I still don't understand how that dismisses the importance of the RPG aspect. It may be saying "Combat is more important" because one's seen as gamebreaking, and the other generally isn't but the attention to the RPG aspect of the game is still shown heavily, and Arena Net still aspires to put the RPG back into MMORPG.
How about this..let GW2 release and let us see? it is too soon to talk about RPG aspect of GW2.
This has little to do with my point, since Arena Net's not the only company who's putting similar attention to in game player customization.
The death of rpg in mmorpgs is very clearly defined by the widely accepted argument that in a cash shop vanity items are ok to sell, anything that impacts combat or char progression is not.
Right there is the generally accepted view that rpg is meaningless and hack n slash is all.
*Snip*
You keep acknowledging that people don't see the rpg aspect as important, what is it you don't understand?
And regardless of what Arenanet aspires to do it doesn't count for anything until its done. Nothing counts in MMO's until it launches.
I never acknowledged that people think the RPG aspect isn't important, just that the combat in a game, among the majority of people who play them, takes precedence.
What I don't understand is how you can jump to such an extreme conclusion as that. Even World of Warcraft, the MMO which is being specifically referred to as dumbing down the "RPG" aspect of MMORPGs, has very healthy RP servers and lots of items for customization.
What is the specific game you're referring to that's use of vanity items in a cash shop completely dilutes all RPG qualities, because if you can't give me specific observations, then this is just a baseless complaint. Personally, I'm a huge fan of RPG's and I don't see, at all, vanity items in a cash shop deeming RP completely unimportant. With you, it sounds like there's no middle ground. Either the RPG is the only important aspect, or it is completely unimportant in these games.
You're completely missing my point. I didn't say any particular game didn't provide vanitiy items. Stop thinking I'm talking about a a game. I'm talking about the attitudes of the players. Specifically an attitude that accepts the sale of vanity items in a the cash shop but won't accept combat affecting items. And my observation of that attitude is not baseless.
The death of rpg in mmorpgs is very clearly defined by the widely accepted argument that in a cash shop vanity items are ok to sell, anything that impacts combat or char progression is not.
Right there is the generally accepted view that rpg is meaningless and hack n slash is all.
*Snip*
You keep acknowledging that people don't see the rpg aspect as important, what is it you don't understand?
And regardless of what Arenanet aspires to do it doesn't count for anything until its done. Nothing counts in MMO's until it launches.
I never acknowledged that people think the RPG aspect isn't important, just that the combat in a game, among the majority of people who play them, takes precedence.
What I don't understand is how you can jump to such an extreme conclusion as that. Even World of Warcraft, the MMO which is being specifically referred to as dumbing down the "RPG" aspect of MMORPGs, has very healthy RP servers and lots of items for customization.
What is the specific game you're referring to that's use of vanity items in a cash shop completely dilutes all RPG qualities, because if you can't give me specific observations, then this is just a baseless complaint. Personally, I'm a huge fan of RPG's and I don't see, at all, vanity items in a cash shop deeming RP completely unimportant. With you, it sounds like there's no middle ground. Either the RPG is the only important aspect, or it is completely unimportant in these games.
You're completely missing my point. I didn't say any particular game didn't provide vanitiy items. Stop thinking I'm talking about a a game. I'm talking about the attitudes of the players. Specifically an attitude that accepts the sale of vanity items in a the cash shop but won't accept combat affecting items. And my observation of that attitude is not baseless.
You'll still need to elaborate on this, because I don't understand how an attitude akin to "Because I have to pay for this fancy costume means this game's rpg is meaningless and hack n slash is all" emerges from selling vanity items.
Was a corpse run really fun=NO, if you want good quest play LOTRO, if you want a challenging MMO play Vanguard
Corpse runs weren't supposed to be fun. Dying isn't supposed to be fun.
That's the point.
The fun part is not dying. The fun part is the challenge of developing strategies for an extremely difficult encounter... then executing that strategy effectively and coming out alive. Or, planning a route through a dangerous area with a lot of lethal creatures, and making it to the other end in one piece, knowing what was at stake if you got aggro.
The idea of dying is supposed to be so unappealing that you make every attempt to *avoid* it, by not playing carelessly, by being better prepared, by not throwing yourself into dangerous situations that are beyond your capabilities.
People have no problem facerolling, zerging or zombie-rushing through content in so many games these days because death has no bite. It has no real consequence. It has no meaning. So there's no compelling reason to avoid it.
As I stated in a previous post in this thread (and in other topics), that people use death as a convenient way to get across zones faster (cemetery hopping, etc) is a very clear indication that death is an absolute joke in most current MMOs.
The people I see across various forums who repeatedly refer to death penalties as "time sinks", or as "the devs punishing the players" don't get it. I don't say that in a condescending way. I say that in a matter-of-fact way. If you look at a penalty for dying as being something other than a meaningful deterrent from playing carelessly and dying in the first place, then you really don't understand the purpose it serves.
It's not intended to "punish players." It's intended to keep players from zerging, facerolling and zombie-rushing through content, or using death as a faster way to get around the map - all the things you see quite a lot of these days.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I think the ME series had great story, great characters, and great, solid game play - very few if any flaws.
Yes, I definitely agree with you about the universe. Extremely well done.
However, I didn't really feel like I had all that many choices. At first it felt like I did, but then I realized that the only difference in using a new approach would have been to pick up a given character earlier or something like that.
And the side missions were fairly awful.
The story and acting were very good though, and that's why I said I liked it. But again, because I'm not normally a shooter guy and the fact that it didn't feel like an open game, I ended my relationship with the series after 1. I mean, well done and all that, but I'd much rather have had at least some choices other than dialogue options. And choice of GF.
I suppose that's kind of what I mean about an interactive movie. You're along for the ride. Games should be about interesting choices in my view.
The death of rpg in mmorpgs is very clearly defined by the widely accepted argument that in a cash shop vanity items are ok to sell, anything that impacts combat or char progression is not.
Right there is the generally accepted view that rpg is meaningless and hack n slash is all.
*Snip*
You keep acknowledging that people don't see the rpg aspect as important, what is it you don't understand?
And regardless of what Arenanet aspires to do it doesn't count for anything until its done. Nothing counts in MMO's until it launches.
I never acknowledged that people think the RPG aspect isn't important, just that the combat in a game, among the majority of people who play them, takes precedence.
What I don't understand is how you can jump to such an extreme conclusion as that. Even World of Warcraft, the MMO which is being specifically referred to as dumbing down the "RPG" aspect of MMORPGs, has very healthy RP servers and lots of items for customization.
