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Are the wrong people developing games now?
Swollen_Beef
Member UncommonPosts: 190
With the sudden surge of diploma mills offering game development courses that allude to the whole "Play video games and earn $85,000 right out of school!" gimmick, im starting to think that the wrong people are getting into game development.
previously programers were the D&D nerdy types. Those who understood roleplay. Table top and pen and paper games were their realm. But now Im thinking as they grow older and assume executive roles that provide very little oversight of the game (or retire), they are replaced by the youngin's who have only read about games in a $80 college text book. They know of them, but they dont KNOW them.
It seems now we are getting developers who are more ineterested in the "prestige" of the job rather than doing what they love.
Comments
I'd say the answer is "Yes" if people making the decisions are CEOs and suits rather than a collection of artists, storytellers, and programmers who want to work for the common good of making an awesome game. I think games are interefered with especiallly if they are a major IP. Unfortunately the suits are always going to be the ones with the money for making the game so what can you do? Sometimes you luck out and get someone directing like Jobs of Apple but people in positions of wealth and power rarely inspire creativity these days. Unfortunately now its all about the Benjamins for companies and large companies like EA are swallowing up all the little guys.
Yet, depending especially of the earlier days, stories did lack dept, Story lines where simple or even non existant at all.
Look at warcraft1 (even2) or comand anc conquerer, red alert and to pick one from another genre.. Doom.
Start at X goto Y , kill x, good vs evil. What makes them good or evil? The manual said so. That was about it.
Nowadays actual artists, wel known writers and even actors are drawn into projects.
Admittedly actors and well known writers are being used but you have to be careful there because are they truely contributing or are they merely the hook. Leonard Nimoy did speaking parts for Star Trek Online and I found the game severely lacking in portraying the Star Trek Universe. I wouldn't say it was a failure but it was disappointing. Guild Wars 2 seems on the right track in regards to both art and storytelling. Still... Good MMOs seem to be a needle in the haystack these days. I have better hopes for late 2011 or 2012. Heh, I'm still waiting for that MechWarrior MMO to be made but that IP always seems to be in a legal pit of despair.
I agree. The art is lost on the bottom line.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
You are right the actors are just the gravy. But thanks to these writers story lines did become far far better.
While I DO agree not all changes are for the better.
But to pick one of the most successfull titles of them all..
Warcraft, it really did start off with very basic simplistic stories.
Good vs evil, Alliance good because they are pretty and Horde evil because they are ugly. Horde tries to kill the good, taking over the land, because thats what evil does.
Nowadays there is a huge story behind it all, things arent as black as white. Modern day horde isnt just evil, nor is alliance just the good side either.
We also used our imagination back then to fill in the blanks. (imo, that made games feel more intimate)
Like I said , its not all for the better.
Nowadays stories are getting told a bit too much.
But then again especially if you want to go back as far as the very 1st warcraft and doom. In many case we didnt fill in the blanks, we made up the stories because the game itself didnt have one.
You're just referring to the foot soldiers who do the coding for these games. The developers are the generals who are calling the shots. The trouble today is that many of them seem to be more the weekend warrior types that hail from marketing or proudly hang their MBAs around their necks with a gold chain.
The problem with games is that they are being directed by shortsighted business suits with no understanding of the product and no interest in it beyond the shareholder's report. The end result? Vapid gameplay with broad enough appeal to ensure that quantity will always trump quality.
I think that the problem is less that there are too many new people who don't know what they heck they are doing, but that there doesn't seem to be any deep thought on what makes something fun or not. In my experience, the people who REALLY like games and want to make them already know what they find fun, and want to make games that they want to play. The people giving them the money might have different ideas. I think that, when it comes to MMOs, money seems to win out over bold efforts to innovate or change up the genre, and in some cases, it isn't such a bad thing (these games need to be appealing to as large an audience as possible), but in others it just ends up feeding the reputation of MMOs as being tired and an unchanging grind-fest full of WoW clones.
