While we agree that MO still needs work, I think that the problems the game has are routinely exaggerated for dramatic or sensationalistic effect. Additionally, I think the fact that the game has gotten better overall since launch is largely ignored. No, it's still not perfect, but it's also not as bad as some intentionally try to make it sound. SV has been improving the game - perhaps not as quickly as any of us would like - but it is getting better.
Improving is a good thing, as there really aren't any other games out there that provide the same experience it does.
And I have the opposite viewpoint: that "improvements" are routinely exaggerated here for dramatic or sensationalistic effect.
Is the game "improved" today as opposed to the incredibly horrendous launch? Yes... yes it is. It is better today (at least bug/polish wise). But that is an almost meaningless benchmark. The game launched in a barely functional state so saying it "improved" doesn't really mean much. Has the server stability improved from the first few months when it was down as much as it was up? Yes.. yes it has. Has the server recently been down (multiple times) for days at a time to fix issues? Yes... yes it has. So it's "improved" certainly... but once again.. if you set the bar low enough you can always step over the benchmark.
The problem IMHO is quite honestly that they have built upon a shaky foundation. Much of their earliest coding seems to be at the core of the game which makes sense as you have to start with that and then you build upon it. They were clearly "learning as they went".. and as such made some decisions or used methods which I am sure in hindsight they would change now. Unfortunately what this means is that when they build what might be perfectly fine code on top of that there are unintended consequences. This is also why things that they "fix" are then broken again. This is evidenced again.. and again.. and again with every patch they release.
Then to top that off you have their CEO making promises that he clearly cannot deliver on. He raises hopes and strings people along so it becomes a double whammy. Not only do players NOT get the features which were promised but then the patches come (though quite sparingly of late) and break things.
So.. (again in MY opinion) would there have been several differences between the state MO was released in by SV, and what it would have been released in had it been developed by a truely AAA company? Most definately yes.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I am want to say this one more time. I don't think most people care about getting the disks. SV said they would do it and did not. They should at least come out and say they will not do it. There was thread after thread on the MO forums on this and each one was answered with a "we will get back to you".
I hate disks. . steam, D2D etc. are my best friends. . I can't keep a CD key around to save my life and everytime I reformat my PC it is a lot less work to grab digital donwload. I guess I am old fashioned though in thinking that companies should deliver what they said they would especially when it is something someone is pre-ordering based soley on their faith in the company! All they were selling at that point was a promise and they didn't deliver. Is it a major component. . not for me but still they need to address it. It just looks bad.
I partially agree with you. I am old fashioned also, but I want my client on media, and I want the free expansions on media that I paid for during their pre-order promotion years ago. My point that is if I bought it and paid for it, I should receive it no matter what others think about client on media. As of today, I have got nothing to show for my $75.00 USD. THEY STOLE MY MONEY.
I partially agree with you. I am old fashioned also, but I want my client on media, and I want the free expansions on media that I paid for during their pre-order promotion years ago. My point that is if I bought it and paid for it, I should receive it no matter what others think about client on media. As of today, I have got nothing to show for my $75.00 USD. THEY STOLE MY MONEY.
I totally understand the desire for physical media. I buy music on CDs rather than iTunes so that my fair use rights are totally independent of any specific computer, internet access, itunes account etc.
That being said, theft has a bery specific definition. Did you or did you not get an account for your $75? If so, then they did not "steal" anything, Arguably, they "let you down" or possibly even deceived you about the specifics of what you were buying but they did not "steal".
You guys are discussing the pull the plug off for MO or not. Accept that no other company will be taking over the work, as it is not documented (you canbe sure of it, even in big teams, documentation is not perfect, and it is hell of a problem to dechipher the coding of a different team, that's always the case, the ones working for software companies for long enough know this for sure). And while new ideas get integrated in the code in hurry, you get a very fragile and strange dependencies between various parts, becouse it is expensive to get experienced developers, and you are always in hurry. This is the case even for some military projects with teams having ISO certificates.
If SV stops developing MO, it will be burried and will be gone forever. And no other big company will be developing MO kind of game, why would you target 1% of the playerbase while you can go for 99% and try your luck? We all complain if we have to pay more (which is of course reasonable), but are wiling a company to spill out tons of money to earn or have the chance to earn 1/99 of other companies. Don't expect a lot, these are the facts.
I think the best hope for this game would be to drop the subscription cost to $5/month, make the code open source and invite other people to code and submit changes to SV.
SV could manage this process by preparing suggested specifications (assisted by users feedback), reviewing and testing new code, possibly adding some of their own code, and managing the release process.
I'm sure there are plenty of people out there that would like to assist SV and subsequently develop their own skills and CV / resume. Hell I might even have a go myself, its been a few years since I coded in anything but dotnet but why not.
Playing: Darkfall New Dawn (and planning to play Fallout 76) Favourite games have included: UO, Lineage2, Darkfall, Lotro, Baldur's Gate, SSX, FF7 and yes the original Wizardry on an Apple IIe
I think the best hope for this game would be to drop the subscription cost to $5/month, make the code open source and invite other people to code and submit changes to SV.
SV could manage this process by preparing suggested specifications (assisted by users feedback), reviewing and testing new code, possibly adding some of their own code, and managing the release process.
