Gotta love some of the logic of some of this here... They are a minority and their acts are unnatural/ungodly, blah, blah blah...
What this boils down to is that some people just don't feel like homosexuals are human beings, and that their feelings because they are not human beings and a minority can't possibly be hurt by being excluded from a game.
This isn't a movie where the characters are out of the watchers control, this is supposedly a video game where you're supposed to be able to choose your story. Well now a group of people have essentially been purposley excluded from that story. I don't blame them for feeling hurt and being upset, we live in a day and age where we should be beyond this sort of mononic bigotry. And Bioware has proven itself in the past to have included this particular group, yet suddenly, and especially with a feature that is new to MMO's, they can't be bothered. Yeah there is a reason this raise so many red flags for people.
Rationalize it all you like, but there is an element of homophobia at work here as well as in all the vitrolic logic I've seen in opposition to same-sex relationship inclusion.
I am a straight male, and the only reason I bring that up is to show that there are people who are not homosexual who are not freightened by the idea of a video game having same-sex relationship and do think that their intentional exclusion from a game especially like SWTOR is a sad cop out for a game developer that is usually better than this.
Throwing the word homophobic around like people are not normal to feel bad around homosexual behavior seems extreme. I think the point people dont understand is that some people find homosexual behavior unattractive, and some find it disgusting (notice how not everyone watches gay porn). But, the same people will torerlate it, but does that make them homophobic for feeling that way? Is it wrong? To what level of thier disgust or action against homosexuals would it be considered homophobic. If you call anyone who feels disgusted by homosexual behavior, homophobic, then that is a lot of people. So know your problem is ingrained into the human species as well, and not just culture.
If all humans did not naturally feel homophobic tendencies, then sexual preference would not be an issue. So the fact there are sexual preferences means that people are at least some what homophobic to prefer one gender over the other.
So, it seems now you want them to against thier own feelings for them to be more politically correct.
SGRA exists in other games, but as stated earlier it is an online game which attracts a certain group of people who will not like SGRA and will be rude about it. How will you swtor community react to people being deragotry to gay jedi's etc?
Dont expect people to ignore and change thier feelings becuase you call them bigots. The people who are in favor of SGRA are intolerant of peoples preference and expect them to change thier feelings, and also against the potential the online in game community debacle should it be made into reality.
Of course if by chance SGRA did not affect ratings, online community, others people's willingness to play etc, then of course it would be implemented. Yet, its inclusion expects people to ignore thier own feelings as a majority for the inclusion of something for a minority, where by its inclusion allows everyone to play and also does not potentially affect the community with behavior they are phobic to, or will have fun trolling with.
Write bad things that are done to you in sand, but write the good things that happen to you on a piece of marble
I guess I don't understand why it's that big a deal that they didn't include it in the game. When it is included in the game, there isn't an uproar. Why is that?
I imagine it is a big deal to people who are homosexual because it must feel like an intentional slap in the face, an intentional cutting them out of the picture. If they said no "white men" in SWTOR I supposed I'd be a little pissed too. And certainly given the reality of the world outside where homosexuals have to fight for equality under the law, this must feel like just another act of bigotry.
I'm not a minority of any kind, but I was raised to judge people by their individual actions and give everyone a fair shake. Considering this was in previous bioware titles, this probably doesn't feel like a fair shake it probably feels like being cast out.
I would not expect a game built to be a LGBT game to have heterosexual relationships. Star Wars, for the most part, is not a universe where relationships (romantic ones) take priority. The most we ever got was Han and leia's kiss and of course, an off screen conception for the twins with Padme and Anakin. Even with the extended universe (which i have some knowledge), Star Wars is a predominately heterosexual universe with just the few relationships we have information about.
So again, I reiterate that I do not see the need for relationships in the first place and that same-sex relationships are not common (nor canonical) in the universe. I do not see the expectation that Bioware should have them and that it should be an accepted fact.
If there was a same-sex MMO created and it did not have hetrosexual relationships in it, I can promise you it would not be that big of a deal.
-same-sex relatinships are canon in the star wars universe.
-lucas arts has said as a policy that homosexuality exists in star wars.
-bioware has made same gender relationships in many of their past games.
-bioware has stated that same gender relationships are not time consuming or expensive for them.
-swtor is supposed to be rated teen
-the esrb does not rate same gender content at a higher rating than straight content.
-star wars most definitely had sexuality. leia + luke, leia + han, anakin + padme, leia's slave girl outfit, many many twilek dancers, insinuations, jokes.
-sexuailty does not = sex
-i doubt bioware would develope a "heterosexual MMO" this is 2011. that's like expecting a company like bioware to make a "white's only MMO". it sounds well... i'm sure there are "heterosexual restaurants" but maybe they're mostly in the bible belt? lol
I know what they are really up to, they plan to sell expansion packs in the cash shop for same sex releationship content.
I think the lore didn't really support it, it had potential to offend far more than 1% of the population, the content caters to a small % of the population (10% or so by most accounts) and hey, they've been ignoring the 10% or so of the player base who would prefer SWTOR be a sandbox style MMO so why so surprised they ignored other niche markets?
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I'm straight but not allowing same-sex relationships (let alone announcing it early) in a role playing game is a bad move. They might as well have announced: "There are no children in our game because we hate children. Jews also." Grow up EA and Bioware.
Where did they say they hated anyone? Oh wait, that's just the e-ragers adding that bit.
Got nothing about SGR(same gender romance) being added or no romance being added or w/e else people want.
However I see this whole outrage counterproductive for the gay community. Why would a game company think about ever adding SGR in their games, knowing that if they ever decide that they don't want to add it in another, all their past support will be forgotten. Not only that, they will be treated like an enemy. A company that never added it doesn't have to deal with all this, while one that did and supported SRG in some of their games is being accused of being bigots, because they decided not all of their games must absolutley have it.
Good job folks. By ranting and raving about it not being in TOR, its highly possible you may never see it again in any other game either. Keep it up.
Are you for real? This is like saying in the middle of the civil right era that the Black Panthers prove that African Americans can't handle equal rights and so the minority ruined it for everyone... *rolls eyes*
Im absolutely for real. I'll say it again since you missed it the first time.
THE OWNER of the IP may or may not allow this sort of thing associated with said IP. Namely Star Wars. In order to not have this happen again, Bioware may cut it out all together. Because its NOT WORTH IT.
