Oh, so because its their game, I can do anything I want with a hotel room regardless of whether there are people in it and they paid for it for the night, right? They paid for the room for the night, but I can add eroneous charges because I work for the hotel, right? Sudden charges for pillows, or blankets. Or I can hold all the shampoo and coffee at the desk and make people pay $2 each to get one of them. Right?
Noooooo, thats not the way things work and you know it.
You can do what you want with your own house, but once you start affecting the public, things change. There are rules and laws preventing such things, and if I tried that kind of thing at my hotel, people would be livid. Because its wrong. Its taking advantage of them. Simple as that.
Sudden? Not when you knew there would be extra pricing, the cost of the room has a bed, pillows and sheets in which to sleep.
Some hotels charge extra for the minibar, some charge more if you want cable. You'd complain if you were staying in a hotel and your neighbor took 3 shots of tequila (which he paid for) and say it highway roberry because it should be in the price you paid for the room? Seriously?
Oh, so because its their game, I can do anything I want with a hotel room regardless of whether there are people in it and they paid for it for the night, right? They paid for the room for the night, but I can add eroneous charges because I work for the hotel, right? Sudden charges for pillows, or blankets. Or I can hold all the shampoo and coffee at the desk and make people pay $2 each to get one of them. Right?
Noooooo, thats not the way things work and you know it.
You can do what you want with your own house, but once you start affecting the public, things change. There are rules and laws preventing such things, and if I tried that kind of thing at my hotel, people would be livid. Because its wrong. Its taking advantage of them. Simple as that.
Sudden? Not when you knew there would be extra pricing, the cost of the room has a bed, pillows and sheets in which to sleep.
Some hotels charge extra for the minibar, some charge more if you want cable. You'd complain if you were staying in a hotel and your neighbor took 3 shots of tequila (which he paid for) and say it highway roberry because it should be in the price you paid for the room? Seriously?
That's a closer analogy than what you proposed.
You still aren't getting it. If you have no other choice, and the only choice is to sleep in your car, its robbery. What happened to this country's morality somewhere along the lines? Its wrong to take advantage of people that way. Whether they know they are being taken advantage of or not. Its robbery.
Given the highly customizable nature of TSW’s characters and the fact that clothes are only a visual item, I think a clothing cash shop is fine to have in addition to a subscription fee. This business model allows for additional revenue while also allowing players to have access to unique looks they wouldn’t ordinarily have with the game.
I see many complaints a Cash Shop should not be in a subscription game at all. This statement is just too generic to make any sense to mindlessly throw it out over and over. If the items in the store are vanity only, then it is much different from those which offer an in game advantage.
Also, coupled many state if they pay a subscription, they should gain access to everything in the game. This is true only so far as the scope of what you have access to is the content developed under the budget provided by the subscription and initial purchase.
If additional content is developed, like vanity clothes, which is funded using the revenue from the sales of these virtual items in game, then it is being rather obstinate to demand you also have access to them. Your subscription free is not what is funding the project, so you have no rights to the items.
So the next complaint would be that there shouldn’t be anything in the game that my subscription doesn’t fund. This is a poor complaint and resonates from the mindset; if I cannot afford it then no one should have it.
The opposite is the complaint which asks to raise the subscription fee. This too is a poor complaint which doesn’t take into consideration those who want to play the game and could care less about vanity items. Those players shouldn’t be charged for such things they have no interest in.
The median ground is to have a basic subscription fee, which gives access to all parts of the game. Then offer to supply those who want more in the way of vanity items what they desire through additional fees. This separate cash shop will expand and grow or shrink and fail based on the revenue it produces alone and remain separate from the subscription fee.
If that would be the case nobody would complain,the problem is that only the ones willing to pay addtionally will have the chance to aquire those unique looks.
i hope that the subscription is gonna gonna be like 50cents a month otherwise TSW is gonna have a great first month and then the 2nd month will tank because all its subscribers will have their utilies shut off from lack of payment cause they wasted money on tsw
There are times when one must ask themselves is it my passion that truly frightens you? Or your own?
You still aren't getting it. If you have no other choice, and the only choice is to sleep in your car, its robbery. What happened to this country's morality somewhere along the lines? Its wrong to take advantage of people that way. Whether they know they are being taken advantage of or not. Its robbery.
I get it, but you're running on the premise that what's in the CS's a necessary to play the game. They aren't. Nowhere in any game do you need something in a CS UNLESS it is a F2P.
Again, you can still play and enjoy the game as most will, you just don't have to buy that shiny suit or blue pet. It's not like unless you buy this item, the game will crash or you won't be able to get to this place or reach lvl cap.
You always have a choice, there is no 'No choice' scenario in life, only those choices you cannot stand or bear to take.
Given the highly customizable nature of TSW’s characters and the fact that clothes are only a visual item, I think a clothing cash shop is fine to have in addition to a subscription fee. This business model allows for additional revenue while also allowing players to have access to unique looks they wouldn’t ordinarily have with the game.
I see many complaints a Cash Shop should not be in a subscription game at all. This statement is just too generic to make any sense to mindlessly throw it out over and over. If the items in the store are vanity only, then it is much different from those which offer an in game advantage.
Also, coupled many state if they pay a subscription, they should gain access to everything in the game. This is true only so far as the scope of what you have access to is the content developed under the budget provided by the subscription and initial purchase.
If additional content is developed, like vanity clothes, which is funded using the revenue from the sales of these virtual items in game, then it is being rather obstinate to demand you also have access to them. Your subscription free is not what is funding the project, so you have no rights to the items.
So the next complaint would be that there shouldn’t be anything in the game that my subscription doesn’t fund. This is a poor complaint and resonates from the mindset; if I cannot afford it then no one should have it.
The opposite is the complaint which asks to raise the subscription fee. This too is a poor complaint which doesn’t take into consideration those who want to play the game and could care less about vanity items. Those players shouldn’t be charged for such things they have no interest in.
The median ground is to have a basic subscription fee, which gives access to all parts of the game. Then offer to supply those who want more in the way of vanity items what they desire through additional fees. This separate cash shop will expand and grow or shrink and fail based on the revenue it produces alone and remain separate from the subscription fee.
If that would be the case nobody would complain,the problem is that only the ones willing to pay addtionally will have the chance to aquire those unique looks.
