EVE probably has the best mix of sandbox and themepark elements in the current MMO market:
In EVE, 95% of game items are created by the player crafters.
Because equipment is mostly destroyed on death (some of it is looted), the player market is extremely active.
Crafting can be done by virtually anyone, so the market is very competitive and there's virtually no inflation of prices.
Yet there are quests (missions) in the game, which provide a relatively quick and easy way for players to earn cash.
There are also NPC's that drop "rare" items which are highly sought after.
There are "dungeons" and NPC invasions in the common world to fight off.
Players can build structures at pre-defined locations throughout the game world, and there are literally thousands of those locations.
EVE is also evolving. There are now human player avatars ingame, and soon you will be able to walk around in space stations and meet up with other players in social environments.
Imho, EVE is an excellent example of a successful sandbox/themepark hybrid.
Agree, EVE is full blooded sandbox and yet it does have some "themepark" elements, such as NPC-run factions (I heard they'll introduce faction warfare soon which is cool) and simple quests when you don't feel like bothering with guild complexities.
I really don't think that a hybrid would work. The play styles are just far to different. How do you mix instant gratification with the slower sandbox style of working for reward? I said it in the last thread where this subject came up and I will stand by it. The masses that developers are looking for do not want to create..they want to experience. Sandbox is all about creation.
I don't believe that FFA PvP or harsh death penalties are necessary for a sandbox game. For some reason over the years the two have become synonymous with sandbox. There is simply no reason for it. Think of what a sandbox is and what you do in one..you create, you build, you use your imagination. If an actual sandbox was a miserable as most FFA PvP games are no kid would ever get in one.
creating good "themepark" content is not necessarily = instant gratification.
a game could easily have basic PvE like well-written quests, mob hunting, some dungeons, intricate crafting and gathering, AND "sandbox" features empire building, housing, socializing, a thriving player economy, etc.
think about it; why couldn't it work? I think people are so stuck in the false dichotomy between "themepark" and "sandbox" that they're forgetting that all game genres evolve.
we won't be stuck with the dominant EQ/WoW formula for ever.
I somewhat agree with the FFA PvP thing though.
it's an essential part of the freedom philosophy behind most "sandbox" game design - take it away and the games become a lot more stale and boring.
sadly, it still scares away a lot of players, and that's partly because the recent games that feature FFA PvP (DF and MO) have failed to support any other playstyle than RPKing.
my ideal game would use an EVE-like security system, where it's fully possible to play it safe, but if you want the good stuff you'll have to take risks.
I really don't think that a hybrid would work. The play styles are just far to different. How do you mix instant gratification with the slower sandbox style of working for reward? I said it in the last thread where this subject came up and I will stand by it. The masses that developers are looking for do not want to create..they want to experience. Sandbox is all about creation.
I don't believe that FFA PvP or harsh death penalties are necessary for a sandbox game. For some reason over the years the two have become synonymous with sandbox. There is simply no reason for it. Think of what a sandbox is and what you do in one..you create, you build, you use your imagination. If an actual sandbox was a miserable as most FFA PvP games are no kid would ever get in one.
creating good "themepark" content is not necessarily = instant gratification.
a game could easily have basic PvE like well-written quests, mob hunting, some dungeons, intricate crafting and gathering, AND "sandbox" features empire building, housing, socializing, a thriving player economy, etc.
think about it; why couldn't it work? I think people are so stuck in the false dichotomy between "themepark" and "sandbox" that they're forgetting that all game genres evolve.
we won't be stuck with the dominant EQ/WoW formula for ever.
I somewhat agree with the FFA PvP thing though.
it's an essential part of the freedom philosophy behind most "sandbox" game design - take it away and the games become a lot more stale and boring.
sadly, it still scares away a lot of players, and that's partly because the recent games that feature FFA PvP (DF and MO) have failed to support any other playstyle than RPKing.
my ideal game would use an EVE-like security system, where it's fully possible to play it safe, but if you want the good stuff you'll have to take risks.