What is the specific game you're referring to that's use of vanity items in a cash shop completely dilutes all RPG qualities, because if you can't give me specific observations, then this is just a baseless complaint. Personally, I'm a huge fan of RPG's and I don't see, at all, vanity items in a cash shop deeming RP completely unimportant. With you, it sounds like there's no middle ground. Either the RPG is the only important aspect, or it is completely unimportant in these games.
You're completely missing my point. I didn't say any particular game didn't provide vanitiy items. Stop thinking I'm talking about a a game. I'm talking about the attitudes of the players. Specifically an attitude that accepts the sale of vanity items in a the cash shop but won't accept combat affecting items. And my observation of that attitude is not baseless.
You'll still need to elaborate on this, because I don't understand how an attitude akin to "Because I have to pay for this fancy costume means this game's rpg is meaningless and hack n slash is all" emerges from selling vanity items.
I can't elaborate it any more than I already have. You'll just have to get used to not understanding.
The death of rpg in mmorpgs is very clearly defined by the widely accepted argument that in a cash shop vanity items are ok to sell, anything that impacts combat or char progression is not.
Right there is the generally accepted view that rpg is meaningless and hack n slash is all.
*Snip*
You keep acknowledging that people don't see the rpg aspect as important, what is it you don't understand?
And regardless of what Arenanet aspires to do it doesn't count for anything until its done. Nothing counts in MMO's until it launches.
I never acknowledged that people think the RPG aspect isn't important, just that the combat in a game, among the majority of people who play them, takes precedence.
What I don't understand is how you can jump to such an extreme conclusion as that. Even World of Warcraft, the MMO which is being specifically referred to as dumbing down the "RPG" aspect of MMORPGs, has very healthy RP servers and lots of items for customization.
What is the specific game you're referring to that's use of vanity items in a cash shop completely dilutes all RPG qualities, because if you can't give me specific observations, then this is just a baseless complaint. Personally, I'm a huge fan of RPG's and I don't see, at all, vanity items in a cash shop deeming RP completely unimportant. With you, it sounds like there's no middle ground. Either the RPG is the only important aspect, or it is completely unimportant in these games.
You're completely missing my point. I didn't say any particular game didn't provide vanitiy items. Stop thinking I'm talking about a a game. I'm talking about the attitudes of the players. Specifically an attitude that accepts the sale of vanity items in a the cash shop but won't accept combat affecting items. And my observation of that attitude is not baseless.
You'll still need to elaborate on this, because I don't understand how an attitude akin to "Because I have to pay for this fancy costume means this game's rpg is meaningless and hack n slash is all" emerges from selling vanity items.
I can't elaborate it any more than I already have. You'll just have to get used to not understanding.
Vanity is widely accepted simply because it doesnt give you an advantage over others. RPing isnt a competition, its a mindset. You can add to your experience with words and color but it will never put you over someone else, never make you "better" than someone else .
Gear, potions and anything else that gives you an edge is totally different. They let you go thru content faster, with more ease and thus putting you ahead of the rest.
I have to say that this is the most intellegant and the most well written article on MMORPG ever. Allthough I am extreemly biased to the old EQ1 and I absolutly loved when they still had corpse runs and you had to type more then one word to the NPC to get a response. But unfortunatly those golden days are forever gone in EQ1 and in MMOs all together.
EQ was just a gear/level grind that was nothing more then a 3D D&D MUD. You can blame EVERYTHING that is currently wrong with the MMO genre on EQ.
Gear grinds, level grinds, raiding grinds, dungeon grinds, lack of meaningful PvP, the Holy Trinity mechanics...
Just imagine how much better games would have been if the genre had followed the UO model over the EQ model.
But what happened?
The more popular, less sophisticated of the two, which was EQ, won out not because it was better but because it was more popular and thusly made more money.
Now?
Sandboxes are dead, any new sandbox fails to learn the lessons UO learned 10+ years ago when the game was in its prime.
Everything follows the EQ formula of grind grind grind levels levels levels gear gear gear just like EQ did and EQ's real successor, World of Warcraft, popularized and monetized.
I find it odd that anyone need to call another game garbage just because you love its competitor.
UO has its own limitation too. The 45 degree view is way more clumsy and unnatural, relative to a FP view. The game has lots of rough edge. It degenerates fast into city entrance camping. Griefing by armored knights, mounted, grouped. Bandit world.
If you are into that kind of game, it is fun.
If you are into EQ1 type of FP view exploration, dark woprld, much more realistic (at that time in history) feeling, EQ1 is better.
Looking back today, both games have weakness. 10 years ago both games were at its prime because much better games were not there. When DAoC and SWG comes out, many PvP players left UO. When CoX and later WoW comes out, people not in favor of huge grinds moved on. You may use terms like dumb down or less sophisticated, but the fact is, enough of the original EQ/UO population see the better aspects of the new games.
Casuals are the future. Not nerdy hardcore people who think beating some pixels makes them some kind of VIP. Get over it. Things change. Maybe it is YOU who need to quit MMOs if you cannot deal with change?
I have to say that this is the most intellegant and the most well written article on MMORPG ever. Allthough I am extreemly biased to the old EQ1 and I absolutly loved when they still had corpse runs and you had to type more then one word to the NPC to get a response. But unfortunatly those golden days are forever gone in EQ1 and in MMOs all together.
Not really. Another grognard being all crotchity and going "meh in my day blah blah blah." I played those games too. I don't like corpse runs and all that bullshit. It was crap. You want a hardcore game find the niche ones instead of expecting every MMO to be like that.
I have to say that this is the most intellegant and the most well written article on MMORPG ever. Allthough I am extreemly biased to the old EQ1 and I absolutly loved when they still had corpse runs and you had to type more then one word to the NPC to get a response. But unfortunatly those golden days are forever gone in EQ1 and in MMOs all together.
Not really. Another grognard being all crotchity and going "meh in my day blah blah blah." I played those games too. I don't like corpse runs and all that bullshit. It was crap. You want a hardcore game find the niche ones instead of expecting every MMO to be like that.
Sure you played them? Highly doubt and if so, for sure not long and that was the good thing back in the days people throwing around offensive words didn't last long, cause you had to be nice and play well instead of being a whiny "I dont have time" person.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play." "Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
I have to say that this is the most intellegant and the most well written article on MMORPG ever. Allthough I am extreemly biased to the old EQ1 and I absolutly loved when they still had corpse runs and you had to type more then one word to the NPC to get a response. But unfortunatly those golden days are forever gone in EQ1 and in MMOs all together.
