So let me guess. you are content with game just running and don't care for content updates or expansions? are you sure it is him who is making stupid arguments? Vanguard is a perfect example that an MMORPG indeed depend upon the number of players. Why would a company sink money into developing more content for MMO when they are not making any profit on it?
I think that though people would prefer to have updates and expansioins, there are a lot of people who are happy in the game.
there is a lot of content and the game play is such that it gives something a little different. There ARE people in the game. And I've met many who really like Vanguard and are content to be there.
That says a lot to me.
I play somewhat casually but I keep a sub because I enjoy coming into the game when I do have time. Sometimes it's just screwing aruond with new classes, sometimes it's setting a challenge for myself.
Not everyone requires new content all the time. Heck, i've been playign oblvioin for years now. Same with morrowind. Sometimes the setting is just "good enough".
I think you missed the point. he is talking about well supported MMO which Vanguard is not and players always tend to shy away from MMOS like these. Vanguard might have a lot of content for new players but then there is also this thing called retention and holding on to subs. So yes it is silly to say that Vanguard doesn't need more players.
In its current state how anyone can even make such comment is mind boggling. Problem is everyone just thinks about themselves 'but i am content' well that is not good enough.
The 1st years Vg did have the support, after SOE took over from Sigil, they roled out so many bug fixes not to mention a good amounth of content, but most players already left and the ones that stayed.. slowly left as well.
Sadly it makes sense that a company stops investing in something as they did, except instead of shutting the game down like others have done in the past with their products they left the servers up. There's a difference.
Still is a shame though VG is/was an amasing game.
We must be from different planets. The VG I tried out from beta to launch was one of the most disappointing, bugged, unstable online experience.
If WoW, or any game, launched in this day and age in the state WoW was at first then it would bomb.
WOW's only major issue when it launched was the queues. Can you link to what brought you to this conclusion about WOW's launch?
there was rampant rubberbanding and server crashes, but nothing to the scope that was the nightmare of VG at launch.
The main difference is WoW was still a relatively good game back then.
Rubberbanding happened during the first days, I cannot log in but my friend did. There were too many people in the same zone. The hardware was not good enough for the fancy graphical effects, so a lot of display issues. The fighting is still ok, only that the display sometimes fails to match perfectly. That happens in many games.
I do not have that problem when I successfully log on my own. My display card is much better and I join one of the newer servers. That suggested to me that it is a population issue, too many graphical effects, too many people in proximity.
I do not recall server crash, I read about someone saying some of the DCs are due to excess traffic, I never have DC myself. Queues are really long, that is very true and it took many new servers to spread them out. I actually rerolled in 4 new servers before I settled down, as our friends move from server to server to avoid the "horde".
So let me guess. you are content with game just running and don't care for content updates or expansions? are you sure it is him who is making stupid arguments? Vanguard is a perfect example that an MMORPG indeed depend upon the number of players. Why would a company sink money into developing more content for MMO when they are not making any profit on it?
I think that though people would prefer to have updates and expansioins, there are a lot of people who are happy in the game.
there is a lot of content and the game play is such that it gives something a little different. There ARE people in the game. And I've met many who really like Vanguard and are content to be there.
That says a lot to me.
I play somewhat casually but I keep a sub because I enjoy coming into the game when I do have time. Sometimes it's just screwing aruond with new classes, sometimes it's setting a challenge for myself.
Not everyone requires new content all the time. Heck, i've been playign oblvioin for years now. Same with morrowind. Sometimes the setting is just "good enough".
I think you missed the point. he is talking about well supported MMO which Vanguard is not and players always tend to shy away from MMOS like these. Vanguard might have a lot of content for new players but then there is also this thing called retention and holding on to subs. So yes it is silly to say that Vanguard doesn't need more players.
In its current state how anyone can even make such comment is mind boggling. Problem is everyone just thinks about themselves 'but i am content' well that is not good enough.
I didn't miss any point. Vanguard has a die hard fanbase who actually like the game and stuck with it even though the game was on borrowed time.
I can't name a game that didnt' eventually add a content patch that didn't piss off the core fanbase and make them start screaming.