Well FFA PvP is not bad in itself... But when it's coupled with some other mechanics it brings about a complete mess. My favorite bad example is Darkfall. FFA PvP + full loot + exteremely steep power curve = hell on earth for newbs and bored pointless sadism for old timers...
I'd play a FFA open world PvP game in a jiffy if it had relatively reasonable power curve (a new player could at least theoretically overcome a fully geared/leveled one) and looting was limited in some way. FFA PvP is ok imo, but so far no one managed to implement it correctly (i find even EVE's insuranca system too fidgety for me to really enjoy the game.)
That's why I am looking forward to ArcheAge, first AAA (as far I know) game to not be afraid combining sandbox and themepark. I am sick and tired of all indie devs shunning themepark features from their games, resulting in yet another mortal online.
creating good "themepark" content is not necessarily = instant gratification.
No not necessarily, but it is what people enjoy. Games like WoW and Rift prove this. I am not bashing it however, it is simply what people have shown they like. Make it to hard or to long to get the good loot or the levels and people will walk away.
A game could easily have basic PvE like well-written quests, mob hunting, some dungeons, intricate crafting and gathering, AND "sandbox" features empire building, housing, socializing, a thriving player economy, etc.
I would put intricate crafting and gathering in with the sandbox features. If there was a huge cry out for the sandbox features a developer would have put them in by now. The problem is the masses just do not want it. They want WoW and games that play similar to WoW. This industry has been stagnant in the innovation department for years now and yet they make tons of money. The next big and hyped MMO is TOR and their biggest innovation is VO acting. People want and will pay for themeparks just as they are. There is no huge cry for a sandbox mmo or a hybrid any where but on this forum.
think about it; why couldn't it work? I think people are so stuck in the false dichotomy between "themepark" and "sandbox" that they're forgetting that all game genres evolve.
we won't be stuck with the dominant EQ/WoW formula for ever.
This forumla has not made any huge steps forward in many years and once again I have to point to the fact these companies are making money. Things are not going to change anytime soon as long as the cash is rolling in.
I somewhat agree with the FFA PvP thing though.
it's an essential part of the freedom philosophy behind most "sandbox" game design - take it away and the games become a lot more stale and boring.
I really don't think so. FFA PvP only cuts deep in to your subscription base. Because of it you lose the one thing every sandbox or themepark game needs...people.
sadly, it still scares away a lot of players, and that's partly because the recent games that feature FFA PvP (DF and MO) have failed to support any other playstyle than RPKing.
my ideal game would use an EVE-like security system, where it's fully possible to play it safe, but if you want the good stuff you'll have to take risks.
EvE is a great example of how far a sandbox MMO is going to go these days. It has ..what..around 350,000 players give or take? If the masses wanted what EVE has to offer it wouldn't be WoW with the 11 million players. A triple A company shelling out 100 mil on development of an MMO is not going to be pleased with 350k subs. What we have now is what we are going to see until something changes with the people playing MMO's. Until people actually want more than a reskinned WoW this is it.
It sucks but I can not see anything changing in the near future because people do not want it to change. Most like it the way it is.
Disagree. SWG pre NGE/CU was my all-time favorite. Adding themepark to that sandbox ruined it for me.
The only way I could see themeparks successfully added to sandbox is with training missions. And even after completion the player would get a certificate or ribbon, etc. in their profile that states 'player X completed training A'. Other players would then see this player knows how to perform a certain function and other players could team up with them, promote them or add them to their faction, etc.
So there wouldn't be any gear, money, instant promotion, stat increase, etc. for completion of the training mission. The net result would be purely skill/experience based for the physical human player and shown on their profile.
WoW quests are static and they do not impact the shared world. GW2 quests are dynamic and do impact the shared world in a very real manner.
No they're not. If it's controlled by the server or a dev it won't be dynamic, it might give the appearance of being dynamic to the untrained eye but it won't really be.
A staple of the "ultimate sandbox" is realistic mob ecology where, for example, orcs would breed and ultimately start attacking player-run settlements. This is not very far from what DEs are all about, especially the centaur invasion dynamic event chain which has been well described and analyzed elsewhere.
