Ya, that makes sense, I should do a solo quest or kill some little spider and voila raid quality gear.
If you cant find a few good real life friends to group with and have fun in groups to do high end content. Then maybe you should quit MMO's leave your moms basement and make some friends.
As for myself, I see the point of MMO's to , wait for it............play with other people, wow imagine that.
As far as soloing, I agree it has its place in even the MMO world, but sorry to say, the best of the best stuff should be done in groups.
Just give everyone the best gear right out of the door. That is what I hear from a lot of the solo whining within this thread. It's likely that eighty percent or more of this game is going to be solo-friendly. What you do with that content, well that's your prerogative. I'm actually surprised nobody has stepped up and allowed players to raid from the beginning. Why save it as an end-game-only activity?
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Well first off let me say; I don't normally agree with a lot of the ToR bashers on these forums, but in this regard to WoW clone and BW not changing things up. It looks like the trolls and ToR bashers where right, BW are following in the exact same footsteps as WoW and Rift. Basically if you want good gear in ToR it's raid or pvp,even crafting good gear means you have to raid for the mats. So it looks like the solo players gets it up the rear once again, you only have two options in which to progress your character at endgame. PvP or raid, I like raiding and I like pvp but I don't like for that to be the only option as far as progression goes. I have been doing that same old song and dance for the last ten years and quiet frankly it loses it's appeal very quickly, the whole solo planet thing is probably nothing but a daily quest grind as is seen in WoW and Rift. Well it looks like ToR might be off the table for me, seeing as to how I am pretty much tired and burnt out on the whole raid and pvp gear grind. Here are some links and quotes for those that are interested.
Sorry bro, its not following in the footsteps of WoW. Its following in the footsteps of almost every MMO ever made. Companies spend millions of dollars making group content. Then they spend millions more making their game playable with thousands of other people at the same time.
Why wouldn't they make group play the focus of the game? Seriously, I enjoy soloing as much as everyone else. But I don't make friends and pay $15 a month to play KOTOR 3, I do it to play an MMO.
The irony is that GW1 has heroes/henchmen and SWTOR will have companions, meanwhile, GW2 won't have any companions/henchmen, and yet it's focusing on wanting people to socialize with group content.
In other words: If you want group content (items, crafting, gear, etc.), it will require "groups".
Solo players aren't getting shafted in SWTOR. I'm pretty sure if i researched enough, i would find plenty of content for solo players.
I just wish there was a better system for PVE content other than 'raid or die'
I mean. I don't mind grouping. It's just large scale grouping with coordination eating up your free time that becomes a hassle and should be some thing special rather than a 'do this once a week at minimum.'
A better system would be you could get higher tier gear more quickly if you did operations. How ever if you prefer to group small for the flash points, you should be able to get the same gear, albeit a bit slower. ie. a lower drop rate.
But if they keep the system of 'raid or die'.
I'm satisfied with the new open world PVP being released. That'll be my 'end game.'
Well, if you could solo and get the same gear as people who do raids, then it would seem unfair.
It's not really a new thing to have some of the best gear only accessable via group content. I don't see a way they could do it to where solo players get good gear without it feeling like group and raiders are getting the shaft.
It's not really a new thing that you could solo and get the best gear either. Lineage did it. A player could solo hard content and get the best gear. They could group up for safety and faster acquisition but there was not boundary between gear for groups or solo. There was just good gear.
This game won't be any different than other MMOs on the market. It's a raid or die at end game that they are parroting from WoW, EQ/EQ2, LotRO, AoC, etc. This game will be different because it's heavily voiced and that's about it. I'm imagining Tortage for a good portion of the game. Other than that it will parrot traditional MMO gimmicks and traps from a different angle.
I'm not sure there is a dev studio out there right now that has both the balls and the ability to pull off engaging game content for multiple play styles (from solo to raid) while also providing golden paths to top tier gear (notice I don't call it raid gear).
I'm sure this game will be fun and wildly successful and I'll be watching how it progresses. It's not going to usher in a new paradigm or change the world. It will be just another MMO option with great voiceovers.
the old saying "You can't make everyone happy all the time" Asking for a game that can make all playstyles happy is IMO impossible its not that the Devs lack Balls its just simply impossible. To make one playstyle happy you have to take from another. You can't have a game thats 100% solo perfect 100% group perfect and 100% raid perfect as each playstyle has certain points that aren't shared well with other playstyles
Players tend to demand the earth and the moon and everything else but not stop to think that their requests really are fairly obsurd. Sure ask for more from your games but at lest try and stay partially grounded in sense and reality.( not directing this to the poster of this message just players in general)
In the end it doesn't matter what the any dev anywhere does there will always be people like the OP here that bitch and moan if the games not exactly their imaged fantasy perfect game.