Do you understand then in this case that Bioware has no choice not to include it? Because Lucas Arts will not clear it? There fore they have to put up with the flak? Therefore? Not worth it.
This is happening because in past games that were solely the IP of Bioware, they could do it. But in future games, they may partner with another IP that does NOT allow it. So? Eliminate future precidence so this doesnt happen twice.
Does that not make sense to you? Comparing it to a race issue does not relate in any way shape or form. *rolls eyes*
As a gay man, I'm not offended by this choice. It's a Bioware/Lucas Arts game, it's their playground. Let them build it the way they want. This hasn't deterred me from wanting to play the game. I really wasn't interested in the relationship aspect of the game anyway, just like I'm not interested in the PvP content.
It's a game....let's just play it and forget about our real lives for a while. All this anger and hatred over a trivial point in a game makes us all look a bit wonky.
Gotta love some of the logic of some of this here... They are a minority and their acts are unnatural/ungodly, blah, blah blah...
What this boils down to is that some people just don't feel like homosexuals are human beings, and that their feelings because they are not human beings and a minority can't possibly be hurt by being excluded from a game.
This isn't a movie where the characters are out of the watchers control, this is supposedly a video game where you're supposed to be able to choose your story. Well now a group of people have essentially been purposley excluded from that story. I don't blame them for feeling hurt and being upset, we live in a day and age where we should be beyond this sort of mononic bigotry. And Bioware has proven itself in the past to have included this particular group, yet suddenly, and especially with a feature that is new to MMO's, they can't be bothered. Yeah there is a reason this raise so many red flags for people.
Rationalize it all you like, but there is an element of homophobia at work here as well as in all the vitrolic logic I've seen in opposition to same-sex relationship inclusion.
I am a straight male, and the only reason I bring that up is to show that there are people who are not homosexual who are not freightened by the idea of a video game having same-sex relationship and do think that their intentional exclusion from a game especially like SWTOR is a sad cop out for a game developer that is usually better than this.
Throwing the word homophobic around like people are not normal to feel bad around homosexual behavior seems extreme. I think the point people dont understand is that some people find homosexual behavior unattractive, and some find it disgusting (notice how not everyone watches gay porn). But, the same people will torerlate it, but does that make them homophobic for feeling that way? Is it wrong? To what level of thier disgust or action against homosexuals would it be considered homophobic. If you call anyone who feels disgusted by homosexual behavior, homophobic, then that is a lot of people. So know your problem is ingrained into the human species as well, and not just culture.
If all humans did not naturally feel homophobic tendencies, then sexual preference would not be an issue. So the fact there are sexual preferences means that people are at least some what homophobic to prefer one gender over the other.
So, it seems now you want them to against thier own feelings for them to be more politically correct.
SGRA exists in other games, but as stated earlier it is an online game which attracts a certain group of people who will not like SGRA and will be rude about it. How will you swtor community react to people being deragotry to gay jedi's etc?
Dont expect people to ignore and change thier feelings becuase you call them bigots. The people who are in favor of SGRA are intolerant of peoples preference and expect them to change thier feelings, and also against the potential the online in game community debacle should it be made into reality.
Of course if by chance SGRA did not affect ratings, online community, others people's willingness to play etc, then of course it would be implemented. Yet, its inclusion expects people to ignore thier own feelings as a majority for the inclusion of something for a minority, where by its inclusion allows everyone to play and also does not potentially affect the community with behavior they are phobic to, or will have fun trolling with.
I know many people that find anything explicit unattractive, it doesn't matter whether it's straight or gay. It's important to note that younger the generation is the less they care or have a reaction to same gender relationships. The fact that one person is disgusted or uncomfortable by seeing two same gendered people being intimate is not something innate to being human. It's a function of how you were raised and what you were taught to believe.
There have been many cultures where being gay is a non-issue. Including Greece, Rome, polynesian cultures, native american cultures, etc. So it doesn't make sense that the "discomfort" that some people feel towards gay sexuality is natural. That "discomfort" is something that some hildren learn from the environment they grow up in.
The ESRB does not award a higher rating for having gay content vs having straight content. They are treated the same.
The whole post above is also irrelevant because the player doesn't see anyone else story romance arc. The player only sees his own. So if you don't want to watch two characters of the same gender flirting then don't flirt with a character of the same gender...
So, just so I understand...people are actually upset because they can't make out with a same-sex companion IN A VIDEO GAME? Really?!?
Look, I'm all for gay and lesbian rights in real life, but if you are honestly upset because you can't carry out some fictional relationship with a same-sex partner that happens to be pixelled...then it's time to seriously evaluate your social life, and maybe your mental state.
I mean I know the fact that we all play MMO's proves that we've got some nerd-like qualities to begin with, but c'mon...this is jumping the nerd shark, so to speak.
Gotta love some of the logic of some of this here... They are a minority and their acts are unnatural/ungodly, blah, blah blah...
What this boils down to is that some people just don't feel like homosexuals are human beings, and that their feelings because they are not human beings and a minority can't possibly be hurt by being excluded from a game.
This isn't a movie where the characters are out of the watchers control, this is supposedly a video game where you're supposed to be able to choose your story. Well now a group of people have essentially been purposley excluded from that story. I don't blame them for feeling hurt and being upset, we live in a day and age where we should be beyond this sort of mononic bigotry. And Bioware has proven itself in the past to have included this particular group, yet suddenly, and especially with a feature that is new to MMO's, they can't be bothered. Yeah there is a reason this raise so many red flags for people.
Rationalize it all you like, but there is an element of homophobia at work here as well as in all the vitrolic logic I've seen in opposition to same-sex relationship inclusion.
I am a straight male, and the only reason I bring that up is to show that there are people who are not homosexual who are not freightened by the idea of a video game having same-sex relationship and do think that their intentional exclusion from a game especially like SWTOR is a sad cop out for a game developer that is usually better than this.
Throwing the word homophobic around like people are not normal to feel bad around homosexual behavior seems extreme. I think the point people dont understand is that some people find homosexual behavior unattractive, and some find it disgusting (notice how not everyone watches gay porn). But, the same people will torerlate it, but does that make them homophobic for feeling that way? Is it wrong? To what level of thier disgust or action against homosexuals would it be considered homophobic. If you call anyone who feels disgusted by homosexual behavior, homophobic, then that is a lot of people. So know your problem is ingrained into the human species as well, and not just culture.
