with this. There is plenty of this. You just need to make it on your own. There are many caves that you can explore with reqards that are yet to be determined awaiting at the end. There are many bosses that drop UBER loot, you just need to then craft that loot into an UBER item.
This game is community driven and will always be, even when more of te story line items are included, and we influence the world more.
This is not a go to this guy(NPC) and he will set you off on some cool thing. This is talk to others, see what you like best. Hear abotu that cool thing, go try and do it, etc. It is place where you make what you want to do. Many people cannot handle this, feeling lost, etc.
Originally posted by vqly The amount of players leaving the game is pretty much the same as any others. i.e. the retention rates are about the same as that of WoW, EQ2, EVE, CoH, etc.
I also doubt this very much. Where did you get this information? My guess is that the number of paying subscribers, never all that high to begin with, continues to trend downwards. Trial members don't change the revenue picture for Nevrax unless they become paying subscribers.
I agree 100% with Sparky2004 about the reasons why SoR is having problems. Lack of advertising is not a significant factor.
"The main problem with Ryzom is that it offers nothing that will keep the general MMO player interested. There are no real raids, no quests, no loot, no unique items, no dungeons. All the stuff that people love in MMO's is missing from Ryzom. Now the responce to that is "That's a good thing, the market is filled with games with that stuff. It's about time there was one that didn't have that stuff". I don't disagree with that. However if you are going to make a game without those things, you need to have things to replace them. This is where Ryzom fails horribly."
See, to me, the 'lack' of most of those things is a major plus for Ryzom.
Raids? We do have the occasional invasion, and when there's PvP it exists for plot reasons, not for griefing. Outposts should, in theory, add to that.
Quests? No thanks. Instanced repeated content. The Encyclopaedia and recently updated mission system is enough for that.
Loot? The loot actually makes sense (though it'd be nice if homin enemies dropped items occasionally). Phat Lewt kills a lot of games and breaks credibility. The existing loot, Boss Armour, causes no end of grief and the game would be better off without it.
Same for unique items.
Dungeons? Boring as hell (see quests) and they're not appropriate to the world. Not that you likely won't see them with R2, which is a shame IMO.
It does fill the gaps, you just seemed strangely resistant to seeing it, despite your sig file.
"I very much doubt that. None of those games had server merges in their first year."
Its a very different game, more emotive, more intellectual, more creative.
For some reason that didn't seem to spark with the US playerbase who are also more unreasonable and strident than Europeans, IMO.
You'd think the US would have been the biggest market, given its larger size, number of players etc, but the other servers AFAIK were all doing fine. Certainly we had no problems on the Euro-English server with players pre merge.
To me that says more about american game players than ryzom.
Originally posted by GRIMACHU "The main problem with Ryzom is that it offers nothing that will keep the general MMO player interested. There are no real raids, no quests, no loot, no unique items, no dungeons. All the stuff that people love in MMO's is missing from Ryzom. Now the responce to that is "That's a good thing, the market is filled with games with that stuff. It's about time there was one that didn't have that stuff". I don't disagree with that. However if you are going to make a game without those things, you need to have things to replace them. This is where Ryzom fails horribly."See, to me, the 'lack' of most of those things is a major plus for Ryzom.Raids? We do have the occasional invasion, and when there's PvP it exists for plot reasons, not for griefing. Outposts should, in theory, add to that.Quests? No thanks. Instanced repeated content. The Encyclopaedia and recently updated mission system is enough for that.Loot? The loot actually makes sense (though it'd be nice if homin enemies dropped items occasionally). Phat Lewt kills a lot of games and breaks credibility. The existing loot, Boss Armour, causes no end of grief and the game would be better off without it.Same for unique items.Dungeons? Boring as hell (see quests) and they're not appropriate to the world. Not that you likely won't see them with R2, which is a shame IMO.It does fill the gaps, you just seemed strangely resistant to seeing it, despite your sig file.
Again the fact those things are missing from Ryzom would be very big benefit if there were things in the game to take the place of them. One of their biggest selling points was the invasion system they have. This would be a great replacement for normal raids if they occured on a semi normal basis. They don't. How hard would it be to have a yubo overpopulation problem one week, then next have some npc's attack a city, the next have a kitin invasion?
For quests, the encylopedia would be enough of a replacement if it was fully implemented and rites were added on a regular basis. This isn't the case. So far the encylopedia is missing the ability to complete any of the albums. As that's missing so is the special content that players are suppose to get from finishing an album. Having a mission system where you can only put in around 20 in ten months just does not cut it.
