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EVE Online: Cancelled Subs Could Cost CCP $1 Million

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  • TardcoreTardcore Member Posts: 2,325

    No need to panic. Everyone who is still happy with the game just needs to pitch in and buy 14,286 monocles and everything will be fine.

    image

    "Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342


    Originally posted by JeroKane

     I am sorry tho. But I hardly doubt the vast majority in EVE Online wants to pay $60 for virtual monocle on their avatar. /facepalm

    The point is, VAST majority of EVE Online players won't cancel their sub because a guy next has a monocle.


    People cancelling their subs not because they are not getting what they want but because someone else got something they didn't want. That is completely absurd and stupid.

  • tawesstawess Member EpicPosts: 4,227

    Originally posted by JeroKane

     

     I am sorry tho. But I hardly doubt the vast majority in EVE Online wants to pay $60 for virtual monocle on their avatar. /facepalm

    In that you are right... Most don't care about it at all as it does not matter to them. They will just continue to play as they have always done and if an item comes to the store that they like and that is in their pricerange... they will buy it. If no item does that they will just not bother with it and just continue to play as they always have.

    This have been a good conversation

  • rashherorashhero Member UncommonPosts: 510

    Originally posted by Raxeon

     so yout hink the greed is a good thing  it isnt fyi

    Greed is the reason we have Eve or video games/mass entertainment in general. Greed is why we have computers, why you eat more in a single meal than some people eat in a week. Greed is why we have these fancy smart phones and tablets. Greed is why you're driving around in a car/truck. Greed is why you wear name brand clothes. I could keep going but I hope I made my point already.

    And I'm sure people will argue that some of these things were created not because of greed but because of the desire for innovation and achievement. Not going to argue that point. We all have these available to us now because someone knew they could make a buck off of it though.

  • GruugGruug Member RarePosts: 1,794

    Originally posted by Malickie

    Originally posted by Gruug.     

    Getty once said that you can make a lot of money IF you provide what the customer WANTS. CCP is obviously not adhering to that.

    Well that depends on which costumers you're looking at, the 2000 that are screaming out or the thousands of others who are not.

    That slogan very much describes the cash shop situation in MMO's, you can't judge only by those who do not like, there is another spectrum to consider and that's those who do.

    SO what does the customer want? Why has the entire industry been sliding down this slope? Why?

     My point is that it is the CUSTOMER that makes the determination, as you said. My contention is that it is absolutely the right thing for the gamers in EVE to vote their lack of satisfaction with services/product provided by not purchasing said service or product. THAT is how the system should work and works best. If more of those gamers not happy about the CCP changes also decide to not "follow blindly" then perhaps CCP will withdraw their plans. On the other hand, if not enough gamers decide to take a stand, CCP can go along its merry way and more power to them.

    Let's party like it is 1863!

  • Paradigm68Paradigm68 Member UncommonPosts: 890

    Even as someone who did cancel in protest, I'm sure the numbers in that list are probabaly way over stated. You know how people are.

  • WraithoneWraithone Member RarePosts: 3,806

    Originally posted by kishe

    This happens every time some devs do something that the drama llamas think will drop the sky...They'll "quit" and quietly come back month later

     

    In some case. That didn't happen with Star Wars Galaxies, after the NGE...(now its being closed down on Dec 15th). This could well be the bridge too far for many EVE players.  Sure EVE will still be profitable, but it will lose quite a bit of potential profit. Thousands of them have literally flooded the Perpetuum server cluster (think EVE in mechs ^^).  To the point that the Dev's have had to upgrade their hardware and hammer some code bottlenecks, that didn't show up before.

    But unlike CCP, they still have a firm grasp of what their principles are (as CCP once did), and actually listen to their player base.  I suspect CCP has been listening to their Chinese partners, and their tales of the sweet cash shop profits that are made in Asia.  But the eastern markets are still rather different from the western markets. 

    http://www.perpetuum-online.com/

    "If you can't kill it, don't make it mad."
  • RobsolfRobsolf Member RarePosts: 4,607

    Originally posted by rashhero

    Originally posted by Raxeon



     so yout hink the greed is a good thing  it isnt fyi

    Greed is the reason we have Eve or video games/mass entertainment in general. Greed is why we have computers, why you eat more in a single meal than some people eat in a week. Greed is why we have these fancy smart phones and tablets. Greed is why you're driving around in a car/truck. Greed is why you wear name brand clothes. I could keep going but I hope I made my point already.

