Your post is well stated, and I don't doubt that's what happened in your experience, but by no means reflected what happened in the majority of the Rift community. I don't need to tell you all what happened because it's exactly the same old song and dance. People leveled up to endgame as dps because they didn't want to tank or heal, and found out that they couldn't get groups. They went to the forums clamoring for cross-server LFD to reduce the queue times, and people came online saying that it was going to ruin the community, and Trion listened to these people for months, because they didn't "Feel it was necessary at this time". What happened was that Trion took a gamble that dps players would take really long grouping times as incentives to take up tanking or healing specs, form groups, and community stuff, and they didn't. What the dps players did is say "I'm not gonna pay X amount per month to go hours waiting for groups, I'm gonna quit." Finally, Trion bled enough subs that they had to input the cross-server LFD tool, and big shock, all the people that complained against that very feature originally are now using it to get faster groups and participate in endgame content.
So enter SW:TOR another MMO that uses the Trinity system, but has less grouping features then both WoW and Rift, and a higher tank/heal: dps ratio on top of that. Developers told players that they didn't want to implement Advance Class respecs unless they had to. But surprise, they had to because they knew it was a dumb idea to force people that leveled up the wrong AC to reroll a new class from scratch and sit through every single flash point mission over again to get back to where they were before.
So what do you think my point is?
Also please don't misinterpret this post as aggressive in anyway, I swore that I made it clear that I don't hate tanking, or healing, or Star Wars or MMOs or anything of the sort. I just want this game to do well, and I fail to see the logic of playing the "wait and see approach" that Bioware is doing and people are now praising, when it's completely uneccessary. Tank and healer shortage has occurred in practically Every Single MMO That Has Ever Used the Holy Trinity System of grouping. Waiting until after the game has already launched to address this key issue is not something we should be patting Bioware on the back for.
Theorectically you would only need either a tank or a healer. You could use a companion to fill one of the other roles. Which should make getting a group together easier.
Originally posted by Z3R01 It doesn't matter if a dps class can heal and tank at the same time. Its a fact many people simply dont enjoy healing or tanking for whatever reason. I know personally Tanking makes me nervous and i dont play a game to be all nervous. So it wont mean dick if my character could tank, because i simply wont do it lol. Many people feel the same way i do about healing, tanking or both.
In this day and age you need a solid match making system, cross server is the easiest one to put together and its been proven to work.
Most of the time DPS never plans to tank willingly, but sometimes it just happens, sometimes you get all the agro and then what? You die? Nope, in this game you can take it because you're tough, and you know what else? You don't even need to yell for heals, you can do it yourself! Whoa!
Just because characters are given the means to take care of themselves does not mean you will be forced to play a strict role in encounters, it means the opposite. If a DPS can take a bit of agro and healers can defend themselves, that is much less stressful for a tank who can then just focus on a few problem mobs. Or maybe take some pressure off a healer or DPS who's getting thwacked hard. You know, tank stuff.
From what I've seen so far, it won't be possible for tanks to aggro all the mobs to himself in the traditional way. Groups will be in fights with easily 5-10 mobs a lot of times. Heck, even soloing you'll fight already 2-5 mobs most of the times.
Most of the common situations will be that the main tanking/attacking guy will take on the chief mob, while 2 others in the group are taking care of the rest of the mobs, often with the mobs hitting them back with maybe only the 4th team member not being attacked. The handling of those attacks and fights is also somewhat different in that the majority of specs will have some healing or cc option, and that the classes and specs are somewhat sturdier than average non-tank classes/specs in other MMO's.
So, a somewhat different group combat flow than traditional (hard) trinity mechanics.
As for the cross server LFD, I think it has already been said by others in this thread that next to its advantages it also has some significant negatives to it.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
They might add it later on in future patches and updates. I'd rather have focus on content than Cross-Server LFD. As for dual spec, that should be in from the beginning.
Rift was a huge FUBAR.... Impossible to even semi-balance it with its multiple soul tress, they do huge nerfs every patch, can't count the number of times i've logged on only to see that my soul tree points have been reset because of nerfs....