Loot. I don't disagree that the idea of having animals only drop animal parts is a bad thing, it fits very well actually. The problem is that the game lacks the ability to find or obtain special items in its place. As you pointed out the npc tribes (except 4) don't drop any weapons, armor, or other things. Why can't they make it so when you kill a Zora Kovan you get the weapon they attacked you with? Or why can't they add in the ability to find items buried in the ground while harvesting?
Dungeons and instances. They don't have to be actual dungeons. Why can't they have a teleport in the Secret Kami Oasis that takes you to an instanced Kami area? Something like that would fit and add so much to the game.
Originally posted by GRIMACHU "I very much doubt that. None of those games had server merges in their first year."Its a very different game, more emotive, more intellectual, more creative.For some reason that didn't seem to spark with the US playerbase who are also more unreasonable and strident than Europeans, IMO.You'd think the US would have been the biggest market, given its larger size, number of players etc, but the other servers AFAIK were all doing fine. Certainly we had no problems on the Euro-English server with players pre merge.To me that says more about american game players than ryzom.
It didn't spark with the US playerbase because it was missing pretty much everything it said it would have. If it had the features it promoted then US players would of kept playing.
Again the fact those things are missing from Ryzom would be very big benefit if there were things in the game to take the place of them. One of their biggest selling points was the invasion system they have. This would be a great replacement for normal raids if they occured on a semi normal basis. They don't. How hard would it be to have a yubo overpopulation problem one week, then next have some npc's attack a city, the next have a kitin invasion?
For quests, the encylopedia would be enough of a replacement if it was fully implemented and rites were added on a regular basis. This isn't the case. So far the encylopedia is missing the ability to complete any of the albums. As that's missing so is the special content that players are suppose to get from finishing an album. Having a mission system where you can only put in around 20 in ten months just does not cut it.
Loot. I don't disagree that the idea of having animals only drop animal parts is a bad thing, it fits very well actually. The problem is that the game lacks the ability to find or obtain special items in its place. As you pointed out the npc tribes (except 4) don't drop any weapons, armor, or other things. Why can't they make it so when you kill a Zora Kovan you get the weapon they attacked you with? Or why can't they add in the ability to find items buried in the ground while harvesting?
Dungeons and instances. They don't have to be actual dungeons. Why can't they have a teleport in the Secret Kami Oasis that takes you to an instanced Kami area? Something like that would fit and add so much to the game.
Very nice post Raynes. It's a good breakdown of the general "no content" complaint which irritates so many :P
I don't understand why instance areas were not implemented at the beginning either. It's obvious they can do it since we have instanced apartments/guild halls; hell the whole portal system makes this a logical addition.
Never was a fan of the encyclopedia but I can see it's benefit for people who like to solo or want a more structured gaming experience. We need to feed that demographic so the rest of us can enjoy the open play system
Don't know about digging up loot on this tree world but finding more than just jewels on tribes should be implemented.
"Ahh but other games have that!" Is not a strong counterargument guys. What's wrong with taking some of the best features of other games and modifying it to fit in your own? Developers do it all the time, and Ryzom is no different. They just seem to be taking their sweet time in implementing them. Lack of resources, more focus on their engine sales? I don't know... I certainly hope not because that would mean they're just playing us all for suckers.
Originally posted by GRIMACHU Its a very different game, more emotive, more intellectual, more creative. For some reason that didn't seem to spark with the US playerbase who are also more unreasonable and strident than Europeans, IMO. You'd think the US would have been the biggest market, given its larger size, number of players etc, but the other servers AFAIK were all doing fine. Certainly we had no problems on the Euro-English server with players pre merge. To me that says more about american game players than ryzom.
This is sophistry. Basically you are saying that because the game is fairly empty, you (the player) has to provide all the content to make it more interesting. This in turn somehow is more "emotive, more intellectual, more creative". As George Orwell said: "Less is More". Since this is the reverse of the truth, there is nothing wrong with US players, who are simply saying the emperor has no clothes. You need to cut through your own rhetoric and you would see the same thing.
I doubt that Nevrax is doing well financially on any of it's servers, but that is speculation. Do you have any specific information in that regard?
"It didn't spark with the US playerbase because it was missing pretty much everything it said it would have. If it had the features it promoted then US players would of kept playing."
I tend to prefer the 'whining child' explanation. Confronted by something different and imperfect (And not as imperfect as AO, I was around for AO's launch) it was toys out the pram, whereas other national groups don't seem to have had remotely the same issue.
V.strange.
Difference in playstyle, expectation and willingness to try something new.
