I think many RPGs are made like porn movies. The most important part to the developers are the action scenes... and the scripting and acting get just enough attention to make it seem like there is a story.
Going with this I personally feel Bioware is going in the opposite direction. They are putting all their focus on the script and characters and forgets all the action, and that leaves me wondering, why am I watching this again? Im probably not the only one who skipped the "story" scenes in Pirates, and just watched the "action" scenes. Because thats the purpose of the film.
A game is meant to be played, not meant to be watched or listened to, atleast not primarily.. Thats my opinion atleast
While I've enjoyed many of their games, I've never found their storytelling to be anything better than above average. Funcom does better stories. Squaresoft does better stories. Sierra does better stories. Microid does better stories. I would even say that Turbine does better stories (some of the stuff in LotRO is really well done). Bioware is above average at best.
WRONG! Funcom's story telling is why I left AOC. I felt totally disconnected from the boring story after level 20, managed to get near 50, and couldn't take it anymore.
I've never even played AoC. I'm talking about their single-player endeavors, in the form of The Longest Journey and Dreamfall.
Very good stories indeed.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
When I see posts like "Story is what Bioware does better...etc." , I have a hard time taking them seriously. I have to admit, the only Bioware stories I've completed are Mass Effect 1 & 2...I tried playing through KOTOR, but it glitched towards the end on my 360--I have no intentions of breakin out my old XBOX at the moment and then playing through it all again. Not ONCE was I "amazed" at any of the interactions with the characters or stories being told in those games--In fact, for the most part, I found myself trying to do whatever I wanted to do...usually stuff that was impossible, but you get bored with the narrative and then start making a game out of not playing the darn game...that's why I loved the first Assassin's Creed--playing it like it was meant to be played was rather boring, but you could have fun just being a mass murderer and then piling up the streets with dead guards and civilians, or simply just running along rooftops and whatnot--screw the story lol.
I know a guy at work that's going back to school(College), and he was telling me that he never considered himself very good at writing, but many people seemed rather impressed with his papers. He figured he was average at best, but during some sort of student peer evaluation--where he and the other students were critiquing each others' work...well, this is the impression he got from those students that were pretty much fresh out of high school:
"WHAT I DID ON MY SUMMER VACATION:"
"I HAD FUN ON MY SUMMER VACATION. I WENT TO THE BEACH WITH MY FRIENDS..."... you get the idea.
For some reason, when he told me that, it made me think about Bioware's stories...I kid you not. Sure you can make choices that might have consequences, but that doesn't make it a "good" story. The stories probably aren't "bad", they just seem rather uninspired to me, and from what i've seen from this new story, it's much of the same. As far as video games go, Bioware probably doesn't have the worst stories, but I can think of a couple that I think have better stories--like GOW3(the only one I've played), and The Force Unleashed(the first one). I didn't much care for the subject matter, or even the characters in "God of War", but story-wise I thought it was better than the last "Clash of the Titans" movie lol. the story in TFU wasn't great by any means, but it was better than KOTOR in my opinion...I'm not even sure who made those games, but I know LucasArts had to be involved with TFU.
I think this is why so many people have their reservations about implementing this type of story mechanic in an MMORPG, especially if SWG was the only MMORPG you've ever played. That's the case for me, so I'll never have that "It's Bioware, and the one thing that they do best is story" feeling.
Stephen kings sells a bajillion books a year. I think they're crap.
Solution: I don't buy them.
Outcome: I'm happy, and he doesn't give a #@$# since he can still wipe his ass with hundred dollar bills.
No one is going to like everything, even things that are very popular. Instead of worrying why you don't have the ame opinion as everyone else, just avoid things you find you don't like. Make your life much better that way.
Bioware are pretty overrated imo. Rockstar, Obsidian, and Remedy are all better in terms of storytelling.
Obsidian is known for being a poor quality studio, with lackluster writers.
Rockstar is very decent, and they definitely produce some worthwhile and entertaining stories. However, rehashing the same basic design over and over and over is doing them more harm than good. They need to show some innovation if they plan to remain competitive.
Remedy is mediocre at best, in all areas.
I personally think Bioware absolutely crushes the three studios above in terms of storytelling and overall entertainment value. The scope of TOR is essentially the size of every game they have ever produced combined. That alone speaks volumes about the effort they are putting into this title. The story elements are top notch, and imho, are higher quality than any single player or multiplayer roleplaying game released in the last decade.
Just my 2 credits.
A lot of people hate on Obsidian but I really don't understand why. IMO NWN2:Mask of the Betrayer was one of the best CRPG stories I ever played. I thought New Vegas was solid as well. Obsidian is also run by the same person that ran Black Isle before Interplay went under, and Black Isle had some of the best CRPGs ever.