Bioware is making sure even the most friendly PvE tank build is competitive in PvP, so this should help with people playing tanks....
As for people not wanting to play tanks, well thats more of a issue of lack of leaders in the game, to many people rather play a DPS so they don't have to lead and can stand in the background and just pew pew with no stress..... This has nothing to do with classes as it has to do with people not wanting to take responsibility if the group wipes....
It's the same with Healers, there just as important as tanks and if they screw up they can cause the group to wipe, but there a little less stressful because they don't have to lead the group or know the level like the back of there hand so as not to pull to many mobs and wipe everyone....
So the lack of Tanks and Healers has nothing to do with classes but has everything to do with people not wanting responsibility in a group. DPS players are the "it's not our fault the group wipe" class of the game...
Doesn't help with DPS Monitors everyone wants to be the big dawg DPS'er in the group .... Tanks take all the responsibility but get none of the glory..... same with Healers...
They might add it later on in future patches and updates. I'd rather have focus on content than Cross-Server LFD. As for dual spec, that should be in from the beginning.
Edit: thanks Gauo
what is the particular need for duel spec, why just 2?
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
I'm actually kind of glad there's no cross server LFD. Seeing that the instant wow added it, the game turned into pretty much a lobby game, I don't want SWTOR to be that right from the get go.
Also, don't really care about duel spec. Now, cross classing, THAT would be awesome, but I don't see how that would work in this mmo.
From what I've seen so far, it won't be possible for tanks to aggro all the mobs to himself in the traditional way. Groups will be in fights with easily 5-10 mobs a lot of times. Heck, even soloing you'll fight already 2-5 mobs most of the times.
Most of the common situations will be that the main tanking/attacking guy will take on the chief mob, while 2 others in the group are taking care of the rest of the mobs, often with the mobs hitting them back with maybe only the 4th team member not being attacked. The handling of those attacks and fights is also somewhat different in that the majority of specs will have some healing or cc option, and that the classes and specs are somewhat sturdier than average non-tank classes/specs in other MMO's.
So, a somewhat different group combat flow than traditional (hard) trinity mechanics.
As for the cross server LFD, I think it has already been said by others in this thread that next to its advantages it also has some significant negatives to it.
Are there any videos that show groups or solo players going against many enemies at once? I don't recall seeing any and if you see the developer walkthroughs they usually follow the regular trinity approach to battle.
Are there any videos that show groups or solo players going against many enemies at once? I don't recall seeing any and if you see the developer walkthroughs they usually follow the regular trinity approach to battle.
Well, we can only discuss some stuff here, but even from the demo player reports there's clear talk about several enemies at the same time regularly while players are soloing, having them have to rely on cc and aoe skills to cope with them. As for groups, in some of the footage, presentation as well as gameplayer, you see that there's a horde of mobs attacking and that not all the hordes are drawn into main tank aggro, but instead that 1 player focuses on the 1 or 2 mobs like the chief mob, where the other players get attacked, often 2 players engaging the rest of the mobs while 1 player stays clear in cover or giving support.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
From what I've seen so far, it won't be possible for tanks to aggro all the mobs to himself in the traditional way. Groups will be in fights with easily 5-10 mobs a lot of times. Heck, even soloing you'll fight already 2-5 mobs most of the times.
Most of the common situations will be that the main tanking/attacking guy will take on the chief mob, while 2 others in the group are taking care of the rest of the mobs, often with the mobs hitting them back with maybe only the 4th team member not being attacked. The handling of those attacks and fights is also somewhat different in that the majority of specs will have some healing or cc option, and that the classes and specs are somewhat sturdier than average non-tank classes/specs in other MMO's.
So, a somewhat different group combat flow than traditional (hard) trinity mechanics.
As for the cross server LFD, I think it has already been said by others in this thread that next to its advantages it also has some significant negatives to it.
Are there any videos that show groups or solo players going against many enemies at once? I don't recall seeing any and if you see the developer walkthroughs they usually follow the regular trinity approach to battle.