"This is sophistry. Basically you are saying that because the game is fairly empty, you (the player) has to provide all the content to make it more interesting. This in turn somehow is more "emotive, more intellectual, more creative". As George Orwell said: "Less is More". Since this is the reverse of the truth, there is nothing wrong with US players, who are simply saying the emperor has no clothes. You need to cut through your own rhetoric and you would see the same thing. I doubt that Nevrax is doing well financially on any of it's servers, but that is speculation. Do you have any specific information in that regard? Doctor Z."
No, sophistry is arguing a point you don't believe in to show that an argument can be made, or a deliberate lying argument.
Ryzom is more of a sandbox game, as evidenced by their open source commitment and the Ryzom Ring.
The game has a rich background, a living ecosystem which is more complex than many give credit for and everything that occurs is significant, every event, every participation, every friendship, every clash. It all means something, nothing is repeated, if you make an impact in game, you make an impact in game.
US players seem to want McDonalds, they want everything the same, they want everythign familiar, they don't want to be challenged, they don't want to work for reward. There's no investment in the game (at least not in significant numbers compared to the whiners). Why the european attitude should be so different somewhat befuddles me. Why should they be more willing to accept, more willing to work at something, more willing to roleplay and more willing to see past the veneer of pointless 'content' that isn't there to the real meat of the content that IS.
Its been long enough since Nevrax's financial hiccup that I'm pretty sure they're OK, we're also seeing a heightened intake of new people, at least in Fyros lands, which is heartening.
Originally posted by GRIMACHU The game has a rich background, a living ecosystem which is more complex than many give credit for and everything that occurs is significant, every event, every participation, every friendship, every clash. It all means something, nothing is repeated, if you make an impact in game, you make an impact in game.
I can't beleive you actually said that.
I want you to tell me what impact the following had: Awhile back I got a bunch of people together to attack the goo head tribe. There was a bug that allowed the leader to be killed. We wiped the tribe and the leader out several times. What effect did that have on the game?
I also got people together and killed many Antikami, what impact did that have?
How about any of these: Yuboball Mektoub Races Gladitor Events Goo Stirring Event Enter the gauntlet Any Kitin Invasion Anything to do with the harbingers of doom Kami/Karavan event in the Nexus Any of the most recent events...
The fact is that not one event has had any impact on the game. There was an event where the Kitin attacked cities, before the attack there were holes that appeared that the kitin dug through to get to the surface. Right after the event was over all of them were removed. After all of the invasions, the game is EXACTLY the same as it was before the invasion took place (except one where a gate connecting 2 lands appeared). No matter the amount of mobs players kill there is no change. They don't become less in numbers, they don't move to a different spot, it's exactly the same.
Originally posted by GRIMACHU "The fact is that not one event has had any impact on the game."The only fact is that you're not seeing your impact, or looking in the wrong places.
You completly avoided my very direct question. What impact did any of the things I listed have on the game?
Originally posted by octa Don't know about digging up loot on this tree world but finding more than just jewels on tribes should be implemented.
There are ruins all over the place, why haven't they started putting artifacts and relics in the ground? What about special skills and recipies for crafting? It would seem to me a perfect fit to have someone digging and uncover a parchment with a description on how to make a better sword. Supposingly 3 generations ago there were massive battles between the Kitin and the Kami/Karavan. Why can't there be old weapons and equipment from that buried in the ground?
Oh no, these 2 can go on forever about this issue. I can easily agree with both. Grimachu had a lengthy explanation about his view about this issue in pretty much similar thread.
Grim is pretty much after about having influence in saga and other participants in it. Saga is a common experience for whole server as everyone does not experience saga in own instance. If you take heroic (or whatever) actions in these events you are known server wide for those deeds if they are great enough. There is only one saga that is shared.
Sleepy is more after changing the non-player part of game world by player's actions.
Grim's vision is in SoR but Sleepy's is not. Both visions can be described with those words seen on SoR box (living world, story that matters etc). Sleepy's vision would rock too but I don't know to what extent it is possible in mmorpg.
Originally posted by GRIMACHU The game has a rich background, a living ecosystem which is more complex than many give credit for and everything that occurs is significant, every event, every participation, every friendship, every clash. It all means something, nothing is repeated, if you make an impact in game, you make an impact in game. US players seem to want McDonalds, they want everything the same, they want everythign familiar, they don't want to be challenged, they don't want to work for reward. There's no investment in the game (at least not in significant numbers compared to the whiners). Why the european attitude should be so different somewhat befuddles me. Why should they be more willing to accept, more willing to work at something, more willing to roleplay and more willing to see past the veneer of pointless 'content' that isn't there to the real meat of the content that IS.