You literally skipped over ALL of the rest of the arguements that he made. They DIRECTLY answer your statement. Ill highlight them for you, since you seem to be hard of eyesight.
"Question everything, even the existence of a god"
I'm not surprised at all, and I honestly am starting to dislike the bridging between F2P and P2P. Though, there is one thing I agree with Bill about; it suits the setting ~but not as well as it could.
If I was the lead designer, or the PR wizard behind the shift here, I would omit the typical currency from the game in lieu of a cash-shop only conversion. Everything would still cost this money in-game, but you earn a set amount based on your levels/rankings/etc multiplied by the allowance given from subbing in the first place. Say a penny to dollar ration in-game, a sub gets you character 1500$ to spend monthly, and it's disguised as a paycheck from your organizations. Would set a real money-based economy in the game, which is a big venture these days - but I can see people calling it online gambling already. They will say it, no matter the case, so long as you can relate an in-game asset to a monetary value outside the game.
Though, it does mean the way loot works has to change, and a lot of people will be pissed there is no more treadmill to grind.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4 Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
Given the highly customizable nature of TSW’s characters and the fact that clothes are only a visual item, I think a clothing cash shop is fine to have in addition to a subscription fee. This business model allows for additional revenue while also allowing players to have access to unique looks they wouldn’t ordinarily have with the game.
I see many complaints a Cash Shop should not be in a subscription game at all. This statement is just too generic to make any sense to mindlessly throw it out over and over. If the items in the store are vanity only, then it is much different from those which offer an in game advantage.
Also, coupled many state if they pay a subscription, they should gain access to everything in the game. This is true only so far as the scope of what you have access to is the content developed under the budget provided by the subscription and initial purchase.
If additional content is developed, like vanity clothes, which is funded using the revenue from the sales of these virtual items in game, then it is being rather obstinate to demand you also have access to them. Your subscription free is not what is funding the project, so you have no rights to the items.
So the next complaint would be that there shouldn’t be anything in the game that my subscription doesn’t fund. This is a poor complaint and resonates from the mindset; if I cannot afford it then no one should have it.
The opposite is the complaint which asks to raise the subscription fee. This too is a poor complaint which doesn’t take into consideration those who want to play the game and could care less about vanity items. Those players shouldn’t be charged for such things they have no interest in.
The median ground is to have a basic subscription fee, which gives access to all parts of the game. Then offer to supply those who want more in the way of vanity items what they desire through additional fees. This separate cash shop will expand and grow or shrink and fail based on the revenue it produces alone and remain separate from the subscription fee.
If that would be the case nobody would complain,the problem is that only the ones willing to pay addtionally will have the chance to aquire those unique looks.
You literally skipped over ALL of the rest of the arguements that he made. They DIRECTLY answer your statement. Ill highlight them for you, since you seem to be hard of eyesight.
Man look, just go and press your "I win" button . I'll pass on this game anyway .Stupid me i only realised now that i'm wasing my time posting my frustrations in this thread.
It seems to me that the MMORPG community at large has gone awry. Its sad to me to see so many MMO players getting so wound up by this cashshop stuff.
As long as the items available to be bought on the cash shop are nothing more than vanity items, (I.E. different looks on items, character renames, character reskins/armor coloring, etc..) I dont see a problem with it. I want one sensible person to give me an arguement on why a cash shop selling vanity items only is a gamebreaking problem.
As I have been going through the posts up to this point, it seems to me that the arguement being made is that "Im paying for the game, I want to have access to EVERY ITEM IN THE GAME". This is absolutly absurd! If the game has just as much content at release as any other MMO rpg, then what is the harm in having some VANITY items only available to buy on the cash shop. Are players nowadays really THAT concieted that they believe that they have the right to every item that the company releases just for paying a set fee that everyone else pays? It amazes me that this is what it has come to.
If you have one of the best item sets in the game, and looking around, you see a player with a vanity item (wings, colored armor, etc) there is no reason why you should think, "Hey, Ive put less money into this game, I deserve that item as much as he does". The game will more than likely have items that are very difficult to obtain, so if you are one of those "I like to be different and have something very few players have" kind of person (myself included), then there will always be those kind of items to get. You just cant see players with items bought from the store and say "I deserve that", they payed for it, they deserve the item.
Please someone come up with a decently thought out arguement and reply to this post.
Every person has it's own reasons and what is a valid reason for me ,might seem irrational or comletly illogical to you.
For me , I want to immerse myself into world, so after I log in I don't wanna see price tag on ANYTHING even if it is just a fluff item.
Besides that players are at least theoreticaly equal in game. Of course someone want to send more time ,someone want to send more , someone want to send more but cannot , someone has worse internet connection so his lag it bigger ,etc - true , total equality is not possible.
Still there is clear distinction between things like that and selling in-game things for cash. I want that inequality in life is not transfered to a game ,so you cannot buy any advantage for cash. Be it visual advantage or sign of status as well - with fluff cosmetic items as well. (sure pl buy gold illegally ,etc but they do risk fraud, ban and other unleasant things , still I hate it but there is big diffrence between doing it ilegally and beign it official part of game used by much more players).
Another reason is that boundaries are beign tested by game developers , layers agree to P2P+vanity cash shop now? You will have P2P+advantage cash shop in next year or in next game.
Last but not least item shops never end on vanity items. WoW is an exception becasue first of all it added cash shop after how much? 6 years after release? next there is very few items there. . Not to mention that this IS in WoW is not meant to get 35% of subscrition revenue like TSW is going to. I don't like it and I don't play WoW
Also TSW officialy said that their item shop will be MOSTLY offering cosmetic and fluff so there will be some advantage items.
One more thing. It is matter of principles for me and I won't agree for above and for many more other minor reasons to be double dipped.
The REASON I pay subscrition is also to avoid ANY future exenses beside paying for big content expasnions.
So for me P2P+IS = no go ,even if that mean me not playing mmorpg's anymore and I AM aware that It might be the case.
You still aren't getting it. If you have no other choice, and the only choice is to sleep in your car, its robbery. What happened to this country's morality somewhere along the lines? Its wrong to take advantage of people that way. Whether they know they are being taken advantage of or not. Its robbery.
I get it, but you're running on the premise that what's in the CS's a necessary to play the game. They aren't. Nowhere in any game do you need something in a CS UNLESS it is a F2P.