Yes, there are many videos that show a single toon taking on 2 or more enemies at once. The first Dev walkthrough that showcased the Smuggler was one of them. Check out the videos on swtor.com and you'll see a bunch more.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
They dont need cross server LFG while the game is popular. That only becomes necessary when a game is dying or top-heavy.
Regardless if there's 100 or 1,000,000,000 we're looking at percentages here. No matter what game, it always seems like there's much higher % of dps over heals or tanks. If the game is super popular, ya.. there's going to be more tanks/heals, but there's also going to be that many more dps.
Utter rubbish; Some of us will be playing with friends to enjoy , what DPS you have will in no way impact my gameplay whatsoever. Killing pixels is no acheivement, killing them in style with friends is.
________________________________________________________ Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
Well first I would address the Dual-Spec, one of the main focus points of the game is that your choices have consequence good or bad, light or dark, or how youer you wanna say it so by allowing your character too freely switch back and forth seems to take away from this, I mean it would be like one day I work as a Lawyer and the next i would be a doctor. it just has no basis in a game where your descions drive the story.
Next the no cross server looking for group, Now this in and of itself is a very flawed device that works well in some occasions, Its flawed because it only matches level and in some cases approximate gear level, but as most skilled players know in some games gear is only half the battle if you don't know how to use it properly. Also the whole basis behind an MMORPG is not to fly solo if you want to enjoy the content as intended you need to make alliegences and work in as a TEAM to complete the encounters if you rely on PUGs (pick up groups) for all of your end game content you will most likely be a very aggravated person who still hasn't seen the content they want to yet. And a PUG is all you will get from an LFG nothing less and certainly not more.
Rules to live by in an MMO world to make friends and make people helpful toward you.
1. Be respectful of other people's time.
2. Be polite.
3. Don't spam chat channels with nonsense.
4. Don't hog loot, there will be plenty opportunites for more.
5. REMEMBER its only a game if it makes you mad its time to take a break.
I love you all time for another beer ;D
There are times when one must ask themselves is it my passion that truly frightens you? Or your own?
Regarding OP, I concur. Dual-spec is a near necessity when discussing endgame content and designated player roles. However, implimenting tanking into PvP sounds like it should work well (of course, depending on the dev's ability to do it properly).
I'm all about the story, but don't sacrifice tried and true MMORPG staples. Instead, learn from the good and bad from previous MMOs. Regardless of the WoW clone bitching (they're not even arguments, they're just whining), WoW is a solid game that people are just tired of and want something different. I say, capitalize on that and take what WoW has and build on it. I played WoW from 2005 to 2010; I think they had to have done something right.
Regarding OP, I concur. Dual-spec is a near necessity when discussing endgame content and designated player roles. However, implimenting tanking into PvP sounds like it should work well (of course, depending on the dev's ability to do it properly).
I'm all about the story, but don't sacrifice tried and true MMORPG staples. Instead, learn from the good and bad from previous MMOs. Regardless of the WoW clone bitching (they're not even arguments, they're just whining), WoW is a solid game that people are just tired of and want something different. I say, capitalize on that and take what WoW has and build on it. I played WoW from 2005 to 2010; I think they had to have done something right.
Thank you, at least put in Dual Spec, this is a generally universally accepted feature in MMOs, so why can't we at least have this feature in the game? Especially if players are expected to do both PvP and PvE at endgame.
Regarding OP, I concur. Dual-spec is a near necessity when discussing endgame content and designated player roles. However, implimenting tanking into PvP sounds like it should work well (of course, depending on the dev's ability to do it properly).
I'm all about the story, but don't sacrifice tried and true MMORPG staples. Instead, learn from the good and bad from previous MMOs. Regardless of the WoW clone bitching (they're not even arguments, they're just whining), WoW is a solid game that people are just tired of and want something different. I say, capitalize on that and take what WoW has and build on it. I played WoW from 2005 to 2010; I think they had to have done something right.
Thank you, at least put in Dual Spec, this is a generally universally accepted feature in MMOs, so why can't we at least have this feature in the game? Especially if players are expected to do both PvP and PvE at endgame.
The reason they don't want to have dual specs is because they don't want you playing both Advance Classes with the same character.