    And I'm sure people will argue that some of these things were created not because of greed but because of the desire for innovation and achievement. Not going to argue that point. We all have these available to us now because someone knew they could make a buck off of it though.

    Not really.  Believe it or not, some people actually do the things they do because they want to, NOT because they're compelled to make as much money as possible.

    I assure you, people don't play music because they're greedy.  Or write books that will most likely yield them maybe 22 cents per hour invested, if anything.  Or become firemen.  Or cops.

    If greed was truly the main motivating factor for productivity, people would all do the same thing:  whatever it is that makes the most money.  And they also wouldn't have any of those nasty, resource leeching kids...

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342


    Originally posted by Paradigm68
    Even as someone who did cancel in protest, I'm sure the numbers in that list are probabaly way over stated. You know how people are.

    The protest makes no sense, especially against MT.

    Leave forever or just stop overreacting.

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183

    Originally posted by Gruug

    Originally posted by Malickie


    Originally posted by Gruug.     

    Getty once said that you can make a lot of money IF you provide what the customer WANTS. CCP is obviously not adhering to that.

    Well that depends on which costumers you're looking at, the 2000 that are screaming out or the thousands of others who are not.

    That slogan very much describes the cash shop situation in MMO's, you can't judge only by those who do not like, there is another spectrum to consider and that's those who do.

    SO what does the customer want? Why has the entire industry been sliding down this slope? Why?

     My point is that it is the CUSTOMER that makes the determination, as you said. My contention is that it is absolutely the right thing for the gamers in EVE to vote their lack of satisfaction with services/product provided by not purchasing said service or product. THAT is how the system should work and works best. If more of those gamers not happy about the CCP changes also decide to not "follow blindly" then perhaps CCP will withdraw their plans. On the other hand, if not enough gamers decide to take a stand, CCP can go along its merry way and more power to them.

    If I misunderstood what's in yellow my apologies. As my entire post was toward this statement.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • RobsolfRobsolf Member RarePosts: 4,607

    Originally posted by Paradigm68

    Even as someone who did cancel in protest, I'm sure the numbers in that list are probabaly way over stated. You know how people are.

    I suspect you're right.  Like I'd said, most folks aren't going to give up their 50-200 million SP character over fluff.

    It may be a different story, however, when they start selling ships that have advantages.  But even then, I bet most of those 5k people will still stay on board.  Sad, but true.

  • qazymanqazyman Member Posts: 1,785

    Originally posted by Robsolf

    Originally posted by rashhero


    Originally posted by Raxeon



     so yout hink the greed is a good thing  it isnt fyi

    Greed is the reason we have Eve or video games/mass entertainment in general. Greed is why we have computers, why you eat more in a single meal than some people eat in a week. Greed is why we have these fancy smart phones and tablets. Greed is why you're driving around in a car/truck. Greed is why you wear name brand clothes. I could keep going but I hope I made my point already.

    And I'm sure people will argue that some of these things were created not because of greed but because of the desire for innovation and achievement. Not going to argue that point. We all have these available to us now because someone knew they could make a buck off of it though.

    Not really.  Believe it or not, some people actually do the things they do because they want to, NOT because they're compelled to make as much money as possible.

    I assure you, people don't play music because they're greedy.  Or write books that will most likely yield them maybe 22 cents per hour invested, if anything.  Or become firemen.  Or cops.

    If greed was truly the main motivating factor for productivity, people would all do the same thing:  whatever it is that makes the most money.  And they also wouldn't have any of those nasty, resource leeching kids...


    Most could argue that point quite well.


     


    Fire, the wheel, Penicillin, irrigation, agriculture, linguistics, and Art these thing where developed as a result of motivations more complex than greed.


     


    Kim Kardashian, Red Bull, American Idol……….These things are more in the greed sphere of influence. 