It doesn't have to please everyone. It has to offer a reasonable path of achievement to everyone. Are you seriously trying to posit that the only possible reasonable paradigm is raid or die? That is ridiculous.
How about this? What if you could only use raid gear in raids, not in small groups, not in pvp, and not in overland missions. I could accept that raid gear is only needed for raiders if they can only use it in raids. If soloers don't need raid gear then why do raiders need to use it outside of the raid instance? They don't.
LOl this is too funny. The game "has to offer reasonable path of achievement to everybody"?????? seriously? How are people who only solo different then people who raid? You make it sound like solo'ers are some kind suppressed race of people or something. Give me a break. Its an MMO. Its a video game. This has nothing to do with minoritites or even majorities. It has everything to do with people not wanting to participate in the entire game and still want to recieve every benefit from the game. There are plenty of boring crap, or content I felt was nearly impossible to play, or didn;t enjoy 100% in 100's of other games I've played. And you know what, I either took the good with the bad or just sat the game down and tried something else if it was too bad.
So either you like to play SWTOR to its fullest or you don't. If you only like part of the game, then just like every other fricken game out there you will only benefit and experience part of the game.
And no, I'm not a raider. And yes, I don;t mind that I won;t be getting the best gear in the game. I only hope to be viable when I do other things then solo content.
The irony is that GW1 has heroes/henchmen and SWTOR will have companions, meanwhile, GW2 won't have any companions/henchmen, and yet it's focusing on wanting people to socialize with group content.
In other words: If you want group content (items, crafting, gear, etc.), it will require "groups".
Solo players aren't getting shafted in SWTOR. I'm pretty sure if i researched enough, i would find plenty of content for solo players.
Group content is anything that requires more than one person to accomplish. The rewards for it are just trappings. The content is what you run to achieve those rewards.
Besides, I think most soloists are fine with running small group content in specific situations because we all have at least a few people on our list that we like to play with. The problem arises from content that requires us to become just a one more sheep in the raid herd. The raider drones seem to think that because we don't enjoy flushing our time down the toilet by spending our leisure hours with obnoxious, whining prima donnas that we don't want to be challenged. Untrue. Hard is good and it can be done with less than a full stable of 20 or 40 mewling windbags.
And as far as the trappings themselves go, you can keep 'em. I'm not in for the preening and dueling epeens. I just want to see the content that I'm helping to fund. Any reward that's given is a bonus. Raiders may enjoy chasing their stupid little carrots, but I'm too busy taking in the sights to bother with it.
Originally posted by Unlight Originally posted by observer The irony is that GW1 has heroes/henchmen and SWTOR will have companions, meanwhile, GW2 won't have any companions/henchmen, and yet it's focusing on wanting people to socialize with group content. In other words: If you want group content (items, crafting, gear, etc.), it will require "groups". Solo players aren't getting shafted in SWTOR. I'm pretty sure if i researched enough, i would find plenty of content for solo players.
Group content is anything that requires more than one person to accomplish. The rewards for it are just trappings. The content is what you run to achieve those rewards. Besides, I think most soloists are fine with running small group content in specific situations because we all have at least a few people on our list that we like to play with. The problem arises from content that requires us to become just a one more sheep in the raid herd. The raider drones seem to think that because we don't enjoy flushing our time down the toilet by spending our leisure hours with obnoxious, whining prima donnas that we don't want to be challenged. Untrue. Hard is good and it can be done with less than a full stable of 20 or 40 mewling windbags. And as far as the trappings themselves go, you can keep 'em. I'm not in for the preening and dueling epeens. I just want to see the content that I'm helping to fund. Any reward that's given is a bonus. Raiders may enjoy chasing their stupid little carrots, but I'm too busy taking in the sights to bother with it. I agree with this. I want to get my moneys worth out of an mmo. I dont care about the raid loot, I just want to see the content a few times. Thats whats great about ToR, I can literally see 100% of all the game content with 8 people or less. That is an easy number to reach. I have 6 friends that are going to be playing with me so we're practically there without even trying.
