This is why I hope BioWare doesn't listen too much to their fan base. If you don't have people complaining it's "too much like WoW" you have people complaining "it's not WoW enough."
This isn't WoW people. Let them make the game how they want before you get to play it.
You don't know how the game is going to be like or how they're going to tackle in game issues. No need to jump out and say "OMGwhydoesn'tithavemyfavouriteWoWfeature?!"
I like the no cross server dungeons and the no dual spec. While i enjoy ds in wow the cross server dungeons get u in to many groups witn people who will just be a complete ass. Pull a mob and leave in middle of fight, or leave after pull when they are the healer.
To many times this stuff happens because u arent running wiht guys on your server so theres no penatly or anything for acting that way. If in tor u act like an ass the word will get around and people wont wanna run with u. I like that.
Ds isnt a big deal. Wow added ds because of lack of healers and tanks. And even then people will que as tank and force someone else to tank who qued as dps so no i dont really see anything wrong with no cross sever dungeon que or ds.
This is a link to the official SWTOR forums compiling the known facts about the game (or at least so far, remember, NOTHING is final yet). Anyway, let me draw your attention to the line where it says that Taral V, a mid level flash point for the Republic has an aproximate lenght of 90 to 120 mins. How about that?
And also, remember that flashpoints were originally thought as a one run only event, but after testing, that idea was rejected, and for what has been said around they changed to a 24 hour lockdown after you complete the run.
Those two reasons are enough for me to not want to randomize who am I going to run a flashpoint with.
As to the dual spec system, i have split feelings about it. Mostly, because we still don't have solid information on each class and advanced class, and specs and whatnot, ~BUT~ if this game follows the model where the Tanks and Healers have a really deficient dmg output, then YES, I would like a dual spec option. If the classes are designed in an efficient way, the dual spec option may not be a necesity.
And adding another idea to the dual spec issue, remember that you will have companions. And they will have different rolls. So, if I assume correctly, and what you want is to be able to switch your spec to speed up your solo gameplay, I believe that the right companion will fill that gap for you.
Finally, I want to say that ~I~ARE~TANK~! That's what all my main characters are in every single MMORPG I've played. And If I feel like playing a different style than a tank, I just create a ranged dps alt (i like casters a lot), or even a healer, and I level them somewhat close to the tank. Like that, If I want to do something different, and not just change a few skills in my main character's action bar, I just change the whole character all together.
First of all I have the utmost confidence in Bioware as a developer, and I want SW:TOR to be a huge success, and any criticism I have about the game shouldn't be taken as mean-spirited as I hope for the best. That said I don't truly understand the direction they are going here with this game, and I tried looking up the info to no avail. Hopefully someone here can shed some light on what looks like to be a huge oversight from Bioware.
As far I as can tell the game is a full-on Holy Trinity based MMO, that means every group will need a tank, dps, and healer to function. Then they went ahead and made their game 4 group max instead of 5 groups, saying at the game works better this way. I have mixed feelings about this, mainly that now, ratio wise, for every 12 dps instead of needing 4 tanks and 4 healers, you're going to need a 6 tanks and 6 healers. That's a huge increase in required tanks/healers especially with no dual speccing or cross-server LFD. Now I know Bioware has contigencies in place, mainly they designed majority of their classes (75%?) to be able to spec into tank or healing roles if needed, and they also have a companion system to fill in any missing roles. Now I didn't want to bring Rift into this, as I believe also that Rift is a good game and Trion is doing what they can to make their game work, but the similiarities are there. Rift also have a very flexible class mechanic that allowed characters to spec into tanking or healing as neccessary, and it even had Quint-spec to really drive the point home that they wanted players to tank and heal. The Result? Still a huge lack of tanks and healers. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them play tanks/heals. DPS spent hours having find groups, and bleeded subs in the meantime, it wasn't 'til a whole 4 months later they decided to put in cross-server LFD, as the obvious solution.
Now for the companion system, I couldn't find any knowledge on it, but hopefully said player can control their companion like a pet class and thus utilize their abilities for pet tanking/healing mobs. And even if it is just AI control, I've seen some really good healing AI, so maybe well coordinated groups can get away with AI heals, but definitely not tanking. I honestly don't know how companions are going to work. Making them too weak means that they are worthless at endgame thus reinforcing the need for LFD and dual specing, or making them too strong and you will have players actively benching real life players over them so they won't have to split the loot.
I read up recently that Bioware caved in and made it possible for players to be able to respec their Advanced Class which is a smart move, and hopefully they will continue to be smart and implement other now standard trinity mmo based features necessarry for players to take this game seriously. Can anybody please explain the rational behind Bioware's MMO design decisions? And please don't tell me it's just to be "different", I'm not interested in hearing a "less wait and see aproach" excuse either. If your game is missing key features, don't launch the game until they are implemented.
cross server faceless que system, made wows community even more asshat and godawfull (i played it and hated the changes, you went from running stuff with friends or making friends with the random people from your server that you met running things to always grouping with random strangers, most of which were incompetent boobs).
as far as dual speccing, the specs have vastly different story lines once you get into advancing them, sorcerers and assassins dont associate with the same npcs, que.