  • CeridithCeridith Member UncommonPosts: 2,980

    Originally posted by Robsolf

    Originally posted by rashhero


    Originally posted by Raxeon



     so yout hink the greed is a good thing  it isnt fyi

    Greed is the reason we have Eve or video games/mass entertainment in general. Greed is why we have computers, why you eat more in a single meal than some people eat in a week. Greed is why we have these fancy smart phones and tablets. Greed is why you're driving around in a car/truck. Greed is why you wear name brand clothes. I could keep going but I hope I made my point already.

    And I'm sure people will argue that some of these things were created not because of greed but because of the desire for innovation and achievement. Not going to argue that point. We all have these available to us now because someone knew they could make a buck off of it though.

    Not really.  Believe it or not, some people actually do the things they do because they want to, NOT because they're compelled to make as much money as possible.

    I assure you, people don't play music because they're greedy.  Or write books that will most likely yield them maybe 22 cents per hour invested, if anything.  Or become firemen.  Or cops.

    If greed was truly the main motivating factor for productivity, people would all do the same thing:  whatever it is that makes the most money.  And they also wouldn't have any of those nasty, resource leeching kids...

    Your arguement has one fatal flaw...

    True, the people producing may not be motivated by making as much money as possible. However, they are under the watchful eye and guidance of those who are.

    I'm sure no developer in his right mind wants to rush a product out the door before it's ready, intentially create boring grinds to make the game 'last' longer, or to create problems in gameplay that can have 'solutions' conveniently sold in a cash shop. But at times they have to, because they're told to do so by those who have more authority than they do. If the developers want to continue to have a job, then they just have to do what the number crunchers tell them to do, even if they personally know it's going to make the game suck.

    And that's where the true problem is. The execs and other number crunchers who exist to make the shareholders as much profit as possible. They don't care if the product they sell is a steaming pile of crap, so long as whatever they sell makes the company the most money. Which is the entire problem, a lot of these people are so out of touch with reality that they think that shoving in ridiculously unbalanced and/or overpriced cash shops is the best thing ever. Who can blame them? Who wouldn't want to have a business where they sold effortlessly duplicated products for $25-70+ a pop? The problem is, adding this type of thing completely destroys the game in the long run, in part because it's giving the finger to the customers, and a most of them know it even if they silently swallow it and keep playing.

  • UnshraUnshra Member UncommonPosts: 381

    Originally posted by Wraithone

    Originally posted by kishe

    This happens every time some devs do something that the drama llamas think will drop the sky...They'll "quit" and quietly come back month later

     

    In some case. That didn't happen with Star Wars Galaxies, after the NGE...(now its being closed down on Dec 15th). This could well be the bridge too far for many EVE players.  Sure EVE will still be profitable, but it will lose quite a bit of potential profit. Thousands of them have literally flooded the Perpetuum server cluster (think EVE in mechs ^^).  To the point that the Dev's have had to upgrade their hardware and hammer some code bottlenecks, that didn't show up before.

    But unlike CCP, they still have a firm grasp of what their principles are (as CCP once did), and actually listen to their player base.  I suspect CCP has been listening to their Chinese partners, and their tales of the sweet cash shop profits that are made in Asia.  But the eastern markets are still rather different from the western markets. 

    http://www.perpetuum-online.com/

    Actually many of them will come to realize that Perpetuum will be adding their cash shop soon (just read the most recent dev blogs) and have to face a simple and unhappy fact that it is becoming common place for subscription based MMOs to add RMT on top of the subscription fee.l.

     

    Out of all the rage quitting the instances of people leaving because of MT for Perpetuum who will be getting MT. Although I am glad to see Perpetuum get an influx of users as it's free PR and a nice cash flow for those that sub, I myself support them as I have a soft spot for indie companies but I am also not blind to the fact that they will eventually add their cash shop. So try not to blow too much smoke regarding "listening to their Chinese partners, and their tales of the sweet cash shop profits that are made in Asia" because CCP aren't the only ones listening.

    image
    Because flying a Minmatar ship is like going down a flight of stairs on an office chair while firing an Uzi.

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342


    Originally posted by Ceridith
    They don't care if the product they sell is a steaming pile of crap, so long as whatever they sell makes the company the most money.

    Yeah, you got it right there.

    MMO games have all their subs because the subscribers think how horrible the game is and as an expression of their disgust with the product, they throw money in the face of the gaming companies, month after months in fight to death until those greedy bastards are choked to death and close the game...