I'm sure there are plenty of people out there that would like to assist SV and subsequently develop their own skills and CV / resume. Hell I might even have a go myself, its been a few years since I coded in anything but dotnet but why not.
and who will own the rights? What happens if SV starts earning money?
I think the best hope for this game would be to drop the subscription cost to $5/month, make the code open source and invite other people to code and submit changes to SV.
SV could manage this process by preparing suggested specifications (assisted by users feedback), reviewing and testing new code, possibly adding some of their own code, and managing the release process.
I'm sure there are plenty of people out there that would like to assist SV and subsequently develop their own skills and CV / resume. Hell I might even have a go myself, its been a few years since I coded in anything but dotnet but why not.
and who will own the rights? What happens if SV starts earning money?
SV would need to make money, to host their servers and manage the specification and review process.
They could however, negotiate with others worldwide to coordinate additional servers in other locations.
There may be a core section of key code that they dont make open source but just provide API's for.
This is all detail though, and could be worked out in time. The key is that the game would then develop quality content at a much faster rate and I feel that the first company to adequately test this model will be surprised by how successful they become.
Playing: Darkfall New Dawn (and planning to play Fallout 76) Favourite games have included: UO, Lineage2, Darkfall, Lotro, Baldur's Gate, SSX, FF7 and yes the original Wizardry on an Apple IIe
I partially agree with you. I am old fashioned also, but I want my client on media, and I want the free expansions on media that I paid for during their pre-order promotion years ago. My point that is if I bought it and paid for it, I should receive it no matter what others think about client on media. As of today, I have got nothing to show for my $75.00 USD. THEY STOLE MY MONEY.
I totally understand the desire for physical media. I buy music on CDs rather than iTunes so that my fair use rights are totally independent of any specific computer, internet access, itunes account etc.
That being said, theft has a bery specific definition. Did you or did you not get an account for your $75? If so, then they did not "steal" anything, Arguably, they "let you down" or possibly even deceived you about the specifics of what you were buying but they did not "steal".
Haha , what is the value of an account, if I don't have the game? What is the value of an account it they STOLE my 30 days that I paid for. I have a LOTRO account, Did not pay a dime for it. I have an Entropia, and Allods account havent paid a dime for those. You are trying to tell me I paid $75.00 USD for an account? Get out of here.They are a bunch of Con-Artist and thieves. I stand by that description.
Interesting idea. Sounds much like the way that Wurm operates. For better or worse, I don't think that would be an option for MO since they can't really open-source the developer version of UE3, Atlas, or Grome.
@ Shortybible:
You don't have the game and can't get the game (digital download)?
You should be able to get the game as a digital download even without a paid account. https://account.mortalonline.com/ Are you unable to do so because of poor internet access? If so you may need to rethink playing MMOs since any that you play will require frequent downloading of updates.
Looking over your posting history its obvious that not having a disc is your number one gripe with MO. Why you " [refuse] to download 10 gigs" for MO when you "downloaded 19 or 20 gigs for this game.[Vanguard]" is beyond me.
If you were saying they "stole" $40 (the difference between the digital download and the boxed version) you would have made a point. Of course then the whole argument would hinge around the relative value of the physical memorobilia (metal box vs. outdated DVD)
Interesting idea. Sounds much like the way that Wurm operates. For better or worse, I don't think that would be an option for MO since they can't really open-source the developer version of UE3, Atlas, or Grome.
@ Shortybible:
You don't have the game and can't get the game (digital download)?
You should be able to get the game as a digital download even without a paid account. https://account.mortalonline.com/ Are you unable to do so because of poor internet access? If so you may need to rethink playing MMOs since any that you play will require frequent downloading of updates.
Looking over your posting history its obvious that not having a disc is your number one gripe with MO. Why you " [refuse] to download 10 gigs" for MO when you "downloaded 19 or 20 gigs for this game.[Vanguard]" is beyond me.
If you were saying they "stole" $40 (the difference between the digital download and the boxed version) you would have made a point. Of course then the whole argument would hinge around the relative value of the physical memorobilia (metal box vs. outdated DVD)
What I choose to do with my bandwidth is my business. I did not pay $75.00 USD for vanguard. If Starvault was selling roasted peanuts, and I bought some, but they sent me only peanut shells, that is stealing. You can call it mail fraud , internet scam, or whatever, I am bring it down to it's lowest denominator. STEALING.
I am simply amaze, how some posters on these boards, try to justify the pre-order scam and the billing scam, I am sure there a few more scams they have used. Fourtunately I am sure many of the readers on these boards, haven't drank the Kool-Aid, or have planks in their eyes, and can see right thru the Bovine Feces.
Interesting idea. Sounds much like the way that Wurm operates. For better or worse, I don't think that would be an option for MO since they can't really open-source the developer version of UE3, Atlas, or Grome.
@ Shortybible:
You don't have the game and can't get the game (digital download)?
You should be able to get the game as a digital download even without a paid account. https://account.mortalonline.com/ Are you unable to do so because of poor internet access? If so you may need to rethink playing MMOs since any that you play will require frequent downloading of updates.
Looking over your posting history its obvious that not having a disc is your number one gripe with MO. Why you " [refuse] to download 10 gigs" for MO when you "downloaded 19 or 20 gigs for this game.[Vanguard]" is beyond me.