The irony is that GW1 has heroes/henchmen and SWTOR will have companions, meanwhile, GW2 won't have any companions/henchmen, and yet it's focusing on wanting people to socialize with group content.
In other words: If you want group content (items, crafting, gear, etc.), it will require "groups".
Solo players aren't getting shafted in SWTOR. I'm pretty sure if i researched enough, i would find plenty of content for solo players.
Group content is anything that requires more than one person to accomplish. The rewards for it are just trappings. The content is what you run to achieve those rewards.
Besides, I think most soloists are fine with running small group content in specific situations because we all have at least a few people on our list that we like to play with. The problem arises from content that requires us to become just a one more sheep in the raid herd. The raider drones seem to think that because we don't enjoy flushing our time down the toilet by spending our leisure hours with obnoxious, whining prima donnas that we don't want to be challenged. Untrue. Hard is good and it can be done with less than a full stable of 20 or 40 mewling windbags.
And as far as the trappings themselves go, you can keep 'em. I'm not in for the preening and dueling epeens. I just want to see the content that I'm helping to fund. Any reward that's given is a bonus. Raiders may enjoy chasing their stupid little carrots, but I'm too busy taking in the sights to bother with it.
I agree with this. I want to get my moneys worth out of an mmo. I dont care about the raid loot, I just want to see the content a few times. Thats whats great about ToR, I can literally see 100% of all the game content with 8 people or less. That is an easy number to reach. I have 6 friends that are going to be playing with me so we're practically there without even trying.
+1
I've done my share of raiding, and to be honest I'm tired of it. The challenges of raiding are primarily gone in most games on top of that. The hardest part of raiding nowadays is primarily getting people to pay attention. I do enjoy challenging games, but I don't want to be forced to play with a bunch of people who may be some of the most obnoxious on the server, just so I can get competitive gear. To say that this is somehow fair / necessary is also pretty ludicrous. Other games have found other mechanics to keep their games balanced and fun.
The irony is that GW1 has heroes/henchmen and SWTOR will have companions, meanwhile, GW2 won't have any companions/henchmen, and yet it's focusing on wanting people to socialize with group content.
In other words: If you want group content (items, crafting, gear, etc.), it will require "groups".
Solo players aren't getting shafted in SWTOR. I'm pretty sure if i researched enough, i would find plenty of content for solo players.
Group content is anything that requires more than one person to accomplish. The rewards for it are just trappings. The content is what you run to achieve those rewards.
Besides, I think most soloists are fine with running small group content in specific situations because we all have at least a few people on our list that we like to play with. The problem arises from content that requires us to become just a one more sheep in the raid herd. The raider drones seem to think that because we don't enjoy flushing our time down the toilet by spending our leisure hours with obnoxious, whining prima donnas that we don't want to be challenged. Untrue. Hard is good and it can be done with less than a full stable of 20 or 40 mewling windbags.
And as far as the trappings themselves go, you can keep 'em. I'm not in for the preening and dueling epeens. I just want to see the content that I'm helping to fund. Any reward that's given is a bonus. Raiders may enjoy chasing their stupid little carrots, but I'm too busy taking in the sights to bother with it.
I agree with this. I want to get my moneys worth out of an mmo. I dont care about the raid loot, I just want to see the content a few times. Thats whats great about ToR, I can literally see 100% of all the game content with 8 people or less. That is an easy number to reach. I have 6 friends that are going to be playing with me so we're practically there without even trying.
+1
I've done my share of raiding, and to be honest I'm tired of it. The challenges of raiding are primarily gone in most games on top of that. The hardest part of raiding nowadays is primarily getting people to pay attention. I do enjoy challenging games, but I don't want to be forced to play with a bunch of people who may be some of the most obnoxious on the server, just so I can get competitive gear. To say that this is somehow fair / necessary is also pretty ludicrous. Other games have found other mechanics to keep their games balanced and fun.
Originally posted by Xondar123 A raid in WoW used to mean 40 players. A "raid" in TOR means 8. If you can't find 8 players to play with, then you must be doing something terribly wrong.
hehe. You tell somebody that all of ToR's content can be seen with 8 or less players and they will scream, "Thats not an MMO!"
Then you tell them that the best gear comes from raid content and they scream, "Theyre screwing solo players!!"
Then you tell them that you can solo to max level and they scream "This is a lobby game!"
Then you show them objective based world pvp and they scream "Its not gonna be balanced!!!"