You have now gone beyond sophistry to flat-out falsehood. Sadly, I think you actually believe what you wrote, even though it is manifestly not true. Nothing you do in game has any lasting effect on the game world at all. That is the actual truth of the matter.
Absurd generalizations about hundreds of millions of people based on your personal observations about a few also add little to this discussion.
"You completly avoided my very direct question. What impact did any of the things I listed have on the game?"
Your question has been answered a multiple number of ways by many different people from logical sense to emotional appeals.
Your real question isn't the one you have stated, the real question you're asking is "Why can't I see the things you guys see in the game?"
There isn't a way to get through to you, you don't seem capable of seeing it through the eyes of another or you're too set in your own viewpoint to see the arguments of others.
I can see why you would want some of those things in the game but I think they would spoil the appeal and niche of the game to a great degree. Ryzom would lose something by pursuing the same tack as practically every other game on the market rather than forging its own path.
"You have now gone beyond sophistry to flat-out falsehood. Sadly, I think you actually believe what you wrote, even though it is manifestly not true. Nothing you do in game has any lasting effect on the game world at all. That is the actual truth of the matter. Absurd generalizations about hundreds of millions of people based on your personal observations about a few also add little to this discussion. Doctor Z."
When dealing with large numbers of people you must, by necessity, generalise. There are people who are different to that but crowds and groupings are far easier to predict than individuals.
Everything I wrote is true, you and other like you seem to expect a simplistic push button A, immediately see result B approach, rather than a living, breathing sandbox world and community.
Everything you do has a real and lasting effect within the game, unlike those with quests or instanced content where your heroics are meaningless.
Also, generalisations when talking about tastes or marketing are far from irrelevent. Much as we might like to believe we're unique and special snowflakes, we're not. We are groups, classes, target demographics. Advertising for big products is different in different countries, why? Because different things appeal to different demographic and social groups. Like it or not, America is a very different place to Europe and Americans are different to french who are different to germans etc etc. While europe has much more diversity in culture it IS possible to see a marked difference in attitudes and culture between Europe and America. With specific reference to Ryzom especially the European audience seems more willing to work at their leisure activity, be less inclined to whine about every smallest detail not being 100% and so on.
Judging from the recent numbers at the RL events the game is also many magnitudes more popular in France specifically that Germany or Britain (the other two main server areas). I'd be curious to see what the take up from Canadian and French Canadian subscribers is actually, given the very French 'Heavy Metal' Magazine art style to the game.
Anyway, the boiled down points are this...
1. Some people seem incapable of the paradigm shift and gaming style, the 'vision' if you will that gets the most of the game. They blame this on nonexistant 'shortcomings' in the game where it does not conform to pre-existing conceptions of what an MMORPG 'must have'. 2. There IS a marked difference in demographic tastes and consumer habits that seems to have resulted in a large scale lack of interest in the game in the US but a much higher take up in Europe, despite the language barriers, smaller populations and more expensive internet.
1. Some people seem incapable of the paradigm shift and gaming style
Shifting from "entertaining" to "what do I do now?" presumably.
2. There IS a marked difference in demographic tastes and consumer habits that seems to have resulted in a large scale lack of interest in the game in the US but a much higher take up in Europe, despite the language barriers, smaller populations and more expensive internet.
When you're dealing with populations small as SOR's then such differences can be explained by a few helpful reviews or better regional distribution. "Merrikans are dum and don't like to be challenged" doesn't come into it. After all, which continent invented, nurtured and popularised MMOs?
"Shifting from "entertaining" to "what do I do now?" presumably."
Shifting from "WAAAH! GIVE ME WHAT I WANT RIGHT NOW!" to "Hmm... this is interesting, I wonder what I can do with this." Actually. One where the players are participatory and not merely static recipients, which is, after all, rather the point of interactive media. No?
"When you're dealing with populations small as SOR's then such differences can be explained by a few helpful reviews or better regional distribution. "Merrikans are dum and don't like to be challenged" doesn't come into it. After all, which continent invented, nurtured and popularised MMOs?"
Which is rather the point, there's the assumption that a certain way of doing things is what MMORPGs _are_. While I'll agree that something like guildwars isn't an MMORPG because of scale and aggressive instancing there are many other ways to go about MMORPGs as there are to go about RPGs in a broader sense. The US players _tend_ to have a much narrower definition when it comes to certain elements, rather than others.
Saying that one market is different to another does not necessarily imply that it is 'dumb' but it is a fact and part of the success of franchising that certain sectors like familiarity, even at the expense of getting something better.
