And I feel really bad for you if you think the ony staying power of MMO's is raiding. I fall into the majority of MMO players who dislike raiding (some of us do it but we don't find it fun) and are very happy to see it gone and replaced with stuff that is actual fun that you can make friends off of (World vs World vs World and dynamic events).
AMEN!
Waiting for Guild Wars 2, and maybe SWTOR until that time...
Just to answer the topic. Look at DCUO, it has endgame, where is it now? Look at Rift, without rifts where would it be? The reason WoW has staying power is because it has a strong community, it has nothing to do with raids or traditional "endgame".
Well, i all comes down to content offered.. See end game is just that ''End game'', if the turn out alot of dynamic events, then people will start to complain that they have experience it or seen it before.. The community has some part to play in the ''End Game experiece'', the why i've experienced it is that, when most person are leveling they could careless less what another player was doing, when you reach the end is a total different feeling. If ArenaNet is smart (which i don't doubt) they will leave some of the more cooler dynamic events for end game stuff..
The game ends when you stop playing. Just like Guild Wars 1 theres always something to shoot for. If you somehow gdid all the content in GW1, it would probably have taken years. I've been playing since launch and havent done even 50% of its content.
2 bosses maybe hard , or atleast were, but ragnaros for 1 fact is recycled trash and even the WOW firelands trailer on this dam SITE says PUG FRIENDLY so yes, you can pug ragnaros. The who dam fight is intented to be killed by pugs. thats what has become of raiding. And the only thing people do in raiding games now is, stay in the main city come online kill some bosses for the 100th time. or do some arena matched for your points. that is not called fun.
No. Raiding is not mandatory for lasting appeal. If someone thinks so, they need to play different games more.
I agree with the above..... The minute someone says end game we know a couple of things ... The game has no general longevity and a lazy design concept has been applied.
MMOs should be all about Community / Longevity and fun..... Insta win and Endgame do not fit in my opinion. With some gameplay thrown in for good measure (most important).
________________________________________________________ Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
Just to answer the topic. Look at DCUO, it has endgame, where is it now? Look at Rift, without rifts where would it be? The reason WoW has staying power is because it has a strong community, it has nothing to do with raids or traditional "endgame".
True.. True, i have friend who log on in wow just to see how eveyone is and if they feel like raiding they jump right in raid. and they have been doing that for years.. So yea the community has alot to do with the ''endgame'' experience. Eventually all content that is being released will get old faster and faster.. Take note your playing a game which hasn't fundamentally change in years. WoW has become such game (not knocking it), where people return for xpac's then in one month or less leave, becuase the game is fundamentally the same just a few new experience here and there.. Looking a GW2 i can say some people will just log on becuase the Enviroment (espically the main cities), strike them as cool.
I just dont know how to call posts OPs, arrogance ? ignorance ? stupidity ? or all topgether ? Just becouse game doesnt offers YOURs prefered endgame why should it mean it doesnt have any ? srsly ... I have raided with so many keyboard turning clickers that calling raiding hard or hardcore comes to me as serious joke.
To ppl like OP only end game that exists is raiding, well to me to thats partialy true too - moment i find that only left progression for me is to go raid = end game aka cancel subscription ... :P
For raiders there is no end game and they will proly leave soon, but they wont be missed at least by me.
Just to answer the topic. Look at DCUO, it has endgame, where is it now? Look at Rift, without rifts where would it be? The reason WoW has staying power is because it has a strong community, it has nothing to do with raids or traditional "endgame".
WoW and strong community in the same sentence??
You high?
If anything WoW has no community at all.
I actually feel really bad for you if all you know is WoW community
Nope, endgame is the dumbest thing to ever be developed. Or at least in the way of progression gear raiding that has taken over most MMOs. It should have always been about the adventure, story, exploration, and most of all socialism with your fellow players. Progressing your character through permanent horizontal stats is the better way to go about an endgame of sorts, so I'm glad GW2 hopefully won't be following the progression-raid trend!
I completely agree with this.