Again, you can still play and enjoy the game as most will, you just don't have to buy that shiny suit or blue pet. It's not like unless you buy this item, the game will crash or you won't be able to get to this place or reach lvl cap.
You always have a choice, there is no 'No choice' scenario in life, only those choices you cannot stand or bear to take.
For some people, the aesthetics of their character holds equal or more importance as the combat ability. If players are able to purchase unique looks otherwise not available, it limits those players from being able to fully enjoy the game unless they spend additional money. And even if it's 'vanity' items available through play or cash shop, the potential to purchase said items diminishes the sense of accomplishment of acquiring said items.
So the whole acceptable RMT thing is a sliding scale depending on who you talk to. Honestly I think it's a hell of a lot better for most consumers to just be able to pay a flat fee and not be bombarded with cash shop nonsense.
It seems to me that the MMORPG community at large has gone awry. Its sad to me to see so many MMO players getting so wound up by this cashshop stuff.
As long as the items available to be bought on the cash shop are nothing more than vanity items, (I.E. different looks on items, character renames, character reskins/armor coloring, etc..) I dont see a problem with it. I want one sensible person to give me an arguement on why a cash shop selling vanity items only is a gamebreaking problem.
As I have been going through the posts up to this point, it seems to me that the arguement being made is that "Im paying for the game, I want to have access to EVERY ITEM IN THE GAME". This is absolutly absurd! If the game has just as much content at release as any other MMO rpg, then what is the harm in having some VANITY items only available to buy on the cash shop. Are players nowadays really THAT concieted that they believe that they have the right to every item that the company releases just for paying a set fee that everyone else pays? It amazes me that this is what it has come to.
If you have one of the best item sets in the game, and looking around, you see a player with a vanity item (wings, colored armor, etc) there is no reason why you should think, "Hey, Ive put less money into this game, I deserve that item as much as he does". The game will more than likely have items that are very difficult to obtain, so if you are one of those "I like to be different and have something very few players have" kind of person (myself included), then there will always be those kind of items to get. You just cant see players with items bought from the store and say "I deserve that", they payed for it, they deserve the item.
Please someone come up with a decently thought out arguement and reply to this post.
Every person has it's own reasons and what is a valid reason for me ,might seem irrational or comletly illogical to you.
For me , I want to immerse myself into world, so after I log in I don't wanna see price tag on ANYTHING even if it is just a fluff item.
Besides that players are at least theoreticaly equal in game. Of course someone want to send more time ,someone want to send more , someone want to send more but cannot , someone has worse internet connection so his lag it bigger ,etc - true , total equality is not possible.
Still there is clear distinction between things like that and selling in-game things for cash. I want that inequality in life is not transfered to a game ,so you cannot buy any advantage for cash. Be it visual advantage or sign of status as well - with fluff cosmetic items as well. (sure pl buy gold illegally ,etc but they do risk fraud, ban and other unleasant things , still I hate it but there is big diffrence between doing it ilegally and beign it official part of game used by much more players).
Another reason is that boundaries are beign tested by game developers , layers agree to P2P+vanity cash shop now? You will have P2P+advantage cash shop in next year or in next game.
Last but not least item shops never end on vanity items. WoW is an exception becasue first of all it added cash shop after how much? 6 years after release? next there is very few items there. . Not to mention that this IS in WoW is not meant to get 35% of subscrition revenue like TSW is going to. I don't like it and I don't play WoW
Also TSW officialy said that their item shop will be MOSTLY offering cosmetic and fluff so there will be some advantage items.
One more thing. It is matter of principles for me and I won't agree for above and for many more other minor reasons to be double dipped.
The REASON I pay subscrition is also to avoid ANY future exenses beside paying for big content expasnions.
So for me P2P+IS = no go ,even if that mean me not playing mmorpg's anymore and I AM aware that It might be the case.
Ill start here. Vanity items are in NO way giving players an advantage over one another. You are not buying an advantage with cash, you are buy a different look with it. The word Advantage implies that you will have some sort higher opportunity of success. Vanity items do not give this to a player. If you are the kind of person that looks at the guy next to you and is jealous that his shoes are brown while you just bought black ones, then you really need to learn to live with that kind of thing. Your black shoes are just as good as his brown ones.
This is a typical "slippery slope" arguement is within itself a logical fallacy. You cannot assume that because players are ok with P2P+CS, that they will also be ok with P2W. This is one of the most commonly used fallacies, so ill forgive you
Cash shops can Certainly stop at vanity items. Take League of Legends for an example. Their cash shop has only sold vanity items, and the have expressly stated that it will only EVER sell vanity items. WoW can still be an example here, WoW has implemented a CS and it refuses to sell non vanity items because they know that the players would cause chaos if they did.
If you want to avoid paying for the game, then by all means do so. You are not being FORCED to pay extra money for anything in the game. The game can be played 100% as well without paying for anything in the CS. Dont pay if you dont want to.
"Question everything, even the existence of a god"
It seems to me that the MMORPG community at large has gone awry. Its sad to me to see so many MMO players getting so wound up by this cashshop stuff.
As long as the items available to be bought on the cash shop are nothing more than vanity items, (I.E. different looks on items, character renames, character reskins/armor coloring, etc..) I dont see a problem with it. I want one sensible person to give me an arguement on why a cash shop selling vanity items only is a gamebreaking problem.
As I have been going through the posts up to this point, it seems to me that the arguement being made is that "Im paying for the game, I want to have access to EVERY ITEM IN THE GAME". This is absolutly absurd! If the game has just as much content at release as any other MMO rpg, then what is the harm in having some VANITY items only available to buy on the cash shop. Are players nowadays really THAT concieted that they believe that they have the right to every item that the company releases just for paying a set fee that everyone else pays? It amazes me that this is what it has come to.
If you have one of the best item sets in the game, and looking around, you see a player with a vanity item (wings, colored armor, etc) there is no reason why you should think, "Hey, Ive put less money into this game, I deserve that item as much as he does". The game will more than likely have items that are very difficult to obtain, so if you are one of those "I like to be different and have something very few players have" kind of person (myself included), then there will always be those kind of items to get. You just cant see players with items bought from the store and say "I deserve that", they payed for it, they deserve the item.
Please someone come up with a decently thought out arguement and reply to this post.
Every person has it's own reasons and what is a valid reason for me ,might seem irrational or comletly illogical to you.