Not really. Another grognard being all crotchity and going "meh in my day blah blah blah." I played those games too. I don't like corpse runs and all that bullshit. It was crap. You want a hardcore game find the niche ones instead of expecting every MMO to be like that.
Sure you played them? Highly doubt and if so, for sure not long and that was the good thing back in the days people throwing around offensive words didn't last long, cause you had to be nice and play well instead of being a whiny "I dont have time" person.
I am from days of UO too and i find people like you annoying. There is reason why there is not another UO or EQ. But i gues it is hard to keep up with times and try to understand that you and I we are in minority.
You know what happened over the years? those gamers grew up. And yes i grew up too. I am not in college anymore where i could afford to burn hours in front of PC. You think new generation gives a damn and think 'oh man you were so cool..you did corpse runs?' no they most probably roll their eyes and think what a waste of time.
Lots of people see these as "golden days" and look back on them with a certain degree of fondness. Personally, I came to the show pretty late, but I did try out EQ and EQ2, but after the golden days. I like the idea of death meaning something, but all games, even FPS games, are reducing death penalties (the respawn on BF3 is supposed to be really short).
I guess that while it does make you more careful, and can lead to great feelings of achievement when you clear a raid/get somewhere difficult without dying, the problem is the frustration when you do die. Most people do not want to feel frustrated by their hobby, and dying and losing xp and items is a really frustrating experience, and can cause people to rage quit. Unfortunately games are so expensive to produce these days that companies are very risk-averse, and so won't do anything that may force players away.
If, however, teh industry gets over this stupid notion that an MMO needs to have WoW levels of subscribers to be considered a success, then hopefully we can see more variety in MMOs, and maybe get something more "hardcore" released. Will it be massively popular? Probably not. Will it have enough subs to subscribe? Possibly, if the rest of the game is good enough.
So that's my view. You won't get mass-market appeal with games like UO and EQ anymore, but if the industry can accept that smaller games can still be successful, maybe someone, somewhere, will release one.
I'm 30% Rock, 10% Roll, 50% Nerd and 10% Troll. Axis of Awesome - Moderately Rock and Roll
Lots of people see these as "golden days" and look back on them with a certain degree of fondness. Personally, I came to the show pretty late, but I did try out EQ and EQ2, but after the golden days. I like the idea of death meaning something, but all games, even FPS games, are reducing death penalties (the respawn on BF3 is supposed to be really short).
I guess that while it does make you more careful, and can lead to great feelings of achievement when you clear a raid/get somewhere difficult without dying, the problem is the frustration when you do die. Most people do not want to feel frustrated by their hobby, and dying and losing xp and items is a really frustrating experience, and can cause people to rage quit. Unfortunately games are so expensive to produce these days that companies are very risk-averse, and so won't do anything that may force players away.
If, however, teh industry gets over this stupid notion that an MMO needs to have WoW levels of subscribers to be considered a success, then hopefully we can see more variety in MMOs, and maybe get something more "hardcore" released. Will it be massively popular? Probably not. Will it have enough subs to subscribe? Possibly, if the rest of the game is good enough.
So that's my view. You won't get mass-market appeal with games like UO and EQ anymore, but if the industry can accept that smaller games can still be successful, maybe someone, somewhere, will release one.
Good post and really, thats all I am asking for. Different games for different audiences I am so sick of the one game for all audiences crap. I don't want to play with the hack n slay , fps and instant gratification crowd. I want to:
log in explore the world find a camp and have some pretty nice hours with other people, slaying the group mobs there. Not doing some stupid instances, who are more jump and run easymode style without exploration at all. This type of gameplay is only avaiable if you are playing with like minded people.
Personally I think, companies need to be smaller again and take pride in what they are making, instead of playing copycat and expecting everything under 1.000k subs as a fail.
Heres hoping ArcheAge will bring back the virtual world.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play." "Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
I have to say that this is the most intellegant and the most well written article on MMORPG ever. Allthough I am extreemly biased to the old EQ1 and I absolutly loved when they still had corpse runs and you had to type more then one word to the NPC to get a response. But unfortunatly those golden days are forever gone in EQ1 and in MMOs all together.
Not really. Another grognard being all crotchity and going "meh in my day blah blah blah." I played those games too. I don't like corpse runs and all that bullshit. It was crap. You want a hardcore game find the niche ones instead of expecting every MMO to be like that.
Sure you played them? Highly doubt and if so, for sure not long and that was the good thing back in the days people throwing around offensive words didn't last long, cause you had to be nice and play well instead of being a whiny "I dont have time" person.
I am from days of UO too and i find people like you annoying. There is reason why there is not another UO or EQ. But i gues it is hard to keep up with times and try to understand that you and I we are in minority.
You know what happened over the years? those gamers grew up. And yes i grew up too. I am not in college anymore where i could afford to burn hours in front of PC. You think new generation gives a damn and think 'oh man you were so cool..you did corpse runs?' no they most probably roll their eyes and think what a waste of time.
Very true, I add my own version to your presentation.
I left UO and EQ too, partly because I am now too busy to play much.
I left mainly because I see less and less point in wasting precious time doing game mechanics that are just necessary but undesirable. I was trying hard to kill that damn boss in the plane of XYZ. I do not see how hours of corpse run help me do better. It only reduce the number of times I can try, and hence lower my chance of improving via trying.
Very few of the old mechanism really encourage gaming. Too few.
Those were the days when a server can only spawn a boss every 4 days, so that it feels "rare" just by artificially restricting supply, supply of something that has no natural reason for scarcity. It feels like burning all books on earth so that the few remaining copies look precious.
Those were the days where griefing is rampant.
Those were the days where hell levels artificially doubles the cost of levelling, or triple for level 49, so once again, a level 50 appears to be scarce just because it was made unnecessarily hard to get to.
Those were the days I will never go back, because I see through and will not want to be so foolish about burning my hours any more.
Lots of people see these as "golden days" and look back on them with a certain degree of fondness. Personally, I came to the show pretty late, but I did try out EQ and EQ2, but after the golden days. I like the idea of death meaning something, but all games, even FPS games, are reducing death penalties (the respawn on BF3 is supposed to be really short).
I guess that while it does make you more careful, and can lead to great feelings of achievement when you clear a raid/get somewhere difficult without dying, the problem is the frustration when you do die. Most people do not want to feel frustrated by their hobby, and dying and losing xp and items is a really frustrating experience, and can cause people to rage quit. Unfortunately games are so expensive to produce these days that companies are very risk-averse, and so won't do anything that may force players away.