You know what? I actually doubt this is a problem unique to the MMO market. You know what I see when I look at the offline gaming market? I see games made for fans of movies, MW version xyz, many games using long establised IPs to capitalize on new consoles or new technology, and a lot fewer good games and new ideas.
you know what? I see this same problem in the movie industry. The big difference is that developers are making a relatively small number of MMOs because of how much time it takes to make them (or at least make good ones). If there are more new developers willing to make new MMOs, I think that is inherently good. it will keep the genre moving forward.
Also, there will never be a WoW killer. WoW isn't special because it is better than everyone else, it is special because it is bigger than everone else. Newcomers will not have this playerbase or community, and must therefore do something to creat there playerbase. Using well known IPs can do that, but then you have fans who expect certain things from that IP that the developers can't or don't deliver on. You can hype your MMO, but you run the risk of the hype overshadowing the game.
One last thing you can do is take the time to establish an IP of your own, but this is pretty hard, as it requires a LOT of effort to get people interested in the IP. Sometimes, however, that effort is rewarded with a playerbase who sees the IP as good because of the game and not the game being good because of the IP (*cough* swtor *cough*).
I used to TL;DR, but then I took a bullet point to the footnote.
I would bet that the overwhelming majority of the people who develop computer games took a job in the industry because they like to play computer games. It's the sort of job that a lot of people think would be fun, or at least more fun than using the same programming skills to develop some sort of enterprise middleware. Given the same wages, a lot of people would rather code games than code other software. Some would be willing to get paid somewhat less in order to work on games. Thus, I'd expect people who work on developing games to tend to get paid less than they could make by using the same coding skills to develop less glamorous software. You don't accept that if you don't like playing computer games.
Now, there are probably a small handful of game developers who are really, really good at it, and get paid a lot for what they do. I'd expect that Blizzard stockholders aren't the only ones to get rich off of World of Warcraft, for example. But that doesn't invalidate my eariler point. Most actors could probably also get paid more if they went to a different industry, even if there are a small handful of really rich ones who make many millions of dollars.
I think another thing that has changed is the scope, number of people, and the length of the development cycle. Back in the day the development of games involved only a few people (sometimes even a single person did it all) and did not take years as it does now. This small team would do design, programming, art, sound, and so on. Now it consists of a huge team broken up into smaller teams dedicated to specific pieces. For example some will do art only (sometimes it even goes more granular than that....employee x only does concept art, or environment art). An individual may only work on a single small aspect of a game.
It's less intimate and there just isn't that sense of ownership. It's just not the same.
I think that is why you see some of the more interesting games these days coming from small Indie developers.
Just my 2 cents.
I can't remember who linked this in the forums originally but, I think if you read this, then it should answer your question. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=128252
"LOL"
The more students toward the game industrie the more games can adn will be made the bigger chance there is for someone to get it right, ofc you have to swim in a ocean of lesser tittles before reaching the island you are looking for.
the main problem is in direction, to many small teams and a boarf of investors. you need a single person whit a idea and stick to it. it might not always work but games designed by the masses for the masses never will succed. games are like music and movies. some like country, others like rap. if you try to make a game for everyone then you might have a succes short term (mainstream music...) but never will last. mainstream is a good scource of income tho so you always see that kinda junk.
You have to get through the WRONG, to get to the RIGHT. More people trying simply means more opportunity to get a great game.
Do you HAVE to be a tabletop, D&D gaming nerd in order to design a great game? Nope.
Do you HAVE to be a tabletop, D&D gaming nerd in order to design a great D&D style game? Yes.
Too bad I'm only looking for the first one. I like experimental games, not ones that has proven to work over and over again. I like new games, not games that are just simply reskinned and based on one system over and over again. RPG is great, but so is RTS, and FPS, and even puzzles and platforming.
What we need in the industry is variety, not hardcore pinpoint 'perfect' genre. Anyone in a design business, whether it is fashion or architecture knows that, no design is perfect, it is simply what the audience wants. (NOTE: customers usually don't know what they ACTUALLY want, they think they do but they usually don't, it is a designer's job to help them understand as well)
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW?