For me , I want to immerse myself into world, so after I log in I don't wanna see price tag on ANYTHING even if it is just a fluff item.
Besides that players are at least theoreticaly equal in game. Of course someone want to send more time ,someone want to send more , someone want to send more but cannot , someone has worse internet connection so his lag it bigger ,etc - true , total equality is not possible.
Still there is clear distinction between things like that and selling in-game things for cash. I want that inequality in life is not transfered to a game ,so you cannot buy any advantage for cash. Be it visual advantage or sign of status as well - with fluff cosmetic items as well. (sure pl buy gold illegally ,etc but they do risk fraud, ban and other unleasant things , still I hate it but there is big diffrence between doing it ilegally and beign it official part of game used by much more players).
Another reason is that boundaries are beign tested by game developers , layers agree to P2P+vanity cash shop now? You will have P2P+advantage cash shop in next year or in next game.
Last but not least item shops never end on vanity items. WoW is an exception becasue first of all it added cash shop after how much? 6 years after release? next there is very few items there. . Not to mention that this IS in WoW is not meant to get 35% of subscrition revenue like TSW is going to. I don't like it and I don't play WoW
Also TSW officialy said that their item shop will be MOSTLY offering cosmetic and fluff so there will be some advantage items.
One more thing. It is matter of principles for me and I won't agree for above and for many more other minor reasons to be double dipped.
The REASON I pay subscrition is also to avoid ANY future exenses beside paying for big content expasnions.
So for me P2P+IS = no go ,even if that mean me not playing mmorpg's anymore and I AM aware that It might be the case.
Ill start here. Vanity items are in NO way giving players an advantage over one another. You are not buying an advantage with cash, you are buy a different look with it. The word Advantage implies that you will have some sort higher opportunity of success. Vanity items do not give this to a player. If you are the kind of person that looks at the guy next to you and is jealous that his shoes are brown while you just bought black ones, then you really need to learn to live with that kind of thing. Your black shoes are just as good as his brown ones.
This is a typical "slippery slope" arguement is within itself a logical fallacy. You cannot assume that because players are ok with P2P+CS, that they will also be ok with P2W. This is one of the most commonly used fallacies, so ill forgive you
Cash shops can Certainly stop at vanity items. Take League of Legends for an example. Their cash shop has only sold vanity items, and the have expressly stated that it will only EVER sell vanity items. WoW can still be an example here, WoW has implemented a CS and it refuses to sell non vanity items because they know that the players would cause chaos if they did.
If you want to avoid paying for the game, then by all means do so. You are not being FORCED to pay extra money for anything in the game. The game can be played 100% as well without paying for anything in the CS. Dont pay if you dont want to.
Some of us believe that when you pay for a sub... it should include all the content available to anyone and everyone, earned and collected from playing and paying for the game.
You can put what ever kind of sugar coating you want on it.
If it looks like chit and it smell's like chit... it probably is chit.
Point is simple Funcom = TSW, Funcom also = AOC both games have/will use P2p+cash shop. AOC just released a new content patch i'd admit it was a good sized one but changed the name to adventure pack and charged the subs at the very least $10 up till $50. Why do you think TSW will only have clothes? or non game changing items i see content as game changing missing out on dungeons and raids a whole zone. So its not just pay 2 win its pay to enjoy pay alot to enjoy. Yea in the beginng it might seem like nothing but less then a year or a year i bet you'll be subing and paying for content then wtf is the sub for? the sub is for content on avg you spend prob 179.88 ish a year using the sub system. THATS over 4 expansions you should receive in a year. Do most games give even one? usually not and the content updates show up for wht the first year and most of those patches are bug fixes if they EVEN FIX EM. Point is combining both is a rip off i could keep going on. I'm willing to pay a sub im willing to give money to game developers for their hard work, they make money if there game is good cash shop is letting them make money even if their game sucks. B2P + cash shop i could understand but why give THEM MORE MONEY when the quality of games that come out are getting worse each time. I don't understand either the people who can spend this money have no lives, only play games, mommy and daddy pay for it, rich, or even worse the next story on the news about someone who threw their money and life away to a video game.
Side note: I don't get why there doing it with this game from launch? Seriously its such a new concept for an mmo you'd think they would do as much as possible to convince people to try it not scare them away. Yea its interesting but Funcom is infamous for their bugs and lack of customer support. My opinion is all.
Ill start here. Vanity items are in NO way giving players an advantage over one another. You are not buying an advantage with cash, you are buy a different look with it. The word Advantage implies that you will have some sort higher opportunity of success. Vanity items do not give this to a player. If you are the kind of person that looks at the guy next to you and is jealous that his shoes are brown while you just bought black ones, then you really need to learn to live with that kind of thing. Your black shoes are just as good as his brown ones.
This is a typical "slippery slope" arguement is within itself a logical fallacy. You cannot assume that because players are ok with P2P+CS, that they will also be ok with P2W. This is one of the most commonly used fallacies, so ill forgive you
Cash shops can Certainly stop at vanity items. Take League of Legends for an example. Their cash shop has only sold vanity items, and the have expressly stated that it will only EVER sell vanity items. WoW can still be an example here, WoW has implemented a CS and it refuses to sell non vanity items because they know that the players would cause chaos if they did.
If you want to avoid paying for the game, then by all means do so. You are not being FORCED to pay extra money for anything in the game. The game can be played 100% as well without paying for anything in the CS. Dont pay if you dont want to.
Ad.1 First of all diffrent things are important to diffrent kinds of people. For one person having better sword is advantage , for another having better jacket is advantage. Fortunatelly we're talking about a game and in a game I don't have to live with that kind of thing , I can refuse to play it and convince my friends to not play this game but play another one with me.
Ad.2 When reality and possibilities chance around you , many people opinions on what's acceptable and what is not change as well. So when P2P+Vanity Cash Shop will become standard for a longer time , then to some people used to it P2P+advantage Cash Shop will become ok as well. It is really simple psychological fact. That's why certain changes are made slowly step by step. Go to any f2p game forum and read topics since beggining about what is in cash shops. What is inexcluseable at beggining , after community get used to certain things it becomes easier to swallow later. Best examle is Lotro. I can pinpoint certain users that slowly started changing their opinions over months when bit by bit were more advantage items brough into store. If they were brought from beggining they would not accept it. Really don't wanna make this explanation any longer especially that it is late where I live. It is 101 of Psychology of Marketting , any student learn this kind of things on most basic course.