If, however, teh industry gets over this stupid notion that an MMO needs to have WoW levels of subscribers to be considered a success, then hopefully we can see more variety in MMOs, and maybe get something more "hardcore" released. Will it be massively popular? Probably not. Will it have enough subs to subscribe? Possibly, if the rest of the game is good enough.
So that's my view. You won't get mass-market appeal with games like UO and EQ anymore, but if the industry can accept that smaller games can still be successful, maybe someone, somewhere, will release one.
Good post and really, thats all I am asking for. Different games for different audiences I am so sick of the one game for all audiences crap. I don't want to play with the hack n slay , fps and instant gratification crowd. I want to:
log in explore the world find a camp and have some pretty nice hours with other people, slaying the group mobs there. Not doing some stupid instances, who are more jump and run easymode style without exploration at all. This type of gameplay is only avaiable if you are playing with like minded people.
Personally I think, companies need to be smaller again and take pride in what they are making, instead of playing copycat and expecting everything under 1.000k subs as a fail.
Heres hoping ArcheAge will bring back the virtual world.
We all want diversity, unfortunately, it is the suppliers who does not want.
Preaching to us won't do any good though, and I have no idea how to get your wishes done.
I have to say that this is the most intellegant and the most well written article on MMORPG ever. Allthough I am extreemly biased to the old EQ1 and I absolutly loved when they still had corpse runs and you had to type more then one word to the NPC to get a response. But unfortunatly those golden days are forever gone in EQ1 and in MMOs all together.
Not really. Another grognard being all crotchity and going "meh in my day blah blah blah." I played those games too. I don't like corpse runs and all that bullshit. It was crap. You want a hardcore game find the niche ones instead of expecting every MMO to be like that.
Sure you played them? Highly doubt and if so, for sure not long and that was the good thing back in the days people throwing around offensive words didn't last long, cause you had to be nice and play well instead of being a whiny "I dont have time" person.
I am from days of UO too and i find people like you annoying. There is reason why there is not another UO or EQ. But i gues it is hard to keep up with times and try to understand that you and I we are in minority.
You know what happened over the years? those gamers grew up. And yes i grew up too. I am not in college anymore where i could afford to burn hours in front of PC. You think new generation gives a damn and think 'oh man you were so cool..you did corpse runs?' no they most probably roll their eyes and think what a waste of time.
Very true, I add my own version to your presentation.
I left UO and EQ too, partly because I am now too busy to play much.
I left mainly because I see less and less point in wasting precious time doing game mechanics that are just necessary but undesirable. I was trying hard to kill that damn boss in the plane of XYZ. I do not see how hours of corpse run help me do better. It only reduce the number of times I can try, and hence lower my chance of improving via trying.
Very few of the old mechanism really encourage gaming. Too few.
Those were the days when a server can only spawn a boss every 4 days, so that it feels "rare" just by artificially restricting supply, supply of something that has no natural reason for scarcity. It feels like burning all books on earth so that the few remaining copies look precious.
Those were the days where griefing is rampant.
Those were the days where hell levels artificially doubles the cost of levelling, or triple for level 49, so once again, a level 50 appears to be scarce just because it was made unnecessarily hard to get to.
Those were the days I will never go back, because I see through and will not want to be so foolish about burning my hours any more.
Thank you, very nice post and you reminded me why i slap my fore head everytime i think how much time i wasted playing these games back in college when i could have just got laid lol.
Even if today i had that much free time would i ever play games like EQ and UO again? nope, old days are gone and i prefer it stays that way.
Good post and really, thats all I am asking for. Different games for different audiences I am so sick of the one game for all audiences crap. I don't want to play with the hack n slay , fps and instant gratification crowd. I want to:
log in explore the world find a camp and have some pretty nice hours with other people, slaying the group mobs there. Not doing some stupid instances, who are more jump and run easymode style without exploration at all. This type of gameplay is only avaiable if you are playing with like minded people.
Personally I think, companies need to be smaller again and take pride in what they are making, instead of playing copycat and expecting everything under 1.000k subs as a fail.
Heres hoping ArcheAge will bring back the virtual world.
That;s what we need, different games for different audiences. Now indie games are really successful on some platforms, but the MMO is a very expensive beast.
I hate to drag WoW into this, but until it really starts to fall, and lose massive numbers of subscribers, investors will always see it as a target - "Our game will be a WoW-killer". It won't happen. I'd rather have a flatter market, with a large number of slightly smaller games (in subs, not in-game size) than WoW having over 80% of the MMO market.
I think it will happen, because games are more and more having to do things to stand out from the crowd to attract attention. Question then is - how hardcaore can they make a game while still attracting lots of subs. More than current games - certainly. As hard as EQ/UO? I really don't know.
I'm 30% Rock, 10% Roll, 50% Nerd and 10% Troll. Axis of Awesome - Moderately Rock and Roll
I have to say that this is the most intellegant and the most well written article on MMORPG ever. Allthough I am extreemly biased to the old EQ1 and I absolutly loved when they still had corpse runs and you had to type more then one word to the NPC to get a response. But unfortunatly those golden days are forever gone in EQ1 and in MMOs all together.
Not really. Another grognard being all crotchity and going "meh in my day blah blah blah." I played those games too. I don't like corpse runs and all that bullshit. It was crap. You want a hardcore game find the niche ones instead of expecting every MMO to be like that.
Sure you played them? Highly doubt and if so, for sure not long and that was the good thing back in the days people throwing around offensive words didn't last long, cause you had to be nice and play well instead of being a whiny "I dont have time" person.
I am from days of UO too and i find people like you annoying. There is reason why there is not another UO or EQ. But i gues it is hard to keep up with times and try to understand that you and I we are in minority.
You know what happened over the years? those gamers grew up. And yes i grew up too. I am not in college anymore where i could afford to burn hours in front of PC. You think new generation gives a damn and think 'oh man you were so cool..you did corpse runs?' no they most probably roll their eyes and think what a waste of time.
Having less time to play change anything ? You didnt need to play 12 hours a day to enjoy EQ. What risk and challenge brings is a tighter community. In EQ you prolly knew half the server. How many people do we know in new games ? half of your guildmates ? Being nice is laughed at in todays community. There is no respect for others and no reason to help them.