They have caved a bit already though. Allowing you to respec your Advance Class at lower levels. So it is possible with enough qq after launch that they might institute a dual spec.
Maybe instead of worrying about features that a game doesn't have we should wait until the game comes out to see if said features are actually necessary.
Personally, I kind of thought the WoW cross server system had more issues for DPS classes. You could sit 30 minutes to an hour waiting for a queue to pop while you were leveling up, and it could be just as bad at max level.
One of the things I see as a benefit to DPS in TOR is simply the companion system. Dont want to wait to find a tank? Okay, run with 3 other people and one tanking companion. No, it wont be as good as a person (might be better than some tanks I've seen) but instead of sitting and waiting, you've got a chance to be doing something. You probably cant do all the flashpoints, or the hardest ones, but it still allows a group to be doing something without a tank.
It's not a perfect system, but then what is? It is however better than most of the alternatives.
I admit to being a bit old fashioned. After all, I did start playing MMORPG's in 2002 with DAoC.
I don't like the idea of dual specs or even respecs, because I believe good players should be able to stand out. The only way good players can stand out in a MMORPG is by the choices they make while building their character. MMORPG combat is so easy that even a bad player will seem good once they've read the guides on how best to play their class. At least without respecs and dual specs, players will be stuck with their decisions and will have to learn how to play their class to the best of their ability using the choices they've made.
As for cross server dungeon LFG system, I believe it hurts the community. When a cross server LFG system is allowed, there is no consequence for being a bad player or an asshat. Now, I believe when a game becomes top heavy and an influx of new players has trickled off, a cross server LFG system actually benefits the game, because without it, new players won't be able to find groups for the flashpoints and other group content, but Bioware need not worry about that until the time comes.
I admit to being a bit old fashioned. After all, I did start playing MMORPG's in 2002 with DAoC.
I don't like the idea of dual specs or even respecs, because I believe good players should be able to stand out. The only way good players can stand out in a MMORPG is by the choices they make while building their character. MMORPG combat is so easy that even a bad player will seem good once they've read the guides on how best to play their class. At least without respecs and dual specs, players will be stuck with their decisions and will have to learn how to play their class to the best of their ability using the choices they've made.
As for cross server dungeon LFG system, I believe it hurts the community. When a cross server LFG system is allowed, there is no consequence for being a bad player or an asshat. Now, I believe when a game becomes top heavy and an influx of new players has trickled off, a cross server LFG system actually benefits the game, because without it, new players won't be able to find groups for the flashpoints and other group content, but Bioware need not worry about that until the time comes.
problem is, what happens when class mechanics are significantly changed and a sepc that was on top one day is now, say 20-30% less powerful than it was before? That is not a minor issue. People's options then are to either reroll, quit, or deal with being a hinderance where they were once an asset. Its not good for retention and player satisfaction. Unless, of course, you want to do away with specs entirely and have every person who players a certain class the same potential, with only their personal skill as the determining factor of their preformance.
No cross server lfd is fine in theroy once a game is released. But after a while, when the game matures, and everyone is at cap, its a benefit for those people leveling new characters and alts where they might not be a strong population of level appropriate people to do lower level content. I remember in WoW before the advent of lfd, the only way I could get a scarlet monestary run was to pay a lvl 60 to run me through, I would spam for hours trying to get one as a dps, and I was on one of the more populated pvp servers too. On a lower pop server these issues would be greatly magnified.
First of all I have the utmost confidence in Bioware as a developer, and I want SW:TOR to be a huge success, and any criticism I have about the game shouldn't be taken as mean-spirited as I hope for the best. That said I don't truly understand the direction they are going here with this game, and I tried looking up the info to no avail. Hopefully someone here can shed some light on what looks like to be a huge oversight from Bioware.
