Yes. You are expecting SWG/Vanguard/Planetside/Matrix to get the same amount of publisher support/investment as SWG/EQ2 because they have the same monthly sub fee. That is unreasonable because it leaves out the other half of the money equation, number of subscribers. As someone else pointed out, SOE did invest in these games and it didn't attract any more subscribers. So they'd be crazy to double down.
That's just the way the mmo world works. MMO's have one chance at release to retain subscribers, it doesn't matter what a company does to fix things 3-6 months later. I happen to think that is unfair as I think you do but it doesn't change the facts.
Vanguard and The Matrix were indeed lucky to have SOE acquire them and keep them alive as long as they did (are still with Vanguard).
You have this completely twisted around. If a company wants to charge the highest rates in their respective industry then they better be ready to compete for it. MMOs are not entitled to $15 a month.
If SOE wants $15 a month for Vanguard, SWG or other mmos they should be able to offer competitive quality and support for the product. Otherwise people will take their money and spend it on something else, which they have.
Having to few customers isn't a plausible excuse to offer less and demand as much as the next company. This is basic business.
If their product is inferior and they are losing customers I wonder what the reasonable solution to that problem is?
Improve the quality of the product
Lower the price
Explain that they don't have enough customers to offer $15 worth of support that their competition does
The mentality you are pushing is exactly the reason why developers think they can rush out garbage and feel entitled to charging the same subscription fee that the best games in the market charge. That we should just somehow be happy that failed games are kept alive, left unsupported and charging the highest rates in the industry.
Again, I just do not see anything worthy of praise or a message that I think developers should be given.
I'm pointing out that picking up a failed project and making no changes will simply result in continued failure. That is just common sense.
Also, that buying a bankrupt game that has already lost most of its players and in danger of losing the rest without increased investment would only continue the decline. Seems pretty simple enough would you agree? I'm just pointing out what happened.
Yes, SoE made no changes. they added no raid content, fixed no bugs, and fixed no stability issues. not one, single change.
Oh wait, thats Daffidill fantasy land that it went down like that. In reality, SoE put a lot of effort into fixing up Vanguard and fixed the bugs people wanted fix, made the game more stable like people wanted, and added the endgame content people asked for.
But the people didnt come back. So why should SoE continue to pump money into a game that was showing no return for their investment? You act like they didnt try which is not the truth
So they have shown they dont give developmental support to games with 10k users or less. 25k users like SWG? They got minimal support but they at least got something. 100k+ users? they get more developmental support then some companies give games with 12 million users.
SOE has gotten really bad about nickel and diming their players in my opinion. Everytime I play one of their games I feel violated. They really must be having a rough time keeping themselves in the black with their rape and pillage of their players. Other game companies have evolved and altered their prices based on quality. Hell, FFXIV completely stopped charging people when the community outraged that the game wasn't finished... they didn't keep charging in spite of the crap they dished out. SOE takes the change off your dresser when you're not looking.
Shady. Smedley needs to be fired - he mismanages the company and makes players sad pandas.
Yes. You are expecting SWG/Vanguard/Planetside/Matrix to get the same amount of publisher support/investment as SWG/EQ2 because they have the same monthly sub fee. That is unreasonable because it leaves out the other half of the money equation, number of subscribers. As someone else pointed out, SOE did invest in these games and it didn't attract any more subscribers. So they'd be crazy to double down.
That's just the way the mmo world works. MMO's have one chance at release to retain subscribers, it doesn't matter what a company does to fix things 3-6 months later. I happen to think that is unfair as I think you do but it doesn't change the facts.
Vanguard and The Matrix were indeed lucky to have SOE acquire them and keep them alive as long as they did (are still with Vanguard).
You have this completely twisted around. If a company wants to charge the highest rates in their respective industry then they better be ready to compete for it. MMOs are not entitled to $15 a month.
If SOE wants $15 a month for Vanguard, SWG or other mmos they should be able to offer competitive quality and support for the product. Otherwise people will take their money and spend it on something else, which they have.
Having to few customers isn't a plausible excuse to offer less and demand as much as the next company. This is basic business.
If their product is inferior and they are losing customers I wonder what the reasonable solution to that problem is?
Improve the quality of the product
Lower the price
Explain that they don't have enough customers to offer $15 worth of support that their competition does
The mentality you are pushing is exactly the reason why developers think they can rush out garbage and feel entitled to charging the same subscription fee that the best games in the market charge. That we should just somehow be happy that failed games are kept alive, left unsupported and charging the highest rates in the industry.
Again, I just do not see anything worthy of praise or a message that I think developers should be given.
What does any of that have to do with SOE shutting down Galaxies? They didn't feel it was worth their time or money to negotiate a new license with Lucas Arts. Plain and Simple.
You *really* want to say SoE didnt put effort in to fix vanguard? You realize the horrendous shape that the game was in at the time? Atrocious stability, bugged to hell, and no endgame content. Those were the three major flaws. SoE did infact address all 3.
But their investment provided no signs AT ALL that people would come back. because they didnt, even when what they asked for was done.