In GW2, the entire game is viable content for a level 80. You won't be playing one game to level 80, then switching to playing in a completely different manner once you hit the cap. As a level 80, you will have access to all the Dynamic Event Chains in the world. With World vs. World vs. World, because of the way it's designed, will likely have appeal even to players who, in the past, weren't big fans of PVP. GW2 offers players more viable content once they reach the level cap than any other MMO I've ever seen or heard of.
A small percent of the MMO gaming audience may not be able to adapt to a game with out end game raids and endless end game gear grinds, but that's ok, because almost every other major MMO offers that.
Remember, being Buy to Play, rather than subscription based, it will be very easy to play GW2 and maintain a subscription based MMO as well, for those that care to do so. People can do their weekend end game raids in other games and come to GW2 for the game play. I have a feeling that a number of people that do so will find themselves wanting to play GW2, more than their end game treadmill titles, once they start to adjust to the game experience that GW2 will offer.
Like many here said, its the journey not the destination that should be enjoyed. Although, when I get to the destination you will find me pvping like crazy
I will be travelling the world, encountering new things for many months. Staying power is not one of the things I am remotely worried about. I am more concerned about how it will consume many hours of my life which I should be spending on other things such as work
So at max lvl pvers will be able to work for cosmetic items and titles. Since this is not gear focused everyone will be in the best stat without much effort? Not sure that cosmetic items and titles will pve people around for long.
The nice thing about this thread is that it proves what I was always saying: The hardcore raiding demographic is tiny compared to every other demographic. You could cater to every other demographic, completely leave them out, and still end up with a game that's a massive success, simply becasue the numbers are so very, very small. Even here on MMORPG.com, which one might consider to be a more hardcore source, at a niche location, with a limited amount of voters, I'd expect the numbers to even out. But no! Even here the numbers paint the hardcore raiders as a tiny minority.
What this absolutely proves is that most people are too busy to care about end game raiding. They have a couple of hours a day to spend on a game, if that. I have a friend in University who's only able to play for about 4-8 hours a week, either in big chunks or split up into little ones. With a game all he wants is a game that will last, that has enough content, and perhaps one that he can play. He has no visions about squandering his valuable time with 'end game,' and making that a second, virtual job when he has real work to do. What this says is that the hardcore minority just need to find better ways to manage their time.
Spending most of your time, for years, raiding. Is that a life well spent? Is it? I don't think it is. Is having actual fun in short bursts with actual friends more fulfilling? I think it is. I play Champions Online in short bursts but I never go in alone. I wait for one of my friends to log on and I head in with them, it satisfies me more that way. We can goof off, we can do silly little roleplays, we can try to break the game, we can sit on things and take silly screenshots, and we can play the content.
If the hardcore minority weren't in such a gorram rush to hit the level cap they'd find the game would last them longer.
My advice?
Examine how you play MMORPGs.
Get some friends outside of the game.
Manage your time in the game better, limit yourself.
Find other activities and hobbies to console yourself with.
If you really want to work but you're unemployed, try volunteer/charity work.
I just think that some people do nothing by sit in front of an MMORPG for 24 hours a day. I only post rarely here because I spend my time carefully, I have other things to do, and so should everyone. There's more to life than a bloody game. If your brain is so hacked that you can't see that then you need to reevalute what you know, you need to do a bit of self discovery or rediscovery, and perhaps a little reinvention. I'm not saying 'get out more' but I am saying 'diversify!'
If the hardcore minority did that, then we wouldn't even need these threads. And really, when I say 'hardcore' I don't really mean 'hardcore' because they're as casual as my friends and I. No, I mean people with too much time on their hands. See, these 'hardcore' types wouldn't last two seconds in a game like Mortal Online, this is why they whine about how casual games should have repetitive, long-winded content that takes 3-5 hours to complete with 'l33t gear with ph4t numbers' at the end of it, just so that they can feel that their timesink was a worthy one, so that they can be better than other casual people.
It's ridiculous.