As far I as can tell the game is a full-on Holy Trinity based MMO, that means every group will need a tank, dps, and healer to function. Then they went ahead and made their game 4 group max instead of 5 groups, saying at the game works better this way. I have mixed feelings about this, mainly that now, ratio wise, for every 12 dps instead of needing 4 tanks and 4 healers, you're going to need a 6 tanks and 6 healers. That's a huge increase in required tanks/healers especially with no dual speccing or cross-server LFD. Now I know Bioware has contigencies in place, mainly they designed majority of their classes (75%?) to be able to spec into tank or healing roles if needed, and they also have a companion system to fill in any missing roles. Now I didn't want to bring Rift into this, as I believe also that Rift is a good game and Trion is doing what they can to make their game work, but the similiarities are there. Rift also have a very flexible class mechanic that allowed characters to spec into tanking or healing as neccessary, and it even had Quint-spec to really drive the point home that they wanted players to tank and heal. The Result? Still a huge lack of tanks and healers. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them play tanks/heals. DPS spent hours having find groups, and bleeded subs in the meantime, it wasn't 'til a whole 4 months later they decided to put in cross-server LFD, as the obvious solution.
Now for the companion system, I couldn't find any knowledge on it, but hopefully said player can control their companion like a pet class and thus utilize their abilities for pet tanking/healing mobs. And even if it is just AI control, I've seen some really good healing AI, so maybe well coordinated groups can get away with AI heals, but definitely not tanking. I honestly don't know how companions are going to work. Making them too weak means that they are worthless at endgame thus reinforcing the need for LFD and dual specing, or making them too strong and you will have players actively benching real life players over them so they won't have to split the loot.
I read up recently that Bioware caved in and made it possible for players to be able to respec their Advanced Class which is a smart move, and hopefully they will continue to be smart and implement other now standard trinity mmo based features necessarry for players to take this game seriously. Can anybody please explain the rational behind Bioware's MMO design decisions? And please don't tell me it's just to be "different", I'm not interested in hearing a "less wait and see aproach" excuse either. If your game is missing key features, don't launch the game until they are implemented.
I admit to being a bit old fashioned. After all, I did start playing MMORPG's in 2002 with DAoC.
I don't like the idea of dual specs or even respecs, because I believe good players should be able to stand out. The only way good players can stand out in a MMORPG is by the choices they make while building their character. MMORPG combat is so easy that even a bad player will seem good once they've read the guides on how best to play their class. At least without respecs and dual specs, players will be stuck with their decisions and will have to learn how to play their class to the best of their ability using the choices they've made.
As for cross server dungeon LFG system, I believe it hurts the community. When a cross server LFG system is allowed, there is no consequence for being a bad player or an asshat. Now, I believe when a game becomes top heavy and an influx of new players has trickled off, a cross server LFG system actually benefits the game, because without it, new players won't be able to find groups for the flashpoints and other group content, but Bioware need not worry about that until the time comes.
problem is, what happens when class mechanics are significantly changed and a sepc that was on top one day is now, say 20-30% less powerful than it was before? That is not a minor issue. People's options then are to either reroll, quit, or deal with being a hinderance where they were once an asset. Its not good for retention and player satisfaction. Unless, of course, you want to do away with specs entirely and have every person who players a certain class the same potential, with only their personal skill as the determining factor of their preformance.
No cross server lfd is fine in theroy once a game is released. But after a while, when the game matures, and everyone is at cap, its a benefit for those people leveling new characters and alts where they might not be a strong population of level appropriate people to do lower level content. I remember in WoW before the advent of lfd, the only way I could get a scarlet monestary run was to pay a lvl 60 to run me through, I would spam for hours trying to get one as a dps, and I was on one of the more populated pvp servers too. On a lower pop server these issues would be greatly magnified.
In DAoC, there were many classes, with 3 specs each. Each class and spec had their uses in a group. With that many classes and specs, class balance was an ongoing thing. Yet, people like myself didn't feel a need to respec just because our class was the focus of the next patch. We learned to play to our strengths. Coming from a game whose focus was RVR, I still could care less about class balance. The developers do the best they can, but in the end, there are so many variables to consider, so you just do the best you can playing the type of spec you enjoy. Good players know how to use whatever classes join their group, because they know the strengths and weaknesses of each class and know how to win regardless.