So instead of 10 orc teenagers meandering around in the starting area, there will be 20 in 1 hour if they aren't slaughtered regularly. If it's server controlled it won't be dynamic, only human players can be dynamic.
One of the defining features od sandbox is emergent behaviour from the environment. GW2 DEs exhibit a degree of emergent behavior becaue they a) happen regardless of whether players are there or not and b) they can interact with each other creating situations which aren't directly dev-created. In that sense DE's are pretty much as far as you can get from WoW questing without actually completely abandoning dev-created content altogether.
Elder Scrolls Oblivion, the pinnacle of computer controlled NPC behavior, is still pretty lame to the trained eye. Again only human players are capable of being dynamic, if given the proper tools; if given the improper tools the only thing human players will do is grind and gank which is about as dynamic as what a computer server can do.
EvE is a great example of how far a sandbox MMO is going to go these days. It has ..what..around 350,000 players give or take? If the masses wanted what EVE has to offer it wouldn't be WoW with the 11 million players. A triple A company shelling out 100 mil on development of an MMO is not going to be pleased with 350k subs. What we have now is what we are going to see until something changes with the people playing MMO's. Until people actually want more than a reskinned WoW this is it. It sucks but I can not see anything changing in the near future because people do not want it to change. Most like it the way it is.
I think WoW like success for a fantasy based sandbox is 1 -1.5m subs, it will take a lot of cash to build the AAA game that gets that though.
WoW quests are static and they do not impact the shared world. GW2 quests are dynamic and do impact the shared world in a very real manner.
No they're not. If it's controlled by the server or a dev it won't be dynamic, it might give the appearance of being dynamic to the untrained eye but it won't really be.
Incorrect, they are more dynamic than static quests, ie the algorithms used to code the quests are more sophisticated and have more variables and triggers/events. Thats a good thing, not a bad thing. Dynamic is not a yes/no state.
A staple of the "ultimate sandbox" is realistic mob ecology where, for example, orcs would breed and ultimately start attacking player-run settlements. This is not very far from what DEs are all about, especially the centaur invasion dynamic event chain which has been well described and analyzed elsewhere.
So instead of 10 orc teenagers meandering around in the starting area, there will be 20 in 1 hour if they aren't slaughtered regularly. If it's server controlled it won't be dynamic, only human players can be dynamic.
Again as above. If you are being simplistic then yes humans are dynamic, and compared to humans algorithms are not. but we are not comparing humans to games, we are comparing games to games, DE are more dynamic than static quests obviously.
One of the defining features od sandbox is emergent behaviour from the environment. GW2 DEs exhibit a degree of emergent behavior becaue they a) happen regardless of whether players are there or not and b) they can interact with each other creating situations which aren't directly dev-created. In that sense DE's are pretty much as far as you can get from WoW questing without actually completely abandoning dev-created content altogether.
Elder Scrolls Oblivion, the pinnacle of computer controlled NPC behavior, is still pretty lame to the trained eye. Again only human players are capable of being dynamic, if given the proper tools; if given the improper tools the only thing human players will do is grind and gank which is about as dynamic as what a computer server can do.
Again as above. It is ironic that you (human) are trying to simplify the quantification of something being Dynamic to a simple 'if its not human then its not dynamic' is it not :P
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
They are competing play styles. You can't homogenize thempark and sandbox because they appeal to such different audiences. I couldn't see a scenario like that being any more successful than merging a summer blockbuster action film with a documentary.
I think WoW like success for a fantasy based sandbox is 1 -1.5m subs, it will take a lot of cash to build the AAA game that gets that though.
At this point in time I think you may be over estimating the amount of subs but I completely agree with you it will take a lot of money to make it happen.
I think WoW like success for a fantasy based sandbox is 1 -1.5m subs, it will take a lot of cash to build the AAA game that gets that though.
At this point in time I think you may be over estimating the amount of subs but I completely agree with you it will take a lot of money to make it happen.
Well, it's a guess, but I think a AAA fantasy sandbox will get a lot more than EVE
I think WoW like success for a fantasy based sandbox is 1 -1.5m subs, it will take a lot of cash to build the AAA game that gets that though.