Yes, the players failed Vanguard. If Vanguard had shown positive growth theres a strong chance SoE would have continued the devleopment they planned. But it didnt. People just talk on sites like this about how great a game it is now blah blah blah, but no one plays it. Or you could just say maybe Vanguard wasnt very good to begin with, but then that isnt SoEs fault either. A polished turd is still a turd.
Now people seem to think SoE should do charity work for those 10,000 (if that, most likely quite a bit lower) that still play it.
Vanguard had roughly 40k subs when SOE bought it. That isn't enough subscribers to even make the promises that SOE did in the first place. It was completely misleading and people called them out on it.
When exactly do you think that SOE "addressed" all those problems? The way you speak it seems like you think that it occured at some brisk reasonable pace and players were leaving despite so much positive great work being done on the game. Four years later and maybe the sum of Vanguards changes has resulted in a game that is stable and complete enough to release, but it most certainly isn't something that players are at fault for not hanging around paying $15 a month to get to.
Same thing happened to SWG and the very reason this thread exists.
Yes. You are expecting SWG/Vanguard/Planetside/Matrix to get the same amount of publisher support/investment as SWG/EQ2 because they have the same monthly sub fee. That is unreasonable because it leaves out the other half of the money equation, number of subscribers. As someone else pointed out, SOE did invest in these games and it didn't attract any more subscribers. So they'd be crazy to double down.
That's just the way the mmo world works. MMO's have one chance at release to retain subscribers, it doesn't matter what a company does to fix things 3-6 months later. I happen to think that is unfair as I think you do but it doesn't change the facts.
Vanguard and The Matrix were indeed lucky to have SOE acquire them and keep them alive as long as they did (are still with Vanguard).
You have this completely twisted around. If a company wants to charge the highest rates in their respective industry then they better be ready to compete for it. MMOs are not entitled to $15 a month.
If SOE wants $15 a month for Vanguard, SWG or other mmos they should be able to offer competitive quality and support for the product. Otherwise people will take their money and spend it on something else, which they have.
Having to few customers isn't a plausible excuse to offer less and demand as much as the next company. This is basic business.
If their product is inferior and they are losing customers I wonder what the reasonable solution to that problem is?
Improve the quality of the product
Lower the price
Explain that they don't have enough customers to offer $15 worth of support that their competition does
The mentality you are pushing is exactly the reason why developers think they can rush out garbage and feel entitled to charging the same subscription fee that the best games in the market charge. That we should just somehow be happy that failed games are kept alive, left unsupported and charging the highest rates in the industry.
Again, I just do not see anything worthy of praise or a message that I think developers should be given.
or
4. close the game because sub fees dont cover the server cost plus customer service fees.
SoE is a company that has shown that they DO support their games. When Planetside had subs they got content. When SWG ahd subs they got content. When EQOA had subs they got content.
Its not that EQ and EQ2 get all the updats because they are the flagship. its because they are the games people play
Listen. This is how it is. First off, Star Wars Galaxes is shutting down. You will never see it again. Its not going free to play, it's not going open source, no matter how much you want these things.
The truth of the matter is that theres only like two people in the world who care about the fate of this game. You, and this girl.
This game died the moment the NGE went in. I never even played it pre-NGE, and tried it one time post-NGE a few years ago. It's a god awful, atrocious game. If you and that girl want RP, just go play a MUD based on Star Wars. Theres 800 of them out there. Trust me, SWTOR is going to be soooo much better than this piece of garbage game. You should be happy that SOE will no longer have control of Star Wars IP.
I just don't understand why people think making threads like this will do anything. It's absurd.
If a company wants to charge the highest rates in their respective industry then they better be ready to compete for it. MMOs are not entitled to $15 a month.
What does any of that have to do with SOE shutting down Galaxies? They didn't feel it was worth their time or money to negotiate a new license with Lucas Arts. Plain and Simple.
How does this not apply to SWG?
SWG not being worthwhile to renew the contract is the result of what is being discussed, not the cause.
You have this completely twisted around. If a company wants to charge the highest rates in their respective industry then they better be ready to compete for it. MMOs are not entitled to $15 a month.
If SOE wants $15 a month for Vanguard, SWG or other mmos they should be able to offer competitive quality and support for the product. Otherwise people will take their money and spend it on something else, which they have.
Having to few customers isn't a plausible excuse to offer less and demand as much as the next company. This is basic business.
If their product is inferior and they are losing customers I wonder what the reasonable solution to that problem is?
Improve the quality of the product
Lower the price
Explain that they don't have enough customers to offer $15 worth of support that their competition does
The mentality you are pushing is exactly the reason why developers think they can rush out garbage and feel entitled to charging the same subscription fee that the best games in the market charge. That we should just somehow be happy that failed games are kept alive, left unsupported and charging the highest rates in the industry.
Again, I just do not see anything worthy of praise or a message that I think developers should be given.
Yeah, that would have been the right choice a few years ago but it is far too late by now and the only option is cutting their losses.
With EQ2 they do give about the same worth for the monthly fees as most other companies but SWG and VG have been understaffed for years. In SWGs case is it Lucas art that pulls the plug however and it wouldm't be worth the job to revamp the game into a general sci-fi game.
Vanguard can still be saved, but it would demand a revamp of thhe game and a re-release under a different name, that way and with suport they could actually get enough players to make it worth. To me it looks like they plan to kill VG as well when EQ3 releases.
