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Are We Being Honest About EVE?
blazin-ace
Member Posts: 302
I asked myself if I was being fair. I know I will not win a popularity contest after this.
I listened to Ripper’s first impressions of Black Prophecy and some of his comments got me to thinking.
In spite of how this will sound I do not mean it as a flame or troll. In truth it’s more a bit of introspection shared with many others, often stated quietly by everyone. I hear it all the time.
“Eve is a great game. No, I don’t play it now. I tried it for a month and couldn’t get into it. But it’s cool man, ya gotta respect what they tried to do…”
EVE online is a game where bad design decisions have become accepted features over time to keep the game alive. Multiboxing helps pad the account total obscenely and is required for many play options, they are looking to incorporate mining bots, PLEX, RMT in 0.0, character sales, a tiny little player map with most people hiding in Hi Sec because they can’t compete with the power blocks, NEX that WILL include game affecting items in time per the dev teams own recent words…
It goes on. I could go on… Yet we all still say, me too sometimes, that we like the game.
I don’t think we all “really” like it. I think we like what it could offer and keep cutting the game slack in hopes that it will one day because nothing else on the market has tried.
All the features that actually appeal to people, be it missioning, exploration, industry, wormholes, are dull and designed to do nothing but pad a wallet to go do one thing = PVP in 0.0. You quickly become disillusioned. It isn’t a game about making your own destiny amongst the stars. You can’t in truth. They are looking at ways of focusing everything on 0.0 be it taking ABC ores from wormholes or making 0.0 more self-sufficient.
Scamming, griefing, and all the various community killing behaviors tolerated nowhere else as openly are embraced by the community because there’s nothing else fun to do and keep spenders playing even at the newbs expense since they are not liable to keep paying to play any way…
Could it be that EVE is not being supported by the dev team, that they are using the sub money for other games in development is because they know it doesn’t have a strong future left and the company’s real hope of surviving is in WOD and Dust where people actually have attachment to characters? That EVE is being used as a limited test bed for part of the Incarna engine to see if Barbie in space might work rather than relying on people multiboxing across several accounts to grow the player population numbers?
If I wrote a play through review of this game, I am afraid I would be the first guy to step up and tell you in an official capacity that the game sucks offering nothing but hollow promises over a cheap clan wars RTS like mini game where you are but a soldier unit for the commanders and confined to a small piece of the map that looks bigger because its spread out in a circle. The PVP is mostly blob oriented, kind of boring, and not as intelligent as many would have you believe...
It’s an exercise in mental masturbation. Go look at a game poster and use your imagination for a few minutes as you will have more fun than actually subscribing and get more of what you were really looking for rather than seeing the reality of play.
It manages to be addictive and liked for a time based on potential in spite of its actual self.
I know I must read as harsh… I feel bad about it too. As I'm not trying to flame the game but seem to be doing a good job of hammering it. lol...
Are we all being honest about EVE? Or is it just dying hype born of unmet potential.... What do you think of the game right now, in truth?
Comments
EVE is successful because people like to play it. BP will fail because after about three months it will be the same thing over and over, and that’s just boring. In the time it takes to become bored with BP, you are just starting to figure out how to play EVE.
All this stuff like multiboxing, item-shop, etc is done in all MMOs and nothing special to EvE, especially botting. The only thing that's really unique in EvE is the PLEX-thingy, but that's not a game-breaking feature actually. It exists aslong as I can remember in my six years playing the game, and CCP only created a system to trade GTCs ingame instead of the forums etc.
To judge EvE by all these things has no point really.
Let's look more closer. We could say that mission-running is boring as hell, but let's be honest here, running dungeons for the 50th time is boring in any game. Where other MMOs require you to level up your character by questing, you can choose to not run a single mission in EvE Online and do other stuff, which becomes just as repetitive, like mining, plexing, crafting etc. Hell, even PvP becomes repetitive at some point.
Don't get fooled, this repetitive stuff is found in every MMO and it's exactly this "grinding/farming" that lets you progress (obtaining money, ressources, items, etc.) in all of the MMOs. We could say it's a core-feature of every MMO to make it an MMO.