So you show them instanced capture the flag pvp and they scream "It BREAKS IMMERSION!"
I just wish there was a better system for PVE content other than 'raid or die'
I mean. I don't mind grouping. It's just large scale grouping with coordination eating up your free time that becomes a hassle and should be some thing special rather than a 'do this once a week at minimum.'
A better system would be you could get higher tier gear more quickly if you did operations. How ever if you prefer to group small for the flash points, you should be able to get the same gear, albeit a bit slower. ie. a lower drop rate.
But if they keep the system of 'raid or die'.
I'm satisfied with the new open world PVP being released. That'll be my 'end game.'
For the most part, your idea makes a lot of sense. Alas thats not in the cards, anything < end game raiding = -10% efficiency. They say there is a PvP gear alternative but we will how equal that system is to Operations and Flashpoints...how long will it take for us to revert back to calling them raids and heroics?
A raid in WoW used to mean 40 players. A "raid" in TOR means 8.
If you can't find 8 players to play with, then you must be doing something terribly wrong.
hehe. You tell somebody that all of ToR's content can be seen with 8 or less players and they will scream, "Thats not an MMO!"
Then you tell them that the best gear comes from raid content and they scream, "Theyre screwing solo players!!"
Then you tell them that you can solo to max level and they scream "This is a lobby game!"
Then you show them objective based world pvp and they scream "Its not gonna be balanced!!!"
So you show them instanced capture the flag pvp and they scream "It BREAKS IMMERSION!"
Are you effin kidding me....
The sad thing is that the OP picked the arbitrary number of "5 players" for the game to be solo friendly in his opinion. In City of Heroes, 8 players is the max super team size.
The OP is practically foaming at the mouth over a difference of three players? Has there ever been a smaller non-issue?
Raid or die was exactly why I stopped playing Rift after 1.5 month, despite having 3-month sub paid. It's sad to see same thing in ToR. To be honest I don't mind that there is a content for big groups. But I think there are better solutions than forcing people to hardcore raid or skip content and gear progression. Raiding and hardcore raiding guilds are like 2nd job, been there, done that.
Then I'm for 3-6 people group content at end game(or yet better scalable content, valid trough the whole game). I mean group content has more complexity and thus more challenge(than solo), but at raid point it's more about cat herding then each player skill. Still gear rewards should be at very same level as solo. I'm up for special titles, cosmetics or achievements though.
Originally posted by crazynanny Raid or die was exactly why I stopped playing Rift after 1.5 month, despite having 3-month sub paid. It's sad to see same thing in ToR. To be honest I don't mind that there is a content for big groups. But I think there are better solutions than forcing people to hardcore raid or skip content and gear progression. Raiding and hardcore raiding guilds are like 2nd job, been there, done that.Then I'm for 3-6 people group content at end game(or yet better scalable content, valid trough the whole game). I mean group content has more complexity and thus more challenge(than solo), but at raid point it's more about cat herding then each player skill. Still gear rewards should be at very same level as solo. I'm up for special titles, cosmetics or achievements though.
So you can tolerate 6 man content but 8 is just way too much?
I read that Rift is releasing solo and two person instances in 1.5 patch. I think that's awesome and may actually bring me back to the game.
Regarding SWTOR, I am just relieved that this round I only have to find SEVEN other people I like and try and get them to all show up and be consistent. I don't want to be in a big, impersonal, raiding guild... I like small intimate groups of friendly people, but I also like seeing all the content a game has to offer. I always end up missing out on the last big instances because I won't give in and join a bigger guild. Maybe this game I'll actually get the chance to experience it all.
While sometimes it is unfortunate... the game developers can't cater to everyones wants in a game. It only makes sense to do what will make the majority happy. However, I do agree that sometimes I wish that there was less of the "raid or die" structure to most games nowadays. How this is possible... I'm not entirely sure, but it would be neat to see it for a change. I am a fan of the tiered gear system(acquiring gear to be able to do more difficult encounters), so maybe instead of just raiding there were some sort of solo or open world bossing needed at a certain point for further gear progression that is almost needed unless carried through. Btw, I would love to hear other paths and opinions.
Now that I'm finished with that... why do those of you want endgame gear and dont want to do party based activities to acquire them want that gear? In no way do I think you are wrong for this, I am just simply wondering. My take on gearing yourself for endgame:
1.) Dungeons to upgrade to blues from leveling greens.