SWG have been dying for years until LA pulled the plug when TOR releases. It had so few players that I don't think Smed cared much enough to even complain a little.
You *really* want to say SoE didnt put effort in to fix vanguard? You realize the horrendous shape that the game was in at the time? Atrocious stability, bugged to hell, and no endgame content. Those were the three major flaws. SoE did infact address all 3.
But their investment provided no signs AT ALL that people would come back. because they didnt, even when what they asked for was done.
Yes, the players failed Vanguard. If Vanguard had shown positive growth theres a strong chance SoE would have continued the devleopment they planned. But it didnt. People just talk on sites like this about how great a game it is now blah blah blah, but no one plays it. Or you could just say maybe Vanguard wasnt very good to begin with, but then that isnt SoEs fault either. A polished turd is still a turd.
Now people seem to think SoE should do charity work for those 10,000 (if that, most likely quite a bit lower) that still play it.
Vanguard had roughly 40k subs when SOE bought it. That isn't enough subscribers to even make the promises that SOE did in the first place. It was completely misleading and people called them out on it.
When exactly do you think that SOE "addressed" all those problems? The way you speak it seems like you think that it occured at some brisk reasonable pace and players were leaving despite so much positive great work being done on the game. Four years later and maybe the sum of Vanguards changes has resulted in a game that is stable and complete enough to release, but it most certainly isn't something that players are at fault for not hanging around paying $15 a month to get to.
Same thing happened to SWG and the very reason this thread exists.
They made the promises because they trusted that people would come back. And yes, they did clean it up at a reaosnable pace. Maybe you dont know this, but Vanguard was a complete disaster.
All told it was about 1.5 years from when they acquired it to where it is today, but it was spread over that time. Yes, that is a pretty brisk pace considering what they had to work with.
4. close the game because sub fees dont cover the server cost plus customer service fees.
SoE is a company that has shown that they DO support their games. When Planetside had subs they got content. When SWG ahd subs they got content. When EQOA had subs they got content.
Its not that EQ and EQ2 get all the updats because they are the flagship. its because they are the games people play
So at what point is it ok for a company to stop supporting their mmo, but continue to charge the same rates? Also how long is it acceptable for that to continue?
Does 5,000 people quitting somehow change the amount of money you pay for the game? Does it change the amount of support you will get from another companies game for the same amount of money? When an mmo stops becoming a work in progress, what is really left to justify the premium fees?
I do understand companies have bottom lines, but that doesn't mean it is an acceptable practice or something players are at fault for not supporting, let alone getting down on their knees and thanking the companies for doing such good work.
If a company wants to charge the highest rates in their respective industry then they better be ready to compete for it. MMOs are not entitled to $15 a month.
What does any of that have to do with SOE shutting down Galaxies? They didn't feel it was worth their time or money to negotiate a new license with Lucas Arts. Plain and Simple.
How does this not apply to SWG?
SWG not being worthwhile to renew the contract is the result of what is being discussed, not the cause.
Look, I'm a die-hard SOE hater because of the whole CU/NGE thing from years ago. Saying that, even I have to admit that SWG of today is much better today than the 34 professions from pre-NGE. Balancing that many classes all with a variety of different builds was a disaster that not even team triple the size of the SWG staff could have handled. SOE is offereing NINE games for $19.95 a monthor any of their games for $15 a month or you can play a varient of their games in their stand alone F2P model. SW Clones and Freerealms are doing HUGE business for SOE. Sure, they could improve more but they have come a long ways. You have to be honest here because like it or not, SOE is leading the way in options for it's customers and how they choose to pay for their games.
They made the promises because they trusted that people would come back. And yes, they did clean it up at a reaosnable pace. Maybe you dont know this, but Vanguard was a complete disaster.
All told it was about 1.5 years from when they acquired it to where it is today, but it was spread over that time. Yes, that is a pretty brisk pace considering what they had to work with.
1.5 years is a reasonable time frame for a failed game to turn around and expect players to pay during that time?
How did SOE "trust" players to come back when they are not promising to come back at all? People were leaving very bitter and being very vocal about their distrust of SOE... many even before SOE bought the game.
SOE was never promised that players would return, ever. Just like the NGE, it was 100% their responsibility to deliver something that would be good enough for players to want to return to. The burden was on SOE to earn back the trust and patronage of the people who felt cheated and sold a broken game.
1.5 years later and those former players were already in another mmo and most likely also enjoying the first expansion pack for that game as well. Meanwhile 2 year old Vanguard can finally say it has a raid and stability, but has no chance of ever seeing an expansion and people are supposed to flock back?. I'm still not sure why players are being held accountable for not returning to such a problem filled game. Be it Vanguard or SWG/NGE.
LucasArts threw money at SOE to get out of the contract early I'm sure... SOE is like the black widow of game publishing and distribution... get in bed with them, it's fun for a bit and then, they kill you and suck the lifeblood out of you.
They made the promises because they trusted that people would come back. And yes, they did clean it up at a reaosnable pace. Maybe you dont know this, but Vanguard was a complete disaster.
All told it was about 1.5 years from when they acquired it to where it is today, but it was spread over that time. Yes, that is a pretty brisk pace considering what they had to work with.