Obsidian's problem isn't story, that's the reason they're still in business. People hate on Obsidian because every single release is riddled with poor design choices and soul-crushing bugs that should never, eer have made it into a product they were charging people money for.
The only BW story that didn't get me from the start was in Jade Empire. Rest was excelent except NWN, didn't play that.
Also, saying that Mass Effect has "bad" story in whatever context is just blasphemy for me, dont even wanna hear it. Its one of the best games overall I played and its story was beautiful. It wasn't really inovative, but who says it has to be?
I have no opinion either way about TOR as I haven't really followed Bioware's Star Wars games at all (I'm one of the maybe 20 gamers who hasn't). Love the original movies. Lukewarm (no that's not a pun) about the prequels. Love the setting and the lore. Could never get into the games, even as far back as the old wireframe coin-ops of the 80s.
I just wanted to duck in here and, honestly, commend every single person seriously discussing this, which ever side you're on. To see people actually discussing storyline as an important - or at least relevant - part of a MMORPG is very refreshing and heartening to see.
I was beginning to think the MMO community (very generally speaking) was going on a vehemently "action only" path where the only thing that matters is how powerful your character is and how quickly you could get it there, or if you can beat the other guy at... whatever.
I'm not convinced that pre-determined, linear storylines are "appropriate" for MMORPGs... I'm still of the mind that linear, guided stories are best suited for single player games, while MMORPGs are better served with "settings" which a player could choose to engage in, or not engage in at all. Still, it's cool to see there are still some people who care about good storytelling.
Anyway... Great read!
-ducking out now-
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
When you read a book, are you actively participating in the story? No. Reading is a passive experience. It may play out in your mind's eye. You may be totally engrossed in the characters and the events of the story, but it is not your story, it's the authors story, and you are along for the ride. Gaming on the other hand is a more active medium and it really doesn't make sense to put thousands of people together in an space opera adventure and have them read stories. The whole point is to LIVE the experience. Or atleast I thought it was.
When you read a book, are you actively participating in the story? No. Reading is a passive experience. It may play out in your mind's eye. You may be totally engrossed in the characters and the events of the story, but it is not your story, it's the authors story, and you are along for the ride. Gaming on the other hand is a more active medium and it really doesn't make sense to put thousands of people together in an space opera adventure and have them read stories. The whole point is to LIVE the experience. Or atleast I thought it was.
Well, since you're not reading a book, I don't see what that has to do with it.
The model they're using is from single player games, nothing to do with reading books or watching movies passively.
When you read a book, are you actively participating in the story? No. Reading is a passive experience. It may play out in your mind's eye. You may be totally engrossed in the characters and the events of the story, but it is not your story, it's the authors story, and you are along for the ride. Gaming on the other hand is a more active medium and it really doesn't make sense to put thousands of people together in an space opera adventure and have them read stories. The whole point is to LIVE the experience. Or atleast I thought it was.
Well, since you're not reading a book, I don't see what that has to do with it.
The model they're using is from single player games, nothing to do with reading books or watching movies passively.
That's sort of the point... they're using a model from single player RPG gaming. Bioware's games feature story tailored for a center of the universe experience. Great for single player... but the question is will the same work on an MMO scale? That's the hundred million dollar question that Bioware is gambling with.
I have no doubt SWTOR will kill in box sales. However, sustained long-term subscription is where the real question is. This pretty much hinges on whether or not Bioware can sustainably keep pumping out interesting story content to keep people entertained.
When you read a book, are you actively participating in the story? No. Reading is a passive experience. It may play out in your mind's eye. You may be totally engrossed in the characters and the events of the story, but it is not your story, it's the authors story, and you are along for the ride. Gaming on the other hand is a more active medium and it really doesn't make sense to put thousands of people together in an space opera adventure and have them read stories. The whole point is to LIVE the experience. Or atleast I thought it was.
I had to read a story for ZORK, spaceship warlock, ect. Still hat to punch hocktuey or manually tell my dude to lift a rug. Pretty much all gaming experience deals with a combination of directed narrative mixed with gameplay. Gameplay, if it exists in said game.
Either way, sandbox /=/ themepark. There are plenty of other games around offering what people with differing tastes want.
When you read a book, are you actively participating in the story? No. Reading is a passive experience. It may play out in your mind's eye. You may be totally engrossed in the characters and the events of the story, but it is not your story, it's the authors story, and you are along for the ride. Gaming on the other hand is a more active medium and it really doesn't make sense to put thousands of people together in an space opera adventure and have them read stories. The whole point is to LIVE the experience. Or atleast I thought it was.
Well, since you're not reading a book, I don't see what that has to do with it.
The model they're using is from single player games, nothing to do with reading books or watching movies passively.