The fun in EvE starts when you leave the prescripted path and start building your own corp/alliance/empire. It's exactly this feature of building something bigger, having an impact on others that seperates EvE from the majority of MMOs outthere. Territorial warfare is not just a battleground, the ressources found in 0.0 influence everyone within EvE. This is where the community is formed and where the history of the game is written. This is where you feel, that you're a part of something bigger.
EvE is a great game. There's features people like and others that people dislike, but overall EvE is currently the best living and breathing world found in the MMO-industry.
Look at Survivor Guys play through. Most of his adventures have happened in his head while he sat in front of the PC watching a movie waiting on his cargo hold to fill up mining... I see the same trend in reviews on most every website that covers MMOs in relation to EVE. Most want to say it’s somehow cool rather than actually continuing to play it personally.
Trust me. I’m not hyping BP at all. I’ve never played it, only listened to review comments that got me thinking about EVE. LOL, I’m not sure how to download it yet.
I’m not trying to hate on or bash EVE for having grinding play features. All MMORPG’s do but some make general play more appealing than others.
I’d contend it’s just as the devs say. When you look at CCP’s EVE design documents you never see the words fun for content, you see real instead. That’s part of what lead to the “EVE is Real” marketing campaign. But when you read the threads in the official forums regarding the events hyped by the videos you get a whole different picture. You hear about lag, glitches, exploits, and everything else left unsaid that almost killed it. They say it was kinda fun to be there but not really to play through.
Are you familiar with the Monocle campaign and how a certain group got together to post in the forums with a “better than you peasants” attitude many contend had ties to staff true or false? EVE has consistently tried to present itself as a game for an elitist as if playing it makes you somehow better than other MMORPG gamers. They have marketed as a boutique brand or an attempt at being the Apple / Mac of PC gaming.
I’d contend that to a degree, that elite attitude is one means of player retention they consider strong and marketable rather than actual enjoyment of the game because design decisions have made the sand box into a bucket. The game may quietly suck but we can make you feel good about yourself for paying...
For some perspective, I played EVE for a very long time several years back, a short time a year and a half ago, and now… I feel like I am looking at an old school dinosaur that’s potential is in the past and about to ditch it again. It hasn’t kept itself fresh with opportunity in play. The well is dried up.
It still has "potential" but that is unrealized in the current play model and not enough to make it into a good game without action. And perhaps, reviewers are too kind to this game...
I don’t comment lightly or just to incite.
I guess I’m just not seeing it. Spending large amounts of your time and money on internet space ships may make you a hardcore EVE player, but it doesn’t make you cool, special, or elite. It might make you a nerd or a geek however, and I don’t think anyone really disputes this.
The game allows a great deal of freedom to build and develop ideas for fun in a virtual game world. Some people get hooked.
Very few games allow players to plan and execute strategies that can take months or years to play out.
People do this all the time and over and over in this game, and that has nothing to do with the things you mention.
As one of the above posters says, the time you get into another mmo and then get bored, could be the opportunity cost to getting to grips with EvE and having potentially a lasting game experience; this cycle has repeated a number of times for me not to ignore it again: That's what's drawing me to this game & I hope to report back on my experiences in a number of months time.
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
Quite often the issue of buying/selling virtual goods, currency and even characters comes up when MMOs are discussed. CCP often takes a lot of fire because they allow, incorporate and encourage it.
However, while I do not have any actual numbers, I think it's more then safe to say that every single MMO has to deal with these issues. Whatever they throw at the "real world traders", they keep finding a new hole to crawl through and continue. In the process, many people are scammed, banned or walk away happily. Whatever the developers try, it will still happen. A lot.
What CCP did is basically offer a safe channel for these things. Some still choose to take the 'dangerous' road for a little discount, but this is actively discouraged and often ends up in a bad way for the player. At any rate, they let their players do what most of them would do anyway, but without the risk of being scammed or banned for it. On the plus side, the developers make more money instead of random players that sell their items/currency/characters, so the developers can in turn use that money to further evolve the game.