1.5 years is a reasonable time frame for a failed game to turn around and expect players to pay during that time?
How did SOE "trust" players to come back when they are not promising to come back at all? People were leaving very bitter and being very vocal about their distrust of SOE... many even before SOE bought the game.
SOE was never promised that players would return, ever. Just like the NGE, it was 100% their responsibility to deliver something that would be good enough for players to want to return to. The burden was on SOE to earn back the trust and patronage of the people who felt cheated and sold a broken game.
1.5 years later and those former players were already in another mmo and most likely also enjoying the first expansion pack for that game as well. Meanwhile 2 year old Vanguard can finally say it has a raid and stability, but has no chance of ever seeing an expansion and people are supposed to flock back?. I'm still not sure why players are being held accountable for not returning to such a problem filled game. Be it Vanguard or SWG/NGE.
[Mod Edit]
Agreed. I went to V:SOH a long time ago to follow Sigil and their team. When they sold out to SOE, I was done with the game. I still resent SOE because of the CU/NGE of SWG. Saying that, I did go back and look at V:SOH for a month and I have to admit that SOE did put a lot of money and effort to make MAJOR improvements to the game. However, I still refuse to give SOE my money and as such, quit after the free month of a 99 cent Gamestop bargin bin buy was over.
Look, I'm a die-hard SOE hater because of the whole CU/NGE thing from years ago. Saying that, even I have to admit that SWG of today is much better today than the 34 professions from pre-NGE. Balancing that many classes all with a variety of different builds was a disaster that not even team triple the size of the SWG staff could have handled. SOE is offereing NINE games for $19.95 a monthor any of their games for $15 a month or you can play a varient of their games in their stand alone F2P model. SW Clones and Freerealms are doing HUGE business for SOE. Sure, they could improve more but they have come a long ways. You have to be honest here because like it or not, SOE is leading the way in options for it's customers and how they choose to pay for their games.
This isn't about what version of SWG was better and I completely agree that the original version of the game was a train wreck. I think the overall product would be much better if the last 7 years spent on NGE and the combat upgrade were instead focused on fixing the original game. Even if that meant cutting down the professions or whatever.
SOE might be leading the way with payment options, but notice no one seems to be following? All the meddling around with revenue streams hasn't really produced things that most companies are following. Most of it has come off as more negative nickle and diming of their customers and driving them away than is has done to help advance the genre. Honestly SOE is still struggling with the F2P concept. Free Realms switched to a subscription only model and EQ2X isn't exactly a booming success with its 1 server.
I don't think those games are doing the huge business you think they are. Huge successes are usually not followed by consecutive massive layoffs.
Vanguard can still be saved, but it would demand a revamp of thhe game and a re-release under a different name, that way and with suport they could actually get enough players to make it worth. To me it looks like they plan to kill VG as well when EQ3 releases.
But then it wouldnt be Vanguard. Vanguard as it is (not NGE'd just like they said they wouldnt do) can not be saved.
It has die hard supporters, but the fact is that most people that try it dont like it enough to play it for long.
Its a shame that the world they created has gone to waste though. It needed some more detail and life, but the dungeons were cool and the size of the world was impressive.
I don't think those games are doing the huge business you think they are. Huge successes are usually not followed by consecutive massive layoffs.
You are right about this. Problem is that SoE spread itself to thin. It should stick to EQ franchise and Planetside. Dont worry about acquiring other projects, just stick to what you do well.
If they do make an additional project then go for the one thing that can make your company stand out again: a sandbox. Dont expect millions, but if it made a solid sandbox based off the SWG class structure (not the setting) the company could once more be amongst the leaders.
I don't think those games are doing the huge business you think they are. Huge successes are usually not followed by consecutive massive layoffs.
You are right about this. Problem is that SoE spread itself to thin. It should stick to EQ franchise and Planetside. Dont worry about acquiring other projects, just stick to what you do well.
If they do make an additional project then go for the one thing that can make your company stand out again: a sandbox. Dont expect millions, but if it made a solid sandbox based off the SWG class structure (not the setting) the company could once more be amongst the leaders.
I would also say to avoid working with 3rd party licenses as those have not worked out very well for SOE.
While I think a sandbox game would make many people happy, the truth is that they are difficult to make and take a special kind of developer (the person not a company) to create. Raph Koster has that kind of background and vision, but I really doubt SOE has anyone like that. That isn't a criticism, because I don't think there are many who can do a proper sandbox game.
Stick to EQ, Planetside and other creations from their own in house development. The Agency was probably the right way to go. A spy themed mmo sounded like it could be really fun.
Ask yourself why people did not return to Vanguard? The trial area is constantly filled with people testing the game, so why didn't they come back after experiencing the things soe fixed? Answer that and you will understand. Instead of making up excuses like "people didn't play it for whatever reasons". Those "whatever" reasons are a pretty damn important thing to gloss over in your zest to blame players for the failure of an already failed game.
You are saying that Vanguard suffered ebcause SoE failed and didnt work hard to improve the game. But they did work hard to improve the game and did so signficantly. But people do not play it, despite a lot of people saying at launch 'this game has potential but im not paying for a beta', 'fix the performance', 'wheres the end game content'...well those major complaints were all answered.
