Bill, I touched on this in a post in the Devils Advocate section but it really is a FALSE dichotemy here. There is NOTHING about sandbox or player participation that neccesitates the lack of quality narrative or story.
I wonder if you ever played any of the old text based MUD/MUSH's? Games like Gemstone or Dragonrealms? I think those illustrate the point I am making very well. In many ways they were the ultimate sandbox's...as close as a computer game could come to simulating an old school Pen & Paper roleplaying experience. Yet they were also absolutely chock full of rich and detailed stories....thousands of them. It's important to note that these weren't just player made narrative...although there was certainly plenty of that. The GM staff was constantly designing and running story arcs, controling NPC's and monsters, etc. They didn't abdicate responsibilty for quality story to the players, they SHARED it.
Really it worked alot like traditional pen & paper roleplaying does. The GM creates the setting and is responsible for controling how the environment ACTS & REACTS . The players control thier own actions and the GM's allow the players actions to have some influence on how the environment reacts and how the stories flow.
THAT is really they key. In a themepark, the designer will not only create the story but they will exactly dictate how the player must act within the story (by not allowing them to progress the story without performing certain actions). In a sandbox, the designer creates the story as well, but doesn't dictate the players actions. The story will progress regardless of what the player does.... it just progresses in a different fashion depending upon how the player acts.
A sandbox game doesn't have to surrender story, it just has to surrender certain presentation elements...such as Voice Overs and Cutscenes and it has to include tools within the engine that allow the environment to react to the players actions to some degree. Those tools could be automated (like GW2 is trying to do with Dynamic Events) or simply commands that are manualy executed by GM's running live events.
Interesting to note that is EXACTLY what the Hero Engine was designed to do, as it was origional produced by Simutronics to make a graphical MMO version (Hero's Journey) of their text based MUD games (Gemstone & Dragonrealms). It's just that Bioware isn't taking advantage of those features of the engine.
For an RPG yes therefore for an mmoRPG yes. If you are thinking of no storys for mmoRPGs then you are thinking of an MMOG. Perhaps the logic mistake of thinking since all mmoRPGs are MMOG that makes all MMOGs MMORPGs.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Do themeparks need story? Hell, yes. And it better be a good story with proper presentation. Bioware are absolutly right when they say that the lack of story is the biggest flaw of the traditional themepark model.
But do sandboxes need story? Imo, not at all. Games like Minecraft and Terraria don't even have any lore or a real setting, and that's perfectly fine.
Now, the million dollar question is if and how it's possible to mix these two genres. Players are often saying they want to see a "hybrid", "sandpark" or whatever - but is that even possible? Can you really have the best of both worlds in one game without all those elements getting in each others way? Or would it just cause a community split? I'm not quite sure what to think about that...
edit: not even GW2 dared to tackle this problem - they just split the story-content into a traditional, quest-driven main storyline, and dynamic events with sidestories that aren't directly related. I thought that was a little disappointing.
For an RPG yes therefore for an mmoRPG yes. If you are thinking of no storys for mmoRPGs then you are thinking of an MMOG. Perhaps the logic mistake of thinking since all mmoRPGs are MMOG that makes all MMOGs MMORPGs.
It really depends on where the MMO takes the RPG from. Does it take RPG from DnD where story is important, but a personal thing between the DM and the players, in this case RPG tends to be more representitve of how a character developes, meaning that they have stats and levels and progression. Or does it take RPG from the early single player CRPG's where story is the driving factor, and not as "personalized", but imposed on the player. Now both have story, but how they are presented is drastically different.
nope, with todays carebear and instant items type player they dont care about story. Theyj ust want the item said boss drops and dont care why. People whine that they wouldnt have anything to do then. well thats where the multi play comes in. Someone always needs something from somewhere and they are to lazy to get the item themsleves. Theres a a player made fetch quest, walaah. Most of the people dont read the quest or stories anyway. they skip to the bottom, see what they get or need to get when done and run to the area and grind away till done. So no I dont need a story when i can imagine my own (i am the hero alfter all). Wait and see how fast this crap star wars game gets intant text or the ablitiy to skip all the dialog and run to to the arrow or lit area.
How many delicate flowers have you met in Counterstrike?
I got a case of beer and a chainsaw waiting for me at home after work.
I don’t think stories are very important to MMO’s, but what is really important to me is the background and lore, this is what sets the scene, drivers players to be enthralled and emotionally connected to the game they are playing, you can see this a lot in pen & paper RPG’s, you notice that in the system book they don’t really provide you with stories, this is left down to the GM to entice and control the session being played (yeah ok, a GM can buy story books, but...).