Comments
The main problem with Ryzom is that it offers nothing that will keep the general MMO player interested. There are no real raids, no quests, no loot, no unique items, no dungeons. All the stuff that people love in MMO's is missing from Ryzom. Now the responce to that is "That's a good thing, the market is filled with games with that stuff. It's about time there was one that didn't have that stuff". I don't disagree with that. However if you are going to make a game without those things, you need to have things to replace them. This is where Ryzom fails horribly.
I think they're voting honestly, but as I already pointed out, only those who like the game enough to continue their subscription are represented on the forum. Hardly a balanced sampling.
People keep saying this, but I don't agree. Marketing is not the problem. Too many players have tried SoR and quit. The reason SoR gets overshadowed by other MMORPG's is because they are better, more polished, games, with much more to do. Just look at the reviews of the game put out by professional reviewers on gamerankings.com, for a more realistic view (and no, the game hasn't changed all that much since those reviews).
Doctor Z.
There really are a lot of people that don't know about SoR, not the faintest hinting of what it is. Note the comments and players elicit Hi threads and comments in the Pub board on this site with players asking what this game is all about, and this is only after SoR went on the Hot List and start getting some attention.
The amount of players leaving the game is pretty much the same as any others. i.e. the retention rates are about the same as that of WoW, EQ2, EVE, CoH, etc.
People will get bored of mmorpgs and leave unless they found something they fell in love with, such as a group of people they play with or certain feature of the game they really like.
It's just that SoR take a bigger hit from each losing sub because they don't have the brand name pull of big playerbase in the first place.
Ryzom right now is like a revolutionary electric car. Looking at the car its stunning. The styling of the body is incredible, inside there are soft leather seats, a powerful sound system, duel climate controls, the speedometer says the engine can go up to 120mph, its advertised that you dont need to ever plug it in or give it gas.
Then you sit in it. You realize that the sound system can only output mono-sound. Only one climate control can work at a time. The engine caps out at 60mph and you are told that it does indeed need some gas.
When you heard about the car, the lead designer said the following:
I decided to make this car because I was tired of the same car we usual drive. Everyday people climb into their cars and play their lousy sound systems, have to worry about fuel levels and cost, are limited by the speed and power of the engine. I want to change all that. Imagine a car that has sound so realistic that you think your in the recording studio. Imagine never having to worry about filling your tank or pumping gas again. Imagine where the minute you step on the gas pedal you are at the speed you want. Thats what this car is all about. We have some exciting times ahead; wont you join us and drive one?
You hear the current drivers say the following:
This car is truly revolutionary. The styling is stunning. The interior is one that you would only expect royalty to have. While its true that the car can only go 60mph and requires gas, they just spent 6 months building a new engine that will make it go 120 and be gas free. And while the ride currently is no different than any other car, the sound system they have in development will change that. When that sound system gets put into the car, boy will the car rock. Not to mention recently there has been a lot more emails from the company telling us great things are coming.
I very much doubt that. None of those games had server merges in their first year.
EVE, COH, Dark age of Camelot, Anarchy Online, Guild Wars etc etc didn't have any brand name to pull in the punters either and they're thriving. Licences are the exception in MMO gaming. SOR did poorly primarily because it was released at the wrong time, half the game was missing and there's not enough to do. The very early and all too long open beta probably didn't help either.
I don't know that I agree with this. There is plenty of this. You just need to make it on your own. There are many caves that you can explore with reqards that are yet to be determined awaiting at the end. There are many bosses that drop UBER loot, you just need to then craft that loot into an UBER item.
This game is community driven and will always be, even when more of te story line items are included, and we influence the world more.
This is not a go to this guy(NPC) and he will set you off on some cool thing. This is talk to others, see what you like best. Hear abotu that cool thing, go try and do it, etc. It is place where you make what you want to do. Many people cannot handle this, feeling lost, etc.
Noin.
I also doubt this very much. Where did you get this information? My guess is that the number of paying subscribers, never all that high to begin with, continues to trend downwards. Trial members don't change the revenue picture for Nevrax unless they become paying subscribers.
I agree 100% with Sparky2004 about the reasons why SoR is having problems. Lack of advertising is not a significant factor.
Doctor Z.
"The main problem with Ryzom is that it offers nothing that will keep the general MMO player interested. There are no real raids, no quests, no loot, no unique items, no dungeons. All the stuff that people love in MMO's is missing from Ryzom. Now the responce to that is "That's a good thing, the market is filled with games with that stuff. It's about time there was one that didn't have that stuff". I don't disagree with that. However if you are going to make a game without those things, you need to have things to replace them. This is where Ryzom fails horribly."