I like the way that Vanguard is and I've paid a subscription for years. Would I want more content and a better supported game? Um, sure I suppose, why not! Though I certainly haven't seen all the game has to offer.
But would I want developers to change the timbre of the game in the name of "development'? no.
So sure, you're right there are a lot of players who aren't going to go to Vanguard because there aren't a lot of content updates. But there ARE players who stuck with the game because they like it, warts and all.
We play the game on our own terms and I'm sure we are certain the game is on borrowed time, as I mentioned above.
As far as "thinking about ourselves" sorry but I"m a customer and I pay for what I want and don't pay for what I don't want. If the game offers something I want then I'm there and if it does't then I'm not. We all have that choice.
This is not a club. I don't care if some players are turned off of the game because there aren't regular updates. BUT it's a catch 22. I care that the game lives on and in order to live on it needs players. In order to get more players the game needs to have updates. If the game has updates it might turn into something that I'm not interested in playing.
What can I say? I'm content the way the game is now, I'd welcome updates if they didn't take the game to a place I hated. I'd welcome updates if they attracted like minded players who love the thrust of what Vanguard is. But going over these threads I see so many players wanting vanguard to have more "action oriented" combat as well as other additions that quite frankly it could constitute it's own little 'NGE".
I'm not for changing this game into something that drives away the players who stuck with the game for years.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
at 3pm eastern time US i got 256 online on telon, i figure when primetime hits yhere will be a couple hundred more?
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
at 3pm eastern time US i got 256 online on telon, i figure when primetime hits yhere will be a couple hundred more?
Not even close. You may get 400+ during primetime saturday. That's the only day of the week you get that many
Yeah but the population is getting better atm quite slowly but better then the other way
You know
I like vanguard and I support it with a subscription. Have been for little over a year even if I rarely play. It's still a gem. However not once during this year nor now, have I seen any increase. 5 - 6 months ago it had those exact numbers it's showing now.
It's wishful thinking. You may be in a guild that's seeing old members returning but they are offset by people leaving as well. The numbers are basically the same. To prove that point I'm going to continue bumping this thread with online numbers throughout september. After that you can continue claiming an increase with nobody counter arguing it. It won't be a fact though
One of the reasons I made this post to begin with is because, both on this board and in the game am I seeing new players being misled by the community just to get them to subscribe. I can't figure out if people are intentionally lying, ignorant or unrealistic optimists. I get that the VG comminuty really really want to see a flux of new blood to keep the game flowing but I also feel they ought to know exactly how "low" the population is since "low" is a relative term. If they come here for information then at least they subscribe informed. Not this "come back to VG the numbers are starting to boom" crap. It's misleading.
This isn't even a new thing. Last two years, posts have been popping up claiming a rise in numbers and although the numbers have never been as low as they are now. There hasn't been any significant rise of subscribers. It has spiked during free months but quicly settled back again.
at 3pm eastern time US i got 256 online on telon, i figure when primetime hits yhere will be a couple hundred more?
Not even close. You may get 400+ during primetime saturday. That's the only day of the week you get that many
So his guesstimate of 400+ at primetime is not even close because it's really about 400+ at primetime? What did I miss there?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
at 3pm eastern time US i got 256 online on telon, i figure when primetime hits yhere will be a couple hundred more?
Not even close. You may get 400+ during primetime saturday. That's the only day of the week you get that many
So his guesstimate of 400+ at primetime is not even close because it's really about 400+ at primetime? What did I miss there?
You are missing "saturday". There are primetimes during the rest of the weeks 6 days. Obviously saturday is not yesterday the post was made. Which was thursday. Ergo there wouldn't have been a couple of hundred more later that day, nor will there be today.
Primetime in VG is between 7 PM and 11 PM on a weekday
at 3pm eastern time US i got 256 online on telon, i figure when primetime hits yhere will be a couple hundred more?
Not even close. You may get 400+ during primetime saturday. That's the only day of the week you get that many
Yeah but the population is getting better atm quite slowly but better then the other way
You know
I like vanguard and I support it with a subscription. Have been for little over a year even if I rarely play. It's still a gem. However not once during this year nor now, have I seen any increase. 5 - 6 months ago it had those exact numbers it's showing now.