My first char on EQ took something like 6months to reach level 50. But the journey was fun, I met a lot of nice people and had plenty of time to know them while I had my face in my spellbook. Thats what I remember the most from EQ, meeting people. I certainly banged my head on the desk a couple times after having hard corpse run but when you did something hard you felt like you earned your reward. I played UO and EQ for about 3 years each. I played every game that came out since then and while I played a couples months of DAoC, no other game kept me interested for more than 2 months.
So even if I play a lot less, I feel like there is also a lot less to do in the new games. Sure the old game had a lot more time sink. 40 minutes to take a boat is soo long, but it was a rush to get on it in time, you had people yelling that the boat had been sighted and everyone ran as fast as they could. It was a living world, immersive and made you forget the rest.
When I look at the new crowd I think they would be happy to just be given a maxed char and just go at it in arena and raids... Thats not what I liked about MMORPG. The journey, the community, the challenge and the rewards made those games.
I have to say that this is the most intellegant and the most well written article on MMORPG ever. Allthough I am extreemly biased to the old EQ1 and I absolutly loved when they still had corpse runs and you had to type more then one word to the NPC to get a response. But unfortunatly those golden days are forever gone in EQ1 and in MMOs all together.
Not really. Another grognard being all crotchity and going "meh in my day blah blah blah." I played those games too. I don't like corpse runs and all that bullshit. It was crap. You want a hardcore game find the niche ones instead of expecting every MMO to be like that.
Sure you played them? Highly doubt and if so, for sure not long and that was the good thing back in the days people throwing around offensive words didn't last long, cause you had to be nice and play well instead of being a whiny "I dont have time" person.
I am from days of UO too and i find people like you annoying. There is reason why there is not another UO or EQ. But i gues it is hard to keep up with times and try to understand that you and I we are in minority.
You know what happened over the years? those gamers grew up. And yes i grew up too. I am not in college anymore where i could afford to burn hours in front of PC. You think new generation gives a damn and think 'oh man you were so cool..you did corpse runs?' no they most probably roll their eyes and think what a waste of time.
Having less time to play change anything ? You didnt need to play 12 hours a day to enjoy EQ. What risk and challenge brings is a tighter community. In EQ you prolly knew half the server. How many people do we know in new games ? half of your guildmates ? Being nice is laughed at in todays community. There is no respect for others and no reason to help them.
I never said 12 hours did i? but yes i did spend considerable amount of free time playing EQ because the game mechanics were such that nothing was done in an hour or so. Why do you assume that everyone who plays online games want to know the entire server, people just want to log in have fun and log off. This is the biggest problem assuming that everyone wants to live in virtual world..maybe they find real world more interesting..with real people?
Also you are going overboard with your generalisation. I am always nice in MMOS and i wasn't laughed at by anyone. I help people a lot and i always get a thank you and even an invite to their friend list. Maybe the problem is with you and how you interact with others. Ever thought about that?
My first char on EQ took something like 6months to reach level 50. But the journey was fun, I met a lot of nice people and had plenty of time to know them while I had my face in my spellbook. Thats what I remember the most from EQ, meeting people. I certainly banged my head on the desk a couple times after having hard corpse run but when you did something hard you felt like you earned your reward. I played UO and EQ for about 3 years each. I played every game that came out since then and while I played a couples months of DAoC, no other game kept me interested for more than 2 months.
I don't mind spending an year to reach to my goals. i am talking about time required to spend on a game on daily basis.
So even if I play a lot less, I feel like there is also a lot less to do in the new games. Sure the old game had a lot more time sink. 40 minutes to take a boat is soo long, but it was a rush to get on it in time, you had people yelling that the boat had been sighted and everyone ran as fast as they could. It was a living world, immersive and made you forget the rest.
And that is what i regret the most.
When I look at the new crowd I think they would be happy to just be given a maxed char and just go at it in arena and raids... Thats not what I liked about MMORPG. The journey, the community, the challenge and the rewards made those games.
I laughed out loud several times and I agree with everything you said except for the part about corpse runs. Corpse runs can add to the game, but not necessarily so: last time I enjoyed a CR was in a MUD. In WoW they were awful and probably one of the reasons I stopped playing. Now the CR is so antiquated probably the only way to make them fun again would be if we all consensually agreed to stop playing graphical games and went back to telnet MUDs.
The thing that made them fun back in the day for me was that I earned all this epic loot that someone scirpted and went to the trouble of writing detailed descriptions for, and if I died in the way out lands of the elemental canyon I knew I had to get there before someone else did otherwise they would loot my corpse and I would lose some items, some of which were limited in the number that existed in that world. That was another reason to go adventuring with a group, so they could all build a campfire and wait for you to get back while guarding your corpse if they weren't jerks.
So I would go streaking down the roads in search of my corpse or every so often I would "see" (as real as that term gets in a text-based adventure) someone else go streaking and think "aha, there goes someone on a corpse run".
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar Authored 139 missions in VendettaOnline and 6 tracks in Distance
Having less time to play change anything ? You didnt need to play 12 hours a day to enjoy EQ. What risk and challenge brings is a tighter community. In EQ you prolly knew half the server. How many people do we know in new games ? half of your guildmates ? Being nice is laughed at in todays community. There is no respect for others and no reason to help them.
My first char on EQ took something like 6months to reach level 50. But the journey was fun, I met a lot of nice people and had plenty of time to know them while I had my face in my spellbook. Thats what I remember the most from EQ, meeting people. I certainly banged my head on the desk a couple times after having hard corpse run but when you did something hard you felt like you earned your reward. I played UO and EQ for about 3 years each. I played every game that came out since then and while I played a couples months of DAoC, no other game kept me interested for more than 2 months.
So even if I play a lot less, I feel like there is also a lot less to do in the new games. Sure the old game had a lot more time sink. 40 minutes to take a boat is soo long, but it was a rush to get on it in time, you had people yelling that the boat had been sighted and everyone ran as fast as they could. It was a living world, immersive and made you forget the rest.
When I look at the new crowd I think they would be happy to just be given a maxed char and just go at it in arena and raids... Thats not what I liked about MMORPG. The journey, the community, the challenge and the rewards made those games.
Having less time to play changes everything, because EQ1 is built with a purpose to burn time. What do you do if you have say 1 hour. Nothing. You have to move to the entrance of a zone, zone in and hope there is no train. You shout for hours till there is an opening in a camp, and you are the right role. You have to solo your way in and hope you do not die. You then have to stay in the camp and farm pull, 2 minutes per pull-kill.
Now if you die in any way, good luck, you need to get back your body unless you die in a safe place.