Frankly, for the sake of the hardcore minority, i'm glad that ArenaNet aren't catering to them. Blizzard did horrible things with WoW to get people hooked on it like crack addicts. But really, please, read a book. Or something. Theatre! Have you ever been to a live theatrical performance? The experience is sublime. Do stuff! If you didn't spend 110 hours (or more!) a week playing the same game, you wouldn't feel the need for long-winded, repetitive content that lasts that long.
I can't help but be preachy but really... there is more to life. I hope that what's considered 'endgame' by the OP never, ever curses Guild Wars 2. Play the game slowly, savour it, enjoy it, make the moments sublime, have fun, don't rush, and don't try to complete every damned bit of content with one character. If you do that the you don't even need 'endgame.' What gets me about all this is that the desire for 'endgame' is a deficiency of understanding and a lack of the willingness to actually do things on the part of the hardcore. But I promise you, diversifying is worth it.
This reality doesn't have everything that I want of it, either, but what's there is enjoyable. Sample it as you would sample the game.
The whole thing with a lack of raiding. Finally, it's about bloody time. I absolutely hated the concept of being stuck on a treadmill always trying to get the next new piece of gear that's just slightly out of reach. It's an old outdated concept from the days of early MMO's when they needed to attract new players and keep them interested so the genre could grow. ArenaNet is throwing out whatever isn't fun in MMO's and for the majority of players raiding and a gear treadmill is anything but fun.
That has to be one of the most assinine states i've read on these forums.
If you had nothing to obtain.. gear, mounts, achievements or whatever... what would keep you playing. The concept of no end game raiding in an MMO is laughable. Running around all day crafting, doing 5mans or maybe even PvP would get old fast and there would be no longevity to the game.
Longevity for an MMO is based around a simple set of events..
Level Up
Gear Up
5 Mans to gear up for raiding
End Game Raiding
MMOs with out end game raiding is like a Relationship without sex.. It gets old fast.
SAYS WHO?????????? YOU!!!!! Do some freaking research Sir! The raiding crowd is the smallest playerbase in any given game. It stands to wonder that a game like Rift and/or WoW which are clearly a endgame raid centric game with raiding as the ONLY source of progression post level cap and less then 10% of the playerbase even bothers to see that content.
Its damn high time that a developer sees this idiotic and assanine source of playstyle and nix it in the bud, leaving all their resources open to developing small and solo style gameplay elements, in other words developing content for the vast majority of gamers.
Might I suggest if you dont like it dont buy it or dont play it, the rest of us will enjoy the **** out of the Anet development process intended to cater to the other 90% of the playerbase, as it should be. I hear SWToR is going to be a raid centric game, might I suggest you give that fail of a game your commitment.
Playing: GW2 Waiting on: TESO Next Flop: Planetside 2 Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
The whole thing with a lack of raiding. Finally, it's about bloody time. I absolutely hated the concept of being stuck on a treadmill always trying to get the next new piece of gear that's just slightly out of reach. It's an old outdated concept from the days of early MMO's when they needed to attract new players and keep them interested so the genre could grow. ArenaNet is throwing out whatever isn't fun in MMO's and for the majority of players raiding and a gear treadmill is anything but fun.
That has to be one of the most assinine states i've read on these forums.
If you had nothing to obtain.. gear, mounts, achievements or whatever... what would keep you playing. The concept of no end game raiding in an MMO is laughable. Running around all day crafting, doing 5mans or maybe even PvP would get old fast and there would be no longevity to the game.
Longevity for an MMO is based around a simple set of events..
Level Up
Gear Up
5 Mans to gear up for raiding
End Game Raiding
MMOs with out end game raiding is like a Relationship without sex.. It gets old fast.
I would say that MMOs WITH raiding are more like a relationship with BAD sex.....the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over......
Yes, that gets old FAST.
Ironic...the thread is about "staying power." Too funny. I like a little variety with my staying power, thank you very much.