I do believe that MMO’s have lost their way in the autonomous questing systems and fixed story lines which for the most part are ok to drive enviroments, but I really think studios have missed the boat on truly dynamic environments that are not provided by automated systems, but provided by either players using tool systems built in to a game or a “GM Team” allowed to provide dynamic environment content on the fly which change the context on a daily basis but do not break the lore or gameplay systems provided.
MMO's dont need storys anymore for the main group of players these days.
Everywere you go you only see focus on leveling, on raiding, on pvp and gear, Players do no longer see the "story" no longer see adventure or socal interaction, all they see is the 1% dodge chance that purple chestplate has and how they can make someting stack so that it gives them a whole 2% increase in stacking the stack gear that they so carefully cauculated and colected to give 0.5% increase in Ethernal token grinding.
Its someting I fear for in SW:ToR and GW2 alike, those games are hte pinacle of Novel/story building gameplay but people will rush true it and say it does not have content, they skip the sightseeing, the interaction the fun a world might give all to level to the end expecting a raid/instanced based token grind for awsome super gear that makes them 0.5% more effective then the other other guy.
In clasic times it was not about the endplay but about the journey, that time seems to be gone and im not sure if games like ToR,GW2 or TSW can bring it back. Ihope they can.
ToR and GW2 will be Novels I think, we "read"them , enjoy them, and move on. TSW i have a little better hope for but alot of that game is still unclear so its hard to say how it will do.
In essence I think you need a mmo thats both freeform and quest/story based (kinda like archeage) but whit a strong forcus and a strong suport for community created contend. in every game player created content has bin highly populair and its a mather of finding the right tools to give the the comunity for it to change the way we play. after all player created content can be more diverse then anyting a developer could make. some players could create raids..others can create funy quest, others can make serious roleplay senario's
the mmo scene is so big that no game developer could ever hope to speak to the hearths of every player, but if you give them the tools to create it them self then all you have to do is ofc make the tools and a world to place it all in. if only i had 100mill to spent on making a game.. blehh
Nope it's not needed, but with the way the genre has gone, I welcome it. Most games are pretty solo centric these days, if I'm going to solo so much, I might as well have a decent story to keep me entertained.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
so all we need is challenging mechanics ,nifty tactics and skills(or not) working to interact...fighting over a pile of poo or a diamond of eternal power whatsoever without any story behind it. no knowledge needed, no history to be researched to give a meaning to what youre doing. 1 2 3 explanation , head dive into action ?
I've got many years of MMORPG experience. I've basically played them since they existed although i now lay dormant (not playing any MMO atm). I found gaining new strengh, powers by mindless grinding in my first fantasy MMORPG quite thrilling. After achieving the max level on several different classes the process was mind numbing. I play for the community and PVP and DAOC was the best at BOTH. (first major fantasy MMO) Did i care about story then or now. Not really. My goal was to reach max level and be on a level playing field in PVP siege and defend style combat. Again thats what i like in a MMORPG. I do not like offline single player MMO's. I prefer human interaction elements in player based games.
When WoW was released i found it novel and there was actually some community but most of that came from my previous MMO. When we went apart the game was just a boring same o same o with crappy PVP. Warhammer was totally non-social. Rift to name another just montonous not fostering community. I probably wont get involved in any MMO in the near future unless they bring back the old school feel. I don't want instant gratification, i could care less about story as i play to play against other players in a living competitive world.
Bethseda needs to make an MMO and show this endustry what a Sandbox MMO is. Just because the game is Sandbox, does not mean it can't have stories in it either. Oblivion is by far the best sandbox MMO on the market and has tons of stories!!
Is bacon necessary for a cheeseburger? No but it makes a great combo.
I think that the more theme park and structured you get with gameplay in an mmo the more a good storyline is necessary. Not that story isn't good for sandbox open world games but in those types it seems more people want to find their own adventure not have it pointed out to them and why they should care about it.
Originally posted by Leoghan Originally posted by waynejr2 For an RPG yes therefore for an mmoRPG yes. If you are thinking of no storys for mmoRPGs then you are thinking of an MMOG. Perhaps the logic mistake of thinking since all mmoRPGs are MMOG that makes all MMOGs MMORPGs.