This is not because of lack of effort from SoE. This is because they promised not to change the core of the game and have lived up to that promise. They did what the players wanted. Perhaps the game just wasnt that good to begin with?
So I dont blame the players for not playing the game as it is, but they did give SoE the impression that they loved the core of Vanguard and that it was worth investing in. And this turned out to not be the case.
I would also say to avoid working with 3rd party licenses as those have not worked out very well for SOE.
While I think a sandbox game would make many people happy, the truth is that they are difficult to make and take a special kind of developer (the person not a company) to create. Raph Koster has that kind of background and vision, but I really doubt SOE has anyone like that. That isn't a criticism, because I don't think there are many who can do a proper sandbox game.
Stick to EQ, Planetside and other creations from their own in house development. The Agency was probably the right way to go. A spy themed mmo sounded like it could be really fun.
Yeah, enough with third party licenses. They work best when they have freedom.
And yes it is highly doubtful anyone at SoE has the vision that Raph has. But that doesnt mean someone cant be hired. Brad McQuaid wasnt in house until Smedley hired him for Everquest. And this is also a good lesson. Dont go for the big MMO developer names. MCQuaid sure sucked his second time around. Get someone fresh and hungry. Get the next big thing.
While making merely a good game (Everquest2) wont change your company image, making a great game will.
You are saying that Vanguard suffered ebcause SoE failed and didnt work hard to improve the game. But they did work hard to improve the game and did so signficantly. But people do not play it, despite a lot of people saying at launch 'this game has potential but im not paying for a beta', 'fix the performance', 'wheres the end game content'...well those major complaints were all answered.
This is not because of lack of effort from SoE. This is because they promised not to change the core of the game and have lived up to that promise. They did what the players wanted. Perhaps the game just wasnt that good to begin with?
So I dont blame the players for not playing the game as it is, but they did give SoE the impression that they loved the core of Vanguard and that it was worth investing in. And this turned out to not be the case.
The core of vanguard did have potential, but that can be said about any of the mountain of failed mmos that have been released. Hell SWG has massive potential even in the current state, but look what is happening to it.
Vanguard has potential. SOE tried to fix the game and make that potential a reality. You say players said they wanted to come back when the game was all fixed. Players didn't come back.... Guess why?
Same situation for SWG.
Also, this might sound crazy, but it would be interesting to see Brad actually team up with SOE again to work on an mmo. Brad obviously has vision for gameplay, but he can't really run a business or be left in complete charge of operations. SOE is in enough trouble that they might be desperate enough to give Brad another chance. It isn't like they have developed quality leadership from within their ranks or top flight developers are beating down their doors.
If SOE could pocket their greed for a while that might just work.
I want to point something out. Yes, SWG had lost many many players but it had a core dedicated player base. Starsider was very active prior to the closing annoucement. No it wasn't Pre-NGE levels but it was a steady income to LA & SOE with the minimal support the game got. It didn't generate positive press for the brand but had reached a point that didn't create negative press for the few that discovered it. In other words, it made enough to keep the servers running. I believe Lucas Arts intended to keep SWG running while TOR launched as they know there would be folks that wouldn't go for the new play style.
IMHO, I think EA approached LA and said kill SWG. We what its core players. EA is known for its hate of direct compition. Based on the LA/SOE contract, all LA had to do was go up on the Licenes a few thousand each. making SWG then cost prohibitive. The reasoning for both companies: "Look, TOR is coming out very soon and will drop SWG sub below operation cost. Lets just end it." This allowed Smedley to state it was a "mutal" decision.
SOE dosen't close game as long as one person still logs in. They tend to playcate to there core dedicated players and think they are fine. In truth, today, they are not doing well. With DCUO's failure, so went the Agancy. They realized a niche market like that just wasn't going to do well on multi platform. Since DCUO is more stable (in subs) on the PS3, they will probably shift furture invesments that way. ...just my opionion.
First, Smedley has already stated that SOE didn't even try to negotiate an extension for the swg license. If they didn't even try to extend the game, then I don't see why LA would need to try to force the game closed. SOE seemed pretty set on letting the game come to an end. I don't really think Lucas Arts was ever worried about SWG being some competition to SWTOR (especially since they would be making 2 sub fees from some people).
Closing SWG makes sense in a lot of ways. For one it finally puts an end to the drama that swg has become. As long as swg was running it would be something that people could actively point to.
On top of that SOE is in the middle of a serious money problem and cutting huge chunks of staff for the last 3 years. Return on investment for 1 swg employee is going to be much less than someone working on EQ. Perhaps a bit overly simplified, but there is truth there and SOE is more than likely heading towards more layoffs as their overall situation doesn't seem to be improving.
SOE recently sold off one of their facebook games, closed another facebook game, cancelled the agency as well as closing SWG/Matrix. SOE is no longer a company that doesn't close games.
Honestly, what does SOE gain from keeping SWG running?
Smedley sure didn't even try to get the license after his agreement with LA. He said as much about that conversation in the interview. Nothing I stated deviates from what you said there. Remember its really just my opinion on the forces in action. Smedley has also said in interview about the developement of DCUO that working with DC Comic and/or Time Warner had been a very positive experiance compared to other IP holders. That was a ovious jab at the poor relationship garnered with Lucas Arts. Could that statment be directed at Time Warner for the Matrix? I don't think so. So its no secret Smedley was fustrated with Lucas Arts on SWG. But business is business and you suck it up and move forward.