You can do all that comfortably within an hour?
In EQ, you cannot count on being afk, not even if you are dps, never if you are tank or heal or mess. If you join a mobile camp, which means moving after every pull in a circular pattern, if someone trained your camp, if ...
EQ has its share of jerks, somehow you forgot them all. People who steal camps, steal mobs, train camps, train to zone. People who argue over right to visit planes, people who team up to monopolise a plane, a rare mob. The current community is annoying because you can hear them in channels, which you can turn off. In the East commons, people can be just as annoying, racist, slangs, everything, except that we seldom go there, unless we really want to sell a unique gear so we can farm that again.
Oh you love the artifically annoying design. 40 min wait and the need to rush there in time is nice? Your view, not mine. I despise artificially created scarcity. It is plain stupidity in my books.
EQ mobs are not more challenging. They have more hp, so it takes longer to wear them out, much like the miniboss of WoW. Apart from that, they have very little special moves. Even the plane gods are little more than big big hp monsters. Compare them to the LK, the combat mechanism of the recent well make raid bosses are much much more varied.
EQ has nothing to do besides raiding. All the talks about journey fades away after the first char, and even one character is too much for me. I find it stupid to create hell levels, super long boring grinding sessions to get a mini-ding. No crafting, no story arc, nothing. EQ just give me a world of static mobs, little combat intelligence, ultra rare drops, ultra rare boss spawns, and endless camping just to wait for the sound of "ding", The journey was not really that cool after the first character, to me that is.
WoW has a lot more to do, whether you like it or not. They have crafting, they have harvesting, they have raids, dailies, pvp zones, arenas. If you hate them too bad for you, but it is unfair to say that there is less to do in new games. There is nothing in EQ1 that is not present in our latest breed of games. You just need to find the fun, if you can.
I have to say that this is the most intellegant and the most well written article on MMORPG ever. Allthough I am extreemly biased to the old EQ1 and I absolutly loved when they still had corpse runs and you had to type more then one word to the NPC to get a response. But unfortunatly those golden days are forever gone in EQ1 and in MMOs all together.
Not really. Another grognard being all crotchity and going "meh in my day blah blah blah." I played those games too. I don't like corpse runs and all that bullshit. It was crap. You want a hardcore game find the niche ones instead of expecting every MMO to be like that.
Sure you played them? Highly doubt and if so, for sure not long and that was the good thing back in the days people throwing around offensive words didn't last long, cause you had to be nice and play well instead of being a whiny "I dont have time" person.
I am from days of UO too and i find people like you annoying. There is reason why there is not another UO or EQ. But i gues it is hard to keep up with times and try to understand that you and I we are in minority.
You know what happened over the years? those gamers grew up. And yes i grew up too. I am not in college anymore where i could afford to burn hours in front of PC. You think new generation gives a damn and think 'oh man you were so cool..you did corpse runs?' no they most probably roll their eyes and think what a waste of time.
Having less time to play change anything ? You didnt need to play 12 hours a day to enjoy EQ. What risk and challenge brings is a tighter community. In EQ you prolly knew half the server. How many people do we know in new games ? half of your guildmates ? Being nice is laughed at in todays community. There is no respect for others and no reason to help them.
I never said 12 hours did i? but yes i did spend considerable amount of free time playing EQ because the game mechanics were such that nothing was done in an hour or so. Why do you assume that everyone who plays online games want to know the entire server, people just want to log in have fun and log off. This is the biggest problem assuming that everyone wants to live in virtual world..maybe they find real world more interesting..with real people?
Also you are going overboard with your generalisation. I am always nice in MMOS and i wasn't laughed at by anyone. I help people a lot and i always get a thank you and even an invite to their friend list. Maybe the problem is with you and how you interact with others. Ever thought about that?
Other than the first sentence, all the rest was not necessarily directed at you. sorry you took all of it personal. I dont say that everyone who plays online games should be social, but certainly everyone playing a MMORPG should. MMO coop games are more like the type of game you are looking for I guess and in a sense all the games are just that these days.
When I read a book its not 1 page at a time or you never get immersed, so sure MMORPG require more time, its a virtual world. All I am saying is that I never never been immersed in a world like old time in EQ.
And again on the helping part, I was making an observation. Not talking about how I myself react to others. You are an old school gamer and were taught manner and respect. Thats the point I was making, the newer crowd doesnt. (that doesnt mean that none of them do) Just watch the kids in school these days, Its anarchy. No respect, no manner. If they dont respect their teachers why would they care about pixels on a screen.
My first char on EQ took something like 6months to reach level 50. But the journey was fun, I met a lot of nice people and had plenty of time to know them while I had my face in my spellbook. Thats what I remember the most from EQ, meeting people. I certainly banged my head on the desk a couple times after having hard corpse run but when you did something hard you felt like you earned your reward. I played UO and EQ for about 3 years each. I played every game that came out since then and while I played a couples months of DAoC, no other game kept me interested for more than 2 months.
I don't mind spending an year to reach to my goals. i am talking about time required to spend on a game on daily basis.
I don't think I ever took 8h to clear a raid in EQ like it can take in some new games. You could pretty well log only 30 minutes in EQ and enjoy it. What is so different today that makes you enjoy more of your 30 minutes online?
So even if I play a lot less, I feel like there is also a lot less to do in the new games. Sure the old game had a lot more time sink. 40 minutes to take a boat is soo long, but it was a rush to get on it in time, you had people yelling that the boat had been sighted and everyone ran as fast as they could. It was a living world, immersive and made you forget the rest.
And that is what i regret the most.
MMORPG should be like books and movies, entertainement something that immerse you in something new. Not cause you hate your life but simply to try something else. Thats what the RPG stands for.
When I look at the new crowd I think they would be happy to just be given a maxed char and just go at it in arena and raids... Thats not what I liked about MMORPG. The journey, the community, the challenge and the rewards made those games.
Comments
This has little to do with my point, since Arena Net's not the only company who's putting similar attention to in game player customization.
You're completely missing my point. I didn't say any particular game didn't provide vanitiy items. Stop thinking I'm talking about a a game. I'm talking about the attitudes of the players. Specifically an attitude that accepts the sale of vanity items in a the cash shop but won't accept combat affecting items. And my observation of that attitude is not baseless.
You'll still need to elaborate on this, because I don't understand how an attitude akin to "Because I have to pay for this fancy costume means this game's rpg is meaningless and hack n slash is all" emerges from selling vanity items.