It really depends on where the MMO takes the RPG from. Does it take RPG from DnD where story is important, but a personal thing between the DM and the players, in this case RPG tends to be more representitve of how a character developes, meaning that they have stats and levels and progression. Or does it take RPG from the early single player CRPG's where story is the driving factor, and not as "personalized", but imposed on the player. Now both have story, but how they are presented is drastically different. Personal stories is kind of missing the point. One word: story.
I am an ancient dnder. I still have my 2nd edtion chainmail which is the edition where the fantasy section was added AND it was pre-TSR. So I have a large ancient bias from the good old early days.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
When playing AIKA, I realized that the 'official' background story of the game was mostly ignored by players. But they remembered the player-made history, of who was the best Lord Marshal of his nation, which actions he/she did, etc. and we remembered the player-driven history of different governments of our nation, betrayals, dramas, raids to enemy nations, defenses, etc.
I think the most compelling stories a MMO game can have are those created by players themselves. Everyone wants to become a legend. So my answer is, a given background is not needed, given a good set of gameplay / social tools inside a game, the players will craft their own history.
For an RPG yes therefore for an mmoRPG yes. If you are thinking of no storys for mmoRPGs then you are thinking of an MMOG. Perhaps the logic mistake of thinking since all mmoRPGs are MMOG that makes all MMOGs MMORPGs.
It really depends on where the MMO takes the RPG from. Does it take RPG from DnD where story is important, but a personal thing between the DM and the players, in this case RPG tends to be more representitve of how a character developes, meaning that they have stats and levels and progression. Or does it take RPG from the early single player CRPG's where story is the driving factor, and not as "personalized", but imposed on the player. Now both have story, but how they are presented is drastically different.
Personal stories is kind of missing the point. One word: story.
I am an ancient dnder. I still have my 2nd edtion chainmail which is the edition where the fantasy section was added AND it was pre-TSR. So I have a large ancient bias from the good old early days.
What I mean by personal stories is that pen and paper has never been about imposing "one" story on the DM and players, in most cases the group makes the story up on their own with the game providing the background.
Single player RPG's do not and the MMO's that come from this tradition do not allow for the same kind of freedom. There is "one" story, there might be many "one" stories, i.e. one for each class like SWTOR, but those stories have only the mininal amount of freedom, usually allowing the playing to choose, good, bad or neutral.
The problem is the business, not the art. MMOs are becoming a subset of IP-based entertainment empires. That pushing them to be story-driven in order to ensure the focus is only copyrighted IP rather than the engine. This will increasingly cause MMOs to be framed as an interactive movie.
What the *art* of MMOs needs are the tools for players to write their own history, but then it's clear who owns that history. Imagine if you took a game like Eve and explicitly allowed people to write their own novelizations of the wars based on a data dump of killmails and swovereignty changes - making the "historical data" of the game released under creative commons. It would create an enterly new genre of IP that is neither fiction nor non-fiction, a sort of "bounded fantasy" where you are fleshing out a story of your own around a skeleton of "shared facts".
Do themeparks need story? Hell, yes. And it better be a good story with proper presentation. Bioware are absolutly right when they say that the lack of story is the biggest flaw of the traditional themepark model.
But do sandboxes need story? Imo, not at all. Games like Minecraft and Terraria don't even have any lore or a real setting, and that's perfectly fine.
Good points.
Although even sandbox MMORPG's need some 'story' or maybe better said 'context' to the world and activities that it represents in contrast to a Minecraft. There are more ways for devs to tell the story of the world they created and provide to players, each way with its own merits and limitations.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
The problem is the business, not the art. MMOs are becoming a subset of IP-based entertainment empires. That pushing them to be story-driven in order to ensure the focus is only copyrighted IP rather than the engine. This will increasingly cause MMOs to be framed as an interactive movie.
What the *art* of MMOs needs are the tools for players to write their own history, but then it's clear who owns that history. Imagine if you took a game like Eve and explicitly allowed people to write their own novelizations of the wars based on a data dump of killmails and swovereignty changes - making the "historical data" of the game released under creative commons. It would create an enterly new genre of IP that is neither fiction nor non-fiction, a sort of "bounded fantasy" where you are fleshing out a story of your own around a skeleton of "shared facts".
It depends what you understand as "story"? If story means, one NPC glued to the ground gives you a wall of text window why to kill 5 rats in Granny Does cellar, then no. I don't need that.
The story I want is, immersive, made in realistic dialogue and most important: it has a choice the player has to make which alters the result. This choice is the more important part IMO.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
The downfall of pencil and paper gaming was when TSR realized they could make more money off the IP than off the game itself, so their own customers began to be treated as competitors.