The nice thing about this thread is that it proves what I was always saying: The hardcore raiding demographic is tiny compared to every other demographic. You could cater to every other demographic, completely leave them out, and still end up with a game that's a massive success, simply becasue the numbers are so very, very small. Even here on MMORPG.com, which one might consider to be a more hardcore source, at a niche location, with a limited amount of voters, I'd expect the numbers to even out. But no! Even here the numbers paint the hardcore raiders as a tiny minority.
What this absolutely proves is that most people are too busy to care about end game raiding. They have a couple of hours a day to spend on a game, if that. I have a friend in University who's only able to play for about 4-8 hours a week, either in big chunks or split up into little ones. With a game all he wants is a game that will last, that has enough content, and perhaps one that he can play. He has no visions about squandering his valuable time with 'end game,' and making that a second, virtual job when he has real work to do. What this says is that the hardcore minority just need to find better ways to manage their time.
If you think a poll on forums such as these, whose community is comprised almost entirely of a miniscule, passionate subset of gamers, is in any way representative of the entire gaming population, you are delusional. Even within the subset of gamers who bother to visit or actually post on forums, the mindset of posters at mmorpg.com specifically tends to be very different than other gaming forums.
There's a reason data derrived from surveys that do not use random sampling are not considered valid. Whole branches of study are dedicated to qualitative and quantitative analysis. Polls on forums such as these have their place, but this particular one certainly cannot provide any valid conclusions about the attitudes of the "majority" of MMO gamers.
Edit: eliminated the uber "get a life outside of MMOs people!" rant to reduce the size of the giant quotation box
Lack of end game? I'd say the best end game to this point... What do you think epic dynamic events are for? Why do you think Anet will keep on adding dynamic events post launch? Next to this we will also be able to do adventure mode 5 man instances, WvWvW pvp and structured pvp. Not to forget GW2 will feature and epic story which has a high replayability value.
(Playing devil's advocate here)
Public events do not require the organization or strategy that instanced endgame often requires. In my experience most public grouping is nothing short of a cluster.... (bunch of players running around and flashy lights everywhere...nobody really making a difference)
My opinion is that as replayable as GW2 might be, many players who have invested so much time in their character arne't going to want to 'start over' again. They want to develop and progress their character beyond what a casual player might do. If there is no "progression raiding", how is a player going to progress his/her character. What about a player that doesn't PvP?
(Devil's advocate hat off)
Are you saying instances like for example IC in WoW required actually strategy? The epic event involving Tequatl the Sunstrider involved as much strategy as your basic boss encounter in instances.
Sorry, but I call BS here. If it required the same stragegy, then people will quit. All you need is one person who doesn't do his/her job, stands in the wrong place or hits the wrong mob and everybody wipes. World events with groups of "whoever is standing around" will never require the same strategy of an instanced, progression boss fight. Let's see how well a public group would do with Yogg Saron or Ragnaros.
Lol this is a joke.. Do you realize that 10+ man Raids actually make for more dumbed down content? Whenever you go over a certain amount of people, coordination goes down. I don't care what you say, it really does. Also, your guild is usually composed of your core "which can be about 1-10 players" that make up the good players and then you have to fill spots that can at least hit decent numbers while dodging mechanics. No thanks... I'd rather have a tight knit 5 man group without Holy Trinity combat that takes true skill and coordination. You can have your raids.
The whole thing with a lack of raiding. Finally, it's about bloody time. I absolutely hated the concept of being stuck on a treadmill always trying to get the next new piece of gear that's just slightly out of reach. It's an old outdated concept from the days of early MMO's when they needed to attract new players and keep them interested so the genre could grow. ArenaNet is throwing out whatever isn't fun in MMO's and for the majority of players raiding and a gear treadmill is anything but fun.
That has to be one of the most assinine states i've read on these forums.
If you had nothing to obtain.. gear, mounts, achievements or whatever... what would keep you playing. The concept of no end game raiding in an MMO is laughable. Running around all day crafting, doing 5mans or maybe even PvP would get old fast and there would be no longevity to the game.
Longevity for an MMO is based around a simple set of events..