Corpse runs weren't supposed to be fun. Dying isn't supposed to be fun.
That's the point.
The fun part is not dying. The fun part is the challenge of developing strategies for an extremely difficult encounter... then executing that strategy effectively and coming out alive. Or, planning a route through a dangerous area with a lot of lethal creatures, and making it to the other end in one piece, knowing what was at stake if you got aggro.
The idea of dying is supposed to be so unappealing that you make every attempt to *avoid* it, by not playing carelessly, by being better prepared, by not throwing yourself into dangerous situations that are beyond your capabilities.
People have no problem facerolling, zerging or zombie-rushing through content in so many games these days because death has no bite. It has no real consequence. It has no meaning. So there's no compelling reason to avoid it.
As I stated in a previous post in this thread (and in other topics), that people use death as a convenient way to get across zones faster (cemetery hopping, etc) is a very clear indication that death is an absolute joke in most current MMOs.
The people I see across various forums who repeatedly refer to death penalties as "time sinks", or as "the devs punishing the players" don't get it. I don't say that in a condescending way. I say that in a matter-of-fact way. If you look at a penalty for dying as being something other than a meaningful deterrent from playing carelessly and dying in the first place, then you really don't understand the purpose it serves.
It's not intended to "punish players." It's intended to keep players from zerging, facerolling and zombie-rushing through content, or using death as a faster way to get around the map - all the things you see quite a lot of these days.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Yes, I definitely agree with you about the universe. Extremely well done.
However, I didn't really feel like I had all that many choices. At first it felt like I did, but then I realized that the only difference in using a new approach would have been to pick up a given character earlier or something like that.
And the side missions were fairly awful.
The story and acting were very good though, and that's why I said I liked it. But again, because I'm not normally a shooter guy and the fact that it didn't feel like an open game, I ended my relationship with the series after 1. I mean, well done and all that, but I'd much rather have had at least some choices other than dialogue options. And choice of GF.
I suppose that's kind of what I mean about an interactive movie. You're along for the ride. Games should be about interesting choices in my view.
I can't elaborate it any more than I already have. You'll just have to get used to not understanding.
Vanity is widely accepted simply because it doesnt give you an advantage over others. RPing isnt a competition, its a mindset. You can add to your experience with words and color but it will never put you over someone else, never make you "better" than someone else .
Gear, potions and anything else that gives you an edge is totally different. They let you go thru content faster, with more ease and thus putting you ahead of the rest.
I have to say that this is the most intellegant and the most well written article on MMORPG ever. Allthough I am extreemly biased to the old EQ1 and I absolutly loved when they still had corpse runs and you had to type more then one word to the NPC to get a response. But unfortunatly those golden days are forever gone in EQ1 and in MMOs all together.
I find it odd that anyone need to call another game garbage just because you love its competitor.
UO has its own limitation too. The 45 degree view is way more clumsy and unnatural, relative to a FP view. The game has lots of rough edge. It degenerates fast into city entrance camping. Griefing by armored knights, mounted, grouped. Bandit world.
If you are into that kind of game, it is fun.
If you are into EQ1 type of FP view exploration, dark woprld, much more realistic (at that time in history) feeling, EQ1 is better.
Looking back today, both games have weakness. 10 years ago both games were at its prime because much better games were not there. When DAoC and SWG comes out, many PvP players left UO. When CoX and later WoW comes out, people not in favor of huge grinds moved on. You may use terms like dumb down or less sophisticated, but the fact is, enough of the original EQ/UO population see the better aspects of the new games.
You view, my view, their views.
Casuals are the future. Not nerdy hardcore people who think beating some pixels makes them some kind of VIP. Get over it. Things change. Maybe it is YOU who need to quit MMOs if you cannot deal with change?
Not really. Another grognard being all crotchity and going "meh in my day blah blah blah." I played those games too. I don't like corpse runs and all that bullshit. It was crap. You want a hardcore game find the niche ones instead of expecting every MMO to be like that.
Sure you played them? Highly doubt and if so, for sure not long and that was the good thing back in the days people throwing around offensive words didn't last long, cause you had to be nice and play well instead of being a whiny "I dont have time" person.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play."
"Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
I am from days of UO too and i find people like you annoying. There is reason why there is not another UO or EQ. But i gues it is hard to keep up with times and try to understand that you and I we are in minority.
You know what happened over the years? those gamers grew up. And yes i grew up too. I am not in college anymore where i could afford to burn hours in front of PC. You think new generation gives a damn and think 'oh man you were so cool..you did corpse runs?' no they most probably roll their eyes and think what a waste of time.
Lots of people see these as "golden days" and look back on them with a certain degree of fondness. Personally, I came to the show pretty late, but I did try out EQ and EQ2, but after the golden days. I like the idea of death meaning something, but all games, even FPS games, are reducing death penalties (the respawn on BF3 is supposed to be really short).
I guess that while it does make you more careful, and can lead to great feelings of achievement when you clear a raid/get somewhere difficult without dying, the problem is the frustration when you do die. Most people do not want to feel frustrated by their hobby, and dying and losing xp and items is a really frustrating experience, and can cause people to rage quit. Unfortunately games are so expensive to produce these days that companies are very risk-averse, and so won't do anything that may force players away.
If, however, teh industry gets over this stupid notion that an MMO needs to have WoW levels of subscribers to be considered a success, then hopefully we can see more variety in MMOs, and maybe get something more "hardcore" released. Will it be massively popular? Probably not. Will it have enough subs to subscribe? Possibly, if the rest of the game is good enough.
So that's my view. You won't get mass-market appeal with games like UO and EQ anymore, but if the industry can accept that smaller games can still be successful, maybe someone, somewhere, will release one.
I'm 30% Rock, 10% Roll, 50% Nerd and 10% Troll.
Axis of Awesome - Moderately Rock and Roll
Good post and really, thats all I am asking for. Different games for different audiences I am so sick of the one game for all audiences crap. I don't want to play with the hack n slay , fps and instant gratification crowd. I want to:
log in explore the world find a camp and have some pretty nice hours with other people, slaying the group mobs there. Not doing some stupid instances, who are more jump and run easymode style without exploration at all. This type of gameplay is only avaiable if you are playing with like minded people.
Personally I think, companies need to be smaller again and take pride in what they are making, instead of playing copycat and expecting everything under 1.000k subs as a fail.
Heres hoping ArcheAge will bring back the virtual world.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play."
"Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
Very true, I add my own version to your presentation.
I left UO and EQ too, partly because I am now too busy to play much.