That's sort of the point... they're using a model from single player RPG gaming. Bioware's games feature story tailored for a center of the universe experience. Great for single player... but the question is will the same work on an MMO scale? That's the hundred million dollar question that Bioware is gambling with.
I have no doubt SWTOR will kill in box sales. However, sustained long-term subscription is where the real question is. This pretty much hinges on whether or not Bioware can sustainably keep pumping out interesting story content to keep people entertained.
But it isn't JUST a SPG RPG gaming model. Sure, all eight class story arcs are aimed at the SPG part of themepark MMOs. The leveling that many players just click through and ignore while they speed to level cap. But there are other stories as well.
World faction stories that require grouping are a completely different story. They occur on just about every planet but starter planets. Flashpoints and Operations will have their own stories as well for group play. As well as something on the level 50 planet James talked a bit about. And possibly a part of the "never before seen in a MMO" content yet to be announced.
I understand wanting a virtual world to live in, but you can not live in a game world with todays tech. You have to use RP and player politics to imagine living in a game. Personally I would rather live the IP story based on the lore with some choice to influence my characters progression.
How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them? R.A.Salvatore
When you read a book, are you actively participating in the story? No. Reading is a passive experience. It may play out in your mind's eye. You may be totally engrossed in the characters and the events of the story, but it is not your story, it's the authors story, and you are along for the ride. Gaming on the other hand is a more active medium and it really doesn't make sense to put thousands of people together in an space opera adventure and have them read stories. The whole point is to LIVE the experience. Or atleast I thought it was.
Well, since you're not reading a book, I don't see what that has to do with it.
The model they're using is from single player games, nothing to do with reading books or watching movies passively.
That's sort of the point... they're using a model from single player RPG gaming. Bioware's games feature story tailored for a center of the universe experience. Great for single player... but the question is will the same work on an MMO scale? That's the hundred million dollar question that Bioware is gambling with.
I have no doubt SWTOR will kill in box sales. However, sustained long-term subscription is where the real question is. This pretty much hinges on whether or not Bioware can sustainably keep pumping out interesting story content to keep people entertained.
I've been wondering this as well. Beyond leveling up a buch of characters to max level and raiding a bunch, what is left? Tbh, I think Swtor will face the same conundrum that every content oriented mmo faces. The challenge of providing content faster than players go through it without making previous progress seem wasted, and without making the socialization pillar unnecessary.
If you can release content fast, will it be good? Will it be better than what was there before? Will it invalidate previous and very recent progress making the pursuit seem fruitless? Lastly. Willy it come too slow for the hardcore, or too fast for the regular/casual?
It's very tough to weigh all of these in as more often or not they directly conflic with eachother.
When you read a book, are you actively participating in the story? No. Reading is a passive experience. It may play out in your mind's eye. You may be totally engrossed in the characters and the events of the story, but it is not your story, it's the authors story, and you are along for the ride. Gaming on the other hand is a more active medium and it really doesn't make sense to put thousands of people together in an space opera adventure and have them read stories. The whole point is to LIVE the experience. Or atleast I thought it was.
Well, since you're not reading a book, I don't see what that has to do with it.
The model they're using is from single player games, nothing to do with reading books or watching movies passively.
That's sort of the point... they're using a model from single player RPG gaming. Bioware's games feature story tailored for a center of the universe experience. Great for single player... but the question is will the same work on an MMO scale? That's the hundred million dollar question that Bioware is gambling with.
I have no doubt SWTOR will kill in box sales. However, sustained long-term subscription is where the real question is. This pretty much hinges on whether or not Bioware can sustainably keep pumping out interesting story content to keep people entertained.
The only part of the game that feels like the single play experience is the emphasis on the player or players, the npcs notice the player(s) and (s)he can make deicions that will affect how the game appears to that player(s).
The mechanics however can be used for multiple people, remember that outside of the personal story every player in the group can affect how the story plays out. Each class/gender can tweak the experience a little bit. Bringing certain people can even alter which parts of the dungeon you have access to.
at the end i'm not sure that the dialog wheel and cinematics are predifined to just single players games or are limited it to single player games only or having them makes the game any less multiplayer.
You are however right SW;ToR has to hold long term, but thats not really new to MMOs or singular to SW;TOR this question has to be asked of every single MMo, does it have features that can (when the main attraction wears off) hold the player base, if it does then it can be successful, if it doesn't, then it won't. Lots of new stuff coming down the pipe and all have their issues that could kill long term, but they also have thier pluses that can help keep them long term.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
When you read a book, are you actively participating in the story? No. Reading is a passive experience. It may play out in your mind's eye. You may be totally engrossed in the characters and the events of the story, but it is not your story, it's the authors story, and you are along for the ride. Gaming on the other hand is a more active medium and it really doesn't make sense to put thousands of people together in an space opera adventure and have them read stories. The whole point is to LIVE the experience. Or atleast I thought it was.