First and foremost, this game (SWTOR) will be a heavy lobby-system game. Period.
Where do you get this from?
As far as I remember and currently know(based on testing) you have to run to the instances, there is no sitting in town, get the group together and auto enter the flashpoint(dungeon), the latter is considered a Lobby-System.
Now the warzone side(BGs) you can queue from anywhere.
Personally, I couldn't care less about cross server LFGs. As for the dual spec, I'm personally glad since it will only increase my immersion if I can't be everything in a single toon just by switching specs. The dual specs only serve to remove the consequences from making choices when you create a character. I can understand why people might like it, but personally I don't and I am glad it is not a feature of SWTOR.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
One of the main developers talked in great detail about why he doesnt like the Cross Server Queue system.
In a blunt summary, is that it kill server community.
Which I fully agree with, WoW doesn't have a community any more because of this reason, sure older servers did have communities. But as much as many on this site like to talk about WoW not having a community pre-lfg cross server, their was and is a drastic difference between the servers that were created after and before the LFG system was implemented.
Having the Cross server LFG system at launce would kill any possiblity of a community in Swtor before it even started.
As for Dual spec they seem to be not having it set in stone to be left out of the game, just not in its current state or probably even at release. They did just announce that they will allow Respecs out of your advance class, as many beta testers were pushing for it.
One of the main developers talked in great detail about why he doesnt like the Cross Server Queue system.
In a blunt summary, is that it kill server community.
Which I fully agree with, WoW doesn't have a community any more because of this reason, sure older servers did have communities. But as much as many on this site like to talk about WoW not having a community pre-lfg cross server, their was and is a drastic difference between the servers that were created after and before the LFG system was implemented.
Having the Cross server LFG system at launce would kill any possiblity of a community in Swtor before it even started.
exactly my thoughts when those cross server queues came in wow.
i actually prefer to get to know my enemies, be afraid of them when they enter the bg, or have the same reaction on the other side, with cross server BGs all we had was a number of random players out of a subscriber base of 10 million ^^
wasnt the best idea imo, but it made BG queues faster.
THIS on the other hand is quite another topic, bg queues in wow... how the hell can it take so long to find 20-80 random people out of 10 million, i mean there is no pre sorting clase whise or anything....
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
I see dual spec being added very soon after launch. They have said that tank/healer specced characters can level fine solo, only slightly slower than pure dps. I believe this, but its going to be hard to change the mindset of MMO players that tank/heals is a crappy way to level so players wont want to do it.
Cross LFD really does need to come in, especially when the game becomes top heavy. If the vast majority are at 50 and you are trying to level an alt, especially when you arent a tank and to a lesser extent healer, it can take hours to get a group together.
One thing I am concerned about with dual specs, are we gonna have to have quad specs? A dual spec for each advanced class? because people are going to want to change between the 2 advanced classes over and over again
Alright, let's not beat around the bush here people. Me and a lot of people simply want to know straight up if people that roll dps classes (that simply want to dps and only dps) are gonna get the short end of the stick when it comes to grouping. We don't need to wait until the game is released and endgame content to find out that there's going to be a disproportionate about of dps players compared to tanks or healers. This has literally happened in every single mmo that's ever been created that uses the Holy Trinity system, and Bioware should have the foresight to see this as an issue, and have all the grouping tools neccessary at launch to relieve this problem. If people feel that this topic is too early to tell if LFD and Dual spec tools will be necessary that's fine as well. Go ahead and do your testing Bioware, have a huge volume of people test the endgame content, and if you see a large amount of dps players sitting around a fire for an hour singing kum ba yah, while tanks and healers are getting instant groups, then fix it
I know there's been videos of people doing flashpoints at level 10ish where there was no designated healer and the runs went fine. My concerns isn't about level 10 content, the concern is what happens to dps when the classes become more powerful and more specialized in performing their tanking, and healing roles for endgame content. I cannot emphasize how important it is for Bioware to learn from the mistakes of other MMOs in underestimating their player base, and the importance of getting into endgame groups in a timely manner. The problem is that I'm seeing, 4-man groups requiring higher tank/healer: dps ratios then 5-mans, flash points groups lasting a long time, no dual-spec, and no cross-server LFD make a bad dps queue problem even worse. Now if the companion system is really good to the point where you can legitimately replace a human tank or healer in a group then all is fine, but I seriously doubt it.
To reiterate, SW:TOR is looking to be a very un-dps friendly game, and I know that some people feel that dps players should be forced to adapt to a new playstyle, but frankly that's simply bad business, and I want this game to be a success. Countless other MMOs have attempted their own take on the trinity system, but dps players almost always got the shaft in groups regardless. The MMOs like Rift that did see the error of their ways finally put the neccesary grouping tools in place, and those games are going to survive long into the near future. If there is any more info on how dps players are going to succeed at endgame without being forced to tank or heal I would love to see more posts about it.