See, to me, the 'lack' of most of those things is a major plus for Ryzom.
Raids? We do have the occasional invasion, and when there's PvP it exists for plot reasons, not for griefing. Outposts should, in theory, add to that.
Quests? No thanks. Instanced repeated content. The Encyclopaedia and recently updated mission system is enough for that.
Loot? The loot actually makes sense (though it'd be nice if homin enemies dropped items occasionally). Phat Lewt kills a lot of games and breaks credibility. The existing loot, Boss Armour, causes no end of grief and the game would be better off without it.
Same for unique items.
Dungeons? Boring as hell (see quests) and they're not appropriate to the world. Not that you likely won't see them with R2, which is a shame IMO.
It does fill the gaps, you just seemed strangely resistant to seeing it, despite your sig file.
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"I very much doubt that. None of those games had server merges in their first year."
Its a very different game, more emotive, more intellectual, more creative.
For some reason that didn't seem to spark with the US playerbase who are also more unreasonable and strident than Europeans, IMO.
You'd think the US would have been the biggest market, given its larger size, number of players etc, but the other servers AFAIK were all doing fine. Certainly we had no problems on the Euro-English server with players pre merge.
To me that says more about american game players than ryzom.
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Again the fact those things are missing from Ryzom would be very big benefit if there were things in the game to take the place of them. One of their biggest selling points was the invasion system they have. This would be a great replacement for normal raids if they occured on a semi normal basis. They don't. How hard would it be to have a yubo overpopulation problem one week, then next have some npc's attack a city, the next have a kitin invasion?
For quests, the encylopedia would be enough of a replacement if it was fully implemented and rites were added on a regular basis. This isn't the case. So far the encylopedia is missing the ability to complete any of the albums. As that's missing so is the special content that players are suppose to get from finishing an album. Having a mission system where you can only put in around 20 in ten months just does not cut it.
Loot. I don't disagree that the idea of having animals only drop animal parts is a bad thing, it fits very well actually. The problem is that the game lacks the ability to find or obtain special items in its place. As you pointed out the npc tribes (except 4) don't drop any weapons, armor, or other things. Why can't they make it so when you kill a Zora Kovan you get the weapon they attacked you with? Or why can't they add in the ability to find items buried in the ground while harvesting?
Dungeons and instances. They don't have to be actual dungeons. Why can't they have a teleport in the Secret Kami Oasis that takes you to an instanced Kami area? Something like that would fit and add so much to the game.
It didn't spark with the US playerbase because it was missing pretty much everything it said it would have. If it had the features it promoted then US players would of kept playing.
Again the fact those things are missing from Ryzom would be very big benefit if there were things in the game to take the place of them. One of their biggest selling points was the invasion system they have. This would be a great replacement for normal raids if they occured on a semi normal basis. They don't. How hard would it be to have a yubo overpopulation problem one week, then next have some npc's attack a city, the next have a kitin invasion?
For quests, the encylopedia would be enough of a replacement if it was fully implemented and rites were added on a regular basis. This isn't the case. So far the encylopedia is missing the ability to complete any of the albums. As that's missing so is the special content that players are suppose to get from finishing an album. Having a mission system where you can only put in around 20 in ten months just does not cut it.
Loot. I don't disagree that the idea of having animals only drop animal parts is a bad thing, it fits very well actually. The problem is that the game lacks the ability to find or obtain special items in its place. As you pointed out the npc tribes (except 4) don't drop any weapons, armor, or other things. Why can't they make it so when you kill a Zora Kovan you get the weapon they attacked you with? Or why can't they add in the ability to find items buried in the ground while harvesting?
Dungeons and instances. They don't have to be actual dungeons. Why can't they have a teleport in the Secret Kami Oasis that takes you to an instanced Kami area? Something like that would fit and add so much to the game.
Very nice post Raynes. It's a good breakdown of the general "no content" complaint which irritates so many :P
I don't understand why instance areas were not implemented at the beginning either. It's obvious they can do it since we have instanced apartments/guild halls; hell the whole portal system makes this a logical addition.
Never was a fan of the encyclopedia but I can see it's benefit for people who like to solo or want a more structured gaming experience. We need to feed that demographic so the rest of us can enjoy the open play system
Don't know about digging up loot on this tree world but finding more than just jewels on tribes should be implemented.