My favorite reason to close SWG thus far is one of mistake. Stated in this thread, LA and/or EA might have feared that the Millions of perspective fans doing a search for a "Star Wars MMO" might have found SWG and chose to play that instead of TOR. It makes sense that casual players might make that mistake. EA sure couldn't let that happen. So closing SWG just before TOR launches will help channel those poor unknowing millions to the new money pot.
I was at Fan Faire and discussed with one of the SWG senators his view of SOE's stability. Fan Faire is a testament to the companies outlook. It was quite thin compared to Faires past. We both felt the company is doing real poor in light of its most recent failures. If Planetside 2 fails, then it maybe the end for SOE. Oh, and this year Vanguard had NO precense at all on the floor. As to the Facebook games, you need to read into that situation a little more. Facebook has cut deals with select companies for its games. Sony is not one of those.
To your question: SOE would gain the revenue from those still playing SWG or maintaining subs with SWG while playing TOR. Keeping SWG open benefited SOE and LA while TOR is not the only Star Wars MMO. Closing SWG benefits EA/Bioware/LA while those who want SWG get the BIRD (or flightless bird).
I know that SOE really burned you and your friends with the NGE. I know that SOE lies. I know SOE has made mistakes and straight out violation of player trust. Its well documented whether its in development cycle, managment or marketing. And as much as the warmth of your SOE hate comforts you, LA was there approving everything that went into SWG from the fuzz on Valentine Ewok nuts to alienating the vet core base in favor of WOW like sub numbers. Some of the original Lucas Arts developers (and some SOE one) are making TOR. When TOR launches, I think it will underscore what was desired from Lucas Arts in a Star Wars MMO. SOE failed to make it where Bioware might get it but in the end ...who ya' going to hate?
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You have this completely twisted around. If a company wants to charge the highest rates in their respective industry then they better be ready to compete for it. MMOs are not entitled to $15 a month.
If SOE wants $15 a month for Vanguard, SWG or other mmos they should be able to offer competitive quality and support for the product. Otherwise people will take their money and spend it on something else, which they have.
Having to few customers isn't a plausible excuse to offer less and demand as much as the next company. This is basic business.
If their product is inferior and they are losing customers I wonder what the reasonable solution to that problem is?
Improve the quality of the product
Lower the price
Explain that they don't have enough customers to offer $15 worth of support that their competition does
The mentality you are pushing is exactly the reason why developers think they can rush out garbage and feel entitled to charging the same subscription fee that the best games in the market charge. That we should just somehow be happy that failed games are kept alive, left unsupported and charging the highest rates in the industry.
Again, I just do not see anything worthy of praise or a message that I think developers should be given.
Yes, SoE made no changes. they added no raid content, fixed no bugs, and fixed no stability issues. not one, single change.
Oh wait, thats Daffidill fantasy land that it went down like that. In reality, SoE put a lot of effort into fixing up Vanguard and fixed the bugs people wanted fix, made the game more stable like people wanted, and added the endgame content people asked for.
But the people didnt come back. So why should SoE continue to pump money into a game that was showing no return for their investment? You act like they didnt try which is not the truth
So they have shown they dont give developmental support to games with 10k users or less. 25k users like SWG? They got minimal support but they at least got something. 100k+ users? they get more developmental support then some companies give games with 12 million users.
SOE has gotten really bad about nickel and diming their players in my opinion. Everytime I play one of their games I feel violated. They really must be having a rough time keeping themselves in the black with their rape and pillage of their players. Other game companies have evolved and altered their prices based on quality. Hell, FFXIV completely stopped charging people when the community outraged that the game wasn't finished... they didn't keep charging in spite of the crap they dished out. SOE takes the change off your dresser when you're not looking.
Shady. Smedley needs to be fired - he mismanages the company and makes players sad pandas.
No bitchers.
What does any of that have to do with SOE shutting down Galaxies? They didn't feel it was worth their time or money to negotiate a new license with Lucas Arts. Plain and Simple.
Power to the Sheeple
Vanguard had roughly 40k subs when SOE bought it. That isn't enough subscribers to even make the promises that SOE did in the first place. It was completely misleading and people called them out on it.
When exactly do you think that SOE "addressed" all those problems? The way you speak it seems like you think that it occured at some brisk reasonable pace and players were leaving despite so much positive great work being done on the game. Four years later and maybe the sum of Vanguards changes has resulted in a game that is stable and complete enough to release, but it most certainly isn't something that players are at fault for not hanging around paying $15 a month to get to.
Same thing happened to SWG and the very reason this thread exists.
or
4. close the game because sub fees dont cover the server cost plus customer service fees.
SoE is a company that has shown that they DO support their games. When Planetside had subs they got content. When SWG ahd subs they got content. When EQOA had subs they got content.
Its not that EQ and EQ2 get all the updats because they are the flagship. its because they are the games people play
Listen. This is how it is. First off, Star Wars Galaxes is shutting down. You will never see it again. Its not going free to play, it's not going open source, no matter how much you want these things.