Ad.3 League of Legends in totally diffrent type of game I would refrain from analogies with it and mmorpg's. Besides I know LoL model and personally don't have anything against current F2P in it. I would have everything against that kind of shop in mmorpg's becasue I play mmorpg's for totally DIFFRENT reasons that I play Moba games or strategy games or FPS , etc
Ad4. You really don't understand I think. It is not about how much money I need to spend (of course to some extent). I would gladly pay f.e. 20$ / month of subscrition to play TSW without ANY item shop.
Problem is not if Item Shop is optional or not. Problem is that this Cash Shop EXIST in game. I just don't want to have it in game I play. Simple.
One more thing. I had this kind of longer conversations few times already. I did research long time ago F2P / Freemium model and whole concept of monetarizing a game (that include DLC's , RMAH , premium services , cash shops and few other ways to monetarize a game). I did read documents , presentations from conferences , articles in economy magazines etc that I could get my hands on. There were already Masters degree and PhD works on this matter. Whole idea is not new - it is actually from 90's , monetarization and microtransactions concept already was discussed then. One of advocate and pionners was Microsoft which is a bit weird as it is not using it much atm yet.
Why I did all that? I am interested in economy and business generally for quite some time already and those are interesting concepts to learn about.
Anyway let's get to the point. I have already strong opinion about it as consumer and you won't convince me. Sorry for beign so blunt about it.
I am never gonna agree to cash shop in P2P MMORPG.
It is so sad to see some fans and others try to defend this. The new trend in everything seems to be "don't fight it because it is inevitable" and the ridiculous assumption as fact "you'll still play it anyway."
Gamers didn't fight DRM, and now there are schemes such as the upcoming Origin and Ubisoft's must login online even to play singleplayer. Gamers aren't fighting DLC being withheld from games and released on the release date with the game separately.
We, as consumers, have the ability to mold the future of the industry. We control what is allowed, by showing dissatisfaction with our wallets. When we give up on that, we give the industry more and more to the monetary interests that have no interest in games and only have interest in money.. the bottom line...what more abuses and tricks can be used to take peoples' money. It is never too late to show dissatisfaction and refuse to buy such products. Everything, including DRM, DLC, and cash shops, on top of subscriptions and expansions, can be stopped.
Asheron's Call had monthly updates with bug fixes, a storyline, added content, etc for free. Look at what gamers have allowed to happen since.
Take a stand and ignore the fans and other interests that work to allow these abuses.
The majority of all the gaming communities are made up of kids,which are EASY to trick,heck,it's not weven their money they spend.The devs know this and that;'s why it works.
can you back it up?what you provided is null,kids don't bother completing quizes and the like.
You made that assertive claim that most gamers are kids so it is up to you to provide proof, not me. I simply was saying that according to that, they are in their 30s.
True i can't back it up either but it is by nature more likely a kid would play a game than an adult with a full time job and possibly a family to take care of.You know this yourself.
Don't tell me what I know and what I don't. I know that I have money as an adult and still play plenty with a family. Kids only have access to so much in funds.
Kids have school and homework too, it's not like they have unlimited free time. Less money, a bit more free time - roughly equal footing to an adult I'd say. Games though have had a tough time of growing out of the "games are for kids" or "games are for geeks" stigma. It wears away but slowly. Many adults in my peer group either never played, or grew out of it - this is a much bigger factor than not having time. The ones who enjoy playing games find time, or find the right game that fits their schedules.
Another very poorly written article from mmorpg.com. It's not even about whether I agree with the viewpoint or not, but lately there have been a ton of articles which are very badly organized or stated. None of the content of the article tells me why a cash shop game for TSW makes sense. P2P+cash shop is happening though, and not just in this game. I think the game is good enough to be worth at least checking out. I will treat the cash shop like I always do - like it doesn't exist.
I liked the hotel analogy. Why are you mad that your friend pays a little extra to get a tequila from the mini-fridge? If a tequila from a mini fridge is worth a bit extra to you, you have the same opportunity to pay for it. If it's not worth it, don't buy it. Nothing in paying for the room says that you will have access to free tequila. If it's a nice hotel, I will still go away from the hotel with a nice impression of it, and probably recommend it.
If they charge extra for pillows I will find another motel. And of course, motels with complementary tequilas get bonus points - but I think we are headed to a world where that is a rarity.
By all means though, if this is an important issue to you, don't give funcom/ea your money on this one. Just don't throw rotten eggs at me if I do.
many games have a P2P + CS it is not funcom alone, so please, stop with the funcom hate.
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if you don't like it this way, please, stop bitching, just go away.
I see more like hate towards P2P+CS not towards Funcom especially. Another thing is that most P2P games don't release with CS but add it years later (don't make it much better but still) and definately don't plan making such big revenue source from it. (35% of subscription revenue).
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This is open forum, get used that many people will have diffrent opinions and that they will state it many times.
Make it more about name changes, server transfers and the like.
Charging people for wanting to play with their friends because the game is designed like an MMO from 2002 is awful. One of the best things Rift did was to stop charging for this. It's nickle and diming at its worst and it's neither good for the company nor the players.
Friends keep friends playing and anything ... ANYTHING .... that creates a barrier to solving that business and game design problem is bad. Basic economics.
It seems to me that the MMORPG community at large has gone awry. Its sad to me to see so many MMO players getting so wound up by this cashshop stuff.
As long as the items available to be bought on the cash shop are nothing more than vanity items, (I.E. different looks on items, character renames, character reskins/armor coloring, etc..) I dont see a problem with it. I want one sensible person to give me an arguement on why a cash shop selling vanity items only is a gamebreaking problem.
As I have been going through the posts up to this point, it seems to me that the arguement being made is that "Im paying for the game, I want to have access to EVERY ITEM IN THE GAME". This is absolutly absurd! If the game has just as much content at release as any other MMO rpg, then what is the harm in having some VANITY items only available to buy on the cash shop. Are players nowadays really THAT concieted that they believe that they have the right to every item that the company releases just for paying a set fee that everyone else pays? It amazes me that this is what it has come to.