As for some other issues you mentioned, they mostly seem to come down to personal preference. You say most of the PVP is blob-oriented and kind of boring, why not do it differently? That's the beauty of EVE - you can do whatever you want, whenever you want. I'm not trying to sound like a catchphrase CCP might use in a trailer, it's true. If the few select roads that have been laid out aren't your cup of tea, lay down your own roads.
Multiboxing - this happens in every game, perhaps not to this extent, but it does. You say it pads the playerbase, but let's be honest, most MMOs bar the top-tier ones have to cope with a low playerbase.
As for scamming, killing, griefing... Well, that's simply a part of the sandbox. Love it or hate it, but what EVE Online is, is not a traditional MMO. It's really a space, or sci-fi, simulator. With this comes getting scammed or griefed, but on the other hand, that's exactly what someone else loves to do for fun. They don't do it 'because there's nothing else to do', they do it because they like to. That said, EVE Online is a bit like the real world. Sure, criminals sometimes do what they do because they feel they had no other way to survive, but more often then not they just do it for kicks, or because they're good at it.
Finally, PVP. You said: "... offering nothing but hollow promises over a cheap clan wars RTS like mini game where you are but a soldier unit for the commanders ..."
Again, I'd like to refer back to that EVE Online is a simulator. Take a step back and consider what the real world is all about. Money. What is this money used for? Luxury, war and territorial expansion. This is exactly what it's used for in EVE as well. Also, being "but a soldier unit for the commanders" is again part of it all. Much like you would in the realy world, you will rise up over time (if you wish to do so) and eventually end up as one of the commanders.
On a sidenote - PVP happens on a much, much smaller scale as well. A lot. Just don't expect to take any solar systems with a small team. Again - EVE is a simulator. You can't conquer a nation with a dedicated team of 10 people.
Just to be clear - I'm not saying EVE is perfect (I know it may sound like that reading my post), I'm just saying that a lot of the points you brought up seem to be a very personal preference and your opinion, rather then facts.
Of course they are using their money for other games in development.
It has nothing to do with their thoughts on eve's future. A company's income goes to various things such as upkeep of the company and of course new products in their pipeline.
Diversification can help a company in lean times.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Since there are many completely false statements in the OP's post, but also some truth in it, I will go through and note the completely FALSE parts. The false parts will be in red, followed by my own commentary.
I’m not looking to hurt you Jimmac. Its fine to disagree and counter points are great in that I am asking myself where i turned bitter vet but don’t accuse me of falsehood, as I could accuse you of the same thing from my experience.
Multi-boxing exists to a degree in many games. I knew a couple of people with 6 accounts when I played EQ2. But EVE is special in this regard. In my day you were expected to keep one account for your cyno frig and another for your cap pilot. That seems to still be true.
The same is true in exploration careers now. You keep one account for a scout frigate and another for a combat ship to clear the sites you discover or scout a path into low / null sec for you.
That’s become standard operating procedure.
The designers intended the current mechanics to be a way of making people play together but it proved self-defeating. Players just went and found a way to do it by their self anyway and cut others out of what was supposed to be an excuse for group play.
Am I right to call it bad design becoming accepted means of play.
I used to think having six accounts was a lot and to be frank silly to play one game with. In EVE I actually know more than one person with twelve or more accounts… That’s f’n insane. Multi-Boxing just doesn’t feel adequate as a term. There are people with far more than twelve accounts.
That's a whole lot of words to say that you dont like playing EVE.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
Maybe he doesn't but I think he makes a fair point.
By default long term people on this site 'like' EVE, it's really a given. Most people have a degree of respect for the game and the way the developers handle the community, the player council is a great idea and many of us would like that in other games.
But essentially I think many people would say they don't actually like how it plays. I certianly don't, it's not for me, but the important point is I respect what is it and that it offers something different to the general themepark market and it's successful. Who knows what might be inspired from CCP being different? It might end up benefiting the mainstream/fans of other settings in the long term.
I'm sure Eve fans couldn't care less about that or whether it helps other developers but in my book, despite the fact I'm not a fan of it's gameplay, it deserves my respect as someone whose a fan of the MMO genre.
Er, falsehood just means that what you said was false. Doesn't mean you are a lying scoundrel or anything...