I left mainly because I see less and less point in wasting precious time doing game mechanics that are just necessary but undesirable. I was trying hard to kill that damn boss in the plane of XYZ. I do not see how hours of corpse run help me do better. It only reduce the number of times I can try, and hence lower my chance of improving via trying.
Very few of the old mechanism really encourage gaming. Too few.
Those were the days when a server can only spawn a boss every 4 days, so that it feels "rare" just by artificially restricting supply, supply of something that has no natural reason for scarcity. It feels like burning all books on earth so that the few remaining copies look precious.
Those were the days where griefing is rampant.
Those were the days where hell levels artificially doubles the cost of levelling, or triple for level 49, so once again, a level 50 appears to be scarce just because it was made unnecessarily hard to get to.
Those were the days I will never go back, because I see through and will not want to be so foolish about burning my hours any more.
We all want diversity, unfortunately, it is the suppliers who does not want.
Preaching to us won't do any good though, and I have no idea how to get your wishes done.
Thank you, very nice post and you reminded me why i slap my fore head everytime i think how much time i wasted playing these games back in college when i could have just got laid lol.
Even if today i had that much free time would i ever play games like EQ and UO again? nope, old days are gone and i prefer it stays that way.
That;s what we need, different games for different audiences. Now indie games are really successful on some platforms, but the MMO is a very expensive beast.
I hate to drag WoW into this, but until it really starts to fall, and lose massive numbers of subscribers, investors will always see it as a target - "Our game will be a WoW-killer". It won't happen. I'd rather have a flatter market, with a large number of slightly smaller games (in subs, not in-game size) than WoW having over 80% of the MMO market.
I think it will happen, because games are more and more having to do things to stand out from the crowd to attract attention. Question then is - how hardcaore can they make a game while still attracting lots of subs. More than current games - certainly. As hard as EQ/UO? I really don't know.
I'm 30% Rock, 10% Roll, 50% Nerd and 10% Troll.
Axis of Awesome - Moderately Rock and Roll
Having less time to play change anything ? You didnt need to play 12 hours a day to enjoy EQ. What risk and challenge brings is a tighter community. In EQ you prolly knew half the server. How many people do we know in new games ? half of your guildmates ? Being nice is laughed at in todays community. There is no respect for others and no reason to help them.
My first char on EQ took something like 6months to reach level 50. But the journey was fun, I met a lot of nice people and had plenty of time to know them while I had my face in my spellbook. Thats what I remember the most from EQ, meeting people. I certainly banged my head on the desk a couple times after having hard corpse run but when you did something hard you felt like you earned your reward. I played UO and EQ for about 3 years each. I played every game that came out since then and while I played a couples months of DAoC, no other game kept me interested for more than 2 months.
So even if I play a lot less, I feel like there is also a lot less to do in the new games. Sure the old game had a lot more time sink. 40 minutes to take a boat is soo long, but it was a rush to get on it in time, you had people yelling that the boat had been sighted and everyone ran as fast as they could. It was a living world, immersive and made you forget the rest.
When I look at the new crowd I think they would be happy to just be given a maxed char and just go at it in arena and raids... Thats not what I liked about MMORPG. The journey, the community, the challenge and the rewards made those games.
Great, great post.
I laughed out loud several times and I agree with everything you said except for the part about corpse runs. Corpse runs can add to the game, but not necessarily so: last time I enjoyed a CR was in a MUD. In WoW they were awful and probably one of the reasons I stopped playing. Now the CR is so antiquated probably the only way to make them fun again would be if we all consensually agreed to stop playing graphical games and went back to telnet MUDs.
The thing that made them fun back in the day for me was that I earned all this epic loot that someone scirpted and went to the trouble of writing detailed descriptions for, and if I died in the way out lands of the elemental canyon I knew I had to get there before someone else did otherwise they would loot my corpse and I would lose some items, some of which were limited in the number that existed in that world. That was another reason to go adventuring with a group, so they could all build a campfire and wait for you to get back while guarding your corpse if they weren't jerks.
So I would go streaking down the roads in search of my corpse or every so often I would "see" (as real as that term gets in a text-based adventure) someone else go streaking and think "aha, there goes someone on a corpse run".
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance
Having less time to play changes everything, because EQ1 is built with a purpose to burn time. What do you do if you have say 1 hour. Nothing. You have to move to the entrance of a zone, zone in and hope there is no train. You shout for hours till there is an opening in a camp, and you are the right role. You have to solo your way in and hope you do not die. You then have to stay in the camp and farm pull, 2 minutes per pull-kill.
Now if you die in any way, good luck, you need to get back your body unless you die in a safe place.
You can do all that comfortably within an hour?
In EQ, you cannot count on being afk, not even if you are dps, never if you are tank or heal or mess. If you join a mobile camp, which means moving after every pull in a circular pattern, if someone trained your camp, if ...
EQ has its share of jerks, somehow you forgot them all. People who steal camps, steal mobs, train camps, train to zone. People who argue over right to visit planes, people who team up to monopolise a plane, a rare mob. The current community is annoying because you can hear them in channels, which you can turn off. In the East commons, people can be just as annoying, racist, slangs, everything, except that we seldom go there, unless we really want to sell a unique gear so we can farm that again.
Oh you love the artifically annoying design. 40 min wait and the need to rush there in time is nice? Your view, not mine. I despise artificially created scarcity. It is plain stupidity in my books.
EQ mobs are not more challenging. They have more hp, so it takes longer to wear them out, much like the miniboss of WoW. Apart from that, they have very little special moves. Even the plane gods are little more than big big hp monsters. Compare them to the LK, the combat mechanism of the recent well make raid bosses are much much more varied.
EQ has nothing to do besides raiding. All the talks about journey fades away after the first char, and even one character is too much for me. I find it stupid to create hell levels, super long boring grinding sessions to get a mini-ding. No crafting, no story arc, nothing. EQ just give me a world of static mobs, little combat intelligence, ultra rare drops, ultra rare boss spawns, and endless camping just to wait for the sound of "ding", The journey was not really that cool after the first character, to me that is.
WoW has a lot more to do, whether you like it or not. They have crafting, they have harvesting, they have raids, dailies, pvp zones, arenas. If you hate them too bad for you, but it is unfair to say that there is less to do in new games. There is nothing in EQ1 that is not present in our latest breed of games. You just need to find the fun, if you can.
Themepark-sandbox-sandpark-themebox-hardcore or casual,the more the merrier i say.Variety is the spice of life.
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