If a person is willing to respec out of a spec they enjoy playing, just because they were nerfed that patch, then they must not really enjoy that spec. If any class is nerfed more than they should, then I have faith that the developer will fix it the next time around. In the meantime, good players will still make the most out of that spec and their group members should know how to best use that spec.
You're rebuttal might be that a group leader will choose the best DPS class for the slot they are trying to fill, and that a nerfed spec will be passed over. Well I feel that the group leader is the problem here. It's the player that makes the class shine, not a 20% increase in power. Too many players care too much about maximizing class, group, and raid output, when they should instead be more worried about learning how to play with whatever combination of classes and specs are given to them in that particular group setup. A good player and leader knows how to use whatever combination to get the job done. I've done so in group PvE and PvP situations when there were over 15 classes, and over 40 different specs to choose from and only 8 slots to fill.
To summarize, playing with good people and people good at their classes is more important to me than choosing to maximize my group output concerning threat, dps, and healing. People need to switch their focus to just enjoying each others company and the content provided. The rest will work itself out.
Edit: Something to consider given many peoples desire to min/max everything is that when respecs and dual specs are allowed, it encourages those types to respec to the FOTM build instead of learning to play their class using their choices made to the best of their ability. A good player knows how to maximize his strengths while covering his weaknesses with abilities from classes that other people play.
Comments
Theorectically you would only need either a tank or a healer. You could use a companion to fill one of the other roles. Which should make getting a group together easier.
Most of the time DPS never plans to tank willingly, but sometimes it just happens, sometimes you get all the agro and then what? You die? Nope, in this game you can take it because you're tough, and you know what else? You don't even need to yell for heals, you can do it yourself! Whoa!
Just because characters are given the means to take care of themselves does not mean you will be forced to play a strict role in encounters, it means the opposite. If a DPS can take a bit of agro and healers can defend themselves, that is much less stressful for a tank who can then just focus on a few problem mobs. Or maybe take some pressure off a healer or DPS who's getting thwacked hard. You know, tank stuff.
From what I've seen so far, it won't be possible for tanks to aggro all the mobs to himself in the traditional way. Groups will be in fights with easily 5-10 mobs a lot of times. Heck, even soloing you'll fight already 2-5 mobs most of the times.
Most of the common situations will be that the main tanking/attacking guy will take on the chief mob, while 2 others in the group are taking care of the rest of the mobs, often with the mobs hitting them back with maybe only the 4th team member not being attacked. The handling of those attacks and fights is also somewhat different in that the majority of specs will have some healing or cc option, and that the classes and specs are somewhat sturdier than average non-tank classes/specs in other MMO's.
So, a somewhat different group combat flow than traditional (hard) trinity mechanics.
As for the cross server LFD, I think it has already been said by others in this thread that next to its advantages it also has some significant negatives to it.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Too much speculation..
This is not WoW
They might add it later on in future patches and updates. I'd rather have focus on content than Cross-Server LFD. As for dual spec, that should be in from the beginning.
Edit: thanks Gauo
Rift was a huge FUBAR.... Impossible to even semi-balance it with its multiple soul tress, they do huge nerfs every patch, can't count the number of times i've logged on only to see that my soul tree points have been reset because of nerfs....
Bioware is making sure even the most friendly PvE tank build is competitive in PvP, so this should help with people playing tanks....
As for people not wanting to play tanks, well thats more of a issue of lack of leaders in the game, to many people rather play a DPS so they don't have to lead and can stand in the background and just pew pew with no stress..... This has nothing to do with classes as it has to do with people not wanting to take responsibility if the group wipes....
It's the same with Healers, there just as important as tanks and if they screw up they can cause the group to wipe, but there a little less stressful because they don't have to lead the group or know the level like the back of there hand so as not to pull to many mobs and wipe everyone....
So the lack of Tanks and Healers has nothing to do with classes but has everything to do with people not wanting responsibility in a group. DPS players are the "it's not our fault the group wipe" class of the game...
Doesn't help with DPS Monitors everyone wants to be the big dawg DPS'er in the group .... Tanks take all the responsibility but get none of the glory..... same with Healers...
what is the particular need for duel spec, why just 2?