If you were saying they "stole" $40 (the difference between the digital download and the boxed version) you would have made a point. Of course then the whole argument would hinge around the relative value of the physical memorobilia (metal box vs. outdated DVD)
Like I said before even a fanboy can not justify a company not giving people what they pay for, putdated or not. If you pay for something and they do ot give it to you it is stealing. {mod edit} Personally I would rather only get digital copies. But if I paid for a working DVD and did not get it, and was promised I would get a working DVD and I didn't I would be pissed. And so would you.
Like I also said before what other business would you tolerate this happening??? NONE!
Interesting idea. Sounds much like the way that Wurm operates. For better or worse, I don't think that would be an option for MO since they can't really open-source the developer version of UE3, Atlas, or Grome.
@ Shortybible:
You don't have the game and can't get the game (digital download)?
You should be able to get the game as a digital download even without a paid account. https://account.mortalonline.com/ Are you unable to do so because of poor internet access? If so you may need to rethink playing MMOs since any that you play will require frequent downloading of updates.
Looking over your posting history its obvious that not having a disc is your number one gripe with MO. Why you " [refuse] to download 10 gigs" for MO when you "downloaded 19 or 20 gigs for this game.[Vanguard]" is beyond me.
If you were saying they "stole" $40 (the difference between the digital download and the boxed version) you would have made a point. Of course then the whole argument would hinge around the relative value of the physical memorobilia (metal box vs. outdated DVD)
What I choose to do with my bandwidth is my business. I did not pay $75.00 USD for vanguard. If Starvault was selling roasted peanuts, and I bought some, but they sent me only peanut shells, that is stealing. You can call it mail fraud , internet scam, or whatever, I am bring it down to it's lowest denominator. STEALING.
I am simply amaze, how some posters on these boards, try to justify the pre-order scam and the billing scam, I am sure there a few more scams they have used. Fourtunately I am sure many of the readers on these boards, haven't drank the Kool-Aid, or have planks in their eyes, and can see right thru the Bovine Feces.
I honestly had only an opinion of the GAME before SV went ahead and turned on auto-billing without people's permission. It cost friends of mine quite a few months in subscription fees, some of whom had luck with their credit card companies to refute the charges.
That's where I turned against SV and their unethical behavior. It is ridiculous that people come here to defend a group of people who have literally gone ahead and stolen from people all in the name of keeping a piece of crap game alive. It's disgusting, and you should be ashamed of yourselves.
Oh, and MO won't go open source and nobody will buy it. The reasons are all listed above.
Originally posted by HerculesSAS Originally posted by ShortyBible
Originally posted by osmunda
@ marcust: Interesting idea. Sounds much like the way that Wurm operates. For better or worse, I don't think that would be an option for MO since they can't really open-source the developer version of UE3, Atlas, or Grome. @ Shortybible: You don't have the game and can't get the game (digital download)? You should be able to get the game as a digital download even without a paid account. https://account.mortalonline.com/ Are you unable to do so because of poor internet access? If so you may need to rethink playing MMOs since any that you play will require frequent downloading of updates. Looking over your posting history its obvious that not having a disc is your number one gripe with MO. Why you " [refuse] to download 10 gigs" for MO when you "downloaded 19 or 20 gigs for this game.[Vanguard]" is beyond me. If you were saying they "stole" $40 (the difference between the digital download and the boxed version) you would have made a point. Of course then the whole argument would hinge around the relative value of the physical memorobilia (metal box vs. outdated DVD)
What I choose to do with my bandwidth is my business. I did not pay $75.00 USD for vanguard. If Starvault was selling roasted peanuts, and I bought some, but they sent me only peanut shells, that is stealing. You can call it mail fraud , internet scam, or whatever, I am bring it down to it's lowest denominator. STEALING. I am simply amaze, how some posters on these boards, try to justify the pre-order scam and the billing scam, I am sure there a few more scams they have used. Fourtunately I am sure many of the readers on these boards, haven't drank the Kool-Aid, or have planks in their eyes, and can see right thru the Bovine Feces. I honestly had only an opinion of the GAME before SV went ahead and turned on auto-billing without people's permission. It cost friends of mine quite a few months in subscription fees, some of whom had luck with their credit card companies to refute the charges.
That's where I turned against SV and their unethical behavior. It is ridiculous that people come here to defend a group of people who have literally gone ahead and stolen from people all in the name of keeping a piece of crap game alive. It's disgusting, and you should be ashamed of yourselves.
Oh, and MO won't go open source and nobody will buy it. The reasons are all listed above.
There was no auto billing. He bought the game with the full understanding that it was a monthly sub and put his credit card details into his account setting knowing full well that he would be billed monthly once the free period started.
PEOPLE NEED TO STOP TALKING UTTER SHIT ABOUT THAT "AUTO BILLING" SHITE.
Interesting idea. Sounds much like the way that Wurm operates. For better or worse, I don't think that would be an option for MO since they can't really open-source the developer version of UE3, Atlas, or Grome.
@ Shortybible:
You don't have the game and can't get the game (digital download)?