2.) "Heroics" to upgrade to epics from dungeon blues.
3.) "Raids" to upgrade to better epics from "Heroic" epics.
and then in case you liked my idea...
1.) The same as above
2.) The same as above/crafted gear
3.)Raiding/Solo/Open World Bossing in some sort of alternating order
The way I see it is... if you want the best PvE gear in the game, in an MMO, it only makes sense to do the party based progression system. If there was a system to have the best gear in the game from exclusively solo content... I dont see a way for it to co-exist with the tiered system, and not having the tiered system would make it largely more unpopular, especially if implemented terribly. If you did a solo dungeon to have the same gear as me, while I did mine in raiding, what reason(besides looking cool) do you want it for and what would keep you interested and wanting to play the game if it only took you 5 hours to get to where I am? For those of you with little time and love MMO's, I honestly can't think of a solution for you... and that is unfortunate.
Developers are thinking longevity, if the game doesn't keep you wanting to play... they lose all the money they spent years developing the game everyone had fun with for maybe 2 months then comes F2P model and possibly shut down as we have seen time and time again. Again, I don't think anyone is wrong for what they like or believe... but I would like to know how you could keep it interesting to the masses with some of the things only loved by a smaller majority. Us MMO players are the hardest to please, if theres little partying were upset, if theres large amounts of partying were upset... when will we be satisfied. =D
I don't want to be in a big, impersonal, raiding guild... I like small intimate groups of friendly people, but I also like seeing all the content a game has to offer. I always end up missing out on the last big instances because I won't give in and join a bigger guild. Maybe this game I'll actually get the chance to experience it all.
I play the same exact way, and I can't wait to see how ToR plays out.
The worst thing about Raiding is Raiders, the most miserable whiney crybabies I have ever met, and the holy trinity raid grind paradigm forces you to be stuck in a dungeion with them for hours. In a sane universe I could put on my pvp gear and murder them while they try to kill scripted raid monsters.
Well in an upcoming patch Rift will be offering solo and small group dungeons for one, in which you can acquire some pretty decent gear. Not the best but also not the worst, as far as GW2 goes you can pretty much join in on the events if you are in the area. The game doesn't go from a fun leveling experience to an all out raid or die endgame, GW2 is more persistant. To be honest I was one of the biggest bashers of GW2, but after hearing the ToR announcements GW2 is looking like the better game, even Rift will be better than ToR after 1.5. After the personal story runs out than what? If you want to do endgame story content, guess what? that's in the operations. The whole solo planet thing is just another way of saying repeatable dailies. I was one of the biggest fanbois of ToR and couldn't nothing negative be said about it, without me coming to the defense. But now it looks like the raiders win out again, BW pretty much feed us bullshit back in 2008 when they said they weren't going after the raiding crowd.
I'm going to come off as a jerk on this one, and I apologize in advance.
Your point is rendered moot when you defeat your own argument. In SWTOR, you can craft or do 4 man Flashpoints and get "decent gear. Not the best but also not the worst". So your argument against SWTOR comes from your hypocracy, and not with the developers. As Foomerang already pointed out, the gear you'll get from crafters and Flashpoints will be more than enough for you to do whatever you want in the game.
I mean, honestly, you're complaining about having to play with other people on a MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER game. There's a key word in that accronym that should tell you that if you want a solo experience, that you should just stick to single player games. If you want a "small group" dynamic, that's fine, stick to the Flashpoints and don't raid. But just because your personal hermit nature restricts your ability to play end game material, doesn't mean that it has to affect those who actually want to raid and enjoy playing MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER games. The only person who is restricting your ability to play and have a positive experience with SWTOR is yourself, not the developers. You contradict your own argument, thus your argument is moot and pointless.
I read that Rift is releasing solo and two person instances in 1.5 patch. I think that's awesome and may actually bring me back to the game.
Regarding SWTOR, I am just relieved that this round I only have to find SEVEN other people I like and try and get them to all show up and be consistent. I don't want to be in a big, impersonal, raiding guild... I like small intimate groups of friendly people, but I also like seeing all the content a game has to offer. I always end up missing out on the last big instances because I won't give in and join a bigger guild. Maybe this game I'll actually get the chance to experience it all.