  • IllyssiaIllyssia Member UncommonPosts: 1,507

    CCP and Blizzard need to learn that mmo players aren't dumb morons who will pay for virtual nothings beyond their monthly sub. Both of these are old games and there is only so far you can go with an old game before needing to re-write from the ground up. CCP probably have EvE 2 in secret early internal prodcution for release in 3-5 years time. They need to get the golden goose to extract as much cash as they can between now and then.

  • CeridithCeridith Member UncommonPosts: 2,980

    Originally posted by Gdemami

     




    Originally posted by Ceridith

    They don't care if the product they sell is a steaming pile of crap, so long as whatever they sell makes the company the most money.




     

    Yeah, you got it right there.

    MMO games have all their subs because the subscribers think how horrible the game is and as an expression of their disgust with the product, they throw money in the face of the gaming companies, month after months until those greedy bastards give up and close the game...

    I know you think you're being sarcastic, but it happens all the time in many "free to play" MMOs.

    Intentionally designed flaws, such as excessive travel between points or ridiculous grinds, where the solutions such as mounts or experience boosts are sold in the cash shop. There are people who hate those aspects of the game enough to pull out their credit card and throw money at the developer to 'fix' the problem.

    Sure, they're free to play games though, they need to make money somehow, so really you quite literally get what you pay for.

    It truly becomes a joke in a subscription based game though. They're already getting your money, but apparently it's not enough, you have to pay more if you want the 'complete' experience. Now players are paying for the privledge of being able to pay more money for 'premium' content that would have otherwise been available if the company still went by it's original business practices.

    Which is the entire point. Eve started out with zero MT. People have invested hundreds of dollars in subscriptions and countless hours of their time progressing and advancing within the game. Now suddenly they have a new MT system dumped on them, and their choices are to suck it up and cotinue to play a game that no longer gives them the full game for the money they spend, or to walk away and give up their time and money invested into the game.

  • RomseRomse Member Posts: 198

    Originally posted by Malickie



    I'm interested in seeing how many that say they will quit, actually quit. We've seen this in MMO's for years, so many claim to quit yet within a week are playing again. They try new games realize they are no longer at the top and go back to where they were.


     

    True but one of the main appeals of EVE is the economy... you start mixing in microtransactions and who knows how this will affect it...

    ...the other aspect is that it's been going on for a while and might have outlived its place in the playerbases hearts... some people might just be looking for an excuse to transform their fading interest into a grand exit (might be leaving anyways now that the idea has been sparked)

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342


    Originally posted by Romse
    True but one of the main appeals of EVE is the economy... you start mixing in microtransactions and who knows how this will affect it......

    That goes for pretty much any game change. That is an issue with economy and complex systems in general.

    Does that means we should stop evolving? And say no for any change, just because of 'principle'?


    No one is raising a hand for hasty moves, CCP included, but MT in EVE just started and nothing but slow additions to the cash shop and research shows the way.

  • mCalvertmCalvert Member CommonPosts: 1,283

    People rage quit EVE all the time. It its not microtransactions, itll be losing some new ship they just bought.

  • LidaneLidane Member CommonPosts: 2,300

    Originally posted by Gdemami

     




    Originally posted by Gruug

    Getty once said that you can make a lot of money IF you provide what the customer WANTS. CCP is obviously not adhering to that.




     

    Well, actually that is what CCP is doing exactly.



    It is only those 2.3k/5.5k people that do not want it. That is 1.4% of whole subscriber base.

    The rest, 98.6% of subscribers are fine with MT.

    Which would line up with EA's numbers in the presentation in another thread that only around 2% of gamers are emotionally invested in a game enough to post on their forums and to make a lot of noise. 

    It will be interesting to see if the people complaining the loudest follow through with their plans to rageqiut or if they'll just do as they tend to do -- open their wallets and spend more than the average gamer on a system they claim to despise.

  • CeridithCeridith Member UncommonPosts: 2,980

    Originally posted by Gdemami

     




    Originally posted by Romse

    True but one of the main appeals of EVE is the economy... you start mixing in microtransactions and who knows how this will affect it......