IMO there has been too much emphasis on story in recent games. It is absolutely terrible to stop the flow of a game in order to force a player to watch (or read) something related to a storyline. This is especially true when you can’t immediately cancel out of the scene. It seems that this trend is getting worse for which I blame reviewers of games since games are often marked up if they have a strong connection to a storyline.
Imagine if movies would stop periodically and you would be forced to play a game before you could continue watching the movie. Would that make the movie better? Of course not and the same logic applies to forcing me to watch a pre-recorded scene while playing a game.
Do themeparks need story? Hell, yes. And it better be a good story with proper presentation. Bioware are absolutly right when they say that the lack of story is the biggest flaw of the traditional themepark model.
But do sandboxes need story? Imo, not at all. Games like Minecraft and Terraria don't even have any lore or a real setting, and that's perfectly fine.
Good points.
Although even sandbox MMORPG's need some 'story' or maybe better said 'context' to the world and activities that it represents in contrast to a Minecraft. There are more ways for devs to tell the story of the world they created and provide to players, each way with its own merits and limitations.
Sandbox is being taken too literally. Sandbox MMORPG also need a world, lore etc to allow for the players to create their own stories.
Comments
Bill, I touched on this in a post in the Devils Advocate section but it really is a FALSE dichotemy here. There is NOTHING about sandbox or player participation that neccesitates the lack of quality narrative or story.
I wonder if you ever played any of the old text based MUD/MUSH's? Games like Gemstone or Dragonrealms? I think those illustrate the point I am making very well. In many ways they were the ultimate sandbox's...as close as a computer game could come to simulating an old school Pen & Paper roleplaying experience. Yet they were also absolutely chock full of rich and detailed stories....thousands of them. It's important to note that these weren't just player made narrative...although there was certainly plenty of that. The GM staff was constantly designing and running story arcs, controling NPC's and monsters, etc. They didn't abdicate responsibilty for quality story to the players, they SHARED it.
Really it worked alot like traditional pen & paper roleplaying does. The GM creates the setting and is responsible for controling how the environment ACTS & REACTS . The players control thier own actions and the GM's allow the players actions to have some influence on how the environment reacts and how the stories flow.
THAT is really they key. In a themepark, the designer will not only create the story but they will exactly dictate how the player must act within the story (by not allowing them to progress the story without performing certain actions). In a sandbox, the designer creates the story as well, but doesn't dictate the players actions. The story will progress regardless of what the player does.... it just progresses in a different fashion depending upon how the player acts.
A sandbox game doesn't have to surrender story, it just has to surrender certain presentation elements...such as Voice Overs and Cutscenes and it has to include tools within the engine that allow the environment to react to the players actions to some degree. Those tools could be automated (like GW2 is trying to do with Dynamic Events) or simply commands that are manualy executed by GM's running live events.
Interesting to note that is EXACTLY what the Hero Engine was designed to do, as it was origional produced by Simutronics to make a graphical MMO version (Hero's Journey) of their text based MUD games (Gemstone & Dragonrealms). It's just that Bioware isn't taking advantage of those features of the engine.
For an RPG yes therefore for an mmoRPG yes. If you are thinking of no storys for mmoRPGs then you are thinking of an MMOG. Perhaps the logic mistake of thinking since all mmoRPGs are MMOG that makes all MMOGs MMORPGs.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
I think it depends entirely on the genre.
Do themeparks need story? Hell, yes. And it better be a good story with proper presentation. Bioware are absolutly right when they say that the lack of story is the biggest flaw of the traditional themepark model.
But do sandboxes need story? Imo, not at all. Games like Minecraft and Terraria don't even have any lore or a real setting, and that's perfectly fine.
Now, the million dollar question is if and how it's possible to mix these two genres. Players are often saying they want to see a "hybrid", "sandpark" or whatever - but is that even possible? Can you really have the best of both worlds in one game without all those elements getting in each others way? Or would it just cause a community split? I'm not quite sure what to think about that...
edit: not even GW2 dared to tackle this problem - they just split the story-content into a traditional, quest-driven main storyline, and dynamic events with sidestories that aren't directly related. I thought that was a little disappointing.