You should be able to get the game as a digital download even without a paid account. https://account.mortalonline.com/ Are you unable to do so because of poor internet access? If so you may need to rethink playing MMOs since any that you play will require frequent downloading of updates.
Looking over your posting history its obvious that not having a disc is your number one gripe with MO. Why you " [refuse] to download 10 gigs" for MO when you "downloaded 19 or 20 gigs for this game.[Vanguard]" is beyond me.
If you were saying they "stole" $40 (the difference between the digital download and the boxed version) you would have made a point. Of course then the whole argument would hinge around the relative value of the physical memorobilia (metal box vs. outdated DVD)
What I choose to do with my bandwidth is my business. I did not pay $75.00 USD for vanguard. If Starvault was selling roasted peanuts, and I bought some, but they sent me only peanut shells, that is stealing. You can call it mail fraud , internet scam, or whatever, I am bring it down to it's lowest denominator. STEALING.
I am simply amaze, how some posters on these boards, try to justify the pre-order scam and the billing scam, I am sure there a few more scams they have used. Fourtunately I am sure many of the readers on these boards, haven't drank the Kool-Aid, or have planks in their eyes, and can see right thru the Bovine Feces.
I honestly had only an opinion of the GAME before SV went ahead and turned on auto-billing without people's permission. It cost friends of mine quite a few months in subscription fees, some of whom had luck with their credit card companies to refute the charges.
That's where I turned against SV and their unethical behavior. It is ridiculous that people come here to defend a group of people who have literally gone ahead and stolen from people all in the name of keeping a piece of crap game alive. It's disgusting, and you should be ashamed of yourselves.
Oh, and MO won't go open source and nobody will buy it. The reasons are all listed above.
There was no auto billing. He bought the game with the full understanding that it was a monthly sub and put his credit card details into his account setting knowing full well that he would be billed monthly once the free period started.
PEOPLE NEED TO STOP TALKING UTTER SHIT ABOUT THAT "AUTO BILLING" SHITE.
I know people do need to stop talking out of their ass. When people bought the game to get into beta ( a year or more before release) They were not told they would be auto billed. If you can find some proof to the opposite please provide it. Now when alot of those people stopped playing in beta and forgot about the game. When the game was released they were not sent an email telling them they were going to be billed like any self respecting company would of done. They just did it.
There was no auto billing. He bought the game with the full understanding that it was a monthly sub and put his credit card details into his account setting knowing full well that he would be billed monthly once the free period started.
PEOPLE NEED TO STOP TALKING UTTER SHIT ABOUT THAT "AUTO BILLING" SHITE.
This is a factually incorrect statement and has been proven so repeatedly. The original TOS of the game (in effect when the pre-orders were taken) stated that billing would occur AFTER the customer selected a subscription duration and payment method. Neighter happened. SV just auto subscribed everyone. They later CHANGED their TOS to reflect this, but the one in place from the day pre-orders were taken until like 1 month before release clearly stated that you would only be billed AFTER you selected your sub type and payment method (and the new TOS was not agreed to by some of the folks they tried to charge).
Again, not typical behavior one would expect from a AAA company (or any company actually) and behavior like this is really why I think that SV needs to go.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Interesting idea. Sounds much like the way that Wurm operates. For better or worse, I don't think that would be an option for MO since they can't really open-source the developer version of UE3, Atlas, or Grome.
@ Shortybible:
You don't have the game and can't get the game (digital download)?
You should be able to get the game as a digital download even without a paid account. https://account.mortalonline.com/ Are you unable to do so because of poor internet access? If so you may need to rethink playing MMOs since any that you play will require frequent downloading of updates.
Looking over your posting history its obvious that not having a disc is your number one gripe with MO. Why you " [refuse] to download 10 gigs" for MO when you "downloaded 19 or 20 gigs for this game.[Vanguard]" is beyond me.
If you were saying they "stole" $40 (the difference between the digital download and the boxed version) you would have made a point. Of course then the whole argument would hinge around the relative value of the physical memorobilia (metal box vs. outdated DVD)
What I choose to do with my bandwidth is my business. I did not pay $75.00 USD for vanguard. If Starvault was selling roasted peanuts, and I bought some, but they sent me only peanut shells, that is stealing. You can call it mail fraud , internet scam, or whatever, I am bring it down to it's lowest denominator. STEALING.
I am simply amaze, how some posters on these boards, try to justify the pre-order scam and the billing scam, I am sure there a few more scams they have used. Fourtunately I am sure many of the readers on these boards, haven't drank the Kool-Aid, or have planks in their eyes, and can see right thru the Bovine Feces.
I honestly had only an opinion of the GAME before SV went ahead and turned on auto-billing without people's permission. It cost friends of mine quite a few months in subscription fees, some of whom had luck with their credit card companies to refute the charges.
That's where I turned against SV and their unethical behavior. It is ridiculous that people come here to defend a group of people who have literally gone ahead and stolen from people all in the name of keeping a piece of crap game alive. It's disgusting, and you should be ashamed of yourselves.
Oh, and MO won't go open source and nobody will buy it. The reasons are all listed above.
There was no auto billing. He bought the game with the full understanding that it was a monthly sub and put his credit card details into his account setting knowing full well that he would be billed monthly once the free period started.