If all humans did not naturally feel homophobic tendencies, then sexual preference would not be an issue. So the fact there are sexual preferences means that people are at least some what homophobic to prefer one gender over the other.
So, it seems now you want them to against thier own feelings for them to be more politically correct.
SGRA exists in other games, but as stated earlier it is an online game which attracts a certain group of people who will not like SGRA and will be rude about it. How will you swtor community react to people being deragotry to gay jedi's etc?
Dont expect people to ignore and change thier feelings becuase you call them bigots. The people who are in favor of SGRA are intolerant of peoples preference and expect them to change thier feelings, and also against the potential the online in game community debacle should it be made into reality.
Of course if by chance SGRA did not affect ratings, online community, others people's willingness to play etc, then of course it would be implemented. Yet, its inclusion expects people to ignore thier own feelings as a majority for the inclusion of something for a minority, where by its inclusion allows everyone to play and also does not potentially affect the community with behavior they are phobic to, or will have fun trolling with.
Just because one is heterosexual doesn't mean they inherently find anything sexual disgusting. Disgust means - "to cause loathing or naseu in" or "to offend the good taste, moral sense", these are in fact strong actions, this isn't a passive, action of "homosexuality is not for me", but rather an inherent act against the choices of others. There is a sense of imposing ones own prefecences associated with language like "disgust". Much in the same way that some vegans are vegans for diet and some are vegans for moral reasons, there is not being an accepting heterosexual and there is being homophobic. There is a difference between having heterosexual desires and feeling disgust at homosexuals. I have sex with women because that's what I enjoy, that's what I want to do, not because I feel disgusted by homosexuals.
Anyone who wants to prevent others from having their own freedom to choose the kinds of relationships they pursue is a bigot. Sorry, facts are facts. The idea of most people having sex, heterosexual or homosexual is not "appealing" to me, but that doesn't mean I have a the desire or need to call them unnatural or disgusting. Anyone who has this need, has in inherent need to reassure themselves of their "normality" in society.
I call homophobia out every time I encounter it. The use of "gay" as a derogetory term is the bastion of the weak minded and inarticulate, if you're going to insult a person at least use the correct word for their behavior or be creative.
Good job folks. By ranting and raving about it not being in TOR, its highly possible you may never see it again in any other game either. Keep it up.
Are you for real? This is like saying in the middle of the civil right era that the Black Panthers prove that African Americans can't handle equal rights and so the minority ruined it for everyone... *rolls eyes*
Im absolutely for real. I'll say it again since you missed it the first time.
THE OWNER of the IP may or may not allow this sort of thing associated with said IP. Namely Star Wars. In order to not have this happen again, Bioware may cut it out all together. Because its NOT WORTH IT.
Do you understand then in this case that Bioware has no choice not to include it? Because Lucas Arts will not clear it? There fore they have to put up with the flak? Therefore? Not worth it.
This is happening because in past games that were solely the IP of Bioware, they could do it. But in future games, they may partner with another IP that does NOT allow it. So? Eliminate future precidence so this doesnt happen twice.
Does that not make sense to you? Comparing it to a race issue does not relate in any way shape or form. *rolls eyes*
Once again... Lucas Arts has approved homosexuals in their IP before
"Beviin was known as something of a traditionalist, and used old-fashioned equipment, including highly illegalcrushgaunts,[1] and beskar armor that was colored blue.[4] Beviin was homosexual, and settled down with his partner, Medrit Vasur, some time before 24 ABY.[1] The couple went on to adopt a daughter, Dinua Jeban. Beviin was a family man and was welcoming of guests on his farm.[2] Boba Fett thought of Beviin as all heart and courage, and not afraid of the pain of love.[3] He was the closest the anti-social Fett had to a friend.[2] Fett thought that Beviin would make a good Mandalore, but Beviin did not want to lead, and would rather stay on his farm.[5]Beviin held a deep hatred for the Yuuzhan Vong, and advocated killing every one. Beviin also held a dislike for the Jedi, and described Kubariet as "the only Jedi I've ever trusted."[3]"
As a gay man, I'm not offended by this choice. It's a Bioware/Lucas Arts game, it's their playground. Let them build it the way they want. This hasn't deterred me from wanting to play the game. I really wasn't interested in the relationship aspect of the game anyway, just like I'm not interested in the PvP content.
It's a game....let's just play it and forget about our real lives for a while. All this anger and hatred over a trivial point in a game makes us all look a bit wonky.
It's the way the situation was handled tgat makes it not trivial to me at all. And it's basically allowing hateful people to discriminate against you indirectly by putting pressure on Bioware to not include same gender content.
I might not even play the relationship aspect. But being swept under the rug in order to avoid controversy is not acceptable. At all. We don't know if that's the reason yet. Bioware has said they will put a response to the questions asked about their decision soon.
Yes, it's just a game. But bowing to prejudice, when Bioware has stated that same gendered content is not expensive or time consuming, is just not something I'm "OK with."
Good job folks. By ranting and raving about it not being in TOR, its highly possible you may never see it again in any other game either. Keep it up.
Are you for real? This is like saying in the middle of the civil right era that the Black Panthers prove that African Americans can't handle equal rights and so the minority ruined it for everyone... *rolls eyes*
Im absolutely for real. I'll say it again since you missed it the first time.
THE OWNER of the IP may or may not allow this sort of thing associated with said IP. Namely Star Wars. In order to not have this happen again, Bioware may cut it out all together. Because its NOT WORTH IT.
Do you understand then in this case that Bioware has no choice not to include it? Because Lucas Arts will not clear it? There fore they have to put up with the flak? Therefore? Not worth it.
This is happening because in past games that were solely the IP of Bioware, they could do it. But in future games, they may partner with another IP that does NOT allow it. So? Eliminate future precidence so this doesnt happen twice.