Hype train -> Reality
It really depends on where the MMO takes the RPG from. Does it take RPG from DnD where story is important, but a personal thing between the DM and the players, in this case RPG tends to be more representitve of how a character developes, meaning that they have stats and levels and progression. Or does it take RPG from the early single player CRPG's where story is the driving factor, and not as "personalized", but imposed on the player. Now both have story, but how they are presented is drastically different.
nope, with todays carebear and instant items type player they dont care about story. Theyj ust want the item said boss drops and dont care why. People whine that they wouldnt have anything to do then. well thats where the multi play comes in. Someone always needs something from somewhere and they are to lazy to get the item themsleves. Theres a a player made fetch quest, walaah. Most of the people dont read the quest or stories anyway. they skip to the bottom, see what they get or need to get when done and run to the area and grind away till done. So no I dont need a story when i can imagine my own (i am the hero alfter all). Wait and see how fast this crap star wars game gets intant text or the ablitiy to skip all the dialog and run to to the arrow or lit area.
How many delicate flowers have you met in Counterstrike?
I got a case of beer and a chainsaw waiting for me at home after work.
I don’t think stories are very important to MMO’s, but what is really important to me is the background and lore, this is what sets the scene, drivers players to be enthralled and emotionally connected to the game they are playing, you can see this a lot in pen & paper RPG’s, you notice that in the system book they don’t really provide you with stories, this is left down to the GM to entice and control the session being played (yeah ok, a GM can buy story books, but...).
I do believe that MMO’s have lost their way in the autonomous questing systems and fixed story lines which for the most part are ok to drive enviroments, but I really think studios have missed the boat on truly dynamic environments that are not provided by automated systems, but provided by either players using tool systems built in to a game or a “GM Team” allowed to provide dynamic environment content on the fly which change the context on a daily basis but do not break the lore or gameplay systems provided.
MMO's dont need storys anymore for the main group of players these days.
Everywere you go you only see focus on leveling, on raiding, on pvp and gear, Players do no longer see the "story" no longer see adventure or socal interaction, all they see is the 1% dodge chance that purple chestplate has and how they can make someting stack so that it gives them a whole 2% increase in stacking the stack gear that they so carefully cauculated and colected to give 0.5% increase in Ethernal token grinding.
Its someting I fear for in SW:ToR and GW2 alike, those games are hte pinacle of Novel/story building gameplay but people will rush true it and say it does not have content, they skip the sightseeing, the interaction the fun a world might give all to level to the end expecting a raid/instanced based token grind for awsome super gear that makes them 0.5% more effective then the other other guy.
In clasic times it was not about the endplay but about the journey, that time seems to be gone and im not sure if games like ToR,GW2 or TSW can bring it back. Ihope they can.
ToR and GW2 will be Novels I think, we "read"them , enjoy them, and move on. TSW i have a little better hope for but alot of that game is still unclear so its hard to say how it will do.
In essence I think you need a mmo thats both freeform and quest/story based (kinda like archeage) but whit a strong forcus and a strong suport for community created contend. in every game player created content has bin highly populair and its a mather of finding the right tools to give the the comunity for it to change the way we play. after all player created content can be more diverse then anyting a developer could make. some players could create raids..others can create funy quest, others can make serious roleplay senario's
the mmo scene is so big that no game developer could ever hope to speak to the hearths of every player, but if you give them the tools to create it them self then all you have to do is ofc make the tools and a world to place it all in. if only i had 100mill to spent on making a game.. blehh
Nope it's not needed, but with the way the genre has gone, I welcome it. Most games are pretty solo centric these days, if I'm going to solo so much, I might as well have a decent story to keep me entertained.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
so all we need is challenging mechanics ,nifty tactics and skills(or not) working to interact...fighting over a pile of poo or a diamond of eternal power whatsoever without any story behind it. no knowledge needed, no history to be researched to give a meaning to what youre doing. 1 2 3 explanation , head dive into action ?
isnt that another sort of dumbing down?
I've got many years of MMORPG experience. I've basically played them since they existed although i now lay dormant (not playing any MMO atm). I found gaining new strengh, powers by mindless grinding in my first fantasy MMORPG quite thrilling. After achieving the max level on several different classes the process was mind numbing. I play for the community and PVP and DAOC was the best at BOTH. (first major fantasy MMO) Did i care about story then or now. Not really. My goal was to reach max level and be on a level playing field in PVP siege and defend style combat. Again thats what i like in a MMORPG. I do not like offline single player MMO's. I prefer human interaction elements in player based games.
When WoW was released i found it novel and there was actually some community but most of that came from my previous MMO. When we went apart the game was just a boring same o same o with crappy PVP. Warhammer was totally non-social. Rift to name another just montonous not fostering community. I probably wont get involved in any MMO in the near future unless they bring back the old school feel. I don't want instant gratification, i could care less about story as i play to play against other players in a living competitive world.