It's wishful thinking. You may be in a guild that's seeing old members returning but they are offset by people leaving as well. The numbers are basically the same. To prove that point I'm going to continue bumping this thread with online numbers throughout september. After that you can continue claiming an increase with nobody counter arguing it. It won't be a fact though
One of the reasons I made this post to begin with is because, both on this board and in the game am I seeing new players being misled by the community just to get them to subscribe. I can't figure out if people are intentionally lying, ignorant or unrealistic optimists. I get that the VG comminuty really really want to see a flux of new blood to keep the game flowing but I also feel they ought to know exactly how "low" the population is since "low" is a relative term. If they come here for information then at least they subscribe informed. Not this "come back to VG the numbers are starting to boom" crap. It's misleading.
This isn't even a new thing. Last two years, posts have been popping up claiming a rise in numbers and although the numbers have never been as low as they are now. There hasn't been any significant rise of subscribers. It has spiked during free months but quicly settled back again.
bs before you hardly seen no one on now you see people all over
at 3pm eastern time US i got 256 online on telon, i figure when primetime hits yhere will be a couple hundred more?
Not even close. You may get 400+ during primetime saturday. That's the only day of the week you get that many
Yeah but the population is getting better atm quite slowly but better then the other way
You know
I like vanguard and I support it with a subscription. Have been for little over a year even if I rarely play. It's still a gem. However not once during this year nor now, have I seen any increase. 5 - 6 months ago it had those exact numbers it's showing now.
It's wishful thinking. You may be in a guild that's seeing old members returning but they are offset by people leaving as well. The numbers are basically the same. To prove that point I'm going to continue bumping this thread with online numbers throughout september. After that you can continue claiming an increase with nobody counter arguing it. It won't be a fact though
One of the reasons I made this post to begin with is because, both on this board and in the game am I seeing new players being misled by the community just to get them to subscribe. I can't figure out if people are intentionally lying, ignorant or unrealistic optimists. I get that the VG comminuty really really want to see a flux of new blood to keep the game flowing but I also feel they ought to know exactly how "low" the population is since "low" is a relative term. If they come here for information then at least they subscribe informed. Not this "come back to VG the numbers are starting to boom" crap. It's misleading.
This isn't even a new thing. Last two years, posts have been popping up claiming a rise in numbers and although the numbers have never been as low as they are now. There hasn't been any significant rise of subscribers. It has spiked during free months but quicly settled back again.
bs before you hardly seen no one on now you see people all over
Not to sound like a troll or anything (because I really do like vg), but can you prove it with pics? Screenshots of people "all over" and post them here?
at 3pm eastern time US i got 256 online on telon, i figure when primetime hits yhere will be a couple hundred more?
Not even close. You may get 400+ during primetime saturday. That's the only day of the week you get that many
Yeah but the population is getting better atm quite slowly but better then the other way
You know
I like vanguard and I support it with a subscription. Have been for little over a year even if I rarely play. It's still a gem. However not once during this year nor now, have I seen any increase. 5 - 6 months ago it had those exact numbers it's showing now.
It's wishful thinking. You may be in a guild that's seeing old members returning but they are offset by people leaving as well. The numbers are basically the same. To prove that point I'm going to continue bumping this thread with online numbers throughout september. After that you can continue claiming an increase with nobody counter arguing it. It won't be a fact though
One of the reasons I made this post to begin with is because, both on this board and in the game am I seeing new players being misled by the community just to get them to subscribe. I can't figure out if people are intentionally lying, ignorant or unrealistic optimists. I get that the VG comminuty really really want to see a flux of new blood to keep the game flowing but I also feel they ought to know exactly how "low" the population is since "low" is a relative term. If they come here for information then at least they subscribe informed. Not this "come back to VG the numbers are starting to boom" crap. It's misleading.