PEOPLE NEED TO STOP TALKING UTTER SHIT ABOUT THAT "AUTO BILLING" SHITE.
I know people do need to stop talking out of their ass. When people bought the game to get into beta ( a year or more before release) They were not told they would be auto billed. If you can find some proof to the opposite please provide it. Now when alot of those people stopped playing in beta and forgot about the game. When the game was released they were not sent an email telling them they were going to be billed like any self respecting company would of done. They just did it.
They did contact everyone via e-mail. Saying that they did not isn't an exaggeration, it's a lie.
They did contact everyone via e-mail. Saying that they did not isn't an exaggeration, it's a lie.
Yes. They did in fact send out an Email. Part of the email did mention that the free month was going to start. I do not remember if it said that customers who had not chosen a subscription duration or payment method would be auto enrolled. If you still have a copy of the Email just put it up for us to see so we can verify.
Also, even if it DID say all that (which I doubt) that wouldn't make it legal and or ethical to auto sub people who hadnt even logged into the game in almost a year , against the very terms of the TOS the player agreed to...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
They did contact everyone via e-mail. Saying that they did not isn't an exaggeration, it's a lie.
Yes. They did in fact send out an Email. Part of the email did mention that the free month was going to start. I do not remember if it said that customers who had not chosen a subscription duration or payment method would be auto enrolled. If you still have a copy of the Email just put it up for us to see so we can verify.
Also, even if it DID say all that (which I doubt) that wouldn't make it legal and or ethical to auto sub people who hadnt even logged into the game in almost a year , against the very terms of the TOS the player agreed to...
So, it is ethical to other for your mistakes? If do not log in for a year to check up on the statue of the product they bought who fault is that? It would be the person who bought the product. Plus all TOS have a "subject change at any time" clause in them.
They did contact everyone via e-mail. Saying that they did not isn't an exaggeration, it's a lie.
Yes. They did in fact send out an Email. Part of the email did mention that the free month was going to start. I do not remember if it said that customers who had not chosen a subscription duration or payment method would be auto enrolled. If you still have a copy of the Email just put it up for us to see so we can verify.
Also, even if it DID say all that (which I doubt) that wouldn't make it legal and or ethical to auto sub people who hadnt even logged into the game in almost a year , against the very terms of the TOS the player agreed to...
So, it is ethical to other for your mistakes? If do not log in for a year to check up on the statue of the product they bought who fault is that? It would be the person who bought the product. Plus all TOS have a "subject change at any time" clause in them.
What are you even talking about? When they bought the game a year before launch they were clearly TOLD in the TOS that their subscription would only start AFTER THEY CHOSE A SUBSCRIPTION TYPE AND PAYMENT METHOD. Neither of those occurred. How is that in any way shape or form the "mistake" of the customer? And yes TOS do in fact say they can be changed which is why YOU HAVE TO AGREE TO THE NEW TOS EVERYTIME THEY CHANGE!. Otherwise do you think a company can change the TOS to say "On July 21st, 2011 we will bill you $1,212,122? ROFL. To top it off the ACCOUNTS part of the website was not operational for about 8 months after they started taking pre-orders so even if they WANTED to go an cancel the subscription they never signed up for.. there was no way to do so...
Anyhow.. here is the discussion on the matter when it happened... with a very eloquent post by an actual FAN of the game who hated the way SV did this. Heck, there is even a "Mea Culpa" from someone who said SV would never do this but was proved wrong...
They did contact everyone via e-mail. Saying that they did not isn't an exaggeration, it's a lie.
Yes. They did in fact send out an Email. Part of the email did mention that the free month was going to start. I do not remember if it said that customers who had not chosen a subscription duration or payment method would be auto enrolled. If you still have a copy of the Email just put it up for us to see so we can verify.
Also, even if it DID say all that (which I doubt) that wouldn't make it legal and or ethical to auto sub people who hadnt even logged into the game in almost a year , against the very terms of the TOS the player agreed to...
I can't be assed to upload a screenshot somewhere but I do have the email and here is the copy and paste of the text...
Mortal Online Customer Information
June 9th 2010
Auto-subscription
Today Mortal Online goes live!
You are receiving this email because of your Mortal Online pre-order purchase. The initial free month you received with your game purchase begins today, and regular billing will begin one month from today.
If you do not wish to auto-subscribe, please log into your account [Link] and cancel the option.
We also want to formally inform you about the new TOS, the Naming Policy, the EULA and the Reimbursement Policy.
Explain why you are reporting this post: (750 characters max.)
Just because a comany sends you an e-mail saying they are going to charge you does not mean that you authorized it. They can not charge it without your authorization.
Explain why you are reporting this post: (750 characters max.)
First of all the "mea culpa" I mentioned before. I did previously note that SV had no intention of billing people who did not wish to play the game. Obviously, that has been done regardless of what there intent may have been. All the people who do not wish to continue their subscription and have not logged in since the end of the free month are entitled to a refund.
By sending out an e-mail notification of the game launching and the need to cancel subscriptions before the end of the free month, Starvault may have met the minimum legal and ethical standard. (Damning with faint praise) Clearly a better system could have been put in place (i.e. approving charges when you first log in after the free month ended) All of that being said, they may not have been able to implement anything along those lines or any other system that didn't become an obstacle to those who did wish to subscribe. As such we may just now be seeing the end result of a decision made several months ago.