If you have one of the best item sets in the game, and looking around, you see a player with a vanity item (wings, colored armor, etc) there is no reason why you should think, "Hey, Ive put less money into this game, I deserve that item as much as he does". The game will more than likely have items that are very difficult to obtain, so if you are one of those "I like to be different and have something very few players have" kind of person (myself included), then there will always be those kind of items to get. You just cant see players with items bought from the store and say "I deserve that", they payed for it, they deserve the item.
Please someone come up with a decently thought out arguement and reply to this post.
Every person has it's own reasons and what is a valid reason for me ,might seem irrational or comletly illogical to you.
For me , I want to immerse myself into world, so after I log in I don't wanna see price tag on ANYTHING even if it is just a fluff item.
Besides that players are at least theoreticaly equal in game. Of course someone want to send more time ,someone want to send more , someone want to send more but cannot , someone has worse internet connection so his lag it bigger ,etc - true , total equality is not possible.
Still there is clear distinction between things like that and selling in-game things for cash. I want that inequality in life is not transfered to a game ,so you cannot buy any advantage for cash. Be it visual advantage or sign of status as well - with fluff cosmetic items as well. (sure pl buy gold illegally ,etc but they do risk fraud, ban and other unleasant things , still I hate it but there is big diffrence between doing it ilegally and beign it official part of game used by much more players).
Another reason is that boundaries are beign tested by game developers , layers agree to P2P+vanity cash shop now? You will have P2P+advantage cash shop in next year or in next game.
Last but not least item shops never end on vanity items. WoW is an exception becasue first of all it added cash shop after how much? 6 years after release? next there is very few items there. . Not to mention that this IS in WoW is not meant to get 35% of subscrition revenue like TSW is going to. I don't like it and I don't play WoW
Also TSW officialy said that their item shop will be MOSTLY offering cosmetic and fluff so there will be some advantage items.
One more thing. It is matter of principles for me and I won't agree for above and for many more other minor reasons to be double dipped.
The REASON I pay subscrition is also to avoid ANY future exenses beside paying for big content expasnions.
So for me P2P+IS = no go ,even if that mean me not playing mmorpg's anymore and I AM aware that It might be the case.
Ill start here. Vanity items are in NO way giving players an advantage over one another. You are not buying an advantage with cash, you are buy a different look with it. The word Advantage implies that you will have some sort higher opportunity of success. Vanity items do not give this to a player. If you are the kind of person that looks at the guy next to you and is jealous that his shoes are brown while you just bought black ones, then you really need to learn to live with that kind of thing. Your black shoes are just as good as his brown ones.
This is a typical "slippery slope" arguement is within itself a logical fallacy. You cannot assume that because players are ok with P2P+CS, that they will also be ok with P2W. This is one of the most commonly used fallacies, so ill forgive you
Cash shops can Certainly stop at vanity items. Take League of Legends for an example. Their cash shop has only sold vanity items, and the have expressly stated that it will only EVER sell vanity items. WoW can still be an example here, WoW has implemented a CS and it refuses to sell non vanity items because they know that the players would cause chaos if they did.
If you want to avoid paying for the game, then by all means do so. You are not being FORCED to pay extra money for anything in the game. The game can be played 100% as well without paying for anything in the CS. Dont pay if you dont want to.
Some of us believe that when you pay for a sub... it should include all the content available to anyone and everyone, earned and collected from playing and paying for the game.
You can put what ever kind of sugar coating you want on it.
If it looks like chit and it smell's like chit... it probably is chit.
What hate toward Funcom? its just a game company and its not like they pulled an SOE on anyone. I could care less about Funcom. I do care about cash shops versus pay to play and thats what I've been talking about.
I see this as becoming how APB: Reloaded is now. They take all the REALLY cool items that you will REALLY want out of the game and put them in the cash shop, forcing you to play the game as a sad panda, or play the game as a sad panda with a lot less money.
Now if APB had a monthly subscription I would tell them to get F****** but it's F2P so I can understand. TSW, on the other hand, wants me to pay a monthly fee as well.
If I can't get the items in-game or if they make it take a ridiculous amount of time to get them, then I won't be playing and I really hope that nobody will support that either.
I remember a general thread like this about 6 months ago. I was on the 'if it doesn't affect gameplay side, who cares?" After going back and forth with various posters, I came over to their side. Subscription is premium service. If I'm paying a premium to play a game, I should get the whole game. If Funcom wants to include cash shop items, they should include it in the premium sub. They could also have a lower nonpremium sub where you can purchase cash shop items.
In the long run, I think Funcom's planned business model will hurt them. They may get more cash initially but, less players (myself included). Less players means less long term subs and less game fun when your looking for a group to do something.
I know it's just a game but, when somebody's business practice bothers me, I stop using that business. Funcom or Walmart.
Comments
Sudden? Not when you knew there would be extra pricing, the cost of the room has a bed, pillows and sheets in which to sleep.
Some hotels charge extra for the minibar, some charge more if you want cable. You'd complain if you were staying in a hotel and your neighbor took 3 shots of tequila (which he paid for) and say it highway roberry because it should be in the price you paid for the room? Seriously?
That's a closer analogy than what you proposed.
You still aren't getting it. If you have no other choice, and the only choice is to sleep in your car, its robbery. What happened to this country's morality somewhere along the lines? Its wrong to take advantage of people that way. Whether they know they are being taken advantage of or not. Its robbery.
If that would be the case nobody would complain,the problem is that only the ones willing to pay addtionally will have the chance to aquire those unique looks.
i hope that the subscription is gonna gonna be like 50cents a month otherwise TSW is gonna have a great first month and then the 2nd month will tank because all its subscribers will have their utilies shut off from lack of payment cause they wasted money on tsw
There are times when one must ask themselves is it my passion that truly frightens you? Or your own?
I get it, but you're running on the premise that what's in the CS's a necessary to play the game. They aren't. Nowhere in any game do you need something in a CS UNLESS it is a F2P.
Again, you can still play and enjoy the game as most will, you just don't have to buy that shiny suit or blue pet. It's not like unless you buy this item, the game will crash or you won't be able to get to this place or reach lvl cap.
You always have a choice, there is no 'No choice' scenario in life, only those choices you cannot stand or bear to take.
You literally skipped over ALL of the rest of the arguements that he made. They DIRECTLY answer your statement. Ill highlight them for you, since you seem to be hard of eyesight.