This isn't even a new thing. Last two years, posts have been popping up claiming a rise in numbers and although the numbers have never been as low as they are now. There hasn't been any significant rise of subscribers. It has spiked during free months but quicly settled back again.
bs before you hardly seen no one on now you see people all over
Hate to tell you this but numbers don't lie. Anyone is free to log on and do a '/who count all' if they think I'm full of bs. Including you.
Hate to be negative but the population count includes those with 45 days free play still, and there's no telling how many will subscribe when their 45 days free runs out. Vanguard can see population increase by going free to play, but I bet Smed just does not want to waste money on VG anymore. In order to make VG f2p, they would need to allocate programmers and designers to create cash shop items. Free to play games function based on what ingame items/services they sell. So it's not as easy as flipping the subscription model.
They'd need to design zones, items, potions, etc.. to entice people to purchase them. Again all this take programming/dev/art time, and they probably don't have anybody to spare right now. They're working on Planetside 2 and Everquest 3, both are large projects. What SOE is really doing is to simply dangle players along in Vanguard, and hope that people wiill automatically switch to EQ3 when they launch it. I mean VG was supposed to be the next generation EQ1 anyway, so SOE would probably want to create their own next generation EQ1.
Anyways, play Vanguard if you still have fun, and lower your expectations. You'll be fine
I have played just about everything out there and Vanguard really is a good game and I really hope more people will give it a legitimate try. Sure, this will probably just hold me over until SWTOR, GW2 or Secret World, but it really is an enjoyable world to "live" in and "play" in. I finally subsribed to it a few weeks ago after many trials over the years and I kick myself for not really embracing such a nice game. If SOE would have continued supporting Vanguard over the years, I could see this truly being the best game on the market right now! As it stands though, it is well worth a try. Others, like myself, who are tired of all the BS out there, just might find themselves a competent place to hang their hats for a while!
The trend in this thread is numbers rising slowly.
Does it harm anyone if players want their game to be successful no not really, did Vanguard deserve to fail when it launched yes, but do those people enjoying it for what it is now deserve to be ridiculed? no.
I used to hate what Vanguard stood for, I tried playing it and found that the character graphics sucked (sorry but they do, the world might look nice but the characters always looked to me like they were animated marrionettes) I found that there were a lot of little pesky bugs that stopped me upgrading from a trial to a full account.
But then i thought, you know what, EVERY MMO that is event slightly different to the others is a good thing, if a couple of thousand people enjoy it then good for them. Every bit of content thats different to what other games do is a way in which a developer has tried something different and every bit of competition in the market is the one that has the potential to drive change and consumerism.
So now I am glad for games like Vanguard, even if I disagree with a lot of Sonys decisions I am glad for the game, I am glad for the cryptics and the Funcoms too. Because even if they failed on so many levels with past releases each failure is a potential leasson to other developers and eventually some one will try something new and get it right.
If SOE would have continued supporting Vanguard over the years, I could see this truly being the best game on the market right now!
Its a niche game and would always be a niche game. SoE spent almost two years fully supporting VG post-sigil acquisition. Greatly improved performance, squashed bugs, added content. But the population dropped...and dropped...and dropped...The more they did, the less players they had even though people raved about the game and noted it was in far better shape than launch.
There comes a time when you have to cut your losses. SoE (most likely) lost a ton of money trying to fix VG up. Now they run it on life support because thats all the game can be afforded.
I may come back, if they really start putting time/money into the game, if not, it will just be a great game that was left to waste by SoE.
They had promised a relaunch, long ago, and it never happend, for whatever reason....So I will wait and see, I will not give my money, until I see though.
Comments
SoE recently announced that they would be releasing new content for Vanguard. I wonder when that is happening...
Thats about 3 times as many as Gods and Heroes gets lol
The 1st years Vg did have the support, after SOE took over from Sigil, they roled out so many bug fixes not to mention a good amounth of content, but most players already left and the ones that stayed.. slowly left as well.
Sadly it makes sense that a company stops investing in something as they did, except instead of shutting the game down like others have done in the past with their products they left the servers up. There's a difference.
Still is a shame though VG is/was an amasing game.
400 online 9:30pm Eastern on a Tuesday night....Game is really becoming populated.