     

    That goes for pretty much any game change. That is an issue with economy and complex systems in general.

    Does that means we should stop evolving? And say no for any change, just because of 'principle'?



    No one is raising a hand for hasty moves, CCP included, but MT in EVE just started and nothing but slow additions to the cash shop and research shows the way.

    There's a difference between incrimental changes to expand, improve, or otherwise balance a game, and outright changing core game mechanics.

    Adding MT, particularly in selling things that would otherwise be produced by players, would be a fundamental gameplay change for Eve considering the game has otherwise been entirely player based economic production.

    CCP adding invasive MT to Eve could dethrone SWG as the biggest screw up in MMO history.

  • evictonevicton Member Posts: 398

    Originally posted by Unshra

    Originally posted by Wraithone


    Originally posted by kishe

    This happens every time some devs do something that the drama llamas think will drop the sky...They'll "quit" and quietly come back month later

     

    In some case. That didn't happen with Star Wars Galaxies, after the NGE...(now its being closed down on Dec 15th). This could well be the bridge too far for many EVE players.  Sure EVE will still be profitable, but it will lose quite a bit of potential profit. Thousands of them have literally flooded the Perpetuum server cluster (think EVE in mechs ^^).  To the point that the Dev's have had to upgrade their hardware and hammer some code bottlenecks, that didn't show up before.

    But unlike CCP, they still have a firm grasp of what their principles are (as CCP once did), and actually listen to their player base.  I suspect CCP has been listening to their Chinese partners, and their tales of the sweet cash shop profits that are made in Asia.  But the eastern markets are still rather different from the western markets. 

    http://www.perpetuum-online.com/

    Actually many of them will come to realize that Perpetuum will be adding their cash shop soon (just read the most recent dev blogs) and have to face a simple and unhappy fact that it is becoming common place for subscription based MMOs to add RMT on top of the subscription fee.l.

     

    Out of all the rage quitting the instances of people leaving because of MT for Perpetuum who will be getting MT. Although I am glad to see Perpetuum get an influx of users as it's free PR and a nice cash flow for those that sub, I myself support them as I have a soft spot for indie companies but I am also not blind to the fact that they will eventually add their cash shop. So try not to blow too much smoke regarding "listening to their Chinese partners, and their tales of the sweet cash shop profits that are made in Asia" because CCP aren't the only ones listening.

     

    True but there devs are listening to feed back and are making the one statement ccp has not at this time made..

    "I'll start with the straight answer: no, we do not plan or intend to introduce any MT items that affect gameplay or disturb our strict level playing field policy in any way.



    We have a manifesto on our site that we have offered to the press at the time we launched, but I guess there is no harm making it public here as well:



    http://www.perpetuum-online.com/Media:Manifesto



    It's no coincidence that the level playing field is mentioned in the very beginning. We take that very seriously, because we think that it is one of the main driving forces behind a healthy sandbox world with a dynamic healthy economy.



    Obviously many of you have been burnt by false promises which results in general distrust towards game companies. I'm not here to ask your trust, how could I, this is just a devblog, not a contract. I'm merely asking you to judge us by our past, present and future actions. We are very much aware what happens when you play with the trust of your customers."

    And from there own forums

     

    "It's not like we want to push it out next week. We announced it now so it can boil down enough and we can see the feedback of our players, before we take the step.

    Admittedly, in light of those recent events out there, our timing could have been better. However I have promised to write about paintjobs and omitting the MT part would have just created the same future trust issues that those guys are facing now."

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342


    Originally posted by Ceridith

    There's a difference between incrimental changes to expand, improve, or otherwise balance a game, and outright changing core game mechanics.

    And that is what they are doing, they have added vanity items only so far. Step by step.

  • Paradigm68Paradigm68 Member UncommonPosts: 890

    Originally posted by Gdemami

     




    Originally posted by Paradigm68

    Even as someone who did cancel in protest, I'm sure the numbers in that list are probabaly way over stated. You know how people are.




    The protest makes no sense, especially against MT.

    Leave forever or just stop overreacting.

    Why does it make no sense?  If the game doesn't change I have left forever.  If enough people quit to the point that it makes CCP change then I'll come back.  CCP has made it clear the only thing they'll listen to is what players do, not what they say.

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