As I explained, many things you said were straight true. Many things also weren't true at all. The things that weren't true were mostly the absolute statements you made, that doing it the way you did it is the ONLY way, which really in no way is true. You repeated this form of complaint in the quoted post as well. The parts I highlighted in red show it...
You were expected to have accounts for certain things, and how it was standard operating procedure. That was only the case because of the path you choose in eve. I've done a ton of PVP and pursued all kinds of other offbeat careers and never, ever was I expected to have two accounts, or to keep a second account for a scout alt, or anything about standard operating procedure like that. We made our own rules.
All of what you said is true only IF you choose it to be. Hence, it's a falsehood as far as I'm concerned if you are to say that it necessary for anyone other than the people who choose it. Since choosing to follow a path different than the one you choose is so easy and feasible, it is ridiculous to claim that these expectations and standard operating proceedures you speak are imposed on anyone other than those who allow it to be imposed on them.
You don't and didn't have to follow that path. You choose to. Now you are complaining about the characteristics of that path.
The point? Go do something else. There are hundreds of other things you can do that don't have any kind of impositions like this.
On the other hand one of the best PvPers I know only has a single account. I myself have 2, and I use my main 90% of the time.
You're confusing the possible with the necesssry.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
It's clear to see that the OP doesn't know how to enjoy Eve, or even play Eve for that matter so It's no surprise he would feel like he does. Personally, I love Eve. Playing it, living it through the meta and contimplating what I'll do next. What makes Eve so cool is the fact that the DEVS have stepped out of the way and the game world unfolds pretty much like real life. You have mega business that use and abuse. You have upstarts. You have deception and piracy, and you have ALOT of floating wrecks when people don't agree. Most real life wars are *blob* tactics just like in Eve because it works. Then I've been in fights where superior tactics and ship setup have owned the day. Anyhow I've lost my train of thought, want to get back into Eve and play with my pirate buddies.. cya
I read your post and whilst some of it may be truth (yes, EVE doesn't have twitch gameplay), most of it is opinionated.
I started playing just over a month ago and am fucking loving it so far, I joined a small-ish CORP (who want to stay that way) and the people in there are great. Especially the leader, I've learnt so much from that guy. We recantly joined an alliance who are planning their move to claiming some 0.0 space.
You (and other people have said it too, actually) that they prefer watching trailers, or reading about EVE more than playing it. There is nothing more fun than (ok, slight exageration. Nothing more fun in a video game I should say) roaming space in a fleet with about 20 other pilots looking for people to blow up.
Missions can be boring at times, that's true. But you don't have to do too many of them to get enough ISK for a couple of decant ships, honestly.
Haven't had this much fun with an MMO since early Darkfall days during the 1000 man wars in "World War 1".
EVE is definitely, a very good game.
Its only downfall is the fact their's no twitch combat, which tbh, has no place in the game anyway.
_________
Currently playing: Black Desert Korea (Waiting for EU)
Always hating on instances in MMOs! Open worlds, open PvP, territory control and housing please. More persistence, more fun.
One man’s facts are always another’s fiction. Tell a blind mind the sky is blue… For the original post, of course I am opinionated as a good assertion is the only way to draw out the dogs to chew into the meat of the matter when you’re questioning.
Amidst all the cries of NOOOO, so far you are the only fellow to mention what you are doing in EVE that’s fun and somehow different from this “cookie cutter path.”
And it doesn’t appear to be the game itself but rather the people you are hanging with. :P lol.
Nothing you've said refutes the simple assertion that you are doing it wrong, and that you doing it wrong is what is responsibile for your poor game experience.
So what do you think people should be doing?
Don't be a 0.0 drone. Don't take orders from people. Don't have multiple accounts. Don't join a corp that will put you in a position to do any of those things. It is very possible to avoid those things.
Do that, and you will avoid almost every problem you mentioned. I will not recite the long list of activities you can do that fit this bill.
That said, Eve does have plenty of problems, and much of what you said in the OP is true. Most comments I didn't directly criticize, I probably agree with.
The only thing I didn't comment on was that you seem to think that many people have just a ridiculous number of alt accounts. I haven't found that to be the case. I think a large majority of people have either 2 or 1 accounts.