Anything cross server is not needed, whatsoever. It ruins the game, in my opinion. When I played vanilla WoW, the server BGs were the absolute best. Seeing the same people was awesome.
1) Choose from a list of approx 500 possible game features present in other games.
2) If feature is in New Game, complain that it isn't done properly.
3) If feature is not in New Game, complain that it's missing.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I never really got the idea of 'server community' never really saw it in wow, myself. I started in vanilla and played until recently, never really noticed anything of the sort, neither did I in AO, well maybe just barely, since it was always the same people selling buffs and trade services. I dont even know what that really means. I always figured it was more a sandbox thing.
I just always did my own thing when I wanted to do it. The only real 'community' i ever felt part of was my guild communities.
First of all I have the utmost confidence in Bioware as a developer, and I want SW:TOR to be a huge success, and any criticism I have about the game shouldn't be taken as mean-spirited as I hope for the best. That said I don't truly understand the direction they are going here with this game, and I tried looking up the info to no avail. Hopefully someone here can shed some light on what looks like to be a huge oversight from Bioware.
As far I as can tell the game is a full-on Holy Trinity based MMO, that means every group will need a tank, dps, and healer to function. Then they went ahead and made their game 4 group max instead of 5 groups, saying at the game works better this way. I have mixed feelings about this, mainly that now, ratio wise, for every 12 dps instead of needing 4 tanks and 4 healers, you're going to need a 6 tanks and 6 healers. That's a huge increase in required tanks/healers especially with no dual speccing or cross-server LFD. Now I know Bioware has contigencies in place, mainly they designed majority of their classes (75%?) to be able to spec into tank or healing roles if needed, and they also have a companion system to fill in any missing roles. Now I didn't want to bring Rift into this, as I believe also that Rift is a good game and Trion is doing what they can to make their game work, but the similiarities are there. Rift also have a very flexible class mechanic that allowed characters to spec into tanking or healing as neccessary, and it even had Quint-spec to really drive the point home that they wanted players to tank and heal. The Result? Still a huge lack of tanks and healers. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them play tanks/heals. DPS spent hours having find groups, and bleeded subs in the meantime, it wasn't 'til a whole 4 months later they decided to put in cross-server LFD, as the obvious solution.
Now for the companion system, I couldn't find any knowledge on it, but hopefully said player can control their companion like a pet class and thus utilize their abilities for pet tanking/healing mobs. And even if it is just AI control, I've seen some really good healing AI, so maybe well coordinated groups can get away with AI heals, but definitely not tanking. I honestly don't know how companions are going to work. Making them too weak means that they are worthless at endgame thus reinforcing the need for LFD and dual specing, or making them too strong and you will have players actively benching real life players over them so they won't have to split the loot.
I read up recently that Bioware caved in and made it possible for players to be able to respec their Advanced Class which is a smart move, and hopefully they will continue to be smart and implement other now standard trinity mmo based features necessarry for players to take this game seriously. Can anybody please explain the rational behind Bioware's MMO design decisions? And please don't tell me it's just to be "different", I'm not interested in hearing a "less wait and see aproach" excuse either. If your game is missing key features, don't launch the game until they are implemented.
I honestly don't really see your point. Tanking and healing have always been more difficult roles to play than DPS for nearly as long as MMOs have existed.
I played Rift for the first couple of months and unlike you I found there to be more tanks than anything and I also found that the class system made it MUCH easier to run groups and to have people adjust on the fly. Most of the time people were happy to switch as the group required and by having 3 archetypes that could tank and 2 that could heal made it so that there was always someone capable of doing one or the other. I leveled mostly by doing instances, so i had tons of experience of LFG and such. The major problem in Rift was that the the solo-questing was made to be the primary leveling mechanic, so most people didn't bother with groups. This had nothing to do with the class setup or lack of tanks or w/e. They also lost tons of population, which resulted in being even harder to find instance groups - but once againg, this is no different from what happened on my server in EQ2 when its population was very low - groups were hard to find. We got merged and now the grouping is much better.
Using the trinity setup and being able to adjust classes is nothing new.
If the point of your entire essay was to say "i want cross-server lfg", you should be aware that cross-server LFD results in a lot more negatives than positives and downright destroys communities which are vital to the longevity of an MMO. As many people hate the idea as those that enjoy. it's really a bandaid solution that doesn't address that actual problems of motivation to do groups and balancing populations on servers.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall Currently Playing: ESO
This thread has actually been very educational. At first I thought cross-server LFG was a necesity, but upon reading the comments here I realize its true- it does ruin a sense of community. I remember once in WoW i queued on my Rogue with a friend.. both of us were dps... when our que finally popped we went in and started doing our thing. Turns out the tank was one of the most arrogant douchebags I've ever run into in game or out- basically he ended up just sitting there while waves after waves of mobs came at us, content in letting the group whipe because he decided he didn't like us for whatever reason. People get away with being douchebags like that because with cross-server parties there's always more... so you don't have to worry about having a poor rep. It really does take away from the feeling of community, it makes the virtual world/server a little more barren because everyone's alienated from eachother it seems. You still have guilds and such but one of the best things about MMOs is having to seek out help from players around you.. its how you build friendships and even eventually join or create guilds! This said, I'd rather deal with having to branch off into the world to find people to group with then just pick my nose waiting for a queue to throw me into a party with random people that probably won't even talk unless something goes painfully wrong- then the party will either disband or someone will start bitchin'. At least when you put effort into throwing a group together that group is much more likely to try to figure out how to work together/what went wrong etc. etc... imo, that's the best way to play, is when your fellow player gives you constructive feedback, as opposed to just ragequitting on a whipe because queues make it easy to get another party.
