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MMO's : Gear, Grind and Real Money
asikis75
Member Posts: 16
My two cents and a new (in my mind) aproach to the ongoing discussion about MMO's and real money auction houses.
In all mainstream MMO's I've played the following pattern seems to be common :
1) Spend time leveling (AKA grinding EXP)
2)) Reach cap and spend time on endgame (AKA grinding Faction or Gear or Tradeskill or PvP ranks or whatever)
3) Reach top gear - top PvP rank top tradeskill rank top everything and wait for an expancion that will raise level cap and introduce new faction or tradeskills or Raids to farm for Items.
All of the above are done by converting Real World Time into MMO goodies.
As anyone with a job knows Real World Time can also be converted to money, its called work.
So in my mind Real World Time =Real World Money or Real World Time = MMO goodies.
Thus everything that we achieve in an MMO already has a price tag on it, what the developers are now doing is offering a direct way of exchanging Real World Money with MMO goodies.
Since most players agree that most things in an MMO become a chore after the 1st time (or even worse after doing it in a very similar game) and raiding is very much like a ''job'' in terms of commitment in time, the prospect of ''buying'' things is not a very bad prospect.
My personal oppinion is that options should be open to people who are sort on time and cant raid as often (or at all), as long as the options dont give an unfair advantage to people who are already ''maxed out''.
Comments
Hobby = Job
"I am not a robot. I am a unicorn."
So if my hoby produces a few purple items i dont really use does it matter if i sell em for real world or artificial world money?
In the real world there is a saying that he who has the most gold generally "wins" and no one will deny the "rich" have an obvious advantage in terms of power and prestige in real life.
Many people enjoy the fact that in a gaming world this "equation" does not have to be true, instead players who put in the most effort (or time) in game are generally rewarded with accolades befitting their personal effort, and not based on what they chose to spend on items.
Particuarly in a PVP oriented MMO (which most are) items of power purchased for cash can really unbalance the game play and ruin the experience for everyone else.
But even in a PVE MMO such as ROM there is tell of stories of players being denied spots in PVE raids because they had not used the cash shop to enhance their gear to the level the other players felt they should have. (quite easy in ROM to spend hundereds of dollars on gear enhancements)
It's a choice actually, I play EQ2 and have no problem with the fact they offer Mastercrafted gear in the Station cash store, I'm one of those folks with more money that free time but its understandable that many players would prefer such a mechanic not exist.
And from a company perspective, its understandable why many would not want you personally to profit, they'd rather keep the cash to themselves.
Blizzard's only permitting it in D3 because just like Amazon.com, they figure there's much money to be made in running the auction house without actually getting their hands dirty with direct selling of items for cash.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
People like the game to balanced, whether you are poor or rich.
Don't want to play games that force me to spend loads out of my CC just to stay competitive, this has no place in MMO's imo. Its a goddamn hobby, want to enjoy it for what it is. When it comes to chosing between spending 50€ on some items to get better or going out that night for the same price, that is were I draw the line
"I am not a robot. I am a unicorn."
Just to be clear, I'd rather the money go back to the developer because they in fact, own the game and it is their right to profit from it.
You as a player have no such right, and a real money auction house creates an imbalance by allowing those of great weath to circumvent the game mechanics (let's call them "the rules" ) set forth by the developers.
In Blizzard's case they'd decided just to give up and quit fighting the battle, it will save them money in the long term not having to deal with quite so many hacked accounts or what have you, and they'll make boatloads of cash from people listing and selling items on the real world AH.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I agree with you that it is a hobby, but events have shown that people will spend money in order to obtain some sort of advantage, whether that is through an official AH or some 3rd party sweat shop that spams 24/7 to attract customers. In the 1st case the money stays in the community while on the 2nd case the money goes into the pockets of those who run the cash shops. I dont think its a clear black/white or right/wrong issue.
I think the developer will profit anyway even in the form of an AH listing or selling fee. The real issue is to discuss how such a development would impact the average player. A player run economy will balance the prices to whatever the majority finds acceptable. Out of game cash injections will happen anyway regardless of weather the cash cames through the player's account directly or from a 3rd party site. In sort if mr X wants to buy a purple toy he will anyway.
People have also shown a proclivity to use hacks developed outside the game so perhaps developers should just provide them for a fee to the rest of us (or let those hackers sell them to us) so we all can gold dupe and speed hack?
Yes, I know, its an extreme example, but the concept is the same, and I'm not so sure Developers should throw in the towel and cater to people's baser desires.
Sort of like the war on drugs, some people espose giveing up entirely and decriminalizing drugs, while others feel we don't go far enough in punishing abusers to try and prevent the bad behavior.
Probably in both cases the worst place to be is where we are, firmly in the middle instead at being at one end or another.
In the case of D3, Blizzard's more less decided to open it up, and make a profit from it as well. Nothing wrong with that, but some people won't be happy about the decision. (I'm not one of them btw, I'd purchase something if I felt the desire to)
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
That's one of the most common arguments in favor of it and, while I normally have no issue with item malls in games, yours is the most common rationalization for selling virtual goods. As such not the best argument to use if you're trying to change anyone's mind on the matter.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
All my idealistic arguments get trumped by the fact that there is money on the table that people are willing to spend.
All I can do is vote with my wallet on the game design I want or don't want to support.
Excuse me but i am highly against item malls, what i am discussing is Real Money AH where players have the option to sell or buy their items for Game or Real money. I am not trying to change anyone's mind on the matter. I am just trying to help people figure out that Real Money AH is not Item mall and thus not Pay to Win. It may be Pay-to-avoid-grinding-the-same-mob-for-hours- to-get-last-piece-of-Itemset, but its not pay to win as long as any other player can get it too by simply grinding the mob.