At this point in time I think you may be over estimating the amount of subs but I completely agree with you it will take a lot of money to make it happen.
Well, it's a guess, but I think a AAA fantasy sandbox will get a lot more than EVE
Please no more fantasy, high fantasy or Tolkein crap, the dead horse has been flogged to dust. The truth is an AA titles will win more custom than a sandbox every time. Why? People prefer an AA themepark ride to a day in the allotment.
I think WoW like success for a fantasy based sandbox is 1 -1.5m subs, it will take a lot of cash to build the AAA game that gets that though.
At this point in time I think you may be over estimating the amount of subs but I completely agree with you it will take a lot of money to make it happen.
Well, it's a guess, but I think a AAA fantasy sandbox will get a lot more than EVE
Please no more fantasy, high fantasy or Tolkein crap, the dead horse has been flogged to dust. The truth is an AA titles will win more custom than a sandbox every time. Why? People prefer an AA themepark ride to a day in the allotment.
speak for yourself.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
I think WoW like success for a fantasy based sandbox is 1 -1.5m subs, it will take a lot of cash to build the AAA game that gets that though.
At this point in time I think you may be over estimating the amount of subs but I completely agree with you it will take a lot of money to make it happen.
Well, it's a guess, but I think a AAA fantasy sandbox will get a lot more than EVE
Please no more fantasy, high fantasy or Tolkein crap, the dead horse has been flogged to dust. The truth is an AA titles will win more custom than a sandbox every time. Why? People prefer an AA themepark ride to a day in the allotment.
I think WoW like success for a fantasy based sandbox is 1 -1.5m subs, it will take a lot of cash to build the AAA game that gets that though.
At this point in time I think you may be over estimating the amount of subs but I completely agree with you it will take a lot of money to make it happen.
Well, it's a guess, but I think a AAA fantasy sandbox will get a lot more than EVE
Please no more fantasy, high fantasy or Tolkein crap, the dead horse has been flogged to dust. The truth is an AA titles will win more custom than a sandbox every time. Why? People prefer an AA themepark ride to a day in the allotment.
Fantasy is what people want, I prefer SciFi myself.
No one is denying theme park simplicity is what most people prefer, but there is space and people to support more well made sandboxes than are currently out there
I do not understand how people can prefer it the other way. Imagine SWG, sandbox classes (no levels), you pick and chose your own skills AND you can change them as you see fit without ever being locked into a class (thus removing the need for alts). And then you throw in instances like the Corelean Corvette instance in SWG, put in more of thats what the masses want. But at the same time, have a huge world where exploration is essential and people can create cities, etc... The need for central city hubs existed in SWG because all planets were linked to the spaceports. So its not like cities will kill the central cities (like stormwind, ironforge, Orgrimmar) what kills that is the Auction houses. Same as in EQ2, its not the guilds that killed cities, its the AH. Remove auctions house as a system all together and you will see how fast people will create trading hubs.
SWG was the perfect example of what the ultimate game could be.
SOE was the perfect example of how a company could mismanage the perfect game.
Think about this for a second.... what would SWG be like if someone other the SOE was running it?
I think WoW like success for a fantasy based sandbox is 1 -1.5m subs, it will take a lot of cash to build the AAA game that gets that though.
At this point in time I think you may be over estimating the amount of subs but I completely agree with you it will take a lot of money to make it happen.
Well, it's a guess, but I think a AAA fantasy sandbox will get a lot more than EVE
Please no more fantasy, high fantasy or Tolkein crap, the dead horse has been flogged to dust. The truth is an AA titles will win more custom than a sandbox every time. Why? People prefer an AA themepark ride to a day in the allotment.
Fantasy is what people want, I prefer SciFi myself. No one is denying theme park simplicity is what most people prefer, but there is space and people to support more well made sandboxes than are currently out there
I agree entirely, but the general elitist trend on this site of portraying everyone who enjoys an AA MMO as moronic is becoming ridiculous. There is a reason people like them, because they appeal to the mass populous, if you do not like them go take a long hard look in the mirror.