Well, since you're not reading a book, I don't see what that has to do with it.
The model they're using is from single player games, nothing to do with reading books or watching movies passively.
That's sort of the point... they're using a model from single player RPG gaming. Bioware's games feature story tailored for a center of the universe experience. Great for single player... but the question is will the same work on an MMO scale? That's the hundred million dollar question that Bioware is gambling with.
I have no doubt SWTOR will kill in box sales. However, sustained long-term subscription is where the real question is. This pretty much hinges on whether or not Bioware can sustainably keep pumping out interesting story content to keep people entertained.
The only part of the game that feels like the single play experience is the emphasis on the player or players, the npcs notice the player(s) and (s)he can make deicions that will affect how the game appears to that player(s).
The mechanics however can be used for multiple people, remember that outside of the personal story every player in the group can affect how the story plays out. Each class/gender can tweak the experience a little bit. Bringing certain people can even alter which parts of the dungeon you have access to.
at the end i'm not sure that the dialog wheel and cinematics are predifined to just single players games or are limited it to single player games only or having them makes the game any less multiplayer.
You are however right SW;ToR has to hold long term, but thats not really new to MMOs or singular to SW;TOR this question has to be asked of every single MMo, does it have features that can (when the main attraction wears off) hold the player base, if it does then it can be successful, if it doesn't, then it won't. Lots of new stuff coming down the pipe and all have their issues that could kill long term, but they also have thier pluses that can help keep them long term.
ok then name a mmo that has all voice and no reading in it. i played them all none of em have it name a mmo that has crafting system were your npcs craft and you dont none. dont have it >.> so yeah bioware does have some stuff other mmos dont have. so yeah its about story some people like storys some dont. this game dont have to appeal to you if you dont like it dont buy it simple.
When you read a book, are you actively participating in the story? No. Reading is a passive experience. It may play out in your mind's eye. You may be totally engrossed in the characters and the events of the story, but it is not your story, it's the authors story, and you are along for the ride. Gaming on the other hand is a more active medium and it really doesn't make sense to put thousands of people together in an space opera adventure and have them read stories. The whole point is to LIVE the experience. Or atleast I thought it was.
Well, since you're not reading a book, I don't see what that has to do with it.
The model they're using is from single player games, nothing to do with reading books or watching movies passively.
That's sort of the point... they're using a model from single player RPG gaming. Bioware's games feature story tailored for a center of the universe experience. Great for single player... but the question is will the same work on an MMO scale? That's the hundred million dollar question that Bioware is gambling with.
I have no doubt SWTOR will kill in box sales. However, sustained long-term subscription is where the real question is. This pretty much hinges on whether or not Bioware can sustainably keep pumping out interesting story content to keep people entertained.
Now is this a problem only TOR suffers from? Most themepark games use elements of single player RPG's, the difference here is one of presentation, not really much else. The MMO part ia something else entirely, and we can never tell how it's going to be until we reach the cap stage of the game, longevity is something we'll never know until we've given up due to boredom or are still playing 2-3 years later.
The million dollar question of this thread is will the story presentation be better served than typcial MMO story presentation. Which I side on Biowares corner, as I've felt story presentation is something that has really been lacking in Themepark MMO's. They more or less are all story oriented, the problem is it's always been presented like a bad novel, rather than an engrossing narrative.
This is the big difference between Themepark design and Sandbox design, a sandbox isn't really about narrative outside of that which you create for yourself. This isn't the case with Themeparks, from WOW to Lotro to AOC etc.. They're all about an overall story. The problem is in most cases the story isn't presented in a way that draws interest to it.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I've always thought Bioware's greatest strength was making memorable characters, they've had some really interesting companion characters over the years, and I can't think of another in the industry that does that as well as them.
As far as storytelling goes, they are a solid story telling company, but not amazing.
ok then name a mmo that has all voice and no reading in it. i played them all none of em have it name a mmo that has crafting system were your npcs craft and you dont none.
Guildwars uses NPCs to craft stuff for you, you provide the parts and they charge you. Sounds exactly the same to me. Yeah, it is a CORPG.
All voice acting on the other hand have never been done on this scale, AoC probably have the most voice acting in a game besides TOR.
I've always thought Bioware's greatest strength was making memorable characters, they've had some really interesting companion characters over the years. They are a solid story telling company, and better than the vast majority; but not amazing.
Yeah, "Go for the eyes, Boo"...:)
True, NPCs have been the part where no one can compete with them. A few other games have had good NPCs as well (like Planescape:Torment) but Bioware have a very high percentage memorable NPC. The bad news is that they have lost a bit of the magic lately, Isabella and the dwarf were the only 2 worth noticing in DA 2.