Level Up
Gear Up
5 Mans to gear up for raiding
End Game Raiding
MMOs with out end game raiding is like a Relationship without sex.. It gets old fast.
I would say that MMOs WITH raiding are more like a relationship with BAD sex.....the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over......
Yes, that gets old FAST.
Ironic...the thread is about "staying power." Too funny. I like a little variety with my staying power, thank you very much.
That is an excellent metaphor, and I have to say I agree.
On topic: Those who are arguing the point that endgame can only contain raiding have obviously never played anything outside of WoW. DAoC's endgame was extremely pvp centric with other activities, such as raiding (which is very different than WoW raiding).
The biggest selling point for GW2 is probably that it WON'T have a raiding system. While raiding can be fun and exciting, the problem with it that it also becomes a great divider of populations, and sweeping changes are made to the game because a smallish select few have found game mechanic exploits (look at the numerous class changes blizzard makes due to 25 man Heroic Raiding).
Raiding is but one of many types of endgame. PvP, small group activities, crafting (as long as it's robust), economics, various types of collecting all make up alternative types of endgame as well.
Apparently you've never heard of Alternate Advancement from games like EQ/EQ2, and soon to have Rift. Also in FFXI, there is a system of Merits that you can earn once at the cap, and every 10,000XP you earn grants you 1 merit, and you then use those merits to permanantly upgrade your base stats.
Endgame doesn't have to be 'only' about gear progression and raiding...
Have you realized that EQ/EQ2 and FFXI have a very low population today?
RIFT have a raid/gear progression that is one of the main reasons that people are still playing the game .
You all ,realy think that will be playing GW2 7months after the launch ?
I am sure that GW2 will be an amazing game, one of the best ones made so far, and will be a turn over in the MMO's Industry.
But the lack of a proper end game will make it shorter.
There are other ways to make end game, yes there is ,we have seen some ideias in other MMO's but they worked, NO, they can work if well implemented, maybe.
But one thing is for sure, Raiding is the easy one for the devolepers, they spend the same amount of time as a dungeon, but people will be playing that "dungeon" for 1-3 months instead of a few hours.And is totaly opcional, same players love it, some ignore . But to make a game sucessufull Developers should think about all of them.
Have you realized that EQ/EQ2 and FFXI have a very low population today?
RIFT have a raid/gear progression that is one of the main reasons that people are still playing the game .
You all ,realy think that will be playing GW2 7months after the launch ?
I am sure that GW2 will be an amazing game, one of the best ones made so far, and will be a turn over in the MMO's Industry.
But the lack of a proper end game will make it shorter.
There are other ways to make end game, yes there is ,we have seen some ideias in other MMO's but they worked, NO, they can work if well implemented, maybe.
But one thing is for sure, Raiding is the easy one for the devolepers, they spend the same amount of time as a dungeon, but people will be playing that "dungeon" for 1-3 months instead of a few hours.And is totaly opcional, same players love it, some ignore . But to make a game sucessufull Developers should think about all of them.
The main reason I heard of people quitting Rifts was the raid thing, while it keeps some players playing longer it makes others quit.
It is great that there are many games for raiders but it is not so great that the selection are limited for anyone who doesn't like it.
The devs should not think about all people when they make a MMO, that is rubbish. They should think of a certain player group and make the best possible game for them instead of just making a game that is so so for everyone.
You like raiding? Play TOR. If you don't you can play GW2 or WoDO instead.
Raiders will just have to accept that not all games are aimed for them just like anyone else.
And assuming that people will only play the kind of games you like for a long time is stupid, Eve have no raids and many people have played it for many years, some for 8.
Comments
AMEN!
Waiting for Guild Wars 2, and maybe SWTOR until that time...
Just to answer the topic. Look at DCUO, it has endgame, where is it now? Look at Rift, without rifts where would it be? The reason WoW has staying power is because it has a strong community, it has nothing to do with raids or traditional "endgame".
This is not a game.