Does that not make sense to you? Comparing it to a race issue does not relate in any way shape or form. *rolls eyes*
Once again... Lucas Arts has approved homosexuals in their IP before
"Beviin was known as something of a traditionalist, and used old-fashioned equipment, including highly illegalcrushgaunts,[1] and beskar armor that was colored blue.[4] Beviin was homosexual, and settled down with his partner, Medrit Vasur, some time before 24 ABY.[1] The couple went on to adopt a daughter, Dinua Jeban. Beviin was a family man and was welcoming of guests on his farm.[2] Boba Fett thought of Beviin as all heart and courage, and not afraid of the pain of love.[3] He was the closest the anti-social Fett had to a friend.[2] Fett thought that Beviin would make a good Mandalore, but Beviin did not want to lead, and would rather stay on his farm.[5]Beviin held a deep hatred for the Yuuzhan Vong, and advocated killing every one. Beviin also held a dislike for the Jedi, and described Kubariet as "the only Jedi I've ever trusted."[3]"
Oh sure. Ive seen you post this before and Im not arguing with you that there may or may not be precedence. That doesnt mean they didnt put a red light on it regardless. Just because it showed up in a couple of books about Bobba Fett, which there have been tons off anyways, doesnt mean they'll go rushing to put it into a movie. Or a video game.
Because they havent. And they probably wont.
You've taken a SINGLE character in the ENTIRE Star Wars universe who appeared in a few measily books, which btw, there are tons of Star Wars books with nothing of the sort in them, and you keep pointing out, " Look! Precedence! Really! Look!"
Im pretty sure Lucas would chuckle at you right now just like I am.
EDIT: Also, not all Star Wars books are considered hard cannon despite popular belief. There are alternate realities and tangents as well as books that dont match up with events in others. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Canon
I share the writer opinion on this : if you want to remove same-sex relationships.. Remove the hetero ones as well..
And yes, it's just a game.. But I think the gays have been marginalised enough without having this becoming an issue in future games development.. So I'm all for a "get everything or nothing at all"..
Now.. I know the issue doesn't comes from Bioware since they added this feature in ME and DA.. I have a feeling it doesn't comes from EA either since they published The Sims and late Bioware games.. So Lucas Arts remains being the reason to this drama.. But Bioware will keep on getting the blame on this one even though, and to their credits, they've taken risks back then being one of the first RPG to allow same-sex relationship (Fable being the only other that comes to my mind..) So bash if you must, but try to do it on the right heads..
Gotta love some of the logic of some of this here... They are a minority and their acts are unnatural/ungodly, blah, blah blah...
What this boils down to is that some people just don't feel like homosexuals are human beings, and that their feelings because they are not human beings and a minority can't possibly be hurt by being excluded from a game.
This isn't a movie where the characters are out of the watchers control, this is supposedly a video game where you're supposed to be able to choose your story. Well now a group of people have essentially been purposley excluded from that story. I don't blame them for feeling hurt and being upset, we live in a day and age where we should be beyond this sort of mononic bigotry. And Bioware has proven itself in the past to have included this particular group, yet suddenly, and especially with a feature that is new to MMO's, they can't be bothered. Yeah there is a reason this raise so many red flags for people.
Rationalize it all you like, but there is an element of homophobia at work here as well as in all the vitrolic logic I've seen in opposition to same-sex relationship inclusion.
I am a straight male, and the only reason I bring that up is to show that there are people who are not homosexual who are not freightened by the idea of a video game having same-sex relationship and do think that their intentional exclusion from a game especially like SWTOR is a sad cop out for a game developer that is usually better than this.
Throwing the word homophobic around like people are not normal to feel bad around homosexual behavior seems extreme. I think the point people dont understand is that some people find homosexual behavior unattractive, and some find it disgusting (notice how not everyone watches gay porn). But, the same people will torerlate it, but does that make them homophobic for feeling that way? Is it wrong? To what level of thier disgust or action against homosexuals would it be considered homophobic. If you call anyone who feels disgusted by homosexual behavior, homophobic, then that is a lot of people. So know your problem is ingrained into the human species as well, and not just culture.
If all humans did not naturally feel homophobic tendencies, then sexual preference would not be an issue. So the fact there are sexual preferences means that people are at least some what homophobic to prefer one gender over the other.
So, it seems now you want them to against thier own feelings for them to be more politically correct.
SGRA exists in other games, but as stated earlier it is an online game which attracts a certain group of people who will not like SGRA and will be rude about it. How will you swtor community react to people being deragotry to gay jedi's etc?
Dont expect people to ignore and change thier feelings becuase you call them bigots. The people who are in favor of SGRA are intolerant of peoples preference and expect them to change thier feelings, and also against the potential the online in game community debacle should it be made into reality.
Of course if by chance SGRA did not affect ratings, online community, others people's willingness to play etc, then of course it would be implemented. Yet, its inclusion expects people to ignore thier own feelings as a majority for the inclusion of something for a minority, where by its inclusion allows everyone to play and also does not potentially affect the community with behavior they are phobic to, or will have fun trolling with.
I know many people that find anything explicit unattractive, it doesn't matter whether it's straight or gay. It's important to note that younger the generation is the less they care or have a reaction to same gender relationships. The fact that one person is disgusted or uncomfortable by seeing two same gendered people being intimate is not something innate to being human. It's a function of how you were raised and what you were taught to believe.
There have been many cultures where being gay is a non-issue. Including Greece, Rome, polynesian cultures, native american cultures, etc. So it doesn't make sense that the "discomfort" that some people feel towards gay sexuality is natural. That "discomfort" is something that some hildren learn from the environment they grow up in.
The ESRB does not award a higher rating for having gay content vs having straight content. They are treated the same.
The whole post above is also irrelevant because the player doesn't see anyone else story romance arc. The player only sees his own. So if you don't want to watch two characters of the same gender flirting then don't flirt with a character of the same gender...
I agree on the last option, and also there is the option of parental control as well for SGRA.
Yet for your last assumption it is a stretch to make since it is logical to assume the taught behavoir came from somone who by themselves felt this unattraction to begin with. Now the question is, it just a few people who teach it, and by teaching it make it worse for a soceity, or do a lot naturally feel that way and should be addressed in some way, realistically and convincingly for these people.
However what people actually feel, and in what percentages is really not important. There are two important things, one is the community and how it is affected, and the other for the people who are interested in SGRA for its implementation.
Arguing tirelessly might prove fruiftless. I might try to offer pionts to help counter for people, but the effort is better for those interested in SGRA to focus on making thier presence heard. Yet, I beleive even despite the T rating, that rating is too high for the target audience which could be much younger as well. If that is thier consideration?