I thought I should clarify this, since there's a bit of speculation around.
We won't have cross server queuing for Flashpoints. We do think it's bad for building the server specific community, but that shouldn't be taken as some kind of of dogmatic approach to isolating servers from each other.
It has much to do with the age of the game and its community - if you start a new server and a community forms, having players create natural relationships during play is preferable over synthetic, short term relationships through a quick to use tool.
Once a game has so much content that it easily fragments the player base and local community so that it will cause long wait times for players to access such content, then the question of giving players the right tools to find other players becomes pressing again - and we'll worry about it at that time and see what the right approach will be.
As for PvP: The goal is obviously to keep queue times low. We'll do anything to ensure that people that want to play a match get a match. Features such as bolstering are a direct result of that approach. At this point there is no cross server queuing - but that does not mean we wouldn't entertain it as a measure to improve queue times if we feel it is necessary. As said, we're just practical about these things, not dogmatic.
Hope that clarifies, and, as always, interested to hear your thoughts.
What it doesn't say is "you can longer pay to reset your tree points and re-do them",which being able to was confirmed a long time ago.
Correct. The ability to respec your skill point distribution is still in the game.
Summary, since this is a confusing topic:
You can change your skill point distribution by paying credits at a vendor on your capital world. That has not changed.
You may or may not be able to change your Advanced Class, we haven't decided on this one yet. If you can, the cost would be significant. That has not changed.
There is currently no plan to add dual spec (the ability to swap almost instantly between two skill point configurations) for launch. At this point, it seems not necessary for us, but we're not opposed to add it at a later point / patch should we feel that the game would benefit from it.
this post was a few months ago and since then they have made it so AC can be changed, however its not something that can be done all the time. from the way it is described, they have set it up so if you realize you made a mistake early on and want to change to the other AC then it is cheap. but as higher lvl you get, the more it costs to the point of being almost impossible.
The design goal and reason why we settled on this method is as follows.
People make mistakes. Quite a lot actually, surprisingly. The line 'omg, I picked the wrong AC' shows up more than you might expect in our chatlogs.
We do want your AC choice to matter, but we also don't want to punish simple mistakes. So, the current design is that changing your advanced class initially is cheap (e.g. changing it right at level 10 is almost free).
As you gain levels, the price increases dramatically, and quickly. At level 20, it might just be out of reach for almost everyone. The exact pricing curve is still being tweaked based on testing, of course.
We definitely know this is a controversial topic in the community, but we feel that this solution gives us the best of both worlds.
Short: We allow for mistakes and short term buyer's remorse, but don't realistically allow for changing your advanced class like pants.
oh and here is the interview from the fansite summit in which georg first said these things won't be in(atlaunch at the very least) and why they feel it isn't needed right away
I honestly don't really see your point. Tanking and healing have always been more difficult roles to play than DPS for nearly as long as MMOs have existed.
I played Rift for the first couple of months and unlike you I found there to be more tanks than anything and I also found that the class system made it MUCH easier to run groups and to have people adjust on the fly. Most of the time people were happy to switch as the group required and by having 3 archetypes that could tank and 2 that could heal made it so that there was always someone capable of doing one or the other. I leveled mostly by doing instances, so i had tons of experience of LFG and such. The major problem in Rift was that the the solo-questing was made to be the primary leveling mechanic, so most people didn't bother with groups. This had nothing to do with the class setup or lack of tanks or w/e. They also lost tons of population, which resulted in being even harder to find instance groups - but once againg, this is no different from what happened on my server in EQ2 when its population was very low - groups were hard to find. We got merged and now the grouping is much better.
Using the trinity setup and being able to adjust classes is nothing new.
If the point of your entire essay was to say "i want cross-server lfg", you should be aware that cross-server LFD results in a lot more negatives than positives and downright destroys communities which are vital to the longevity of an MMO. As many people hate the idea as those that enjoy. it's really a bandaid solution that doesn't address that actual problems of motivation to do groups and balancing populations on servers.