The fault of the community is that we have accepted that ''a certain ammount of grind is to be expected'' thus fascilitating the developers into making the whole experience an elaborate grind. If the grind is to get a virtual home or pay a role in a virtual war or something virtualy ''significant'' i am cool with that. But its usually about gear and that is just plain wrong.
I fail to see how ''I play all day thus my char is better than yours'' is acceptable by the community while ''I work all day and thus can afford a better char'' is not...
I think it's fine for players to sell items to each other for real money. I draw the line at developers selling items to players. I think it's because when a player sells an item to another player, somebody had to do something to earn that item. It didn't just pop out of nothing from the cash shop. So, in my mind, the Blizzard real money auction house in Diablo 3 is fine, but the Warhammer method of selling items directly to players so they can compete in the end game of an mmorpg is not fine.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Could you clarify that a bit for me? I don't follow the connection between your post and the contention that since real world time equals real world money then everything that we achieve in an MMO already has a price tag on it.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Well said! that is exactly what i have been trying to say. As long as players actually ''earn'' the item either as a drop or by crafting it, there is no diference if they sell it for Real Money or trade it for another item or vendor it if it is what pleases them. The casual player will be able to ''gear up'' if he wants to and the hard core raider make even make something on the side for all the effort and hours he has put into the game. Its a win - win situation and should be clearly marked as having nothing to do with Pay-To-Win.
You don't think gold farmers aren't going to be selling items on the real life auction house? In fact, if Blizzard is smart they'll offer discount pricing for large scale auctioning operations, sort of like the deals FEDX gives its biggest shippers.
The good news here is they'll likely end up driving prices downwards (well, good if you're a buyer, not so good if selling)
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
As long as MMORPGs are gear-centric / level-centric, and as long as gearing / leveling up is tedious and boring, there will be a market for several forms of RMT (And bots / hacks). Game companies cannot stop that, they can choose to do what they have been doing for years and ignore the situation, letting RMT traders take advantage, or they can step in and try at least to provide a way to do it legally. And yes, it provides IRL wealthy players to a shortcut that maybe those not so economically endowed have, but that has been always like that. People bought gear and leveling with RMT traders.
For me its clearly unfair for a game developer to almost force a player to do repetitive, boring tasks in order to level up or gear up. And its double unfair to charge for items that reduce the time taken given that they were who designed at first the game to be boring. Same applies to gear.
This is only true of you make it true.
If you have a P2P game that doesn't allow item shops, and tries it's best to ban gold sellers, then this is not true.
Then it remains a game, not work.
And that's the sort of game I like to play.
If you feel you have to purchse anything in a game with real world money (besides access to the game), then IMO, it is not a fun game, and I would not want to play it.
That doesn't mean I mind if you want to play a game with an item shop because you enjoy shopping for digital items. That's fine with me.
But I"m not into shopping, and the minute there is an item in the game that has stats that can be purchased for real world cash, that game is no longer fun to me.
Now it is work, and no longer a game.
Think if it like this.
You could go surfing.
OR, you could pay someone to go surfing for you.
Would you pay someone to go surfing for you?
No, if you had to do that, you just wouldn't surf.
That's how I feel about MMORPGs.
It should be fun, just like surfing. If I have to pay someone to do it for me it's not fun, and I just wouldnt' do it.
I think that neither side of the issue is right, or wrong. Both try to rationalize somethign that really just comes down to "fun" which is EXTREMELY subjective.
Either item mall games are fun for you, or they are not fun.
Some people like ice climbing. Personally, I'd rather not climb the side of a sheer cliff of ice. But to each their own.
Someone that likes ice climbing could tell me about it all day long, but nothing they say is going to make that fun for me. It's cold and dangerous, and I have no idea why anyone would willingly do it.
It's the same with item mall games. you can talk till you are blue in the face, but nothing you say is going to make an item mall game fun for me.
I agree with this as well.
One player handing another player cash doesn't affect the game world.
I can go make a bunch of gold, and give it to a newb in most MMORPGs.
Whether that newb sends me 50 bucks on paypal or not, doesn't change the game world. That 50 bucks doesn't enter the game world.
The gold was created by player actions, not by the 50 bucks.
In an item mall, the gold, xp potion, gear, is created NOT by player actions, but by real world cash. So that cash enters the game world, and destroys the immersion for me.
In a perfect world with no asian dedicated to farming for hours to no end, with slave labour(which is one of the reasons I will never support it) just to make a proffit.
You would be turning MMO's from a game to a business on the players end
"I am not a robot. I am a unicorn."
For once again please learn to tell the diference between Auction House and Item Cash Shop. There is a huge diference.
In the auction house players buy and sell THEIR items (drops or Crafted) for money (real or game money) to other players at a price that both agree is fair. If one thinks an item is over price he can just run the raid or farm the mob or whatever.
In the item cash shop players Buy items that other non cash shop players dont have access to thus creating an unfair advantage. If one thinks that an item is over priced he can never access it.
Do we agree on the diference? first one is what has been going on untill now anyway but with $ instead of Gold, the second one is mostly in F2P games and yes it is the definition of Pay to Win.
So in short : Cash AH is NOT pay to Win
I have no money, I can't buy the item in the AH, my friend is rich and can afford it, he gets to go on the raid/mission, NOT pay to win? It's the EvE plex fallacy again, just because another player gets the cash, it doesn't change the fact it's pay to win (not guaranteed, but an advantage)Since the item is available as a drop or otherwise in game you can play the traditional way and just get it as loot. Your friend who can afford it (propably cause he works and cant play all day) will buy it, at the end of the day both of you spent time (you playing and him working) and have the item. How is that pay to win? Its more like pay to grind less...