That's sort of the point... they're using a model from single player RPG gaming. Bioware's games feature story tailored for a center of the universe experience. Great for single player... but the question is will the same work on an MMO scale? That's the hundred million dollar question that Bioware is gambling with.
It's not even mildly close to being a gamble. I'd be willing to bet my house that it is far more effective and fun than the experience the massive majority of players are getting out of the current MMOs leveling progression. The storyline aspect of this game is solid, it will be well received and it will set a new standard.
If anything is going to cost SWTOR subs, it will be a lack of content at end-game and/or a poor PvP experience. That is the only question mark on this game.
These chracters are Bioware's stamp, and what's kept me playing their games over the years (well, BG and NwN both had a nice mix of good story and characters.... *goes away and pokes Boo in the tummy*)
It's not even mildly close to being a gamble. I'd be willing to bet my house that it is far more effective and fun than the experience the massive majority of players are getting out of the current MMOs leveling progression. The storyline aspect of this game is solid, it will be well received and it will set a new standard.
If anything is going to cost SWTOR subs, it will be a lack of content at end-game and/or a poor PvP experience. That is the only question mark on this game.
Anything untried is always a gamble, even if Bioware probably have the odds on their side on this.
I am actually more worried about the gear focus on the game, I don't think it fit the SW IP at all, and neither does the holy triad. While former Wow player might like it they risk losing the Star wars fans on these things. The traditional MMO players who love that stuff might on the other hand be turned off by the companion system.
I doubt that the PvP experience will influence the subscriber numbers that much, it is clear that this games main focus is PvE and I think 90% of the interested people are pure PvE or at best casual PvP:ers who play a lot of PvE as well.
As for endgame content it seems like it will have plenty but with the usual Wow raiding at the end. That has worked before at least.
When you read a book, are you actively participating in the story? No. Reading is a passive experience. It may play out in your mind's eye. You may be totally engrossed in the characters and the events of the story, but it is not your story, it's the authors story, and you are along for the ride. Gaming on the other hand is a more active medium and it really doesn't make sense to put thousands of people together in an space opera adventure and have them read stories. The whole point is to LIVE the experience. Or atleast I thought it was.
Well, since you're not reading a book, I don't see what that has to do with it.
The model they're using is from single player games, nothing to do with reading books or watching movies passively.
That's sort of the point... they're using a model from single player RPG gaming. Bioware's games feature story tailored for a center of the universe experience. Great for single player... but the question is will the same work on an MMO scale? That's the hundred million dollar question that Bioware is gambling with.
I have no doubt SWTOR will kill in box sales. However, sustained long-term subscription is where the real question is. This pretty much hinges on whether or not Bioware can sustainably keep pumping out interesting story content to keep people entertained.
Now is this a problem only TOR suffers from? Most themepark games use elements of single player RPG's, the difference here is one of presentation, not really much else. The MMO part ia something else entirely, and we can never tell how it's going to be until we reach the cap stage of the game, longevity is something we'll never know until we've given up due to boredom or are still playing 2-3 years later.
The million dollar question of this thread is will the story presentation be better served than typcial MMO story presentation. Which I side on Biowares corner, as I've felt story presentation is something that has really been lacking in Themepark MMO's. They more or less are all story oriented, the problem is it's always been presented like a bad novel, rather than an engrossing narrative.
This is the big difference between Themepark design and Sandbox design, a sandbox isn't really about narrative outside of that which you create for yourself. This isn't the case with Themeparks, from WOW to Lotro to AOC etc.. They're all about an overall story. The problem is in most cases the story isn't presented in a way that draws interest to it.
It's not by any means the only problem TOR might suffer from. It looks as though it will suffer from the exact same issues that pretty much any other themepark MMO would suffer from. From what has been released by Bioware pertaining to the mechanics of the game, I honestly only see two main points that would set the game apart from the competition, and that is story and voice overs. Though technically, in some ways it could consider that they technically boil down to being one and the same actually thing since they're both in part of presenting a quality storytelling experience.
Essentially, from what I can see TOR looks to like it will be a one trick pony when compared to it's peers. That one trick of course, being presenting a deep storyline experience (Voice overs included). As I mentioned earlier in prior posts, is what my concern of the longterm viability of the game. If it does truly turn out that Bioware cannot consistently pump out content of a high enough volume and quality to keep the greater population busy and entertained, then the game could lose it's identity and very well end up being labled as yet another bland cookie cutter themepark MMO in the long run.
I honestly don't know how things will turn out, but it does look like it could be a very daunting task ahead for Bioware to keep SWTOR players entertained in the long haul.