Well, i all comes down to content offered.. See end game is just that ''End game'', if the turn out alot of dynamic events, then people will start to complain that they have experience it or seen it before.. The community has some part to play in the ''End Game experiece'', the why i've experienced it is that, when most person are leveling they could careless less what another player was doing, when you reach the end is a total different feeling. If ArenaNet is smart (which i don't doubt) they will leave some of the more cooler dynamic events for end game stuff..
The game ends when you stop playing. Just like Guild Wars 1 theres always something to shoot for. If you somehow gdid all the content in GW1, it would probably have taken years. I've been playing since launch and havent done even 50% of its content.
2 bosses maybe hard , or atleast were, but ragnaros for 1 fact is recycled trash and even the WOW firelands trailer on this dam SITE says PUG FRIENDLY so yes, you can pug ragnaros. The who dam fight is intented to be killed by pugs. thats what has become of raiding. And the only thing people do in raiding games now is, stay in the main city come online kill some bosses for the 100th time. or do some arena matched for your points. that is not called fun.
I agree with the above..... The minute someone says end game we know a couple of things ... The game has no general longevity and a lazy design concept has been applied.
MMOs should be all about Community / Longevity and fun..... Insta win and Endgame do not fit in my opinion. With some gameplay thrown in for good measure (most important).
________________________________________________________
Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
True.. True, i have friend who log on in wow just to see how eveyone is and if they feel like raiding they jump right in raid. and they have been doing that for years.. So yea the community has alot to do with the ''endgame'' experience. Eventually all content that is being released will get old faster and faster.. Take note your playing a game which hasn't fundamentally change in years. WoW has become such game (not knocking it), where people return for xpac's then in one month or less leave, becuase the game is fundamentally the same just a few new experience here and there.. Looking a GW2 i can say some people will just log on becuase the Enviroment (espically the main cities), strike them as cool.
I just dont know how to call posts OPs, arrogance ? ignorance ? stupidity ? or all topgether ? Just becouse game doesnt offers YOURs prefered endgame why should it mean it doesnt have any ? srsly ... I have raided with so many keyboard turning clickers that calling raiding hard or hardcore comes to me as serious joke.
To ppl like OP only end game that exists is raiding, well to me to thats partialy true too - moment i find that only left progression for me is to go raid = end game aka cancel subscription ... :P
For raiders there is no end game and they will proly leave soon, but they wont be missed at least by me.
WoW and strong community in the same sentence??
You high?
If anything WoW has no community at all.
I actually feel really bad for you if all you know is WoW community
"I am not a robot. I am a unicorn."
I completely agree with this.
In GW2, the entire game is viable content for a level 80. You won't be playing one game to level 80, then switching to playing in a completely different manner once you hit the cap. As a level 80, you will have access to all the Dynamic Event Chains in the world. With World vs. World vs. World, because of the way it's designed, will likely have appeal even to players who, in the past, weren't big fans of PVP. GW2 offers players more viable content once they reach the level cap than any other MMO I've ever seen or heard of.
A small percent of the MMO gaming audience may not be able to adapt to a game with out end game raids and endless end game gear grinds, but that's ok, because almost every other major MMO offers that.
Remember, being Buy to Play, rather than subscription based, it will be very easy to play GW2 and maintain a subscription based MMO as well, for those that care to do so. People can do their weekend end game raids in other games and come to GW2 for the game play. I have a feeling that a number of people that do so will find themselves wanting to play GW2, more than their end game treadmill titles, once they start to adjust to the game experience that GW2 will offer.
Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
Like many here said, its the journey not the destination that should be enjoyed. Although, when I get to the destination you will find me pvping like crazy
I will be travelling the world, encountering new things for many months. Staying power is not one of the things I am remotely worried about. I am more concerned about how it will consume many hours of my life which I should be spending on other things such as work
Your whole poll is flawed because there is endgame.