Your post is well stated, and I don't doubt that's what happened in your experience, but by no means reflected what happened in the majority of the Rift community. I don't need to tell you all what happened because it's exactly the same old song and dance. People leveled up to endgame as dps because they didn't want to tank or heal, and found out that they couldn't get groups. They went to the forums clamoring for cross-server LFD to reduce the queue times, and people came online saying that it was going to ruin the community, and Trion listened to these people for months, because they didn't "Feel it was necessary at this time". What happened was that Trion took a gamble that dps players would take really long grouping times as incentives to take up tanking or healing specs, form groups, and community stuff, and they didn't. What the dps players did is say "I'm not gonna pay X amount per month to go hours waiting for groups, I'm gonna quit." Finally, Trion bled enough subs that they had to input the cross-server LFD tool, and big shock, all the people that complained against that very feature originally are now using it to get faster groups and participate in endgame content.
So enter SW:TOR another MMO that uses the Trinity system, but has less grouping features then both WoW and Rift, and a higher tank/heal: dps ratio on top of that. Developers told players that they didn't want to implement Advance Class respecs unless they had to. But surprise, they had to because they knew it was a dumb idea to force people that leveled up the wrong AC to reroll a new class from scratch and sit through every single flash point mission over again to get back to where they were before.
So what do you think my point is?
Also please don't misinterpret this post as aggressive in anyway, I swore that I made it clear that I don't hate tanking, or healing, or Star Wars or MMOs or anything of the sort. I just want this game to do well, and I fail to see the logic of playing the "wait and see approach" that Bioware is doing and people are now praising, when it's completely uneccessary. Tank and healer shortage has occurred in practically Every Single MMO That Has Ever Used the Holy Trinity System of grouping. Waiting until after the game has already launched to address this key issue is not something we should be patting Bioware on the back for.
I never found it to be a problem in MMO's getting a group, this is probably because out of the last 3 MMO's I have played I have rolled a Tank. I don't believe that Bioware will reinvent the wheel on this one as like others have said before me the tank and healer roles are always out numbered.
While dual spec does slightly aliviate this problem it has always felt like a band-aid to a bigger problem, which is "How to make others more inclinded to tank and heal?" it just allows people that would normally not "main spec heals" to keep an off spec in case they really need to just switch specs to complete a flashpoint.
I know one of the issues is that Bioware is probably feeling like with their current set up each class is more like 2 classes, and the ability to dual spec both Advance classes would cut in half the amount of classes to play or reroll. Since they did already reneg on the respec issue I forsee that the Dual Spec issue is just a matter of time. WoW went through the same issue, when people feel it is more nessecary to just respec to fit the role required in the instance or pvp then dual spec needs to be implemented.
Comments
This is why I hope BioWare doesn't listen too much to their fan base. If you don't have people complaining it's "too much like WoW" you have people complaining "it's not WoW enough."
This isn't WoW people. Let them make the game how they want before you get to play it.
You don't know how the game is going to be like or how they're going to tackle in game issues. No need to jump out and say "OMGwhydoesn'tithavemyfavouriteWoWfeature?!"
-Azure Prower
http://www.youtube.com/AzurePrower
I like the no cross server dungeons and the no dual spec. While i enjoy ds in wow the cross server dungeons get u in to many groups witn people who will just be a complete ass. Pull a mob and leave in middle of fight, or leave after pull when they are the healer.
To many times this stuff happens because u arent running wiht guys on your server so theres no penatly or anything for acting that way. If in tor u act like an ass the word will get around and people wont wanna run with u. I like that.
Ds isnt a big deal. Wow added ds because of lack of healers and tanks. And even then people will que as tank and force someone else to tank who qued as dps so no i dont really see anything wrong with no cross sever dungeon que or ds.
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
ALRIGHT!
8 )
Take 15 minutes from your life and watch this interview to Daniel Erickson. This was at PAX East 2011, March 19.
I just did and helped a lot.
http://moseisleyradio.com/2011/03/19/open-bounty-004-daniel-erickson/
Now, the reason for not having a LFG tool is because you don't need one.
Yes, I know. A million others have said that, but here is the real WHY:
Flashpoints are not your standarized 20 minute dungeon run. Flashpoints are strong story points that require a good chunk of time to complete.
http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=300223#anchor25
This is a link to the official SWTOR forums compiling the known facts about the game (or at least so far, remember, NOTHING is final yet). Anyway, let me draw your attention to the line where it says that Taral V, a mid level flash point for the Republic has an aproximate lenght of 90 to 120 mins. How about that?
And also, remember that flashpoints were originally thought as a one run only event, but after testing, that idea was rejected, and for what has been said around they changed to a 24 hour lockdown after you complete the run.
Those two reasons are enough for me to not want to randomize who am I going to run a flashpoint with.
As to the dual spec system, i have split feelings about it. Mostly, because we still don't have solid information on each class and advanced class, and specs and whatnot, ~BUT~ if this game follows the model where the Tanks and Healers have a really deficient dmg output, then YES, I would like a dual spec option. If the classes are designed in an efficient way, the dual spec option may not be a necesity.
And adding another idea to the dual spec issue, remember that you will have companions. And they will have different rolls. So, if I assume correctly, and what you want is to be able to switch your spec to speed up your solo gameplay, I believe that the right companion will fill that gap for you.