The truth of the matter is that theres only like two people in the world who care about the fate of this game. You, and this girl.
This game died the moment the NGE went in. I never even played it pre-NGE, and tried it one time post-NGE a few years ago. It's a god awful, atrocious game. If you and that girl want RP, just go play a MUD based on Star Wars. Theres 800 of them out there. Trust me, SWTOR is going to be soooo much better than this piece of garbage game. You should be happy that SOE will no longer have control of Star Wars IP.
I just don't understand why people think making threads like this will do anything. It's absurd.
How does this not apply to SWG?
SWG not being worthwhile to renew the contract is the result of what is being discussed, not the cause.
Why would they shut it down? Why not just make it free to play and see what happens from there
Yeah, that would have been the right choice a few years ago but it is far too late by now and the only option is cutting their losses.
With EQ2 they do give about the same worth for the monthly fees as most other companies but SWG and VG have been understaffed for years. In SWGs case is it Lucas art that pulls the plug however and it wouldm't be worth the job to revamp the game into a general sci-fi game.
Vanguard can still be saved, but it would demand a revamp of thhe game and a re-release under a different name, that way and with suport they could actually get enough players to make it worth. To me it looks like they plan to kill VG as well when EQ3 releases.
SWG have been dying for years until LA pulled the plug when TOR releases. It had so few players that I don't think Smed cared much enough to even complain a little.
They made the promises because they trusted that people would come back. And yes, they did clean it up at a reaosnable pace. Maybe you dont know this, but Vanguard was a complete disaster.
All told it was about 1.5 years from when they acquired it to where it is today, but it was spread over that time. Yes, that is a pretty brisk pace considering what they had to work with.
So at what point is it ok for a company to stop supporting their mmo, but continue to charge the same rates? Also how long is it acceptable for that to continue?
Does 5,000 people quitting somehow change the amount of money you pay for the game? Does it change the amount of support you will get from another companies game for the same amount of money? When an mmo stops becoming a work in progress, what is really left to justify the premium fees?
I do understand companies have bottom lines, but that doesn't mean it is an acceptable practice or something players are at fault for not supporting, let alone getting down on their knees and thanking the companies for doing such good work.
Look, I'm a die-hard SOE hater because of the whole CU/NGE thing from years ago. Saying that, even I have to admit that SWG of today is much better today than the 34 professions from pre-NGE. Balancing that many classes all with a variety of different builds was a disaster that not even team triple the size of the SWG staff could have handled. SOE is offereing NINE games for $19.95 a monthor any of their games for $15 a month or you can play a varient of their games in their stand alone F2P model. SW Clones and Freerealms are doing HUGE business for SOE. Sure, they could improve more but they have come a long ways. You have to be honest here because like it or not, SOE is leading the way in options for it's customers and how they choose to pay for their games.
Power to the Sheeple
1.5 years is a reasonable time frame for a failed game to turn around and expect players to pay during that time?
How did SOE "trust" players to come back when they are not promising to come back at all? People were leaving very bitter and being very vocal about their distrust of SOE... many even before SOE bought the game.
SOE was never promised that players would return, ever. Just like the NGE, it was 100% their responsibility to deliver something that would be good enough for players to want to return to. The burden was on SOE to earn back the trust and patronage of the people who felt cheated and sold a broken game.
1.5 years later and those former players were already in another mmo and most likely also enjoying the first expansion pack for that game as well. Meanwhile 2 year old Vanguard can finally say it has a raid and stability, but has no chance of ever seeing an expansion and people are supposed to flock back?. I'm still not sure why players are being held accountable for not returning to such a problem filled game. Be it Vanguard or SWG/NGE.
LucasArts threw money at SOE to get out of the contract early I'm sure... SOE is like the black widow of game publishing and distribution... get in bed with them, it's fun for a bit and then, they kill you and suck the lifeblood out of you.
No bitchers.
I don't know why I always fall for trying to counter emotion based arguments with logic. Good luck.
Agreed. I went to V:SOH a long time ago to follow Sigil and their team. When they sold out to SOE, I was done with the game. I still resent SOE because of the CU/NGE of SWG. Saying that, I did go back and look at V:SOH for a month and I have to admit that SOE did put a lot of money and effort to make MAJOR improvements to the game. However, I still refuse to give SOE my money and as such, quit after the free month of a 99 cent Gamestop bargin bin buy was over.
Power to the Sheeple
This isn't about what version of SWG was better and I completely agree that the original version of the game was a train wreck. I think the overall product would be much better if the last 7 years spent on NGE and the combat upgrade were instead focused on fixing the original game. Even if that meant cutting down the professions or whatever.
SOE might be leading the way with payment options, but notice no one seems to be following? All the meddling around with revenue streams hasn't really produced things that most companies are following. Most of it has come off as more negative nickle and diming of their customers and driving them away than is has done to help advance the genre. Honestly SOE is still struggling with the F2P concept. Free Realms switched to a subscription only model and EQ2X isn't exactly a booming success with its 1 server.
I don't think those games are doing the huge business you think they are. Huge successes are usually not followed by consecutive massive layoffs.
But then it wouldnt be Vanguard. Vanguard as it is (not NGE'd just like they said they wouldnt do) can not be saved.