To be honest, I am not sure whats BW's reason, other than they are having characters that fit the types that exist in the movies, possibly.
Write bad things that are done to you in sand, but write the good things that happen to you on a piece of marble
I don't recall KOTOR1 or 2 having same-sex relationships. Think the closest is KOTOR1 with that cat girl, Juhani (sp?). And that was incomplete at best. If TOR is modeled on KOTOR1 and 2, neither of which had it. Why put it in TOR, for the sake of appeasing a very small minority of people.
Hell if we are going to complain about that. I guess as an african american, I should be complaining about the lack of black people in the SW universe. There are more black people in the world then homosexuals. So hey why shouldn't I send a request to Bioware to have them put more black in it. Oh and I know I'll give old Mr Lucas himself a call. Tell him next time he re-releases the the Star Wars saga. He better find a way to inject more black people into it.
In War - Victory. In Peace - Vigilance. In Death - Sacrifice.
Im gay and im not at all insulted that SWTOR doesnt have gay relationships. Big woop its not the end of the world its their game to design as they see fit.
now i dont know if this was mentioned but if any one has ever read the books they would know Goran Beviin, mandalorian second in command to Mandalor Boba fett, was married to Medrit Vasur another mandalorian male.
so yes star wars does have gay marriage and if they can have gay marriage in the mandalorian scociety then it can go anywhere.
i used this example cause im down right in love with mandos
Really I think the lack of inclusion of homosexual relationships is going to effect a lot more people than just homosexuals. If getting certain quests requires you to form a sexual relationship with a companion then also people who prefer to play characters of the opposite gender are going to be forced to form relationships with companions of their actual gender. With voice acting it will be really hard to just act like the NPC is not the ender they are or whatever. We've seen it in numerous threads about how men like to roll female characters. One common reason I see given is "If I'm gonna stare at an ass all day I'd rather it be an attractive one" or some variation. Isn't voice acting going to really be immersion breaking when these straight men are seducing a NPC with a male voice?
Just another reason to include homosexual relationships.
Gotta love some of the logic of some of this here... They are a minority and their acts are unnatural/ungodly, blah, blah blah...
What this boils down to is that some people just don't feel like homosexuals are human beings, and that their feelings because they are not human beings and a minority can't possibly be hurt by being excluded from a game.
This isn't a movie where the characters are out of the watchers control, this is supposedly a video game where you're supposed to be able to choose your story. Well now a group of people have essentially been purposley excluded from that story. I don't blame them for feeling hurt and being upset, we live in a day and age where we should be beyond this sort of mononic bigotry. And Bioware has proven itself in the past to have included this particular group, yet suddenly, and especially with a feature that is new to MMO's, they can't be bothered. Yeah there is a reason this raise so many red flags for people.
Rationalize it all you like, but there is an element of homophobia at work here as well as in all the vitrolic logic I've seen in opposition to same-sex relationship inclusion.
I am a straight male, and the only reason I bring that up is to show that there are people who are not homosexual who are not freightened by the idea of a video game having same-sex relationship and do think that their intentional exclusion from a game especially like SWTOR is a sad cop out for a game developer that is usually better than this.
Throwing the word homophobic around like people are not normal to feel bad around homosexual behavior seems extreme. I think the point people dont understand is that some people find homosexual behavior unattractive, and some find it disgusting (notice how not everyone watches gay porn). But, the same people will torerlate it, but does that make them homophobic for feeling that way? Is it wrong? To what level of thier disgust or action against homosexuals would it be considered homophobic. If you call anyone who feels disgusted by homosexual behavior, homophobic, then that is a lot of people. So know your problem is ingrained into the human species as well, and not just culture.
If all humans did not naturally feel homophobic tendencies, then sexual preference would not be an issue. So the fact there are sexual preferences means that people are at least some what homophobic to prefer one gender over the other.
So, it seems now you want them to against thier own feelings for them to be more politically correct.
SGRA exists in other games, but as stated earlier it is an online game which attracts a certain group of people who will not like SGRA and will be rude about it. How will you swtor community react to people being deragotry to gay jedi's etc?
Dont expect people to ignore and change thier feelings becuase you call them bigots. The people who are in favor of SGRA are intolerant of peoples preference and expect them to change thier feelings, and also against the potential the online in game community debacle should it be made into reality.
Of course if by chance SGRA did not affect ratings, online community, others people's willingness to play etc, then of course it would be implemented. Yet, its inclusion expects people to ignore thier own feelings as a majority for the inclusion of something for a minority, where by its inclusion allows everyone to play and also does not potentially affect the community with behavior they are phobic to, or will have fun trolling with.
Just because one is heterosexual doesn't mean they inherently find anything sexual disgusting. Disgust means - "to cause loathing or naseu in" or "to offend the good taste, moral sense", these are in fact strong actions, this isn't a passive, action of "homosexuality is not for me", but rather an inherent act against the choices of others. There is a sense of imposing ones own prefecences associated with language like "disgust". Much in the same way that some vegans are vegans for diet and some are vegans for moral reasons, there is not being an accepting heterosexual and there is being homophobic. There is a difference between having heterosexual desires and feeling disgust at homosexuals. I have sex with women because that's what I enjoy, that's what I want to do, not because I feel disgusted by homosexuals.
Anyone who wants to prevent others from having their own freedom to choose the kinds of relationships they pursue is a bigot. Sorry, facts are facts. The idea of most people having sex, heterosexual or homosexual is not "appealing" to me, but that doesn't mean I have a the desire or need to call them unnatural or disgusting. Anyone who has this need, has in inherent need to reassure themselves of their "normality" in society.
I call homophobia out every time I encounter it. The use of "gay" as a derogetory term is the bastion of the weak minded and inarticulate, if you're going to insult a person at least use the correct word for their behavior or be creative.
Well, people do not like to watch porn of other kinds beucase depending on the material it is unattractive/disgusting to them.
While the option does exist, maybe the fact that the option exists in the same place is too close for comfort. And this temptation to something disgusting/unattractive is not what they would like to have exist in the same platform for them. There are ways around that, for example putting parental control etc. However, that would mean BW would have to create parental controls for romances, and for SGRA, which might be more than they want to do atm.
Also I agree that there seems to be this need for people to be reassured on being normal, hence the division of people who prefer to hang aournd like mind people, and use them as a role model.