"Question everything, even the existence of a god"
I'm not surprised at all, and I honestly am starting to dislike the bridging between F2P and P2P. Though, there is one thing I agree with Bill about; it suits the setting ~but not as well as it could.
If I was the lead designer, or the PR wizard behind the shift here, I would omit the typical currency from the game in lieu of a cash-shop only conversion. Everything would still cost this money in-game, but you earn a set amount based on your levels/rankings/etc multiplied by the allowance given from subbing in the first place. Say a penny to dollar ration in-game, a sub gets you character 1500$ to spend monthly, and it's disguised as a paycheck from your organizations. Would set a real money-based economy in the game, which is a big venture these days - but I can see people calling it online gambling already. They will say it, no matter the case, so long as you can relate an in-game asset to a monetary value outside the game.
Though, it does mean the way loot works has to change, and a lot of people will be pissed there is no more treadmill to grind.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
Man look, just go and press your "I win" button . I'll pass on this game anyway .Stupid me i only realised now that i'm wasing my time posting my frustrations in this thread.
PS:I didn't read the highlighted paragraphs.
Every person has it's own reasons and what is a valid reason for me ,might seem irrational or comletly illogical to you.
For me , I want to immerse myself into world, so after I log in I don't wanna see price tag on ANYTHING even if it is just a fluff item.
Besides that players are at least theoreticaly equal in game. Of course someone want to send more time ,someone want to send more , someone want to send more but cannot , someone has worse internet connection so his lag it bigger ,etc - true , total equality is not possible.
Still there is clear distinction between things like that and selling in-game things for cash. I want that inequality in life is not transfered to a game ,so you cannot buy any advantage for cash. Be it visual advantage or sign of status as well - with fluff cosmetic items as well. (sure pl buy gold illegally ,etc but they do risk fraud, ban and other unleasant things , still I hate it but there is big diffrence between doing it ilegally and beign it official part of game used by much more players).
Another reason is that boundaries are beign tested by game developers , layers agree to P2P+vanity cash shop now? You will have P2P+advantage cash shop in next year or in next game.
Last but not least item shops never end on vanity items. WoW is an exception becasue first of all it added cash shop after how much? 6 years after release? next there is very few items there. . Not to mention that this IS in WoW is not meant to get 35% of subscrition revenue like TSW is going to. I don't like it and I don't play WoW
Also TSW officialy said that their item shop will be MOSTLY offering cosmetic and fluff so there will be some advantage items.
One more thing. It is matter of principles for me and I won't agree for above and for many more other minor reasons to be double dipped.
The REASON I pay subscrition is also to avoid ANY future exenses beside paying for big content expasnions.
So for me P2P+IS = no go ,even if that mean me not playing mmorpg's anymore and I AM aware that It might be the case.
For some people, the aesthetics of their character holds equal or more importance as the combat ability. If players are able to purchase unique looks otherwise not available, it limits those players from being able to fully enjoy the game unless they spend additional money. And even if it's 'vanity' items available through play or cash shop, the potential to purchase said items diminishes the sense of accomplishment of acquiring said items.
So the whole acceptable RMT thing is a sliding scale depending on who you talk to. Honestly I think it's a hell of a lot better for most consumers to just be able to pay a flat fee and not be bombarded with cash shop nonsense.
Ill start here. Vanity items are in NO way giving players an advantage over one another. You are not buying an advantage with cash, you are buy a different look with it. The word Advantage implies that you will have some sort higher opportunity of success. Vanity items do not give this to a player. If you are the kind of person that looks at the guy next to you and is jealous that his shoes are brown while you just bought black ones, then you really need to learn to live with that kind of thing. Your black shoes are just as good as his brown ones.
This is a typical "slippery slope" arguement is within itself a logical fallacy. You cannot assume that because players are ok with P2P+CS, that they will also be ok with P2W. This is one of the most commonly used fallacies, so ill forgive you
Cash shops can Certainly stop at vanity items. Take League of Legends for an example. Their cash shop has only sold vanity items, and the have expressly stated that it will only EVER sell vanity items. WoW can still be an example here, WoW has implemented a CS and it refuses to sell non vanity items because they know that the players would cause chaos if they did.
If you want to avoid paying for the game, then by all means do so. You are not being FORCED to pay extra money for anything in the game. The game can be played 100% as well without paying for anything in the CS. Dont pay if you dont want to.
"Question everything, even the existence of a god"
Some of us believe that when you pay for a sub... it should include all the content available to anyone and everyone, earned and collected from playing and paying for the game.
You can put what ever kind of sugar coating you want on it.
If it looks like chit and it smell's like chit... it probably is chit.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
Point is simple Funcom = TSW, Funcom also = AOC both games have/will use P2p+cash shop. AOC just released a new content patch i'd admit it was a good sized one but changed the name to adventure pack and charged the subs at the very least $10 up till $50. Why do you think TSW will only have clothes? or non game changing items i see content as game changing missing out on dungeons and raids a whole zone. So its not just pay 2 win its pay to enjoy pay alot to enjoy. Yea in the beginng it might seem like nothing but less then a year or a year i bet you'll be subing and paying for content then wtf is the sub for? the sub is for content on avg you spend prob 179.88 ish a year using the sub system. THATS over 4 expansions you should receive in a year. Do most games give even one? usually not and the content updates show up for wht the first year and most of those patches are bug fixes if they EVEN FIX EM. Point is combining both is a rip off i could keep going on. I'm willing to pay a sub im willing to give money to game developers for their hard work, they make money if there game is good cash shop is letting them make money even if their game sucks. B2P + cash shop i could understand but why give THEM MORE MONEY when the quality of games that come out are getting worse each time. I don't understand either the people who can spend this money have no lives, only play games, mommy and daddy pay for it, rich, or even worse the next story on the news about someone who threw their money and life away to a video game.
Side note: I don't get why there doing it with this game from launch? Seriously its such a new concept for an mmo you'd think they would do as much as possible to convince people to try it not scare them away. Yea its interesting but Funcom is infamous for their bugs and lack of customer support. My opinion is all.
Ad.1 First of all diffrent things are important to diffrent kinds of people. For one person having better sword is advantage , for another having better jacket is advantage. Fortunatelly we're talking about a game and in a game I don't have to live with that kind of thing , I can refuse to play it and convince my friends to not play this game but play another one with me.