Define an big and Impersonal guild? I've played WoW with my EQ guild, which was a defacto "pro guild" 1st world wides in EQ, and WoW. That guild was the least impersonal group i can think of, it was tighter than most families, people know each other, many traveled from coast to coast to meat one an other, had phone lists of everyone and people and much more, and and after switching to the EU servers i never could find another home like the one i had
And these days in WoW with 10man raids it's even easier to get a tight group of friends to raid with, how hard is it to gather a 10man group of IRL and in-game friends? And in ToR its even easier, 16 and 8 man raids?
First off: Think What mmo stands for. (Massive MULTI-PLAYER Online), in other terms its not really ment for solo play, Its a massive co-op and competitive game, I.E PvP
Second: if you could get the best gear in the game by playing it solo then wtf would be the point in making it online to begin with everyone would just do that.
Third: There will still be plenty to do solo whether it be questing, crafting, making money or just queing for pvp and light raiding.
First off: Think What mmo stands for. (Massive MULTI-PLAYER Online), in other terms its not really ment for solo play, Its a massive co-op and competitive game, I.E PvP
Just saying.
No really, REALLY think about what Multiplayer stands for. In no way does it mean that you must play with the other masses of players. It only means that you're playing a game with other players, but not necessarily together!
{a mode of play involving more than one player at one time in a computer or video game}
Comments
Ya, that makes sense, I should do a solo quest or kill some little spider and voila raid quality gear.
If you cant find a few good real life friends to group with and have fun in groups to do high end content. Then maybe you should quit MMO's leave your moms basement and make some friends.
As for myself, I see the point of MMO's to , wait for it............play with other people, wow imagine that.
As far as soloing, I agree it has its place in even the MMO world, but sorry to say, the best of the best stuff should be done in groups.
Just give everyone the best gear right out of the door. That is what I hear from a lot of the solo whining within this thread. It's likely that eighty percent or more of this game is going to be solo-friendly. What you do with that content, well that's your prerogative. I'm actually surprised nobody has stepped up and allowed players to raid from the beginning. Why save it as an end-game-only activity?
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Sorry bro, its not following in the footsteps of WoW. Its following in the footsteps of almost every MMO ever made. Companies spend millions of dollars making group content. Then they spend millions more making their game playable with thousands of other people at the same time.
Why wouldn't they make group play the focus of the game? Seriously, I enjoy soloing as much as everyone else. But I don't make friends and pay $15 a month to play KOTOR 3, I do it to play an MMO.
The irony is that GW1 has heroes/henchmen and SWTOR will have companions, meanwhile, GW2 won't have any companions/henchmen, and yet it's focusing on wanting people to socialize with group content.
In other words: If you want group content (items, crafting, gear, etc.), it will require "groups".
Solo players aren't getting shafted in SWTOR. I'm pretty sure if i researched enough, i would find plenty of content for solo players.
I just wish there was a better system for PVE content other than 'raid or die'
I mean. I don't mind grouping. It's just large scale grouping with coordination eating up your free time that becomes a hassle and should be some thing special rather than a 'do this once a week at minimum.'
A better system would be you could get higher tier gear more quickly if you did operations. How ever if you prefer to group small for the flash points, you should be able to get the same gear, albeit a bit slower. ie. a lower drop rate.
But if they keep the system of 'raid or die'.
I'm satisfied with the new open world PVP being released. That'll be my 'end game.'
-Azure Prower
http://www.youtube.com/AzurePrower
LOl this is too funny. The game "has to offer reasonable path of achievement to everybody"?????? seriously? How are people who only solo different then people who raid? You make it sound like solo'ers are some kind suppressed race of people or something. Give me a break. Its an MMO. Its a video game. This has nothing to do with minoritites or even majorities. It has everything to do with people not wanting to participate in the entire game and still want to recieve every benefit from the game. There are plenty of boring crap, or content I felt was nearly impossible to play, or didn;t enjoy 100% in 100's of other games I've played. And you know what, I either took the good with the bad or just sat the game down and tried something else if it was too bad.
So either you like to play SWTOR to its fullest or you don't. If you only like part of the game, then just like every other fricken game out there you will only benefit and experience part of the game.
And no, I'm not a raider. And yes, I don;t mind that I won;t be getting the best gear in the game. I only hope to be viable when I do other things then solo content.
Group content is anything that requires more than one person to accomplish. The rewards for it are just trappings. The content is what you run to achieve those rewards.