However the point was on the behavior itself and not the person. So the point is how people will react to the behavior. I think it will be bad. What do you think would be the reaction to people seeing cutscenes of thier Jedis kissing?
Write bad things that are done to you in sand, but write the good things that happen to you on a piece of marble
I agree where it was said earlier in this thread by someone that most people just aren't accepting of this. This is true. I for one do not and will not play games with homosexuality content in them because I'm straight and do not approve of said content for morality reasons as well as "religious belief" reasons, not to mention my own upbringing. I'm also not a fan of "well everyone else is doing it, so that makes it ok" mentality. I'm my own man, not everyone elses. I make my opinions for myself and I believe in right or wrong. I am not and have never been hateful towards people that are gay. As the saying goes, hate the sin, not the sinner. I am glad there isn't going to be any content like this in ToR. As it stands I've pretty much decided to stop purchasing any other Bioware games because I know they are putting in gay content into their future games, which is a shame since they have such great skill at telling a story.
Banegrivm Leader of the 1st Fist of Light www.1stfistoflight.com
Either have both or leave them out entirely. If it's a development intensive aspect, and applying all those arcs on gay relationships would be too much of a hassle when compared to the gains (also making a certain minority of players happy), I can understand their choice, but I still think they should leave npc relationships out entirely.
If it's a choice made on cultural biass and bending to traditionalist, negative views on gay relationships I would be very disappointed in Bioware.
So they should force the majority of the game population to miss out on one of Biowares trademarks (deep relationships with companions) because they can't -either through Lucas Arts saying no or because of technical issues- include the minority in as well? Seems like one sided hypocracy. "If we can't have if they should not either".
I don't recall KOTOR1 or 2 having same-sex relationships. Think the closest is KOTOR1 with that cat girl, Juhani (sp?). And that was incomplete at best. If TOR is modeled on KOTOR1 and 2, neither of which had it. Why put it in TOR, for the sake of appeasing a very small minority of people.
Hell if we are going to complain about that. I guess as an african american, I should be complaining about the lack of black people in the SW universe. There are more black people in the world then homosexuals. So hey why shouldn't I send a request to Bioware to have them put more black in it. Oh and I know I'll give old Mr Lucas himself a call. Tell him next time he re-releases the the Star Wars saga. He better find a way to inject more black people into it.
Dude there are plenty of black people in the SWTOR. It's in character customization, NPCs, and the class story arcs. That's pretty much a standard in most Bioware games. No need to send any requests.
In KOTOR 1 the lesbian relationship with Juhani wasn't exactly minor. There are also gay characters in the Star Wars books. Lucas Arts has a policy stating that there are gay characters in the Star Wars universe. I don't think Bioware writes gay characters in their games "for the sake of appeasing a very small minority of people." For the same reason they don't put black characters in their games "for the sake of appeasing a very small minority of people."
In both cases it makes sese they put them there because their games are about story and choices and portraying an honest real world. Hard to make a personal story with a character you identify with when you have no choices to make a character you can identify with.
Bioware has also stated that making same gender content is not expensive or time consuming, which would also be the same for making charcters with dark skin tones.
Comments
Throwing the word homophobic around like people are not normal to feel bad around homosexual behavior seems extreme. I think the point people dont understand is that some people find homosexual behavior unattractive, and some find it disgusting (notice how not everyone watches gay porn). But, the same people will torerlate it, but does that make them homophobic for feeling that way? Is it wrong? To what level of thier disgust or action against homosexuals would it be considered homophobic. If you call anyone who feels disgusted by homosexual behavior, homophobic, then that is a lot of people. So know your problem is ingrained into the human species as well, and not just culture.
If all humans did not naturally feel homophobic tendencies, then sexual preference would not be an issue. So the fact there are sexual preferences means that people are at least some what homophobic to prefer one gender over the other.
So, it seems now you want them to against thier own feelings for them to be more politically correct.
SGRA exists in other games, but as stated earlier it is an online game which attracts a certain group of people who will not like SGRA and will be rude about it. How will you swtor community react to people being deragotry to gay jedi's etc?
Dont expect people to ignore and change thier feelings becuase you call them bigots. The people who are in favor of SGRA are intolerant of peoples preference and expect them to change thier feelings, and also against the potential the online in game community debacle should it be made into reality.
Of course if by chance SGRA did not affect ratings, online community, others people's willingness to play etc, then of course it would be implemented. Yet, its inclusion expects people to ignore thier own feelings as a majority for the inclusion of something for a minority, where by its inclusion allows everyone to play and also does not potentially affect the community with behavior they are phobic to, or will have fun trolling with.
Write bad things that are done to you in sand, but write the good things that happen to you on a piece of marble
I imagine it is a big deal to people who are homosexual because it must feel like an intentional slap in the face, an intentional cutting them out of the picture. If they said no "white men" in SWTOR I supposed I'd be a little pissed too. And certainly given the reality of the world outside where homosexuals have to fight for equality under the law, this must feel like just another act of bigotry.
I'm not a minority of any kind, but I was raised to judge people by their individual actions and give everyone a fair shake. Considering this was in previous bioware titles, this probably doesn't feel like a fair shake it probably feels like being cast out.
-same-sex relatinships are canon in the star wars universe.
-lucas arts has said as a policy that homosexuality exists in star wars.
-bioware has made same gender relationships in many of their past games.
-bioware has stated that same gender relationships are not time consuming or expensive for them.
-swtor is supposed to be rated teen
-the esrb does not rate same gender content at a higher rating than straight content.
-star wars most definitely had sexuality. leia + luke, leia + han, anakin + padme, leia's slave girl outfit, many many twilek dancers, insinuations, jokes.
-sexuailty does not = sex
-i doubt bioware would develope a "heterosexual MMO" this is 2011. that's like expecting a company like bioware to make a "white's only MMO". it sounds well... i'm sure there are "heterosexual restaurants" but maybe they're mostly in the bible belt? lol
I know what they are really up to, they plan to sell expansion packs in the cash shop for same sex releationship content.
I think the lore didn't really support it, it had potential to offend far more than 1% of the population, the content caters to a small % of the population (10% or so by most accounts) and hey, they've been ignoring the 10% or so of the player base who would prefer SWTOR be a sandbox style MMO so why so surprised they ignored other niche markets?