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
I'm actually kind of glad there's no cross server LFD. Seeing that the instant wow added it, the game turned into pretty much a lobby game, I don't want SWTOR to be that right from the get go.
Also, don't really care about duel spec. Now, cross classing, THAT would be awesome, but I don't see how that would work in this mmo.
Groovy.
Ahh people complain about clones and in the same breath begs for the same features to be repeated in future MMOs
Are there any videos that show groups or solo players going against many enemies at once? I don't recall seeing any and if you see the developer walkthroughs they usually follow the regular trinity approach to battle.
Well, we can only discuss some stuff here, but even from the demo player reports there's clear talk about several enemies at the same time regularly while players are soloing, having them have to rely on cc and aoe skills to cope with them. As for groups, in some of the footage, presentation as well as gameplayer, you see that there's a horde of mobs attacking and that not all the hordes are drawn into main tank aggro, but instead that 1 player focuses on the 1 or 2 mobs like the chief mob, where the other players get attacked, often 2 players engaging the rest of the mobs while 1 player stays clear in cover or giving support.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
WoW also has auction houses, banks, and mounts, so do those features make it a WoW clone as well?
Yes, there are many videos that show a single toon taking on 2 or more enemies at once. The first Dev walkthrough that showcased the Smuggler was one of them. Check out the videos on swtor.com and you'll see a bunch more.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
Utter rubbish; Some of us will be playing with friends to enjoy , what DPS you have will in no way impact my gameplay whatsoever. Killing pixels is no acheivement, killing them in style with friends is.
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Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
Well first I would address the Dual-Spec, one of the main focus points of the game is that your choices have consequence good or bad, light or dark, or how youer you wanna say it so by allowing your character too freely switch back and forth seems to take away from this, I mean it would be like one day I work as a Lawyer and the next i would be a doctor. it just has no basis in a game where your descions drive the story.
Next the no cross server looking for group, Now this in and of itself is a very flawed device that works well in some occasions, Its flawed because it only matches level and in some cases approximate gear level, but as most skilled players know in some games gear is only half the battle if you don't know how to use it properly. Also the whole basis behind an MMORPG is not to fly solo if you want to enjoy the content as intended you need to make alliegences and work in as a TEAM to complete the encounters if you rely on PUGs (pick up groups) for all of your end game content you will most likely be a very aggravated person who still hasn't seen the content they want to yet. And a PUG is all you will get from an LFG nothing less and certainly not more.
Rules to live by in an MMO world to make friends and make people helpful toward you.
1. Be respectful of other people's time.
2. Be polite.
3. Don't spam chat channels with nonsense.
4. Don't hog loot, there will be plenty opportunites for more.
5. REMEMBER its only a game if it makes you mad its time to take a break.
I love you all time for another beer ;D
There are times when one must ask themselves is it my passion that truly frightens you? Or your own?
If wow was the first one with all those things.......maybe
There are times when one must ask themselves is it my passion that truly frightens you? Or your own?
Regarding OP, I concur. Dual-spec is a near necessity when discussing endgame content and designated player roles. However, implimenting tanking into PvP sounds like it should work well (of course, depending on the dev's ability to do it properly).
I'm all about the story, but don't sacrifice tried and true MMORPG staples. Instead, learn from the good and bad from previous MMOs. Regardless of the WoW clone bitching (they're not even arguments, they're just whining), WoW is a solid game that people are just tired of and want something different. I say, capitalize on that and take what WoW has and build on it. I played WoW from 2005 to 2010; I think they had to have done something right.
Thank you, at least put in Dual Spec, this is a generally universally accepted feature in MMOs, so why can't we at least have this feature in the game? Especially if players are expected to do both PvP and PvE at endgame.
The reason they don't want to have dual specs is because they don't want you playing both Advance Classes with the same character.
They have caved a bit already though. Allowing you to respec your Advance Class at lower levels. So it is possible with enough qq after launch that they might institute a dual spec.
Maybe instead of worrying about features that a game doesn't have we should wait until the game comes out to see if said features are actually necessary.