Besides, I think most soloists are fine with running small group content in specific situations because we all have at least a few people on our list that we like to play with. The problem arises from content that requires us to become just a one more sheep in the raid herd. The raider drones seem to think that because we don't enjoy flushing our time down the toilet by spending our leisure hours with obnoxious, whining prima donnas that we don't want to be challenged. Untrue. Hard is good and it can be done with less than a full stable of 20 or 40 mewling windbags.
And as far as the trappings themselves go, you can keep 'em. I'm not in for the preening and dueling epeens. I just want to see the content that I'm helping to fund. Any reward that's given is a bonus. Raiders may enjoy chasing their stupid little carrots, but I'm too busy taking in the sights to bother with it.
Besides, I think most soloists are fine with running small group content in specific situations because we all have at least a few people on our list that we like to play with. The problem arises from content that requires us to become just a one more sheep in the raid herd. The raider drones seem to think that because we don't enjoy flushing our time down the toilet by spending our leisure hours with obnoxious, whining prima donnas that we don't want to be challenged. Untrue. Hard is good and it can be done with less than a full stable of 20 or 40 mewling windbags.
And as far as the trappings themselves go, you can keep 'em. I'm not in for the preening and dueling epeens. I just want to see the content that I'm helping to fund. Any reward that's given is a bonus. Raiders may enjoy chasing their stupid little carrots, but I'm too busy taking in the sights to bother with it.
I agree with this. I want to get my moneys worth out of an mmo. I dont care about the raid loot, I just want to see the content a few times. Thats whats great about ToR, I can literally see 100% of all the game content with 8 people or less. That is an easy number to reach. I have 6 friends that are going to be playing with me so we're practically there without even trying.
+1
I've done my share of raiding, and to be honest I'm tired of it. The challenges of raiding are primarily gone in most games on top of that. The hardest part of raiding nowadays is primarily getting people to pay attention. I do enjoy challenging games, but I don't want to be forced to play with a bunch of people who may be some of the most obnoxious on the server, just so I can get competitive gear. To say that this is somehow fair / necessary is also pretty ludicrous. Other games have found other mechanics to keep their games balanced and fun.
*Sniff*. I thought I was all alone!
A raid in WoW used to mean 40 players. A "raid" in TOR means 8.
If you can't find 8 players to play with, then you must be doing something terribly wrong.
Then you tell them that the best gear comes from raid content and they scream, "Theyre screwing solo players!!"
Then you tell them that you can solo to max level and they scream "This is a lobby game!"
Then you show them objective based world pvp and they scream "Its not gonna be balanced!!!"
So you show them instanced capture the flag pvp and they scream "It BREAKS IMMERSION!"
Are you effin kidding me....
For the most part, your idea makes a lot of sense. Alas thats not in the cards, anything < end game raiding = -10% efficiency. They say there is a PvP gear alternative but we will how equal that system is to Operations and Flashpoints...how long will it take for us to revert back to calling them raids and heroics?
"LOL"
The sad thing is that the OP picked the arbitrary number of "5 players" for the game to be solo friendly in his opinion. In City of Heroes, 8 players is the max super team size.
The OP is practically foaming at the mouth over a difference of three players? Has there ever been a smaller non-issue?
Raid or die was exactly why I stopped playing Rift after 1.5 month, despite having 3-month sub paid. It's sad to see same thing in ToR. To be honest I don't mind that there is a content for big groups. But I think there are better solutions than forcing people to hardcore raid or skip content and gear progression. Raiding and hardcore raiding guilds are like 2nd job, been there, done that.
Then I'm for 3-6 people group content at end game(or yet better scalable content, valid trough the whole game). I mean group content has more complexity and thus more challenge(than solo), but at raid point it's more about cat herding then each player skill.
Still gear rewards should be at very same level as solo. I'm up for special titles, cosmetics or achievements though.
I read that Rift is releasing solo and two person instances in 1.5 patch. I think that's awesome and may actually bring me back to the game.
Regarding SWTOR, I am just relieved that this round I only have to find SEVEN other people I like and try and get them to all show up and be consistent. I don't want to be in a big, impersonal, raiding guild... I like small intimate groups of friendly people, but I also like seeing all the content a game has to offer. I always end up missing out on the last big instances because I won't give in and join a bigger guild. Maybe this game I'll actually get the chance to experience it all.
No bitchers.