It's not even mildly close to being a gamble. I'd be willing to bet my house that it is far more effective and fun than the experience the massive majority of players are getting out of the current MMOs leveling progression. The storyline aspect of this game is solid, it will be well received and it will set a new standard.
If anything is going to cost SWTOR subs, it will be a lack of content at end-game and/or a poor PvP experience. That is the only question mark on this game.
Anything untried is always a gamble, even if Bioware probably have the odds on their side on this.
I am actually more worried about the gear focus on the game, I don't think it fit the SW IP at all, and neither does the holy triad. While former Wow player might like it they risk losing the Star wars fans on these things. The traditional MMO players who love that stuff might on the other hand be turned off by the companion system.
I doubt that the PvP experience will influence the subscriber numbers that much, it is clear that this games main focus is PvE and I think 90% of the interested people are pure PvE or at best casual PvP:ers who play a lot of PvE as well.
As for endgame content it seems like it will have plenty but with the usual Wow raiding at the end. That has worked before at least.
It's not untried, its been done in RPGs over and over again for a decade now. There is almost zero difference in the leveling aspect of an MMORPG and an solo RPG, outside of one of them using text instead of voice and cinematics to tell the story. It's like saying a Porche is a less appealing car than a Festiva, its ridiculous.
The PvP experience always dictates numbers to a larger degree than PvE players like to pretend., because casual/hardcare PvEers are largly atleast casual PvPers. And because a good PvP system fills in some gaps when it comes to end-game content. It's one of the reasons WoW was so successful amongst me and my friends for many years. When we didn't have PvE content to explore (for whatever reason) we could always do a few arenas, or jump into a BG and have fun... because despite what any haters say, WoWs combat system is a fun system to PvP with. That is something SWTOR will be well served by, especially when its still in its early days and not heavy on end-game PvE content yet.
No game launches with enough raid content to keep people busy for long at end-game. SWTOR will be no different in that respect, they will also struggle to produce raid content at the same level as Blizzard, because of all the cinematic, writing, and voiceover work they need to do in addition to the actual gameplay. They will need other aspects to fill in the gaps, whether it be dailies, PvP, crafting, exploring, collecting, etc
In regards to the OP; I'm not amazed by Bioware's stories either. However, Bioware does tend to do this far better than most when it comes to video games. They do know how to tell a good story within a video game, however when compared to other forms of entertainment the stories are nothing spectacular.
If there is one thing SWTOR should have done well, it'll be the storyline. Whether or not the majority of players will care is another matter entirely, though.
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Going with this I personally feel Bioware is going in the opposite direction. They are putting all their focus on the script and characters and forgets all the action, and that leaves me wondering, why am I watching this again? Im probably not the only one who skipped the "story" scenes in Pirates, and just watched the "action" scenes. Because thats the purpose of the film.
A game is meant to be played, not meant to be watched or listened to, atleast not primarily.. Thats my opinion atleast
Very good stories indeed.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Stephen kings sells a bajillion books a year. I think they're crap.
Solution: I don't buy them.
Outcome: I'm happy, and he doesn't give a #@$# since he can still wipe his ass with hundred dollar bills.
No one is going to like everything, even things that are very popular. Instead of worrying why you don't have the ame opinion as everyone else, just avoid things you find you don't like. Make your life much better that way.
Obsidian's problem isn't story, that's the reason they're still in business. People hate on Obsidian because every single release is riddled with poor design choices and soul-crushing bugs that should never, eer have made it into a product they were charging people money for.
The only BW story that didn't get me from the start was in Jade Empire. Rest was excelent except NWN, didn't play that.
Also, saying that Mass Effect has "bad" story in whatever context is just blasphemy for me, dont even wanna hear it. Its one of the best games overall I played and its story was beautiful. It wasn't really inovative, but who says it has to be?
"To be a rock and not to roll..."
I have no opinion either way about TOR as I haven't really followed Bioware's Star Wars games at all (I'm one of the maybe 20 gamers who hasn't). Love the original movies. Lukewarm (no that's not a pun) about the prequels. Love the setting and the lore. Could never get into the games, even as far back as the old wireframe coin-ops of the 80s.
I just wanted to duck in here and, honestly, commend every single person seriously discussing this, which ever side you're on. To see people actually discussing storyline as an important - or at least relevant - part of a MMORPG is very refreshing and heartening to see.
I was beginning to think the MMO community (very generally speaking) was going on a vehemently "action only" path where the only thing that matters is how powerful your character is and how quickly you could get it there, or if you can beat the other guy at... whatever.
I'm not convinced that pre-determined, linear storylines are "appropriate" for MMORPGs... I'm still of the mind that linear, guided stories are best suited for single player games, while MMORPGs are better served with "settings" which a player could choose to engage in, or not engage in at all. Still, it's cool to see there are still some people who care about good storytelling.