"Ahh but other games have that!" Is not a strong counterargument guys. What's wrong with taking some of the best features of other games and modifying it to fit in your own? Developers do it all the time, and Ryzom is no different. They just seem to be taking their sweet time in implementing them. Lack of resources, more focus on their engine sales? I don't know... I certainly hope not because that would mean they're just playing us all for suckers.
This is sophistry. Basically you are saying that because the game is fairly empty, you (the player) has to provide all the content to make it more interesting. This in turn somehow is more "emotive, more intellectual, more creative". As George Orwell said: "Less is More". Since this is the reverse of the truth, there is nothing wrong with US players, who are simply saying the emperor has no clothes. You need to cut through your own rhetoric and you would see the same thing.
I doubt that Nevrax is doing well financially on any of it's servers, but that is speculation. Do you have any specific information in that regard?
Doctor Z.
"It didn't spark with the US playerbase because it was missing pretty much everything it said it would have. If it had the features it promoted then US players would of kept playing."
I tend to prefer the 'whining child' explanation.
Confronted by something different and imperfect (And not as imperfect as AO, I was around for AO's launch) it was toys out the pram, whereas other national groups don't seem to have had remotely the same issue.
V.strange.
Difference in playstyle, expectation and willingness to try something new.
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"This is sophistry. Basically you are saying that because the game is fairly empty, you (the player) has to provide all the content to make it more interesting. This in turn somehow is more "emotive, more intellectual, more creative". As George Orwell said: "Less is More". Since this is the reverse of the truth, there is nothing wrong with US players, who are simply saying the emperor has no clothes. You need to cut through your own rhetoric and you would see the same thing.
I doubt that Nevrax is doing well financially on any of it's servers, but that is speculation. Do you have any specific information in that regard?
Doctor Z."
No, sophistry is arguing a point you don't believe in to show that an argument can be made, or a deliberate lying argument.
Ryzom is more of a sandbox game, as evidenced by their open source commitment and the Ryzom Ring.
The game has a rich background, a living ecosystem which is more complex than many give credit for and everything that occurs is significant, every event, every participation, every friendship, every clash. It all means something, nothing is repeated, if you make an impact in game, you make an impact in game.
US players seem to want McDonalds, they want everything the same, they want everythign familiar, they don't want to be challenged, they don't want to work for reward. There's no investment in the game (at least not in significant numbers compared to the whiners). Why the european attitude should be so different somewhat befuddles me. Why should they be more willing to accept, more willing to work at something, more willing to roleplay and more willing to see past the veneer of pointless 'content' that isn't there to the real meat of the content that IS.
Its been long enough since Nevrax's financial hiccup that I'm pretty sure they're OK, we're also seeing a heightened intake of new people, at least in Fyros lands, which is heartening.
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I can't beleive you actually said that.
I want you to tell me what impact the following had:
Awhile back I got a bunch of people together to attack the goo head tribe. There was a bug that allowed the leader to be killed. We wiped the tribe and the leader out several times. What effect did that have on the game?
I also got people together and killed many Antikami, what impact did that have?
How about any of these:
Yuboball
Mektoub Races
Gladitor Events
Goo Stirring Event
Enter the gauntlet
Any Kitin Invasion
Anything to do with the harbingers of doom
Kami/Karavan event in the Nexus
Any of the most recent events...
The fact is that not one event has had any impact on the game. There was an event where the Kitin attacked cities, before the attack there were holes that appeared that the kitin dug through to get to the surface. Right after the event was over all of them were removed. After all of the invasions, the game is EXACTLY the same as it was before the invasion took place (except one where a gate connecting 2 lands appeared). No matter the amount of mobs players kill there is no change. They don't become less in numbers, they don't move to a different spot, it's exactly the same.
"The fact is that not one event has had any impact on the game."
The only fact is that you're not seeing your impact, or looking in the wrong places.
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You completly avoided my very direct question. What impact did any of the things I listed have on the game?
There are ruins all over the place, why haven't they started putting artifacts and relics in the ground? What about special skills and recipies for crafting? It would seem to me a perfect fit to have someone digging and uncover a parchment with a description on how to make a better sword. Supposingly 3 generations ago there were massive battles between the Kitin and the Kami/Karavan. Why can't there be old weapons and equipment from that buried in the ground?
Oh no, these 2 can go on forever about this issue. I can easily agree with both. Grimachu had a lengthy explanation about his view about this issue in pretty much similar thread.
Grim is pretty much after about having influence in saga and other participants in it. Saga is a common experience for whole server as everyone does not experience saga in own instance. If you take heroic (or whatever) actions in these events you are known server wide for those deeds if they are great enough. There is only one saga that is shared.