As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
Game developers are actually paid a fair amount less than other areas.
Except for the select few, you really have to love the area you are in or you'll burn out.
Look up how much an average coder/designer makes in various areas and gaming is the worst out there.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Are the wrong people developing games now?
No of course not, but are there games that are being developed that you, me or someone else don't like? then yes.
There must be some passion with most developers to sit down for 2, 3, 4 or more years to work on one project, there is this sense of wanting to create a fun experiance, even though some or many games might not turn out to be fun towards the consumer.
Then there is this whole new and bigger generation of gamers that have come due to mainstream internet who have shown that they have mostly a different take on games and how to play them then many of us old schoolgamers did back then. Which results in supply by demand.
Any of you who have been with this genre for a long time shouldn't be suprised how this genre turned out these day's as we already could have read it back in the day's on forums when internet became more mainstream and the wants and needs of those who where new to this medium had different idea's about games as they where not used to being online, where we grew into online and knew how things where before online was possible or very limited, where there is this hugh new generation that doesn't know any better then online is just there for the grabs.
Keep in mind developers gather so much more info/data then most of us will see and for example if you see your roleplaying games has about 5 or 10% of it's population playing roleplay and hte rest is doing more of a hack and slash rush to cap lvl then it's obvious that developers will focus more on the cap rushers then the rp's.
I don't really like the direction this genre has taken, but can still enjoy some of it.
As someone who is currently studying games development (not at some stupid degree factory, but at a place started by and run by actual games developers), I can tell you that most people who get a "games degree" wont make it into the industry. As much as people would like to blame crappy games on too many inexperienced devs, the fact of the matter is that the games industry is one of the hardest industries in the world to get into.
If your crap (like many of my classmates) then you wont get in, period. The problem with the industry is more the direction studios are taken after a few successes, by the management team (who are chasing $$ and not fun games).
If you look deep enough you will see that most game studios start out small with a dedicated and talented team, they release some awesome games and make some money and expand. Eventually a publisher teams up/buys them out and that's when the talent leaves and the studio stops innovating and producing fun games. Those guys who started it all (and are now gone) move on and start a new company and the cycle starts all over again.
MMO wish list:
-Changeable worlds
-Solid non level based game
-Sharks with lasers attached to their heads
i think the problem here is with those who buy games, they make games they beleive we will pay for if your willing to settle for less in terms of artistic design, story and originality then they will naturally give you less. The problem here is not only that they manage to sell it but that the najority of the gaming communtiy also thank them for it. Gamers have become rather accustomed to the high levels of polish found in most modern games. Only when an indie developer creates soemthing new and has success with itwill it ever have a chance of being recreated and polished by a major developer. Problem here tohugh is that theres many new inovative games with first time features even in the mmo genre that are indie developed but lack funds and through that support from fans who are unwilling to sacrifice polish for something new and exciting. Thats why clones and sequal reign supreme and the days of baldurs gate, monkey island, dungeon keeper, UO etc have pretty much given way to WOW, cod4, battlefield3, gow3, halo4 etc. want proof of mmos with features not fonud in 90% of other mmos? well heres some
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KErvQIYa7A life is feudal -in alpha
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5--1rZR7VTo embers of caerus- in alpha
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01p4M-SKB_g mortal online- released
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alKR4riy1SQ darkfall- released
there are 2 types of mmo, imitators and innovaters.
well you can't blame the poor programmer, blame the ones responsible:
Suits, CEOs, big fat PR monkeys (Barnett anyone?) programmers have to work their asses off and do what the suits want. I'm sure their heart is bleeding given how much stupid crap they have to introduce, cause an arrogant suit had an "idea".
Lately I have bee nrethinking my studying cause actually getting into this industry is so damn hard and if you lucky enough you might end up working for the evil companies someday.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play."
"Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
I think the developers are in general still doing a good job. But the company bosses probably keep saying 90% of the time regarding new ideas something such as:
"Dynamic factions instead of fixed one? Awesome idea, that would be totally new in MMORPGs. How long would you need to develop that? THAT long? Then stay with the usual two factions".
Also, that the people who develope games change over time is normal. The audience changes too, after all.
Let's play Fallen Earth (blind, 300 episodes)
Let's play Guild Wars 2 (blind, 45 episodes)
I would add a third question: Is D&D style actually a good base for MMORPGs? No.
Yes, the original discussion wasn't about MMOs only, but since we're here, might as well focus our attention a little.
Good point.
Back in the day studios were ran by the developers. Today, studios are ran by suits.
When a suit poops its considered an idea
I don't role play, yet I don't rush to cap
Where do I stand?
EDIT: I probably take even longer than role player get to cap. Since I have never hit it in any MMOG. so yea
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW?
As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
It's not the diploma mills,as most of them are not even recognized to get hired.It is also not the people coming into the industry,it it he old school and the high cost that makes it risky to try anything new.We also have a whole pile of old school producers,that are so set in their ways,it's just bad for game development.
What these old school guys know,is how to make a game,they don't know how to think or make a GOOD game.Randomize some terrain,dot the mobs,make some textures/models,create some animations,yep these guys know how to make pieces,but how to assemble them,that is where they are clueless.
IMO these mmorpg's are not only barely average,i consider most of them to be down right brutal efforts.My fave game was ffxi[not anymore]i would have only given that game a 6.5 -7/10 for it's era,the rest of the games are 6/10 or worse.
The next two games to come out ,both SWTOR and GW2 are not going to come remotely close to giving us what they COULD deliver for a great game.I could easily see myself giving these two games a 4/10 rating,when they come out.
We need 3 things,a good producers,good budget,good players.We definitely do not need any emo players that aree afraid of their own shadow nor do we need any players trying to turn MMO's into casual single player games.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Role of CEO and menagment in many companies take managers that had nothing to do with gaming, they don't care about it and are not really interested apart of business part of gaming industry. Game industry is one of most profitable business types atm , much more profitable than f.e. cloth sales or agriculture ,etc It offers one of highest profit margins and the total worth is increasing even in recession. On top of that it has bright future.
So no wonder managers , workers ,etc flock to gaming industry.
They treat game making and distribution & sales like any other business. Of course sale techniques and marketing techniques are a bit diffrent but other things are preety much same. Increasing revenue and profit margins is what matters, short-term profits are what is most important (that is what is most profitable to managment and workers cause it brings bonuses ,etc).
Building good position in industry by releasing highly polished good price/quality ratio titles is not important anymore.
Heavy weights prefer to spend alot of money on marketing and release game sequels (CoD , Fifa ,etc every year) and put DLC including day 1 DLC everywhere. Same thing with mmorpg's , better to spend alot of money and employers time to marketing techniques and "talking with community" (lol) , about item shops and prioritize short-term profits when those dry-up release some content ,expand item shop. Players long-term satisfaction does not matter , better to make hardcore fans to spend alot of money (they will irrespective of what is thrown at them) , others will either give up their complaints and stay because of already made time and emotions investment and frriends they made online in game. Dissatisfied conumers will go away slowly but influx of new one and increased revenue from old clients will make up for it.
You will see game companies releasing alot of diffrent mmo games , your average mmorpg developer will use all that money to release various game titles / types from facebook games through mmos profilled for children , through social games (like fashion mmos) to normal mmorpg's.
Bottom line current strategy is not to care for long-term consumer satisfaction but throw alot of money at diffrent kind of marketing and milk as much money out of consumer even if he leave after few months.
Game developers job atm is to develop games in order to bring as much revenue as they can , consumer satisfaction (especially long-term one) is secondary.
Sad times.
But many consumers go with this flow. They try multiple games each year and average mmorpg player becasue of that spend much more money on mmorpg's overall than it did in the past when many mmorpg players sticked to one game for a longer time.
That's what industry wants.