Bethseda needs to make an MMO and show this endustry what a Sandbox MMO is. Just because the game is Sandbox, does not mean it can't have stories in it either. Oblivion is by far the best sandbox MMO on the market and has tons of stories!!
Is bacon necessary for a cheeseburger? No but it makes a great combo.
I think that the more theme park and structured you get with gameplay in an mmo the more a good storyline is necessary. Not that story isn't good for sandbox open world games but in those types it seems more people want to find their own adventure not have it pointed out to them and why they should care about it.
Personal stories is kind of missing the point. One word: story.
I am an ancient dnder. I still have my 2nd edtion chainmail which is the edition where the fantasy section was added AND it was pre-TSR. So I have a large ancient bias from the good old early days.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
**correction**
Oblivion is by far the best sandbox RPG* on the market and has tons of stories!!
When playing AIKA, I realized that the 'official' background story of the game was mostly ignored by players. But they remembered the player-made history, of who was the best Lord Marshal of his nation, which actions he/she did, etc. and we remembered the player-driven history of different governments of our nation, betrayals, dramas, raids to enemy nations, defenses, etc.
I think the most compelling stories a MMO game can have are those created by players themselves. Everyone wants to become a legend. So my answer is, a given background is not needed, given a good set of gameplay / social tools inside a game, the players will craft their own history.
What I mean by personal stories is that pen and paper has never been about imposing "one" story on the DM and players, in most cases the group makes the story up on their own with the game providing the background.
Single player RPG's do not and the MMO's that come from this tradition do not allow for the same kind of freedom. There is "one" story, there might be many "one" stories, i.e. one for each class like SWTOR, but those stories have only the mininal amount of freedom, usually allowing the playing to choose, good, bad or neutral.
The problem is the business, not the art. MMOs are becoming a subset of IP-based entertainment empires. That pushing them to be story-driven in order to ensure the focus is only copyrighted IP rather than the engine. This will increasingly cause MMOs to be framed as an interactive movie.
What the *art* of MMOs needs are the tools for players to write their own history, but then it's clear who owns that history. Imagine if you took a game like Eve and explicitly allowed people to write their own novelizations of the wars based on a data dump of killmails and swovereignty changes - making the "historical data" of the game released under creative commons. It would create an enterly new genre of IP that is neither fiction nor non-fiction, a sort of "bounded fantasy" where you are fleshing out a story of your own around a skeleton of "shared facts".
Good points.
Although even sandbox MMORPG's need some 'story' or maybe better said 'context' to the world and activities that it represents in contrast to a Minecraft. There are more ways for devs to tell the story of the world they created and provide to players, each way with its own merits and limitations.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I can't agree more with you.
It depends what you understand as "story"? If story means, one NPC glued to the ground gives you a wall of text window why to kill 5 rats in Granny Does cellar, then no. I don't need that.
The story I want is, immersive, made in realistic dialogue and most important: it has a choice the player has to make which alters the result. This choice is the more important part IMO.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
added observation:
The downfall of pencil and paper gaming was when TSR realized they could make more money off the IP than off the game itself, so their own customers began to be treated as competitors.
Simple answer: No. Give the tools needed for it and the players will create their own stories.
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stories are ok. if we just could get rid of quests.
look at EQ1. at the beginning there where tons of stories but it was hard to find a quest.
played: Everquest I (6 years), EVE (3 years)
months: EQII, Vanguard, Siedler Online, SWTOR, Guild Wars 2
weeks: WoW, Shaiya, Darkfall, Florensia, Entropia, Aion, Lotro, Fallen Earth, Uncharted Waters
days: DDO, RoM, FFXIV, STO, Atlantica, PotBS, Maestia, WAR, AoC, Gods&Heroes, Cultures, RIFT, Forsaken World, Allodds
IMO there has been too much emphasis on story in recent games. It is absolutely terrible to stop the flow of a game in order to force a player to watch (or read) something related to a storyline. This is especially true when you can’t immediately cancel out of the scene. It seems that this trend is getting worse for which I blame reviewers of games since games are often marked up if they have a strong connection to a storyline.
Imagine if movies would stop periodically and you would be forced to play a game before you could continue watching the movie. Would that make the movie better? Of course not and the same logic applies to forcing me to watch a pre-recorded scene while playing a game.
Sandbox is being taken too literally. Sandbox MMORPG also need a world, lore etc to allow for the players to create their own stories.
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