I think WoW like success for a fantasy based sandbox is 1 -1.5m subs, it will take a lot of cash to build the AAA game that gets that though.
At this point in time I think you may be over estimating the amount of subs but I completely agree with you it will take a lot of money to make it happen.
Well, it's a guess, but I think a AAA fantasy sandbox will get a lot more than EVE
Please no more fantasy, high fantasy or Tolkein crap, the dead horse has been flogged to dust. The truth is an AA titles will win more custom than a sandbox every time. Why? People prefer an AA themepark ride to a day in the allotment.
Fantasy is what people want, I prefer SciFi myself. No one is denying theme park simplicity is what most people prefer, but there is space and people to support more well made sandboxes than are currently out there
I agree entirely, but the general elitist trend on this site of portraying everyone who enjoys an AA MMO as moronic is becoming ridiculous. There is a reason people like them, because they appeal to the mass populous, if you do not like them go take a long hard look in the mirror.
I don't need to take a long hard look in a mirror, just because I am a fan of sandbox games and themeparks do not hold my interest.
You seem to believe theere is something wrong with holding a minority view.
Yes the majority prefer theme parks and game developers are happy to chase the cash by pandering to those tastes but that's no reason for me to question myself..
I think WoW like success for a fantasy based sandbox is 1 -1.5m subs, it will take a lot of cash to build the AAA game that gets that though.
At this point in time I think you may be over estimating the amount of subs but I completely agree with you it will take a lot of money to make it happen.
Well, it's a guess, but I think a AAA fantasy sandbox will get a lot more than EVE
Please no more fantasy, high fantasy or Tolkein crap, the dead horse has been flogged to dust. The truth is an AA titles will win more custom than a sandbox every time. Why? People prefer an AA themepark ride to a day in the allotment.
Fantasy is what people want, I prefer SciFi myself. No one is denying theme park simplicity is what most people prefer, but there is space and people to support more well made sandboxes than are currently out there
I agree entirely, but the general elitist trend on this site of portraying everyone who enjoys an AA MMO as moronic is becoming ridiculous. There is a reason people like them, because they appeal to the mass populous, if you do not like them go take a long hard look in the mirror.
I don't need to take a long hard look in a mirror, just because I am a fan of sandbox games and themeparks do not hold my interest.
You seem to believe theere is something wrong with holding a minority view.
Yes the majority prefer theme parks and game developers are happy to chase the cash by pandering to those tastes but that's no reason for me to question myself..
I am sorry, I don't. I only take issue with the militant few who argue for sandboxes, mainly because I do not get how someone can care so much for so little.
Agree with OP. When devs figure out that they can make an open world with that you can fill with content for both Themepark and Sandbox we might move forward. We can wait and see how ArchAge turns out.
Agree with OP. When devs figure out that they can make an open world with that you can fill with content for both Themepark and Sandbox we might move forward. We can wait and see how ArchAge turns out.
I think the genuine probelm is the misunderstanding of sandparks and themeboxes. The number of times I have heard that FallenEarth is a sandbox... ? How, it is far less sandboxy than WOW, it is a pure linear quest driven dullfest. People need to understand what they want before they moan. I would put money on 60% of the people on this site who clammer for a sandbox having no idea what they are asking for.
Agree with OP. When devs figure out that they can make an open world with that you can fill with content for both Themepark and Sandbox we might move forward. We can wait and see how ArchAge turns out.
I think the genuine probelm is the misunderstanding of sandparks and themeboxes. The number of times I have heard that FallenEarth is a sandbox... ? How, it is far less sandboxy than WOW, it is a pure linear quest driven dullfest. People need to understand what they want before they moan. I would put money on 60% of the people on this site who clammer for a sandbox having no idea what they are asking for.
Player driven economy with all items crafted by the players.
Death penalties (ie loss of gear) or item decay to conrol inflation and keep the economy primed.
The areas with the best resources fought over by player created guilds/ factions/ alliances
Player built and ideally designed structures.
You can have jobs/quests to earn cash but no "Phat L00t" drops
More things to do than just kill stuff and craft stuff.