Ad.2 When reality and possibilities chance around you , many people opinions on what's acceptable and what is not change as well. So when P2P+Vanity Cash Shop will become standard for a longer time , then to some people used to it P2P+advantage Cash Shop will become ok as well. It is really simple psychological fact. That's why certain changes are made slowly step by step. Go to any f2p game forum and read topics since beggining about what is in cash shops. What is inexcluseable at beggining , after community get used to certain things it becomes easier to swallow later. Best examle is Lotro. I can pinpoint certain users that slowly started changing their opinions over months when bit by bit were more advantage items brough into store. If they were brought from beggining they would not accept it. Really don't wanna make this explanation any longer especially that it is late where I live. It is 101 of Psychology of Marketting , any student learn this kind of things on most basic course.
Ad.3 League of Legends in totally diffrent type of game I would refrain from analogies with it and mmorpg's. Besides I know LoL model and personally don't have anything against current F2P in it. I would have everything against that kind of shop in mmorpg's becasue I play mmorpg's for totally DIFFRENT reasons that I play Moba games or strategy games or FPS , etc
Ad4. You really don't understand I think. It is not about how much money I need to spend (of course to some extent). I would gladly pay f.e. 20$ / month of subscrition to play TSW without ANY item shop.
Problem is not if Item Shop is optional or not. Problem is that this Cash Shop EXIST in game. I just don't want to have it in game I play. Simple.
One more thing. I had this kind of longer conversations few times already. I did research long time ago F2P / Freemium model and whole concept of monetarizing a game (that include DLC's , RMAH , premium services , cash shops and few other ways to monetarize a game). I did read documents , presentations from conferences , articles in economy magazines etc that I could get my hands on. There were already Masters degree and PhD works on this matter. Whole idea is not new - it is actually from 90's , monetarization and microtransactions concept already was discussed then. One of advocate and pionners was Microsoft which is a bit weird as it is not using it much atm yet.
Why I did all that? I am interested in economy and business generally for quite some time already and those are interesting concepts to learn about.
Anyway let's get to the point. I have already strong opinion about it as consumer and you won't convince me. Sorry for beign so blunt about it.
I am never gonna agree to cash shop in P2P MMORPG.
Don't tell me what I know and what I don't. I know that I have money as an adult and still play plenty with a family. Kids only have access to so much in funds.
Kids have school and homework too, it's not like they have unlimited free time. Less money, a bit more free time - roughly equal footing to an adult I'd say. Games though have had a tough time of growing out of the "games are for kids" or "games are for geeks" stigma. It wears away but slowly. Many adults in my peer group either never played, or grew out of it - this is a much bigger factor than not having time. The ones who enjoy playing games find time, or find the right game that fits their schedules.
Another very poorly written article from mmorpg.com. It's not even about whether I agree with the viewpoint or not, but lately there have been a ton of articles which are very badly organized or stated. None of the content of the article tells me why a cash shop game for TSW makes sense. P2P+cash shop is happening though, and not just in this game. I think the game is good enough to be worth at least checking out. I will treat the cash shop like I always do - like it doesn't exist.
I liked the hotel analogy. Why are you mad that your friend pays a little extra to get a tequila from the mini-fridge? If a tequila from a mini fridge is worth a bit extra to you, you have the same opportunity to pay for it. If it's not worth it, don't buy it. Nothing in paying for the room says that you will have access to free tequila. If it's a nice hotel, I will still go away from the hotel with a nice impression of it, and probably recommend it.
If they charge extra for pillows I will find another motel. And of course, motels with complementary tequilas get bonus points - but I think we are headed to a world where that is a rarity.
By all means though, if this is an important issue to you, don't give funcom/ea your money on this one. Just don't throw rotten eggs at me if I do.
-The cash shop is vanity only.
-Ragnar said that the vanity itens can be obtained in-game, without using real life money.
-EA has no word in this game, please, stop citing "EA" in anything TSW related that has nothing to do with publishing.
many games have a P2P + CS it is not funcom alone, so please, stop with the funcom hate.
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if you don't like it this way, please, stop bitching, just go away.
Funcom hate?
All I read here is a debate over p2p with a cash shop
just go away? go away from what?
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
If you can't handle different opinions, then you should be the one that goes away.
I see more like hate towards P2P+CS not towards Funcom especially. Another thing is that most P2P games don't release with CS but add it years later (don't make it much better but still) and definately don't plan making such big revenue source from it. (35% of subscription revenue).
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This is open forum, get used that many people will have diffrent opinions and that they will state it many times.
Also stop QQ about other people QQ'ing.
Consider going away yourself.
Make it more about name changes, server transfers and the like.
Charging people for wanting to play with their friends because the game is designed like an MMO from 2002 is awful. One of the best things Rift did was to stop charging for this. It's nickle and diming at its worst and it's neither good for the company nor the players.
Friends keep friends playing and anything ... ANYTHING .... that creates a barrier to solving that business and game design problem is bad. Basic economics.
If you don't worry about it, it's not a problem.
Bang, you and Suula hit it square in the middle.
What hate toward Funcom? its just a game company and its not like they pulled an SOE on anyone. I could care less about Funcom. I do care about cash shops versus pay to play and thats what I've been talking about.
I see this as becoming how APB: Reloaded is now. They take all the REALLY cool items that you will REALLY want out of the game and put them in the cash shop, forcing you to play the game as a sad panda, or play the game as a sad panda with a lot less money.
Now if APB had a monthly subscription I would tell them to get F****** but it's F2P so I can understand. TSW, on the other hand, wants me to pay a monthly fee as well.
If I can't get the items in-game or if they make it take a ridiculous amount of time to get them, then I won't be playing and I really hope that nobody will support that either.
I remember a general thread like this about 6 months ago. I was on the 'if it doesn't affect gameplay side, who cares?" After going back and forth with various posters, I came over to their side. Subscription is premium service. If I'm paying a premium to play a game, I should get the whole game. If Funcom wants to include cash shop items, they should include it in the premium sub. They could also have a lower nonpremium sub where you can purchase cash shop items.
In the long run, I think Funcom's planned business model will hurt them. They may get more cash initially but, less players (myself included). Less players means less long term subs and less game fun when your looking for a group to do something.
I know it's just a game but, when somebody's business practice bothers me, I stop using that business. Funcom or Walmart.