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Don't understand the confusion here. What SV did was outright fraud. There was no agreement by the customer to be billed for monthly charges. Should be no problem with any bank reversing the charges. Personally I would be contacting my attorney general because of the fraud.
This is not the first time a MMO has done this. Does not speak well for the company or the game either. Pretty much ended the previous MMO's who did such a dirty deed too
Or (edited to the core of the message, feel free to click and read the whole thing:
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Originally posted by HerculesSAS
Now instead of owning up to saying "yea it happened", it's more a crusade to prove people are telling lies, or finding one little argument in their posts that allows them to disregard the whole thing entirely. You really should take Aetheryn, zekkcc, aesbestos, and Xianthos off your ignore list, as all of them have "owned up" in THIS thread, despite wishing that the game does well..
Simply put.. company broke their own TOS and attempted to do the absolute minimum to provide plausible deniability. Even the fans of the game like Osmunda, Aethaeryn, zekkcc and others "owned up" in the thread that what SV did was pretty pathetic.
Instead of rehashing old and buried arguments just read the thread. Revisionist history not required.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
The game is the property of one man. That man is not going to give it up now is he?
He has invested lots of his fathers money into the game.
Why would he sell his own game?
What a stupid post.
He actually said he was open to selling MO, maybe you should read and become informed before you post anything. What a stupid post.
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The game is the property of one man. That man is not going to give it up now is he?
He has invested lots of his fathers money into the game.
Why would he sell his own game?
What a stupid post.
He actually said he was open to selling MO, maybe you should read and become informed before you post anything. What a stupid post.
Geeze I'd sell it too. He's watching the entire invesment circling the drain. With an expression of sheer horror I'm sure.
Pretty much.
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Comments
And I have the opposite viewpoint: that "improvements" are routinely exaggerated here for dramatic or sensationalistic effect.
Is the game "improved" today as opposed to the incredibly horrendous launch? Yes... yes it is. It is better today (at least bug/polish wise). But that is an almost meaningless benchmark. The game launched in a barely functional state so saying it "improved" doesn't really mean much. Has the server stability improved from the first few months when it was down as much as it was up? Yes.. yes it has. Has the server recently been down (multiple times) for days at a time to fix issues? Yes... yes it has. So it's "improved" certainly... but once again.. if you set the bar low enough you can always step over the benchmark.
The problem IMHO is quite honestly that they have built upon a shaky foundation. Much of their earliest coding seems to be at the core of the game which makes sense as you have to start with that and then you build upon it. They were clearly "learning as they went".. and as such made some decisions or used methods which I am sure in hindsight they would change now. Unfortunately what this means is that when they build what might be perfectly fine code on top of that there are unintended consequences. This is also why things that they "fix" are then broken again. This is evidenced again.. and again.. and again with every patch they release.
Then to top that off you have their CEO making promises that he clearly cannot deliver on. He raises hopes and strings people along so it becomes a double whammy. Not only do players NOT get the features which were promised but then the patches come (though quite sparingly of late) and break things.
So.. (again in MY opinion) would there have been several differences between the state MO was released in by SV, and what it would have been released in had it been developed by a truely AAA company? Most definately yes.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I partially agree with you. I am old fashioned also, but I want my client on media, and I want the free expansions on media that I paid for during their pre-order promotion years ago. My point that is if I bought it and paid for it, I should receive it no matter what others think about client on media. As of today, I have got nothing to show for my $75.00 USD. THEY STOLE MY MONEY.
http://www.entropiapartners.com/?r=22415
That is so not true haha.
http://www.entropiapartners.com/?r=22415
I totally understand the desire for physical media. I buy music on CDs rather than iTunes so that my fair use rights are totally independent of any specific computer, internet access, itunes account etc.
That being said, theft has a bery specific definition. Did you or did you not get an account for your $75? If so, then they did not "steal" anything, Arguably, they "let you down" or possibly even deceived you about the specifics of what you were buying but they did not "steal".
You guys are discussing the pull the plug off for MO or not. Accept that no other company will be taking over the work, as it is not documented (you canbe sure of it, even in big teams, documentation is not perfect, and it is hell of a problem to dechipher the coding of a different team, that's always the case, the ones working for software companies for long enough know this for sure). And while new ideas get integrated in the code in hurry, you get a very fragile and strange dependencies between various parts, becouse it is expensive to get experienced developers, and you are always in hurry. This is the case even for some military projects with teams having ISO certificates.
If SV stops developing MO, it will be burried and will be gone forever. And no other big company will be developing MO kind of game, why would you target 1% of the playerbase while you can go for 99% and try your luck? We all complain if we have to pay more (which is of course reasonable), but are wiling a company to spill out tons of money to earn or have the chance to earn 1/99 of other companies. Don't expect a lot, these are the facts.
I played MO for a couple of months on release.
I think the best hope for this game would be to drop the subscription cost to $5/month, make the code open source and invite other people to code and submit changes to SV.
SV could manage this process by preparing suggested specifications (assisted by users feedback), reviewing and testing new code, possibly adding some of their own code, and managing the release process.