I want a world where I can be Uncle Owen if i want and not forced into being Luke Skywalker every day
I don't need to take a long hard look in a mirror, just because I am a fan of sandbox games and themeparks do not hold my interest.
You seem to believe theere is something wrong with holding a minority view.
Yes the majority prefer theme parks and game developers are happy to chase the cash by pandering to those tastes but that's no reason for me to question myself..
I am sorry, I don't. I only take issue with the militant few who argue for sandboxes, mainly because I do not get how someone can care so much for so little.
Sandboxes can appear empty if you are used to themeparks, but when you get that its the player interactions that create the world in the Sandbox, and the dev created content is only the backdrop to that, and you find your place in that world then they are far fuller than any themepark can be.
Comments
Agree, EVE is full blooded sandbox and yet it does have some "themepark" elements, such as NPC-run factions (I heard they'll introduce faction warfare soon which is cool) and simple quests when you don't feel like bothering with guild complexities.
creating good "themepark" content is not necessarily = instant gratification.
a game could easily have basic PvE like well-written quests, mob hunting, some dungeons, intricate crafting and gathering, AND "sandbox" features empire building, housing, socializing, a thriving player economy, etc.
think about it; why couldn't it work? I think people are so stuck in the false dichotomy between "themepark" and "sandbox" that they're forgetting that all game genres evolve.
we won't be stuck with the dominant EQ/WoW formula for ever.
I somewhat agree with the FFA PvP thing though.
it's an essential part of the freedom philosophy behind most "sandbox" game design - take it away and the games become a lot more stale and boring.
sadly, it still scares away a lot of players, and that's partly because the recent games that feature FFA PvP (DF and MO) have failed to support any other playstyle than RPKing.
my ideal game would use an EVE-like security system, where it's fully possible to play it safe, but if you want the good stuff you'll have to take risks.
Well FFA PvP is not bad in itself... But when it's coupled with some other mechanics it brings about a complete mess. My favorite bad example is Darkfall. FFA PvP + full loot + exteremely steep power curve = hell on earth for newbs and bored pointless sadism for old timers...
I'd play a FFA open world PvP game in a jiffy if it had relatively reasonable power curve (a new player could at least theoretically overcome a fully geared/leveled one) and looting was limited in some way. FFA PvP is ok imo, but so far no one managed to implement it correctly (i find even EVE's insuranca system too fidgety for me to really enjoy the game.)
That's why I am looking forward to ArcheAge, first AAA (as far I know) game to not be afraid combining sandbox and themepark. I am sick and tired of all indie devs shunning themepark features from their games, resulting in yet another mortal online.
Disagree. SWG pre NGE/CU was my all-time favorite. Adding themepark to that sandbox ruined it for me.
The only way I could see themeparks successfully added to sandbox is with training missions. And even after completion the player would get a certificate or ribbon, etc. in their profile that states 'player X completed training A'. Other players would then see this player knows how to perform a certain function and other players could team up with them, promote them or add them to their faction, etc.
So there wouldn't be any gear, money, instant promotion, stat increase, etc. for completion of the training mission. The net result would be purely skill/experience based for the physical human player and shown on their profile.
Absolutely
I think WoW like success for a fantasy based sandbox is 1 -1.5m subs, it will take a lot of cash to build the AAA game that gets that though.rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
They are competing play styles. You can't homogenize thempark and sandbox because they appeal to such different audiences. I couldn't see a scenario like that being any more successful than merging a summer blockbuster action film with a documentary.
At this point in time I think you may be over estimating the amount of subs but I completely agree with you it will take a lot of money to make it happen.
At this point in time I think you may be over estimating the amount of subs but I completely agree with you it will take a lot of money to make it happen.
Well, it's a guess, but I think a AAA fantasy sandbox will get a lot more than EVEPlease no more fantasy, high fantasy or Tolkein crap, the dead horse has been flogged to dust. The truth is an AA titles will win more custom than a sandbox every time. Why? People prefer an AA themepark ride to a day in the allotment.
speak for yourself.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
I was, I wrote it.