Rubberbanding happened during the first days, I cannot log in but my friend did. There were too many people in the same zone. The hardware was not good enough for the fancy graphical effects, so a lot of display issues. The fighting is still ok, only that the display sometimes fails to match perfectly. That happens in many games.
I do not have that problem when I successfully log on my own. My display card is much better and I join one of the newer servers. That suggested to me that it is a population issue, too many graphical effects, too many people in proximity.
I do not recall server crash, I read about someone saying some of the DCs are due to excess traffic, I never have DC myself. Queues are really long, that is very true and it took many new servers to spread them out. I actually rerolled in 4 new servers before I settled down, as our friends move from server to server to avoid the "horde".
296 People online right now. Telon Server. Nothing hidden by /anon. Not this chunk only
I didn't miss any point. Vanguard has a die hard fanbase who actually like the game and stuck with it even though the game was on borrowed time.
I can't name a game that didnt' eventually add a content patch that didn't piss off the core fanbase and make them start screaming.
I like the way that Vanguard is and I've paid a subscription for years. Would I want more content and a better supported game? Um, sure I suppose, why not! Though I certainly haven't seen all the game has to offer.
But would I want developers to change the timbre of the game in the name of "development'? no.
So sure, you're right there are a lot of players who aren't going to go to Vanguard because there aren't a lot of content updates. But there ARE players who stuck with the game because they like it, warts and all.
We play the game on our own terms and I'm sure we are certain the game is on borrowed time, as I mentioned above.
As far as "thinking about ourselves" sorry but I"m a customer and I pay for what I want and don't pay for what I don't want. If the game offers something I want then I'm there and if it does't then I'm not. We all have that choice.
This is not a club. I don't care if some players are turned off of the game because there aren't regular updates. BUT it's a catch 22. I care that the game lives on and in order to live on it needs players. In order to get more players the game needs to have updates. If the game has updates it might turn into something that I'm not interested in playing.
What can I say? I'm content the way the game is now, I'd welcome updates if they didn't take the game to a place I hated. I'd welcome updates if they attracted like minded players who love the thrust of what Vanguard is. But going over these threads I see so many players wanting vanguard to have more "action oriented" combat as well as other additions that quite frankly it could constitute it's own little 'NGE".
I'm not for changing this game into something that drives away the players who stuck with the game for years.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
at 3pm eastern time US i got 256 online on telon, i figure when primetime hits yhere will be a couple hundred more?
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
Dwight D Eisenhower
My optimism wears heavy boots and is loud.
Henry Rollins
Not even close. You may get 400+ during primetime saturday. That's the only day of the week you get that many
Yeah but the population is getting better atm quite slowly but better then the other way
You know
I like vanguard and I support it with a subscription. Have been for little over a year even if I rarely play. It's still a gem. However not once during this year nor now, have I seen any increase. 5 - 6 months ago it had those exact numbers it's showing now.
It's wishful thinking. You may be in a guild that's seeing old members returning but they are offset by people leaving as well. The numbers are basically the same. To prove that point I'm going to continue bumping this thread with online numbers throughout september. After that you can continue claiming an increase with nobody counter arguing it. It won't be a fact though
One of the reasons I made this post to begin with is because, both on this board and in the game am I seeing new players being misled by the community just to get them to subscribe. I can't figure out if people are intentionally lying, ignorant or unrealistic optimists. I get that the VG comminuty really really want to see a flux of new blood to keep the game flowing but I also feel they ought to know exactly how "low" the population is since "low" is a relative term. If they come here for information then at least they subscribe informed. Not this "come back to VG the numbers are starting to boom" crap. It's misleading.
This isn't even a new thing. Last two years, posts have been popping up claiming a rise in numbers and although the numbers have never been as low as they are now. There hasn't been any significant rise of subscribers. It has spiked during free months but quicly settled back again.
So his guesstimate of 400+ at primetime is not even close because it's really about 400+ at primetime? What did I miss there?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
You are missing "saturday". There are primetimes during the rest of the weeks 6 days. Obviously saturday is not yesterday the post was made. Which was thursday. Ergo there wouldn't have been a couple of hundred more later that day, nor will there be today.