Finally, I want to say that ~I~ARE~TANK~! That's what all my main characters are in every single MMORPG I've played. And If I feel like playing a different style than a tank, I just create a ranged dps alt (i like casters a lot), or even a healer, and I level them somewhat close to the tank. Like that, If I want to do something different, and not just change a few skills in my main character's action bar, I just change the whole character all together.
d_(^_^)_b
cross server faceless que system, made wows community even more asshat and godawfull (i played it and hated the changes, you went from running stuff with friends or making friends with the random people from your server that you met running things to always grouping with random strangers, most of which were incompetent boobs).
as far as dual speccing, the specs have vastly different story lines once you get into advancing them, sorcerers and assassins dont associate with the same npcs, que.
Where do you get this from?
As far as I remember and currently know(based on testing) you have to run to the instances, there is no sitting in town, get the group together and auto enter the flashpoint(dungeon), the latter is considered a Lobby-System.
Now the warzone side(BGs) you can queue from anywhere.
Personally, I couldn't care less about cross server LFGs. As for the dual spec, I'm personally glad since it will only increase my immersion if I can't be everything in a single toon just by switching specs. The dual specs only serve to remove the consequences from making choices when you create a character. I can understand why people might like it, but personally I don't and I am glad it is not a feature of SWTOR.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
One of the main developers talked in great detail about why he doesnt like the Cross Server Queue system.
In a blunt summary, is that it kill server community.
Which I fully agree with, WoW doesn't have a community any more because of this reason, sure older servers did have communities. But as much as many on this site like to talk about WoW not having a community pre-lfg cross server, their was and is a drastic difference between the servers that were created after and before the LFG system was implemented.
Having the Cross server LFG system at launce would kill any possiblity of a community in Swtor before it even started.
As for Dual spec they seem to be not having it set in stone to be left out of the game, just not in its current state or probably even at release. They did just announce that they will allow Respecs out of your advance class, as many beta testers were pushing for it.
exactly my thoughts when those cross server queues came in wow.
i actually prefer to get to know my enemies, be afraid of them when they enter the bg, or have the same reaction on the other side, with cross server BGs all we had was a number of random players out of a subscriber base of 10 million ^^
wasnt the best idea imo, but it made BG queues faster.
THIS on the other hand is quite another topic, bg queues in wow... how the hell can it take so long to find 20-80 random people out of 10 million, i mean there is no pre sorting clase whise or anything....
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
I see dual spec being added very soon after launch. They have said that tank/healer specced characters can level fine solo, only slightly slower than pure dps. I believe this, but its going to be hard to change the mindset of MMO players that tank/heals is a crappy way to level so players wont want to do it.
Cross LFD really does need to come in, especially when the game becomes top heavy. If the vast majority are at 50 and you are trying to level an alt, especially when you arent a tank and to a lesser extent healer, it can take hours to get a group together.
One thing I am concerned about with dual specs, are we gonna have to have quad specs? A dual spec for each advanced class? because people are going to want to change between the 2 advanced classes over and over again
Alright, let's not beat around the bush here people. Me and a lot of people simply want to know straight up if people that roll dps classes (that simply want to dps and only dps) are gonna get the short end of the stick when it comes to grouping. We don't need to wait until the game is released and endgame content to find out that there's going to be a disproportionate about of dps players compared to tanks or healers. This has literally happened in every single mmo that's ever been created that uses the Holy Trinity system, and Bioware should have the foresight to see this as an issue, and have all the grouping tools neccessary at launch to relieve this problem. If people feel that this topic is too early to tell if LFD and Dual spec tools will be necessary that's fine as well. Go ahead and do your testing Bioware, have a huge volume of people test the endgame content, and if you see a large amount of dps players sitting around a fire for an hour singing kum ba yah, while tanks and healers are getting instant groups, then fix it
I know there's been videos of people doing flashpoints at level 10ish where there was no designated healer and the runs went fine. My concerns isn't about level 10 content, the concern is what happens to dps when the classes become more powerful and more specialized in performing their tanking, and healing roles for endgame content. I cannot emphasize how important it is for Bioware to learn from the mistakes of other MMOs in underestimating their player base, and the importance of getting into endgame groups in a timely manner. The problem is that I'm seeing, 4-man groups requiring higher tank/healer: dps ratios then 5-mans, flash points groups lasting a long time, no dual-spec, and no cross-server LFD make a bad dps queue problem even worse. Now if the companion system is really good to the point where you can legitimately replace a human tank or healer in a group then all is fine, but I seriously doubt it.
To reiterate, SW:TOR is looking to be a very un-dps friendly game, and I know that some people feel that dps players should be forced to adapt to a new playstyle, but frankly that's simply bad business, and I want this game to be a success. Countless other MMOs have attempted their own take on the trinity system, but dps players almost always got the shaft in groups regardless. The MMOs like Rift that did see the error of their ways finally put the neccesary grouping tools in place, and those games are going to survive long into the near future. If there is any more info on how dps players are going to succeed at endgame without being forced to tank or heal I would love to see more posts about it.
if u want to play as DPS only you will be waiting longer for a group.