At this point in time I think you may be over estimating the amount of subs but I completely agree with you it will take a lot of money to make it happen.
Well, it's a guess, but I think a AAA fantasy sandbox will get a lot more than EVEPlease no more fantasy, high fantasy or Tolkein crap, the dead horse has been flogged to dust. The truth is an AA titles will win more custom than a sandbox every time. Why? People prefer an AA themepark ride to a day in the allotment.
Fantasy is what people want, I prefer SciFi myself.No one is denying theme park simplicity is what most people prefer, but there is space and people to support more well made sandboxes than are currently out there
I totally agree that separating the two is bad.
I do not understand how people can prefer it the other way. Imagine SWG, sandbox classes (no levels), you pick and chose your own skills AND you can change them as you see fit without ever being locked into a class (thus removing the need for alts). And then you throw in instances like the Corelean Corvette instance in SWG, put in more of thats what the masses want. But at the same time, have a huge world where exploration is essential and people can create cities, etc... The need for central city hubs existed in SWG because all planets were linked to the spaceports. So its not like cities will kill the central cities (like stormwind, ironforge, Orgrimmar) what kills that is the Auction houses. Same as in EQ2, its not the guilds that killed cities, its the AH. Remove auctions house as a system all together and you will see how fast people will create trading hubs.
SWG was the perfect example of what the ultimate game could be.
SOE was the perfect example of how a company could mismanage the perfect game.
Think about this for a second.... what would SWG be like if someone other the SOE was running it?
Its sad but true, we had the perfect game.
I agree entirely, but the general elitist trend on this site of portraying everyone who enjoys an AA MMO as moronic is becoming ridiculous. There is a reason people like them, because they appeal to the mass populous, if you do not like them go take a long hard look in the mirror.
At this point in time I think you may be over estimating the amount of subs but I completely agree with you it will take a lot of money to make it happen.
Well, it's a guess, but I think a AAA fantasy sandbox will get a lot more than EVEPlease no more fantasy, high fantasy or Tolkein crap, the dead horse has been flogged to dust. The truth is an AA titles will win more custom than a sandbox every time. Why? People prefer an AA themepark ride to a day in the allotment.
Fantasy is what people want, I prefer SciFi myself. No one is denying theme park simplicity is what most people prefer, but there is space and people to support more well made sandboxes than are currently out thereI agree entirely, but the general elitist trend on this site of portraying everyone who enjoys an AA MMO as moronic is becoming ridiculous. There is a reason people like them, because they appeal to the mass populous, if you do not like them go take a long hard look in the mirror.
I don't need to take a long hard look in a mirror, just because I am a fan of sandbox games and themeparks do not hold my interest.
You seem to believe theere is something wrong with holding a minority view.
Yes the majority prefer theme parks and game developers are happy to chase the cash by pandering to those tastes but that's no reason for me to question myself..I am sorry, I don't. I only take issue with the militant few who argue for sandboxes, mainly because I do not get how someone can care so much for so little.
Agree with OP. When devs figure out that they can make an open world with that you can fill with content for both Themepark and Sandbox we might move forward. We can wait and see how ArchAge turns out.
My theme song.
I think the genuine probelm is the misunderstanding of sandparks and themeboxes. The number of times I have heard that FallenEarth is a sandbox... ? How, it is far less sandboxy than WOW, it is a pure linear quest driven dullfest. People need to understand what they want before they moan. I would put money on 60% of the people on this site who clammer for a sandbox having no idea what they are asking for.
Player driven economy with all items crafted by the players.
Death penalties (ie loss of gear) or item decay to conrol inflation and keep the economy primed.
The areas with the best resources fought over by player created guilds/ factions/ alliances
Player built and ideally designed structures.
You can have jobs/quests to earn cash but no "Phat L00t" drops
More things to do than just kill stuff and craft stuff.
I want a world where I can be Uncle Owen if i want and not forced into being Luke Skywalker every day
Sandboxes can appear empty if you are used to themeparks, but when you get that its the player interactions that create the world in the Sandbox, and the dev created content is only the backdrop to that, and you find your place in that world then they are far fuller than any themepark can be.