Primetime in VG is between 7 PM and 11 PM on a weekday
345 players online at 6 PM PST Friday evening
bs before you hardly seen no one on now you see people all over
Not to sound like a troll or anything (because I really do like vg), but can you prove it with pics? Screenshots of people "all over" and post them here?
Hate to tell you this but numbers don't lie. Anyone is free to log on and do a '/who count all' if they think I'm full of bs. Including you.
Hate to be negative but the population count includes those with 45 days free play still, and there's no telling how many will subscribe when their 45 days free runs out. Vanguard can see population increase by going free to play, but I bet Smed just does not want to waste money on VG anymore. In order to make VG f2p, they would need to allocate programmers and designers to create cash shop items. Free to play games function based on what ingame items/services they sell. So it's not as easy as flipping the subscription model.
They'd need to design zones, items, potions, etc.. to entice people to purchase them. Again all this take programming/dev/art time, and they probably don't have anybody to spare right now. They're working on Planetside 2 and Everquest 3, both are large projects. What SOE is really doing is to simply dangle players along in Vanguard, and hope that people wiill automatically switch to EQ3 when they launch it. I mean VG was supposed to be the next generation EQ1 anyway, so SOE would probably want to create their own next generation EQ1.
Anyways, play Vanguard if you still have fun, and lower your expectations. You'll be fine
EQ1-AC1-DAOC-FFXI-L2-EQ2-WoW-DDO-GW-LoTR-VG-WAR-GW2-ESO
I would also like to note that this http://mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/296255/Another-population-count-.html was from last year. The game doesn't even reach those numbers on fridays these days.
So no, the numbers are not going up. They are going down and have been consistantly so
I have played just about everything out there and Vanguard really is a good game and I really hope more people will give it a legitimate try. Sure, this will probably just hold me over until SWTOR, GW2 or Secret World, but it really is an enjoyable world to "live" in and "play" in. I finally subsribed to it a few weeks ago after many trials over the years and I kick myself for not really embracing such a nice game. If SOE would have continued supporting Vanguard over the years, I could see this truly being the best game on the market right now! As it stands though, it is well worth a try. Others, like myself, who are tired of all the BS out there, just might find themselves a competent place to hang their hats for a while!
The trend in this thread is numbers rising slowly.
Does it harm anyone if players want their game to be successful no not really, did Vanguard deserve to fail when it launched yes, but do those people enjoying it for what it is now deserve to be ridiculed? no.
I used to hate what Vanguard stood for, I tried playing it and found that the character graphics sucked (sorry but they do, the world might look nice but the characters always looked to me like they were animated marrionettes) I found that there were a lot of little pesky bugs that stopped me upgrading from a trial to a full account.
But then i thought, you know what, EVERY MMO that is event slightly different to the others is a good thing, if a couple of thousand people enjoy it then good for them. Every bit of content thats different to what other games do is a way in which a developer has tried something different and every bit of competition in the market is the one that has the potential to drive change and consumerism.
So now I am glad for games like Vanguard, even if I disagree with a lot of Sonys decisions I am glad for the game, I am glad for the cryptics and the Funcoms too. Because even if they failed on so many levels with past releases each failure is a potential leasson to other developers and eventually some one will try something new and get it right.
Vanguard > EQ2
Its a niche game and would always be a niche game. SoE spent almost two years fully supporting VG post-sigil acquisition. Greatly improved performance, squashed bugs, added content. But the population dropped...and dropped...and dropped...The more they did, the less players they had even though people raved about the game and noted it was in far better shape than launch.
There comes a time when you have to cut your losses. SoE (most likely) lost a ton of money trying to fix VG up. Now they run it on life support because thats all the game can be afforded.
No
The thrend in this thread is numbers taken over different days. It is obvious numbers are going to be higher when counted over the weekend.
That is the differential you are seeing in this thread
I may come back, if they really start putting time/money into the game, if not, it will just be a great game that was left to waste by SoE.
They had promised a relaunch, long ago, and it never happend, for whatever reason....So I will wait and see, I will not give my money, until I see though.