The nice thing about this thread is that it proves what I was always saying: The hardcore raiding demographic is tiny compared to every other demographic. You could cater to every other demographic, completely leave them out, and still end up with a game that's a massive success, simply becasue the numbers are so very, very small. Even here on MMORPG.com, which one might consider to be a more hardcore source, at a niche location, with a limited amount of voters, I'd expect the numbers to even out. But no! Even here the numbers paint the hardcore raiders as a tiny minority.
What this absolutely proves is that most people are too busy to care about end game raiding. They have a couple of hours a day to spend on a game, if that. I have a friend in University who's only able to play for about 4-8 hours a week, either in big chunks or split up into little ones. With a game all he wants is a game that will last, that has enough content, and perhaps one that he can play. He has no visions about squandering his valuable time with 'end game,' and making that a second, virtual job when he has real work to do. What this says is that the hardcore minority just need to find better ways to manage their time.
Spending most of your time, for years, raiding. Is that a life well spent? Is it? I don't think it is. Is having actual fun in short bursts with actual friends more fulfilling? I think it is. I play Champions Online in short bursts but I never go in alone. I wait for one of my friends to log on and I head in with them, it satisfies me more that way. We can goof off, we can do silly little roleplays, we can try to break the game, we can sit on things and take silly screenshots, and we can play the content.
If the hardcore minority weren't in such a gorram rush to hit the level cap they'd find the game would last them longer.
My advice?
Examine how you play MMORPGs.
Get some friends outside of the game.
Manage your time in the game better, limit yourself.
Find other activities and hobbies to console yourself with.
If you really want to work but you're unemployed, try volunteer/charity work.
I just think that some people do nothing by sit in front of an MMORPG for 24 hours a day. I only post rarely here because I spend my time carefully, I have other things to do, and so should everyone. There's more to life than a bloody game. If your brain is so hacked that you can't see that then you need to reevalute what you know, you need to do a bit of self discovery or rediscovery, and perhaps a little reinvention. I'm not saying 'get out more' but I am saying 'diversify!'
If the hardcore minority did that, then we wouldn't even need these threads. And really, when I say 'hardcore' I don't really mean 'hardcore' because they're as casual as my friends and I. No, I mean people with too much time on their hands. See, these 'hardcore' types wouldn't last two seconds in a game like Mortal Online, this is why they whine about how casual games should have repetitive, long-winded content that takes 3-5 hours to complete with 'l33t gear with ph4t numbers' at the end of it, just so that they can feel that their timesink was a worthy one, so that they can be better than other casual people.
It's ridiculous.
Frankly, for the sake of the hardcore minority, i'm glad that ArenaNet aren't catering to them. Blizzard did horrible things with WoW to get people hooked on it like crack addicts. But really, please, read a book. Or something. Theatre! Have you ever been to a live theatrical performance? The experience is sublime. Do stuff! If you didn't spend 110 hours (or more!) a week playing the same game, you wouldn't feel the need for long-winded, repetitive content that lasts that long.
I can't help but be preachy but really... there is more to life. I hope that what's considered 'endgame' by the OP never, ever curses Guild Wars 2. Play the game slowly, savour it, enjoy it, make the moments sublime, have fun, don't rush, and don't try to complete every damned bit of content with one character. If you do that the you don't even need 'endgame.' What gets me about all this is that the desire for 'endgame' is a deficiency of understanding and a lack of the willingness to actually do things on the part of the hardcore. But I promise you, diversifying is worth it.
This reality doesn't have everything that I want of it, either, but what's there is enjoyable. Sample it as you would sample the game.
i for one dont care much about raiding... small party instances, pvp, more pvp, and some more pvp, and a few events here n there will do it for me
SAYS WHO?????????? YOU!!!!! Do some freaking research Sir! The raiding crowd is the smallest playerbase in any given game. It stands to wonder that a game like Rift and/or WoW which are clearly a endgame raid centric game with raiding as the ONLY source of progression post level cap and less then 10% of the playerbase even bothers to see that content.
Its damn high time that a developer sees this idiotic and assanine source of playstyle and nix it in the bud, leaving all their resources open to developing small and solo style gameplay elements, in other words developing content for the vast majority of gamers.