While sometimes it is unfortunate... the game developers can't cater to everyones wants in a game. It only makes sense to do what will make the majority happy. However, I do agree that sometimes I wish that there was less of the "raid or die" structure to most games nowadays. How this is possible... I'm not entirely sure, but it would be neat to see it for a change. I am a fan of the tiered gear system(acquiring gear to be able to do more difficult encounters), so maybe instead of just raiding there were some sort of solo or open world bossing needed at a certain point for further gear progression that is almost needed unless carried through. Btw, I would love to hear other paths and opinions.
Now that I'm finished with that... why do those of you want endgame gear and dont want to do party based activities to acquire them want that gear? In no way do I think you are wrong for this, I am just simply wondering. My take on gearing yourself for endgame:
1.) Dungeons to upgrade to blues from leveling greens.
2.) "Heroics" to upgrade to epics from dungeon blues.
3.) "Raids" to upgrade to better epics from "Heroic" epics.
and then in case you liked my idea...
1.) The same as above
2.) The same as above/crafted gear
3.)Raiding/Solo/Open World Bossing in some sort of alternating order
The way I see it is... if you want the best PvE gear in the game, in an MMO, it only makes sense to do the party based progression system. If there was a system to have the best gear in the game from exclusively solo content... I dont see a way for it to co-exist with the tiered system, and not having the tiered system would make it largely more unpopular, especially if implemented terribly. If you did a solo dungeon to have the same gear as me, while I did mine in raiding, what reason(besides looking cool) do you want it for and what would keep you interested and wanting to play the game if it only took you 5 hours to get to where I am? For those of you with little time and love MMO's, I honestly can't think of a solution for you... and that is unfortunate.
Developers are thinking longevity, if the game doesn't keep you wanting to play... they lose all the money they spent years developing the game everyone had fun with for maybe 2 months then comes F2P model and possibly shut down as we have seen time and time again. Again, I don't think anyone is wrong for what they like or believe... but I would like to know how you could keep it interesting to the masses with some of the things only loved by a smaller majority. Us MMO players are the hardest to please, if theres little partying were upset, if theres large amounts of partying were upset... when will we be satisfied. =D
I play the same exact way, and I can't wait to see how ToR plays out.
The worst thing about Raiding is Raiders, the most miserable whiney crybabies I have ever met, and the holy trinity raid grind paradigm forces you to be stuck in a dungeion with them for hours. In a sane universe I could put on my pvp gear and murder them while they try to kill scripted raid monsters.
I'm going to come off as a jerk on this one, and I apologize in advance.
Your point is rendered moot when you defeat your own argument. In SWTOR, you can craft or do 4 man Flashpoints and get "decent gear. Not the best but also not the worst". So your argument against SWTOR comes from your hypocracy, and not with the developers. As Foomerang already pointed out, the gear you'll get from crafters and Flashpoints will be more than enough for you to do whatever you want in the game.
I mean, honestly, you're complaining about having to play with other people on a MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER game. There's a key word in that accronym that should tell you that if you want a solo experience, that you should just stick to single player games. If you want a "small group" dynamic, that's fine, stick to the Flashpoints and don't raid. But just because your personal hermit nature restricts your ability to play end game material, doesn't mean that it has to affect those who actually want to raid and enjoy playing MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER games. The only person who is restricting your ability to play and have a positive experience with SWTOR is yourself, not the developers. You contradict your own argument, thus your argument is moot and pointless.
Thank you for playing.
Define an big and Impersonal guild? I've played WoW with my EQ guild, which was a defacto "pro guild" 1st world wides in EQ, and WoW. That guild was the least impersonal group i can think of, it was tighter than most families, people know each other, many traveled from coast to coast to meat one an other, had phone lists of everyone and people and much more, and and after switching to the EU servers i never could find another home like the one i had
And these days in WoW with 10man raids it's even easier to get a tight group of friends to raid with, how hard is it to gather a 10man group of IRL and in-game friends? And in ToR its even easier, 16 and 8 man raids?
First off: Think What mmo stands for. (Massive MULTI-PLAYER Online), in other terms its not really ment for solo play, Its a massive co-op and competitive game, I.E PvP
Second: if you could get the best gear in the game by playing it solo then wtf would be the point in making it online to begin with everyone would just do that.
Third: There will still be plenty to do solo whether it be questing, crafting, making money or just queing for pvp and light raiding.
Just saying.
No really, REALLY think about what Multiplayer stands for. In no way does it mean that you must play with the other masses of players. It only means that you're playing a game with other players, but not necessarily together!
{a mode of play involving more than one player at one time in a computer or video game}
Just saying...