Sleepy is more after changing the non-player part of game world by player's actions.
Grim's vision is in SoR but Sleepy's is not. Both visions can be described with those words seen on SoR box (living world, story that matters etc). Sleepy's vision would rock too but I don't know to what extent it is possible in mmorpg.
You have now gone beyond sophistry to flat-out falsehood. Sadly, I think you actually believe what you wrote, even though it is manifestly not true. Nothing you do in game has any lasting effect on the game world at all. That is the actual truth of the matter.
Absurd generalizations about hundreds of millions of people based on your personal observations about a few also add little to this discussion.
Doctor Z.
"You completly avoided my very direct question. What impact did any of the things I listed have on the game?"
Your question has been answered a multiple number of ways by many different people from logical sense to emotional appeals.
Your real question isn't the one you have stated, the real question you're asking is "Why can't I see the things you guys see in the game?"
There isn't a way to get through to you, you don't seem capable of seeing it through the eyes of another or you're too set in your own viewpoint to see the arguments of others.
I can see why you would want some of those things in the game but I think they would spoil the appeal and niche of the game to a great degree. Ryzom would lose something by pursuing the same tack as practically every other game on the market rather than forging its own path.
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"You have now gone beyond sophistry to flat-out falsehood. Sadly, I think you actually believe what you wrote, even though it is manifestly not true. Nothing you do in game has any lasting effect on the game world at all. That is the actual truth of the matter.
Absurd generalizations about hundreds of millions of people based on your personal observations about a few also add little to this discussion.
Doctor Z."
When dealing with large numbers of people you must, by necessity, generalise. There are people who are different to that but crowds and groupings are far easier to predict than individuals.
Everything I wrote is true, you and other like you seem to expect a simplistic push button A, immediately see result B approach, rather than a living, breathing sandbox world and community.
Everything you do has a real and lasting effect within the game, unlike those with quests or instanced content where your heroics are meaningless.
Also, generalisations when talking about tastes or marketing are far from irrelevent. Much as we might like to believe we're unique and special snowflakes, we're not. We are groups, classes, target demographics. Advertising for big products is different in different countries, why? Because different things appeal to different demographic and social groups. Like it or not, America is a very different place to Europe and Americans are different to french who are different to germans etc etc. While europe has much more diversity in culture it IS possible to see a marked difference in attitudes and culture between Europe and America. With specific reference to Ryzom especially the European audience seems more willing to work at their leisure activity, be less inclined to whine about every smallest detail not being 100% and so on.
Judging from the recent numbers at the RL events the game is also many magnitudes more popular in France specifically that Germany or Britain (the other two main server areas). I'd be curious to see what the take up from Canadian and French Canadian subscribers is actually, given the very French 'Heavy Metal' Magazine art style to the game.
Anyway, the boiled down points are this...
1. Some people seem incapable of the paradigm shift and gaming style, the 'vision' if you will that gets the most of the game. They blame this on nonexistant 'shortcomings' in the game where it does not conform to pre-existing conceptions of what an MMORPG 'must have'.
2. There IS a marked difference in demographic tastes and consumer habits that seems to have resulted in a large scale lack of interest in the game in the US but a much higher take up in Europe, despite the language barriers, smaller populations and more expensive internet.
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Shifting from "entertaining" to "what do I do now?" presumably.
When you're dealing with populations small as SOR's then such differences can be explained by a few helpful reviews or better regional distribution. "Merrikans are dum and don't like to be challenged" doesn't come into it. After all, which continent invented, nurtured and popularised MMOs?
"Shifting from "entertaining" to "what do I do now?" presumably."
Shifting from "WAAAH! GIVE ME WHAT I WANT RIGHT NOW!" to "Hmm... this is interesting, I wonder what I can do with this." Actually. One where the players are participatory and not merely static recipients, which is, after all, rather the point of interactive media. No?
"When you're dealing with populations small as SOR's then such differences can be explained by a few helpful reviews or better regional distribution. "Merrikans are dum and don't like to be challenged" doesn't come into it. After all, which continent invented, nurtured and popularised MMOs?"
Which is rather the point, there's the assumption that a certain way of doing things is what MMORPGs _are_. While I'll agree that something like guildwars isn't an MMORPG because of scale and aggressive instancing there are many other ways to go about MMORPGs as there are to go about RPGs in a broader sense. The US players _tend_ to have a much narrower definition when it comes to certain elements, rather than others.
Saying that one market is different to another does not necessarily imply that it is 'dumb' but it is a fact and part of the success of franchising that certain sectors like familiarity, even at the expense of getting something better.
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