I'm sure there are plenty of people out there that would like to assist SV and subsequently develop their own skills and CV / resume. Hell I might even have a go myself, its been a few years since I coded in anything but dotnet but why not.
Playing: Darkfall New Dawn (and planning to play Fallout 76)
Favourite games have included: UO, Lineage2, Darkfall, Lotro, Baldur's Gate, SSX, FF7 and yes the original Wizardry on an Apple IIe
and who will own the rights? What happens if SV starts earning money?
SV would need to make money, to host their servers and manage the specification and review process.
They could however, negotiate with others worldwide to coordinate additional servers in other locations.
There may be a core section of key code that they dont make open source but just provide API's for.
This is all detail though, and could be worked out in time. The key is that the game would then develop quality content at a much faster rate and I feel that the first company to adequately test this model will be surprised by how successful they become.
Playing: Darkfall New Dawn (and planning to play Fallout 76)
Favourite games have included: UO, Lineage2, Darkfall, Lotro, Baldur's Gate, SSX, FF7 and yes the original Wizardry on an Apple IIe
Haha , what is the value of an account, if I don't have the game? What is the value of an account it they STOLE my 30 days that I paid for. I have a LOTRO account, Did not pay a dime for it. I have an Entropia, and Allods account havent paid a dime for those. You are trying to tell me I paid $75.00 USD for an account? Get out of here.They are a bunch of Con-Artist and thieves. I stand by that description.
http://www.entropiapartners.com/?r=22415
The game is the property of one man. That man is not going to give it up now is he?
He has invested lots of his fathers money into the game.
Why would he sell his own game?
What a stupid post.
@ marcust:
Interesting idea. Sounds much like the way that Wurm operates. For better or worse, I don't think that would be an option for MO since they can't really open-source the developer version of UE3, Atlas, or Grome.
@ Shortybible:
You don't have the game and can't get the game (digital download)?
You should be able to get the game as a digital download even without a paid account. https://account.mortalonline.com/ Are you unable to do so because of poor internet access? If so you may need to rethink playing MMOs since any that you play will require frequent downloading of updates.
Looking over your posting history its obvious that not having a disc is your number one gripe with MO. Why you " [refuse] to download 10 gigs" for MO when you "downloaded 19 or 20 gigs for this game.[Vanguard]" is beyond me.
If you were saying they "stole" $40 (the difference between the digital download and the boxed version) you would have made a point. Of course then the whole argument would hinge around the relative value of the physical memorobilia (metal box vs. outdated DVD)
What I choose to do with my bandwidth is my business. I did not pay $75.00 USD for vanguard. If Starvault was selling roasted peanuts, and I bought some, but they sent me only peanut shells, that is stealing. You can call it mail fraud , internet scam, or whatever, I am bring it down to it's lowest denominator. STEALING.
I am simply amaze, how some posters on these boards, try to justify the pre-order scam and the billing scam, I am sure there a few more scams they have used. Fourtunately I am sure many of the readers on these boards, haven't drank the Kool-Aid, or have planks in their eyes, and can see right thru the Bovine Feces.
http://www.entropiapartners.com/?r=22415
Like I said before even a fanboy can not justify a company not giving people what they pay for, putdated or not. If you pay for something and they do ot give it to you it is stealing. {mod edit} Personally I would rather only get digital copies. But if I paid for a working DVD and did not get it, and was promised I would get a working DVD and I didn't I would be pissed. And so would you.
Like I also said before what other business would you tolerate this happening??? NONE!
I honestly had only an opinion of the GAME before SV went ahead and turned on auto-billing without people's permission. It cost friends of mine quite a few months in subscription fees, some of whom had luck with their credit card companies to refute the charges.
That's where I turned against SV and their unethical behavior. It is ridiculous that people come here to defend a group of people who have literally gone ahead and stolen from people all in the name of keeping a piece of crap game alive. It's disgusting, and you should be ashamed of yourselves.
Oh, and MO won't go open source and nobody will buy it. The reasons are all listed above.
I am simply amaze, how some posters on these boards, try to justify the pre-order scam and the billing scam, I am sure there a few more scams they have used. Fourtunately I am sure many of the readers on these boards, haven't drank the Kool-Aid, or have planks in their eyes, and can see right thru the Bovine Feces.
I honestly had only an opinion of the GAME before SV went ahead and turned on auto-billing without people's permission. It cost friends of mine quite a few months in subscription fees, some of whom had luck with their credit card companies to refute the charges.
That's where I turned against SV and their unethical behavior. It is ridiculous that people come here to defend a group of people who have literally gone ahead and stolen from people all in the name of keeping a piece of crap game alive. It's disgusting, and you should be ashamed of yourselves.
Oh, and MO won't go open source and nobody will buy it. The reasons are all listed above.
There was no auto billing. He bought the game with the full understanding that it was a monthly sub and put his credit card details into his account setting knowing full well that he would be billed monthly once the free period started.
PEOPLE NEED TO STOP TALKING UTTER SHIT ABOUT THAT "AUTO BILLING" SHITE.
I know people do need to stop talking out of their ass. When people bought the game to get into beta ( a year or more before release) They were not told they would be auto billed. If you can find some proof to the opposite please provide it. Now when alot of those people stopped playing in beta and forgot about the game. When the game was released they were not sent an email telling them they were going to be billed like any self respecting company would of done. They just did it.