Its that simple.
I dont mind personally.
Playing: Nothing
Looking forward to: Nothing
Such a system is not needed at the start, but could be beneficial once the first expansion comes out and even then just for the older content.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
Anything cross server is not needed, whatsoever. It ruins the game, in my opinion. When I played vanilla WoW, the server BGs were the absolute best. Seeing the same people was awesome.
Cross server ruins everything.
The MMORPG Method:
1) Choose from a list of approx 500 possible game features present in other games.
2) If feature is in New Game, complain that it isn't done properly.
3) If feature is not in New Game, complain that it's missing.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Are flash point main story or side story?
I never really got the idea of 'server community' never really saw it in wow, myself. I started in vanilla and played until recently, never really noticed anything of the sort, neither did I in AO, well maybe just barely, since it was always the same people selling buffs and trade services. I dont even know what that really means. I always figured it was more a sandbox thing.
I just always did my own thing when I wanted to do it. The only real 'community' i ever felt part of was my guild communities.
"First and foremost, this game (SWTOR) will be a heavy lobby-system game. Period."
Baloney
4) If feature is in WoW complain that the New Game is WoW Clone
I honestly don't really see your point. Tanking and healing have always been more difficult roles to play than DPS for nearly as long as MMOs have existed.
I played Rift for the first couple of months and unlike you I found there to be more tanks than anything and I also found that the class system made it MUCH easier to run groups and to have people adjust on the fly. Most of the time people were happy to switch as the group required and by having 3 archetypes that could tank and 2 that could heal made it so that there was always someone capable of doing one or the other. I leveled mostly by doing instances, so i had tons of experience of LFG and such. The major problem in Rift was that the the solo-questing was made to be the primary leveling mechanic, so most people didn't bother with groups. This had nothing to do with the class setup or lack of tanks or w/e. They also lost tons of population, which resulted in being even harder to find instance groups - but once againg, this is no different from what happened on my server in EQ2 when its population was very low - groups were hard to find. We got merged and now the grouping is much better.
Using the trinity setup and being able to adjust classes is nothing new.
If the point of your entire essay was to say "i want cross-server lfg", you should be aware that cross-server LFD results in a lot more negatives than positives and downright destroys communities which are vital to the longevity of an MMO. As many people hate the idea as those that enjoy. it's really a bandaid solution that doesn't address that actual problems of motivation to do groups and balancing populations on servers.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
This thread has actually been very educational. At first I thought cross-server LFG was a necesity, but upon reading the comments here I realize its true- it does ruin a sense of community. I remember once in WoW i queued on my Rogue with a friend.. both of us were dps... when our que finally popped we went in and started doing our thing. Turns out the tank was one of the most arrogant douchebags I've ever run into in game or out- basically he ended up just sitting there while waves after waves of mobs came at us, content in letting the group whipe because he decided he didn't like us for whatever reason. People get away with being douchebags like that because with cross-server parties there's always more... so you don't have to worry about having a poor rep. It really does take away from the feeling of community, it makes the virtual world/server a little more barren because everyone's alienated from eachother it seems. You still have guilds and such but one of the best things about MMOs is having to seek out help from players around you.. its how you build friendships and even eventually join or create guilds! This said, I'd rather deal with having to branch off into the world to find people to group with then just pick my nose waiting for a queue to throw me into a party with random people that probably won't even talk unless something goes painfully wrong- then the party will either disband or someone will start bitchin'. At least when you put effort into throwing a group together that group is much more likely to try to figure out how to work together/what went wrong etc. etc... imo, that's the best way to play, is when your fellow player gives you constructive feedback, as opposed to just ragequitting on a whipe because queues make it easy to get another party.
if you want to know what bioware was thinking, here is georgs thoughts on cross server queueing:
GeorgZoeller
Joined: May 2010
05.05.2011 , 09:50 PM
Hi guys,
I thought I should clarify this, since there's a bit of speculation around.
We won't have cross server queuing for Flashpoints. We do think it's bad for building the server specific community, but that shouldn't be taken as some kind of of dogmatic approach to isolating servers from each other.
It has much to do with the age of the game and its community - if you start a new server and a community forms, having players create natural relationships during play is preferable over synthetic, short term relationships through a quick to use tool.
Once a game has so much content that it easily fragments the player base and local community so that it will cause long wait times for players to access such content, then the question of giving players the right tools to find other players becomes pressing again - and we'll worry about it at that time and see what the right approach will be.
As for PvP: The goal is obviously to keep queue times low. We'll do anything to ensure that people that want to play a match get a match. Features such as bolstering are a direct result of that approach. At this point there is no cross server queuing - but that does not mean we wouldn't entertain it as a measure to improve queue times if we feel it is necessary. As said, we're just practical about these things, not dogmatic.