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Where did they say they hated anyone? Oh wait, that's just the e-ragers adding that bit.
Got nothing about SGR(same gender romance) being added or no romance being added or w/e else people want.
However I see this whole outrage counterproductive for the gay community. Why would a game company think about ever adding SGR in their games, knowing that if they ever decide that they don't want to add it in another, all their past support will be forgotten. Not only that, they will be treated like an enemy. A company that never added it doesn't have to deal with all this, while one that did and supported SRG in some of their games is being accused of being bigots, because they decided not all of their games must absolutley have it.
Im absolutely for real. I'll say it again since you missed it the first time.
THE OWNER of the IP may or may not allow this sort of thing associated with said IP. Namely Star Wars. In order to not have this happen again, Bioware may cut it out all together. Because its NOT WORTH IT.
Do you understand then in this case that Bioware has no choice not to include it? Because Lucas Arts will not clear it? There fore they have to put up with the flak? Therefore? Not worth it.
This is happening because in past games that were solely the IP of Bioware, they could do it. But in future games, they may partner with another IP that does NOT allow it. So? Eliminate future precidence so this doesnt happen twice.
Does that not make sense to you? Comparing it to a race issue does not relate in any way shape or form. *rolls eyes*
As a gay man, I'm not offended by this choice. It's a Bioware/Lucas Arts game, it's their playground. Let them build it the way they want. This hasn't deterred me from wanting to play the game. I really wasn't interested in the relationship aspect of the game anyway, just like I'm not interested in the PvP content.
It's a game....let's just play it and forget about our real lives for a while. All this anger and hatred over a trivial point in a game makes us all look a bit wonky.
I know many people that find anything explicit unattractive, it doesn't matter whether it's straight or gay. It's important to note that younger the generation is the less they care or have a reaction to same gender relationships. The fact that one person is disgusted or uncomfortable by seeing two same gendered people being intimate is not something innate to being human. It's a function of how you were raised and what you were taught to believe.
There have been many cultures where being gay is a non-issue. Including Greece, Rome, polynesian cultures, native american cultures, etc. So it doesn't make sense that the "discomfort" that some people feel towards gay sexuality is natural. That "discomfort" is something that some hildren learn from the environment they grow up in.
The ESRB does not award a higher rating for having gay content vs having straight content. They are treated the same.
The whole post above is also irrelevant because the player doesn't see anyone else story romance arc. The player only sees his own. So if you don't want to watch two characters of the same gender flirting then don't flirt with a character of the same gender...
So, just so I understand...people are actually upset because they can't make out with a same-sex companion IN A VIDEO GAME? Really?!?
Look, I'm all for gay and lesbian rights in real life, but if you are honestly upset because you can't carry out some fictional relationship with a same-sex partner that happens to be pixelled...then it's time to seriously evaluate your social life, and maybe your mental state.
I mean I know the fact that we all play MMO's proves that we've got some nerd-like qualities to begin with, but c'mon...this is jumping the nerd shark, so to speak.
Just because one is heterosexual doesn't mean they inherently find anything sexual disgusting. Disgust means - "to cause loathing or naseu in" or "to offend the good taste, moral sense", these are in fact strong actions, this isn't a passive, action of "homosexuality is not for me", but rather an inherent act against the choices of others. There is a sense of imposing ones own prefecences associated with language like "disgust". Much in the same way that some vegans are vegans for diet and some are vegans for moral reasons, there is not being an accepting heterosexual and there is being homophobic. There is a difference between having heterosexual desires and feeling disgust at homosexuals. I have sex with women because that's what I enjoy, that's what I want to do, not because I feel disgusted by homosexuals.
Anyone who wants to prevent others from having their own freedom to choose the kinds of relationships they pursue is a bigot. Sorry, facts are facts. The idea of most people having sex, heterosexual or homosexual is not "appealing" to me, but that doesn't mean I have a the desire or need to call them unnatural or disgusting. Anyone who has this need, has in inherent need to reassure themselves of their "normality" in society.
I call homophobia out every time I encounter it. The use of "gay" as a derogetory term is the bastion of the weak minded and inarticulate, if you're going to insult a person at least use the correct word for their behavior or be creative.
Once again... Lucas Arts has approved homosexuals in their IP before
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Goran_Beviin
"Beviin was known as something of a traditionalist, and used old-fashioned equipment, including highly illegalcrushgaunts,[1] and beskar armor that was colored blue.[4] Beviin was homosexual, and settled down with his partner, Medrit Vasur, some time before 24 ABY.[1] The couple went on to adopt a daughter, Dinua Jeban. Beviin was a family man and was welcoming of guests on his farm.[2] Boba Fett thought of Beviin as all heart and courage, and not afraid of the pain of love.[3] He was the closest the anti-social Fett had to a friend.[2] Fett thought that Beviin would make a good Mandalore, but Beviin did not want to lead, and would rather stay on his farm.[5]Beviin held a deep hatred for the Yuuzhan Vong, and advocated killing every one. Beviin also held a dislike for the Jedi, and described Kubariet as "the only Jedi I've ever trusted."[3]"
It's the way the situation was handled tgat makes it not trivial to me at all. And it's basically allowing hateful people to discriminate against you indirectly by putting pressure on Bioware to not include same gender content.
I might not even play the relationship aspect. But being swept under the rug in order to avoid controversy is not acceptable. At all. We don't know if that's the reason yet. Bioware has said they will put a response to the questions asked about their decision soon.
Yes, it's just a game. But bowing to prejudice, when Bioware has stated that same gendered content is not expensive or time consuming, is just not something I'm "OK with."
Oh sure. Ive seen you post this before and Im not arguing with you that there may or may not be precedence. That doesnt mean they didnt put a red light on it regardless. Just because it showed up in a couple of books about Bobba Fett, which there have been tons off anyways, doesnt mean they'll go rushing to put it into a movie. Or a video game.
Because they havent. And they probably wont.
You've taken a SINGLE character in the ENTIRE Star Wars universe who appeared in a few measily books, which btw, there are tons of Star Wars books with nothing of the sort in them, and you keep pointing out, " Look! Precedence! Really! Look!"
Im pretty sure Lucas would chuckle at you right now just like I am.
EDIT: Also, not all Star Wars books are considered hard cannon despite popular belief. There are alternate realities and tangents as well as books that dont match up with events in others. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Canon
I share the writer opinion on this : if you want to remove same-sex relationships.. Remove the hetero ones as well..