Might I suggest if you dont like it dont buy it or dont play it, the rest of us will enjoy the **** out of the Anet development process intended to cater to the other 90% of the playerbase, as it should be. I hear SWToR is going to be a raid centric game, might I suggest you give that fail of a game your commitment.
Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online
Playing: GW2
Waiting on: TESO
Next Flop: Planetside 2
Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
I would say that MMOs WITH raiding are more like a relationship with BAD sex.....the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over......
Yes, that gets old FAST.
Ironic...the thread is about "staying power." Too funny. I like a little variety with my staying power, thank you very much.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Arenanet is all about the endgame pvp. So no, raiding will not be missed a bit.
If the action and attention to detail measures up to the high standards in GW1 people will become completely absorbed in the clan based pvp.
If you think a poll on forums such as these, whose community is comprised almost entirely of a miniscule, passionate subset of gamers, is in any way representative of the entire gaming population, you are delusional. Even within the subset of gamers who bother to visit or actually post on forums, the mindset of posters at mmorpg.com specifically tends to be very different than other gaming forums.
There's a reason data derrived from surveys that do not use random sampling are not considered valid. Whole branches of study are dedicated to qualitative and quantitative analysis. Polls on forums such as these have their place, but this particular one certainly cannot provide any valid conclusions about the attitudes of the "majority" of MMO gamers.
Edit: eliminated the uber "get a life outside of MMOs people!" rant to reduce the size of the giant quotation box
Lol this is a joke.. Do you realize that 10+ man Raids actually make for more dumbed down content? Whenever you go over a certain amount of people, coordination goes down. I don't care what you say, it really does. Also, your guild is usually composed of your core "which can be about 1-10 players" that make up the good players and then you have to fill spots that can at least hit decent numbers while dodging mechanics. No thanks... I'd rather have a tight knit 5 man group without Holy Trinity combat that takes true skill and coordination. You can have your raids.
That is an excellent metaphor, and I have to say I agree.
On topic: Those who are arguing the point that endgame can only contain raiding have obviously never played anything outside of WoW. DAoC's endgame was extremely pvp centric with other activities, such as raiding (which is very different than WoW raiding).
The biggest selling point for GW2 is probably that it WON'T have a raiding system. While raiding can be fun and exciting, the problem with it that it also becomes a great divider of populations, and sweeping changes are made to the game because a smallish select few have found game mechanic exploits (look at the numerous class changes blizzard makes due to 25 man Heroic Raiding).
Raiding is but one of many types of endgame. PvP, small group activities, crafting (as long as it's robust), economics, various types of collecting all make up alternative types of endgame as well.
Have you realized that EQ/EQ2 and FFXI have a very low population today?
RIFT have a raid/gear progression that is one of the main reasons that people are still playing the game .
You all ,realy think that will be playing GW2 7months after the launch ?
I am sure that GW2 will be an amazing game, one of the best ones made so far, and will be a turn over in the MMO's Industry.
But the lack of a proper end game will make it shorter.
There are other ways to make end game, yes there is ,we have seen some ideias in other MMO's but they worked, NO, they can work if well implemented, maybe.
But one thing is for sure, Raiding is the easy one for the devolepers, they spend the same amount of time as a dungeon, but people will be playing that "dungeon" for 1-3 months instead of a few hours.And is totaly opcional, same players love it, some ignore . But to make a game sucessufull Developers should think about all of them.
The main reason I heard of people quitting Rifts was the raid thing, while it keeps some players playing longer it makes others quit.
It is great that there are many games for raiders but it is not so great that the selection are limited for anyone who doesn't like it.
The devs should not think about all people when they make a MMO, that is rubbish. They should think of a certain player group and make the best possible game for them instead of just making a game that is so so for everyone.
You like raiding? Play TOR. If you don't you can play GW2 or WoDO instead.
Raiders will just have to accept that not all games are aimed for them just like anyone else.
And assuming that people will only play the kind of games you like for a long time is stupid, Eve have no raids and many people have played it for many years, some for 8.