Hope that clarifies, and, as always, interested to hear your thoughts.
http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=6315137#post6315137
also he briefly mentions he doesn't feel they need dual spec right now:
GeorgZoeller
Joined: May 2010
04.23.2011 , 02:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cinge
What it doesn't say is "you can longer pay to reset your tree points and re-do them",which being able to was confirmed a long time ago.
Correct. The ability to respec your skill point distribution is still in the game.
Summary, since this is a confusing topic:
You can change your skill point distribution by paying credits at a vendor on your capital world. That has not changed.
You may or may not be able to change your Advanced Class, we haven't decided on this one yet. If you can, the cost would be significant. That has not changed.
There is currently no plan to add dual spec (the ability to swap almost instantly between two skill point configurations) for launch. At this point, it seems not necessary for us, but we're not opposed to add it at a later point / patch should we feel that the game would benefit from it.
Hope that helps.
http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=6182908#post6182908
this post was a few months ago and since then they have made it so AC can be changed, however its not something that can be done all the time. from the way it is described, they have set it up so if you realize you made a mistake early on and want to change to the other AC then it is cheap. but as higher lvl you get, the more it costs to the point of being almost impossible.
GeorgZoeller
Joined: May 2010
07.21.2011 , 10:04 PM
The design goal and reason why we settled on this method is as follows.
People make mistakes. Quite a lot actually, surprisingly. The line 'omg, I picked the wrong AC' shows up more than you might expect in our chatlogs.
We do want your AC choice to matter, but we also don't want to punish simple mistakes. So, the current design is that changing your advanced class initially is cheap (e.g. changing it right at level 10 is almost free).
As you gain levels, the price increases dramatically, and quickly. At level 20, it might just be out of reach for almost everyone. The exact pricing curve is still being tweaked based on testing, of course.
We definitely know this is a controversial topic in the community, but we feel that this solution gives us the best of both worlds.
Short: We allow for mistakes and short term buyer's remorse, but don't realistically allow for changing your advanced class like pants.
http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=7515395#post7515395
oh and here is the interview from the fansite summit in which georg first said these things won't be in(atlaunch at the very least) and why they feel it isn't needed right away
http://corellianrun.com/2011/05/05/fansite-summit-crr-interview-with-georg-zoeller/
Seems like Bioware got the right angle on this issue.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
Your post is well stated, and I don't doubt that's what happened in your experience, but by no means reflected what happened in the majority of the Rift community. I don't need to tell you all what happened because it's exactly the same old song and dance. People leveled up to endgame as dps because they didn't want to tank or heal, and found out that they couldn't get groups. They went to the forums clamoring for cross-server LFD to reduce the queue times, and people came online saying that it was going to ruin the community, and Trion listened to these people for months, because they didn't "Feel it was necessary at this time". What happened was that Trion took a gamble that dps players would take really long grouping times as incentives to take up tanking or healing specs, form groups, and community stuff, and they didn't. What the dps players did is say "I'm not gonna pay X amount per month to go hours waiting for groups, I'm gonna quit." Finally, Trion bled enough subs that they had to input the cross-server LFD tool, and big shock, all the people that complained against that very feature originally are now using it to get faster groups and participate in endgame content.
So enter SW:TOR another MMO that uses the Trinity system, but has less grouping features then both WoW and Rift, and a higher tank/heal: dps ratio on top of that. Developers told players that they didn't want to implement Advance Class respecs unless they had to. But surprise, they had to because they knew it was a dumb idea to force people that leveled up the wrong AC to reroll a new class from scratch and sit through every single flash point mission over again to get back to where they were before.
So what do you think my point is?
Also please don't misinterpret this post as aggressive in anyway, I swore that I made it clear that I don't hate tanking, or healing, or Star Wars or MMOs or anything of the sort. I just want this game to do well, and I fail to see the logic of playing the "wait and see approach" that Bioware is doing and people are now praising, when it's completely uneccessary. Tank and healer shortage has occurred in practically Every Single MMO That Has Ever Used the Holy Trinity System of grouping. Waiting until after the game has already launched to address this key issue is not something we should be patting Bioware on the back for.
I never found it to be a problem in MMO's getting a group, this is probably because out of the last 3 MMO's I have played I have rolled a Tank. I don't believe that Bioware will reinvent the wheel on this one as like others have said before me the tank and healer roles are always out numbered.
While dual spec does slightly aliviate this problem it has always felt like a band-aid to a bigger problem, which is "How to make others more inclinded to tank and heal?" it just allows people that would normally not "main spec heals" to keep an off spec in case they really need to just switch specs to complete a flashpoint.
I know one of the issues is that Bioware is probably feeling like with their current set up each class is more like 2 classes, and the ability to dual spec both Advance classes would cut in half the amount of classes to play or reroll. Since they did already reneg on the respec issue I forsee that the Dual Spec issue is just a matter of time. WoW went through the same issue, when people feel it is more nessecary to just respec to fit the role required in the instance or pvp then dual spec needs to be implemented.