It has die hard supporters, but the fact is that most people that try it dont like it enough to play it for long.
Its a shame that the world they created has gone to waste though. It needed some more detail and life, but the dungeons were cool and the size of the world was impressive.
You are right about this. Problem is that SoE spread itself to thin. It should stick to EQ franchise and Planetside. Dont worry about acquiring other projects, just stick to what you do well.
If they do make an additional project then go for the one thing that can make your company stand out again: a sandbox. Dont expect millions, but if it made a solid sandbox based off the SWG class structure (not the setting) the company could once more be amongst the leaders.
I would also say to avoid working with 3rd party licenses as those have not worked out very well for SOE.
While I think a sandbox game would make many people happy, the truth is that they are difficult to make and take a special kind of developer (the person not a company) to create. Raph Koster has that kind of background and vision, but I really doubt SOE has anyone like that. That isn't a criticism, because I don't think there are many who can do a proper sandbox game.
Stick to EQ, Planetside and other creations from their own in house development. The Agency was probably the right way to go. A spy themed mmo sounded like it could be really fun.
You are saying that Vanguard suffered ebcause SoE failed and didnt work hard to improve the game. But they did work hard to improve the game and did so signficantly. But people do not play it, despite a lot of people saying at launch 'this game has potential but im not paying for a beta', 'fix the performance', 'wheres the end game content'...well those major complaints were all answered.
This is not because of lack of effort from SoE. This is because they promised not to change the core of the game and have lived up to that promise. They did what the players wanted. Perhaps the game just wasnt that good to begin with?
So I dont blame the players for not playing the game as it is, but they did give SoE the impression that they loved the core of Vanguard and that it was worth investing in. And this turned out to not be the case.
Yeah, enough with third party licenses. They work best when they have freedom.
And yes it is highly doubtful anyone at SoE has the vision that Raph has. But that doesnt mean someone cant be hired. Brad McQuaid wasnt in house until Smedley hired him for Everquest. And this is also a good lesson. Dont go for the big MMO developer names. MCQuaid sure sucked his second time around. Get someone fresh and hungry. Get the next big thing.
While making merely a good game (Everquest2) wont change your company image, making a great game will.
The core of vanguard did have potential, but that can be said about any of the mountain of failed mmos that have been released. Hell SWG has massive potential even in the current state, but look what is happening to it.
Vanguard has potential. SOE tried to fix the game and make that potential a reality. You say players said they wanted to come back when the game was all fixed. Players didn't come back.... Guess why?
Same situation for SWG.
Also, this might sound crazy, but it would be interesting to see Brad actually team up with SOE again to work on an mmo. Brad obviously has vision for gameplay, but he can't really run a business or be left in complete charge of operations. SOE is in enough trouble that they might be desperate enough to give Brad another chance. It isn't like they have developed quality leadership from within their ranks or top flight developers are beating down their doors.
If SOE could pocket their greed for a while that might just work.
Smedley sure didn't even try to get the license after his agreement with LA. He said as much about that conversation in the interview. Nothing I stated deviates from what you said there. Remember its really just my opinion on the forces in action. Smedley has also said in interview about the developement of DCUO that working with DC Comic and/or Time Warner had been a very positive experiance compared to other IP holders. That was a ovious jab at the poor relationship garnered with Lucas Arts. Could that statment be directed at Time Warner for the Matrix? I don't think so. So its no secret Smedley was fustrated with Lucas Arts on SWG. But business is business and you suck it up and move forward.
My favorite reason to close SWG thus far is one of mistake. Stated in this thread, LA and/or EA might have feared that the Millions of perspective fans doing a search for a "Star Wars MMO" might have found SWG and chose to play that instead of TOR. It makes sense that casual players might make that mistake. EA sure couldn't let that happen. So closing SWG just before TOR launches will help channel those poor unknowing millions to the new money pot.
I was at Fan Faire and discussed with one of the SWG senators his view of SOE's stability. Fan Faire is a testament to the companies outlook. It was quite thin compared to Faires past. We both felt the company is doing real poor in light of its most recent failures. If Planetside 2 fails, then it maybe the end for SOE. Oh, and this year Vanguard had NO precense at all on the floor. As to the Facebook games, you need to read into that situation a little more. Facebook has cut deals with select companies for its games. Sony is not one of those.
To your question: SOE would gain the revenue from those still playing SWG or maintaining subs with SWG while playing TOR. Keeping SWG open benefited SOE and LA while TOR is not the only Star Wars MMO. Closing SWG benefits EA/Bioware/LA while those who want SWG get the BIRD (or flightless bird).
I know that SOE really burned you and your friends with the NGE. I know that SOE lies. I know SOE has made mistakes and straight out violation of player trust. Its well documented whether its in development cycle, managment or marketing. And as much as the warmth of your SOE hate comforts you, LA was there approving everything that went into SWG from the fuzz on Valentine Ewok nuts to alienating the vet core base in favor of WOW like sub numbers. Some of the original Lucas Arts developers (and some SOE one) are making TOR. When TOR launches, I think it will underscore what was desired from Lucas Arts in a Star Wars MMO. SOE failed to make it where Bioware might get it but in the end ...who ya' going to hate?