This is a factually incorrect statement and has been proven so repeatedly. The original TOS of the game (in effect when the pre-orders were taken) stated that billing would occur AFTER the customer selected a subscription duration and payment method. Neighter happened. SV just auto subscribed everyone. They later CHANGED their TOS to reflect this, but the one in place from the day pre-orders were taken until like 1 month before release clearly stated that you would only be billed AFTER you selected your sub type and payment method (and the new TOS was not agreed to by some of the folks they tried to charge).
Again, not typical behavior one would expect from a AAA company (or any company actually) and behavior like this is really why I think that SV needs to go.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
They did contact everyone via e-mail. Saying that they did not isn't an exaggeration, it's a lie.
Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.
Yes. They did in fact send out an Email. Part of the email did mention that the free month was going to start. I do not remember if it said that customers who had not chosen a subscription duration or payment method would be auto enrolled. If you still have a copy of the Email just put it up for us to see so we can verify.
Also, even if it DID say all that (which I doubt) that wouldn't make it legal and or ethical to auto sub people who hadnt even logged into the game in almost a year , against the very terms of the TOS the player agreed to...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
So, it is ethical to other for your mistakes? If do not log in for a year to check up on the statue of the product they bought who fault is that? It would be the person who bought the product. Plus all TOS have a "subject change at any time" clause in them.
What are you even talking about? When they bought the game a year before launch they were clearly TOLD in the TOS that their subscription would only start AFTER THEY CHOSE A SUBSCRIPTION TYPE AND PAYMENT METHOD. Neither of those occurred. How is that in any way shape or form the "mistake" of the customer? And yes TOS do in fact say they can be changed which is why YOU HAVE TO AGREE TO THE NEW TOS EVERYTIME THEY CHANGE!. Otherwise do you think a company can change the TOS to say "On July 21st, 2011 we will bill you $1,212,122? ROFL. To top it off the ACCOUNTS part of the website was not operational for about 8 months after they started taking pre-orders so even if they WANTED to go an cancel the subscription they never signed up for.. there was no way to do so...
Anyhow.. here is the discussion on the matter when it happened... with a very eloquent post by an actual FAN of the game who hated the way SV did this. Heck, there is even a "Mea Culpa" from someone who said SV would never do this but was proved wrong...
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/284437
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I can't be assed to upload a screenshot somewhere but I do have the email and here is the copy and paste of the text...
Mortal Online Customer Information
June 9th 2010
Auto-subscription
Today Mortal Online goes live!
You are receiving this email because of your Mortal Online pre-order purchase. The initial free month you received with your game purchase begins today, and regular billing will begin one month from today.
If you do not wish to auto-subscribe, please log into your account [Link] and cancel the option.
We also want to formally inform you about the new TOS, the Naming Policy, the EULA and the Reimbursement Policy.
All of which can be found on mortalonline.com.
Basically people had a month to read their email and then deselect a subscription if they wanted to do so.
This was all discussed in the thread I linked above.. but I think this post pretty much sums it up:
Aethaeryn
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7/17/10 10:55:44 AM#31
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Just because a comany sends you an e-mail saying they are going to charge you does not mean that you authorized it. They can not charge it without your authorization.
Or this:
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7/19/10 7:41:04 AM#34
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First of all the "mea culpa" I mentioned before. I did previously note that SV had no intention of billing people who did not wish to play the game. Obviously, that has been done regardless of what there intent may have been. All the people who do not wish to continue their subscription and have not logged in since the end of the free month are entitled to a refund.
By sending out an e-mail notification of the game launching and the need to cancel subscriptions before the end of the free month, Starvault may have met the minimum legal and ethical standard. (Damning with faint praise) Clearly a better system could have been put in place (i.e. approving charges when you first log in after the free month ended) All of that being said, they may not have been able to implement anything along those lines or any other system that didn't become an obstacle to those who did wish to subscribe. As such we may just now be seeing the end result of a decision made several months ago.
Or:
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7/17/10 10:48:56 AM#30
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Don't understand the confusion here. What SV did was outright fraud. There was no agreement by the customer to be billed for monthly charges. Should be no problem with any bank reversing the charges. Personally I would be contacting my attorney general because of the fraud.
This is not the first time a MMO has done this. Does not speak well for the company or the game either. Pretty much ended the previous MMO's who did such a dirty deed too
Or (edited to the core of the message, feel free to click and read the whole thing:
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7/16/10 4:34:01 PM#29
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Simply put.. company broke their own TOS and attempted to do the absolute minimum to provide plausible deniability. Even the fans of the game like Osmunda, Aethaeryn, zekkcc and others "owned up" in the thread that what SV did was pretty pathetic.
Instead of rehashing old and buried arguments just read the thread. Revisionist history not required.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
He actually said he was open to selling MO, maybe you should read and become informed before you post anything. What a stupid post.
Karasu Linkshell for Final fantasy 14 now accepting all members! Just head on over to karasuls.shivtr.com and apply now! Linkshell info is on the site.
Pretty much.
Karasu Linkshell for Final fantasy 14 now accepting all members! Just head on over to karasuls.shivtr.com and apply now! Linkshell info is on the site.