Heh , the real question should be : Were those who didn't like EVE being honest?
You know when I read stuff like : " I don't have the feeling of playing a character as a starship " bull , I got a few questions to ask those people ;
1- What's so different from being let's say a tank and a starship sitting and tanking a whole room of rats?
2- What's so different from being a sniper in EVE and a nuker in a RPG?
3- What's so different from being a sprite and a starship?
Honestly , I see no difference , one game your a ship the others your sprite , all made out of fiction and pixels. It's a bunch of crap and sorry excuses to dismiss EVE.
Saying that the game is too complicated can be accepted
Saying that the game has a harsh PvP environement is accepted
But please , don't tell me you don't feel a connection between you and your starship as you would with a sprite.
EVE-Online has it's own charm that won't appeal to everyone , but I guess that's the real key to success. Trying to please everyone with a single game is asking for trouble and I like the idea CCP is working on , with Dust 514 , incorporating FPS with the EVE universe is a big gamble but can work wonders if thought correctly.
Since the release of EVE , it went a pretty long way from then to now. It might not have WoW's numbers , but the most important part is that the game is still growing , multibox or not. Every game multibox / box, Aion / Lineage 2 is so extreme that people multibox / bot their own parties , so I guess EVE ain't that bad , it's not like a person with 20 accounts can own Sov by him/herself.
LOL. Dude... You claimed there were no mining bots or RMT in 0.0....
I thought you meant CCP was looking to implement legal mining bots in 0.0 and legal RMT. The sentence was vague at best.
That changes nothing about everything I said.
For me, it's always been like this.
How can you enjoy yourself in a sandbox MMO without a good group of people to blow fuckers up with? Remember, in EVE (or Darkfall, any sandbox game) the content is NOT handed to you. You're not told "get to this level, then do these instances a bunch of times till you have the gear to do these ones". You're given the tools and a tutorial at the start, after that, you're on your own to take advantage of whatever you can.
In games like EVE, if you don't become involved with the community, then no. You're definitely not going to enjoy yourself, unless you know what you're doing and are trying to achieve something very specific, but you'd have to be experianced in the game already to play like this.
And also, what you mentioned about bots.
The only game where bots have bothered me, is WoW (and let me also mention it's also the only MMO I've played which has instances and is not considered "sandbox").
Honestly, I don't give a shit if people bot or not, actually, I'd prefer it if they were. That way I can blow them up and steal their shit easier.
_________
Currently playing: Black Desert Korea (Waiting for EU)
Always hating on instances in MMOs! Open worlds, open PvP, territory control and housing please. More persistence, more fun.
Do you find it the least bit hypocritical on face value that EVE’s lead designer is openly part of one of the larger botting and RMT corp alliances in the game? Kristoffer "CCP Soundwave" Touborg a former director, spymaster et al… (YOUTUBE VIDEO)
Gee… The game’s current lead designer held what corp position again? Hmmm… To quote him, "No Honor", indeed. It at least makes you think doesn't it? Considering the games history.
Yes. CCP has looked into implementing a bot system of their own for players to use. I’ve been hesitant in writing it outright because I somehow lost my link to the quote and status. IDK. So, I am simply stating it and hoping you’ll not accuse me of making things up.
Really. That's one dead falsehood of the ones labeled. I could slay some more. But that would be counter productive as I'm not looking at a fight as much as exchanging viewpoints.
Adam... Sure. But I'd contend that with some thought to fun on the design teams part in play activities that you'd enjoy those fleet roams a heckuvalot more. As it is i wonder if you'll say the same thing a year and a half from now. I hope so for your sake but I wonder.
And Adam, while I have a few moments … perhaps, you don’t give a shit, but how do you think player miners, industrialist, and even wormhole exploiters feel about botting ( and how excessive it is in alliances) knowing what it does to their game fun, their place in EVE, and ISK earning potential?
Mining is per the developers quote “the backbone of EVE.”
I haven’t said that EVE is terribad. Only that we are blinded by unfulfilled potentials and thus perhaps overly favorable toward what’s really a mediocre, dull, play experience only livened up by bullshit instigated with others.