And yes, it's just a game.. But I think the gays have been marginalised enough without having this becoming an issue in future games development.. So I'm all for a "get everything or nothing at all"..
Now.. I know the issue doesn't comes from Bioware since they added this feature in ME and DA.. I have a feeling it doesn't comes from EA either since they published The Sims and late Bioware games.. So Lucas Arts remains being the reason to this drama.. But Bioware will keep on getting the blame on this one even though, and to their credits, they've taken risks back then being one of the first RPG to allow same-sex relationship (Fable being the only other that comes to my mind..) So bash if you must, but try to do it on the right heads..
I agree on the last option, and also there is the option of parental control as well for SGRA.
Yet for your last assumption it is a stretch to make since it is logical to assume the taught behavoir came from somone who by themselves felt this unattraction to begin with. Now the question is, it just a few people who teach it, and by teaching it make it worse for a soceity, or do a lot naturally feel that way and should be addressed in some way, realistically and convincingly for these people.
However what people actually feel, and in what percentages is really not important. There are two important things, one is the community and how it is affected, and the other for the people who are interested in SGRA for its implementation.
Arguing tirelessly might prove fruiftless. I might try to offer pionts to help counter for people, but the effort is better for those interested in SGRA to focus on making thier presence heard. Yet, I beleive even despite the T rating, that rating is too high for the target audience which could be much younger as well. If that is thier consideration?
To be honest, I am not sure whats BW's reason, other than they are having characters that fit the types that exist in the movies, possibly.
Write bad things that are done to you in sand, but write the good things that happen to you on a piece of marble
I don't recall KOTOR1 or 2 having same-sex relationships. Think the closest is KOTOR1 with that cat girl, Juhani (sp?). And that was incomplete at best. If TOR is modeled on KOTOR1 and 2, neither of which had it. Why put it in TOR, for the sake of appeasing a very small minority of people.
Hell if we are going to complain about that. I guess as an african american, I should be complaining about the lack of black people in the SW universe. There are more black people in the world then homosexuals. So hey why shouldn't I send a request to Bioware to have them put more black in it. Oh and I know I'll give old Mr Lucas himself a call. Tell him next time he re-releases the the Star Wars saga. He better find a way to inject more black people into it.
In War - Victory.
In Peace - Vigilance.
In Death - Sacrifice.
Im gay and im not at all insulted that SWTOR doesnt have gay relationships. Big woop its not the end of the world its their game to design as they see fit.
now i dont know if this was mentioned but if any one has ever read the books they would know Goran Beviin, mandalorian second in command to Mandalor Boba fett, was married to Medrit Vasur another mandalorian male.
so yes star wars does have gay marriage and if they can have gay marriage in the mandalorian scociety then it can go anywhere.
i used this example cause im down right in love with mandos
Really I think the lack of inclusion of homosexual relationships is going to effect a lot more people than just homosexuals. If getting certain quests requires you to form a sexual relationship with a companion then also people who prefer to play characters of the opposite gender are going to be forced to form relationships with companions of their actual gender. With voice acting it will be really hard to just act like the NPC is not the ender they are or whatever. We've seen it in numerous threads about how men like to roll female characters. One common reason I see given is "If I'm gonna stare at an ass all day I'd rather it be an attractive one" or some variation. Isn't voice acting going to really be immersion breaking when these straight men are seducing a NPC with a male voice?
Just another reason to include homosexual relationships.
Well, people do not like to watch porn of other kinds beucase depending on the material it is unattractive/disgusting to them.
While the option does exist, maybe the fact that the option exists in the same place is too close for comfort. And this temptation to something disgusting/unattractive is not what they would like to have exist in the same platform for them. There are ways around that, for example putting parental control etc. However, that would mean BW would have to create parental controls for romances, and for SGRA, which might be more than they want to do atm.
Also I agree that there seems to be this need for people to be reassured on being normal, hence the division of people who prefer to hang aournd like mind people, and use them as a role model.
However the point was on the behavior itself and not the person. So the point is how people will react to the behavior. I think it will be bad. What do you think would be the reaction to people seeing cutscenes of thier Jedis kissing?
Write bad things that are done to you in sand, but write the good things that happen to you on a piece of marble
I agree where it was said earlier in this thread by someone that most people just aren't accepting of this. This is true. I for one do not and will not play games with homosexuality content in them because I'm straight and do not approve of said content for morality reasons as well as "religious belief" reasons, not to mention my own upbringing. I'm also not a fan of "well everyone else is doing it, so that makes it ok" mentality. I'm my own man, not everyone elses. I make my opinions for myself and I believe in right or wrong. I am not and have never been hateful towards people that are gay. As the saying goes, hate the sin, not the sinner. I am glad there isn't going to be any content like this in ToR. As it stands I've pretty much decided to stop purchasing any other Bioware games because I know they are putting in gay content into their future games, which is a shame since they have such great skill at telling a story.
Banegrivm
Leader of the 1st Fist of Light
www.1stfistoflight.com
So they should force the majority of the game population to miss out on one of Biowares trademarks (deep relationships with companions) because they can't -either through Lucas Arts saying no or because of technical issues- include the minority in as well? Seems like one sided hypocracy. "If we can't have if they should not either".
probably the best explanation
Should have the function /thread, and actually ends the thread.
I think I have said too much already.
Good luck, and hope you all the best.
Write bad things that are done to you in sand, but write the good things that happen to you on a piece of marble
Dude there are plenty of black people in the SWTOR. It's in character customization, NPCs, and the class story arcs. That's pretty much a standard in most Bioware games. No need to send any requests.
In KOTOR 1 the lesbian relationship with Juhani wasn't exactly minor. There are also gay characters in the Star Wars books. Lucas Arts has a policy stating that there are gay characters in the Star Wars universe. I don't think Bioware writes gay characters in their games "for the sake of appeasing a very small minority of people." For the same reason they don't put black characters in their games "for the sake of appeasing a very small minority of people."
In both cases it makes sese they put them there because their games are about story and choices and portraying an honest real world. Hard to make a personal story with a character you identify with when you have no choices to make a character you can identify with.
Bioware has also stated that making same gender content is not expensive or time consuming, which would also be the same for making charcters with dark skin tones.