Anyway... Great read!
-ducking out now-
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
When you read a book, are you actively participating in the story? No. Reading is a passive experience. It may play out in your mind's eye. You may be totally engrossed in the characters and the events of the story, but it is not your story, it's the authors story, and you are along for the ride. Gaming on the other hand is a more active medium and it really doesn't make sense to put thousands of people together in an space opera adventure and have them read stories. The whole point is to LIVE the experience. Or atleast I thought it was.
Well, since you're not reading a book, I don't see what that has to do with it.
The model they're using is from single player games, nothing to do with reading books or watching movies passively.
That's sort of the point... they're using a model from single player RPG gaming. Bioware's games feature story tailored for a center of the universe experience. Great for single player... but the question is will the same work on an MMO scale? That's the hundred million dollar question that Bioware is gambling with.
I have no doubt SWTOR will kill in box sales. However, sustained long-term subscription is where the real question is. This pretty much hinges on whether or not Bioware can sustainably keep pumping out interesting story content to keep people entertained.
I had to read a story for ZORK, spaceship warlock, ect. Still hat to punch hocktuey or manually tell my dude to lift a rug. Pretty much all gaming experience deals with a combination of directed narrative mixed with gameplay. Gameplay, if it exists in said game.
Either way, sandbox /=/ themepark. There are plenty of other games around offering what people with differing tastes want.
But it isn't JUST a SPG RPG gaming model. Sure, all eight class story arcs are aimed at the SPG part of themepark MMOs. The leveling that many players just click through and ignore while they speed to level cap. But there are other stories as well.
World faction stories that require grouping are a completely different story. They occur on just about every planet but starter planets. Flashpoints and Operations will have their own stories as well for group play. As well as something on the level 50 planet James talked a bit about. And possibly a part of the "never before seen in a MMO" content yet to be announced.
I understand wanting a virtual world to live in, but you can not live in a game world with todays tech. You have to use RP and player politics to imagine living in a game. Personally I would rather live the IP story based on the lore with some choice to influence my characters progression.
How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them?
R.A.Salvatore
I've been wondering this as well. Beyond leveling up a buch of characters to max level and raiding a bunch, what is left? Tbh, I think Swtor will face the same conundrum that every content oriented mmo faces. The challenge of providing content faster than players go through it without making previous progress seem wasted, and without making the socialization pillar unnecessary.
If you can release content fast, will it be good? Will it be better than what was there before? Will it invalidate previous and very recent progress making the pursuit seem fruitless? Lastly. Willy it come too slow for the hardcore, or too fast for the regular/casual?
It's very tough to weigh all of these in as more often or not they directly conflic with eachother.
The only part of the game that feels like the single play experience is the emphasis on the player or players, the npcs notice the player(s) and (s)he can make deicions that will affect how the game appears to that player(s).
The mechanics however can be used for multiple people, remember that outside of the personal story every player in the group can affect how the story plays out. Each class/gender can tweak the experience a little bit. Bringing certain people can even alter which parts of the dungeon you have access to.
at the end i'm not sure that the dialog wheel and cinematics are predifined to just single players games or are limited it to single player games only or having them makes the game any less multiplayer.
You are however right SW;ToR has to hold long term, but thats not really new to MMOs or singular to SW;TOR this question has to be asked of every single MMo, does it have features that can (when the main attraction wears off) hold the player base, if it does then it can be successful, if it doesn't, then it won't. Lots of new stuff coming down the pipe and all have their issues that could kill long term, but they also have thier pluses that can help keep them long term.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
whats ur point? wanna sort it out??
Chins
ok then name a mmo that has all voice and no reading in it. i played them all none of em have it name a mmo that has crafting system were your npcs craft and you dont none. dont have it >.> so yeah bioware does have some stuff other mmos dont have. so yeah its about story some people like storys some dont. this game dont have to appeal to you if you dont like it dont buy it simple.
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Now is this a problem only TOR suffers from? Most themepark games use elements of single player RPG's, the difference here is one of presentation, not really much else. The MMO part ia something else entirely, and we can never tell how it's going to be until we reach the cap stage of the game, longevity is something we'll never know until we've given up due to boredom or are still playing 2-3 years later.
The million dollar question of this thread is will the story presentation be better served than typcial MMO story presentation. Which I side on Biowares corner, as I've felt story presentation is something that has really been lacking in Themepark MMO's. They more or less are all story oriented, the problem is it's always been presented like a bad novel, rather than an engrossing narrative.