Personally, I kind of thought the WoW cross server system had more issues for DPS classes. You could sit 30 minutes to an hour waiting for a queue to pop while you were leveling up, and it could be just as bad at max level.
One of the things I see as a benefit to DPS in TOR is simply the companion system. Dont want to wait to find a tank? Okay, run with 3 other people and one tanking companion. No, it wont be as good as a person (might be better than some tanks I've seen) but instead of sitting and waiting, you've got a chance to be doing something. You probably cant do all the flashpoints, or the hardest ones, but it still allows a group to be doing something without a tank.
It's not a perfect system, but then what is? It is however better than most of the alternatives.
I admit to being a bit old fashioned. After all, I did start playing MMORPG's in 2002 with DAoC.
I don't like the idea of dual specs or even respecs, because I believe good players should be able to stand out. The only way good players can stand out in a MMORPG is by the choices they make while building their character. MMORPG combat is so easy that even a bad player will seem good once they've read the guides on how best to play their class. At least without respecs and dual specs, players will be stuck with their decisions and will have to learn how to play their class to the best of their ability using the choices they've made.
As for cross server dungeon LFG system, I believe it hurts the community. When a cross server LFG system is allowed, there is no consequence for being a bad player or an asshat. Now, I believe when a game becomes top heavy and an influx of new players has trickled off, a cross server LFG system actually benefits the game, because without it, new players won't be able to find groups for the flashpoints and other group content, but Bioware need not worry about that until the time comes.
problem is, what happens when class mechanics are significantly changed and a sepc that was on top one day is now, say 20-30% less powerful than it was before? That is not a minor issue. People's options then are to either reroll, quit, or deal with being a hinderance where they were once an asset. Its not good for retention and player satisfaction. Unless, of course, you want to do away with specs entirely and have every person who players a certain class the same potential, with only their personal skill as the determining factor of their preformance.
No cross server lfd is fine in theroy once a game is released. But after a while, when the game matures, and everyone is at cap, its a benefit for those people leveling new characters and alts where they might not be a strong population of level appropriate people to do lower level content. I remember in WoW before the advent of lfd, the only way I could get a scarlet monestary run was to pay a lvl 60 to run me through, I would spam for hours trying to get one as a dps, and I was on one of the more populated pvp servers too. On a lower pop server these issues would be greatly magnified.
You said it yourself.
In DAoC, there were many classes, with 3 specs each. Each class and spec had their uses in a group. With that many classes and specs, class balance was an ongoing thing. Yet, people like myself didn't feel a need to respec just because our class was the focus of the next patch. We learned to play to our strengths. Coming from a game whose focus was RVR, I still could care less about class balance. The developers do the best they can, but in the end, there are so many variables to consider, so you just do the best you can playing the type of spec you enjoy. Good players know how to use whatever classes join their group, because they know the strengths and weaknesses of each class and know how to win regardless.
If a person is willing to respec out of a spec they enjoy playing, just because they were nerfed that patch, then they must not really enjoy that spec. If any class is nerfed more than they should, then I have faith that the developer will fix it the next time around. In the meantime, good players will still make the most out of that spec and their group members should know how to best use that spec.
You're rebuttal might be that a group leader will choose the best DPS class for the slot they are trying to fill, and that a nerfed spec will be passed over. Well I feel that the group leader is the problem here. It's the player that makes the class shine, not a 20% increase in power. Too many players care too much about maximizing class, group, and raid output, when they should instead be more worried about learning how to play with whatever combination of classes and specs are given to them in that particular group setup. A good player and leader knows how to use whatever combination to get the job done. I've done so in group PvE and PvP situations when there were over 15 classes, and over 40 different specs to choose from and only 8 slots to fill.
To summarize, playing with good people and people good at their classes is more important to me than choosing to maximize my group output concerning threat, dps, and healing. People need to switch their focus to just enjoying each others company and the content provided. The rest will work itself out.
Edit: Something to consider given many peoples desire to min/max everything is that when respecs and dual specs are allowed, it encourages those types to respec to the FOTM build instead of learning to play their class using their choices made to the best of their ability. A good player knows how to maximize his strengths while covering his weaknesses with abilities from classes that other people play.