This is the big difference between Themepark design and Sandbox design, a sandbox isn't really about narrative outside of that which you create for yourself. This isn't the case with Themeparks, from WOW to Lotro to AOC etc.. They're all about an overall story. The problem is in most cases the story isn't presented in a way that draws interest to it.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I've always thought Bioware's greatest strength was making memorable characters, they've had some really interesting companion characters over the years, and I can't think of another in the industry that does that as well as them.
As far as storytelling goes, they are a solid story telling company, but not amazing.
Guildwars uses NPCs to craft stuff for you, you provide the parts and they charge you. Sounds exactly the same to me. Yeah, it is a CORPG.
All voice acting on the other hand have never been done on this scale, AoC probably have the most voice acting in a game besides TOR.
Yeah, "Go for the eyes, Boo"...:)
True, NPCs have been the part where no one can compete with them. A few other games have had good NPCs as well (like Planescape:Torment) but Bioware have a very high percentage memorable NPC. The bad news is that they have lost a bit of the magic lately, Isabella and the dwarf were the only 2 worth noticing in DA 2.
It's not even mildly close to being a gamble. I'd be willing to bet my house that it is far more effective and fun than the experience the massive majority of players are getting out of the current MMOs leveling progression. The storyline aspect of this game is solid, it will be well received and it will set a new standard.
If anything is going to cost SWTOR subs, it will be a lack of content at end-game and/or a poor PvP experience. That is the only question mark on this game.
In my option, Bioware doesn't do stories well.
They do characters well.
These chracters are Bioware's stamp, and what's kept me playing their games over the years (well, BG and NwN both had a nice mix of good story and characters.... *goes away and pokes Boo in the tummy*)
Anything untried is always a gamble, even if Bioware probably have the odds on their side on this.
I am actually more worried about the gear focus on the game, I don't think it fit the SW IP at all, and neither does the holy triad. While former Wow player might like it they risk losing the Star wars fans on these things. The traditional MMO players who love that stuff might on the other hand be turned off by the companion system.
I doubt that the PvP experience will influence the subscriber numbers that much, it is clear that this games main focus is PvE and I think 90% of the interested people are pure PvE or at best casual PvP:ers who play a lot of PvE as well.
As for endgame content it seems like it will have plenty but with the usual Wow raiding at the end. That has worked before at least.
It's not by any means the only problem TOR might suffer from. It looks as though it will suffer from the exact same issues that pretty much any other themepark MMO would suffer from. From what has been released by Bioware pertaining to the mechanics of the game, I honestly only see two main points that would set the game apart from the competition, and that is story and voice overs. Though technically, in some ways it could consider that they technically boil down to being one and the same actually thing since they're both in part of presenting a quality storytelling experience.
Essentially, from what I can see TOR looks to like it will be a one trick pony when compared to it's peers. That one trick of course, being presenting a deep storyline experience (Voice overs included). As I mentioned earlier in prior posts, is what my concern of the longterm viability of the game. If it does truly turn out that Bioware cannot consistently pump out content of a high enough volume and quality to keep the greater population busy and entertained, then the game could lose it's identity and very well end up being labled as yet another bland cookie cutter themepark MMO in the long run.
I honestly don't know how things will turn out, but it does look like it could be a very daunting task ahead for Bioware to keep SWTOR players entertained in the long haul.
It's not untried, its been done in RPGs over and over again for a decade now. There is almost zero difference in the leveling aspect of an MMORPG and an solo RPG, outside of one of them using text instead of voice and cinematics to tell the story. It's like saying a Porche is a less appealing car than a Festiva, its ridiculous.
The PvP experience always dictates numbers to a larger degree than PvE players like to pretend., because casual/hardcare PvEers are largly atleast casual PvPers. And because a good PvP system fills in some gaps when it comes to end-game content. It's one of the reasons WoW was so successful amongst me and my friends for many years. When we didn't have PvE content to explore (for whatever reason) we could always do a few arenas, or jump into a BG and have fun... because despite what any haters say, WoWs combat system is a fun system to PvP with. That is something SWTOR will be well served by, especially when its still in its early days and not heavy on end-game PvE content yet.
No game launches with enough raid content to keep people busy for long at end-game. SWTOR will be no different in that respect, they will also struggle to produce raid content at the same level as Blizzard, because of all the cinematic, writing, and voiceover work they need to do in addition to the actual gameplay. They will need other aspects to fill in the gaps, whether it be dailies, PvP, crafting, exploring, collecting, etc
In regards to the OP; I'm not amazed by Bioware's stories either. However, Bioware does tend to do this far better than most when it comes to video games. They do know how to tell a good story within a video game, however when compared to other forms of entertainment the stories are nothing spectacular.
If there is one thing SWTOR should have done well, it'll be the storyline. Whether or not the majority of players will care is another matter entirely, though.