You are right! Oh, hold on, the UI is telling me I need to move out of this AE...and all my skills are macroed on 1 or 2 buttons, I need to hit 1 and sometimes 2...but usually 1 real quick!
Whew...I am back, now what were we talking about?
No people are not different, just the games are lazy and easier mode...Can't blame people, you play how you need to play. IF everything can be macroed onto one key, which some classes in Rift, and I am sure a lot other games it can be, people will do it. The UIs have added functions to make it easier, and the developers have made things easier.
So yes people have not changed, but I have seen nothing in a modern game that challenges a person to be better, or show the personal skill that people needed in old school EQ, when raiding, and dealing with situations. Its not like their wasn't a bunch of mediocre people playing back in old school EQ either...People are the same, but imo, people had to work harder to shine and be a top player. I have seen old school enchanters do things for 10-12 hours straight while raiding, that I still find amazing to this day (no, I did not play one, I would of pulled my hair out, and gone postal). I use that as an example, I have not seen someone needing to show that level of player excellence, since earlier EQ. Before all the tools and dumbing down.
So to sum it up, no people are not different, but people were challenged more, and people had to meet the challenge and get better to be a 'quality' player. I think meeting the challenge was harder then, before all the tools, and simplifications.
So technically, you are correct, but if a hardcore game came out, that didn't have all the macros, and the you are playing dumb ui functions and such...I would prefer a 'good' old school player, over a 'good' new school player. Thats me though.
PS, I thought people crying about "forced grouping" and "forced pvp" were really rather pathetic, but bemoaning "forced communties" in what are supposed to be multiplayer worlds... really? People will not be happy until other players are fully removed from mmos and replaced by half assed AI and a link to facebook.
I don't get it either. People want to play MMOs, but they want to do it little to none of the social interaction inherent to MMOs. They don't want to be dependent or interact with other players, and just want to be able to solo through everything on their own terms. Why the hell are they even playing an MMO then? They might as well just play an SPRPG.
Ironically, Diablo 3 will probably be the best "MMO" to date for the current generation of "MMOs", considering it's forced online play, RMAH, and complete solo-ability... it's really getting pathetic on the MMO scence with where things are going.
Is your wife your wife if she feels forced to be with you? No, just as a community is not a community if it's forced...
Communities cannot thrive in an environment that does not support them.
New MMOs lack incentive for players to interact positively with each other, and lack consequences for those who interact poorly with other players.
Just the same where in real life if there is little to no benefit to others working together, and little to no infrastructive of law and order to deter anti-social behavior (i.e. theft, murder, etc), then communities dissolve into social anarchy.
In other words, it's not forced community, it's encourage community and discouraged anti-social behavior. If you don't want to participate in an online community, don't play an MMO.
The difference between now and then is that back then when asshats reared there ignorant heads the community usually put them in check via blacklisting or scolding them until they either shaped up or moved on to another server to try being a Dbag there.
I remember in DAoC that when a level 50 showed up griefing level 20s trying to quest outside the realm gates. there would soon be a message on guild/alliance/region and he would literally get massacred until people couldn't find him anymore. Also many people would offer to hide in the vicinity for a while to protect their realm mates in case he came back. Even so, when a few equal levels showed up to fight our weaker countrymen, many would refrain from getting involved in a fair fight.
And with such people playing, I almost find it hard to call it griefing when people repeatedly attacked beginners at the gate. If you have a realm of players looking out for one another, bastards doesn't have to be griefers. If a douche gets hunted and killed before you start losing love for the game, he becomes part of the story in a better way. It teaches players animosity towards the enemy faction, gratefulness towards the own faction, and inspires people to protect the next generation.
If you are griefed repeatedly in the beginner zones to the point of it destrying the game for you, I think a person will be much more likely to be raised another bastard who starts hunting beginners as soon as he hits max level, and he won't feel passion for protecting his realm mates.
In the end I think that good players will generate good players, and bad players will generate bad players. I do think that the players were "better" before in general, but I don't know whether to blame years of griefing for the growing population of bastards... or if the game mechanics have changed in a way that produces them.
I'd say it's a combination of both IMO. However, I think it leans a bit more so towards game mechanics producing them. MMO's have become so simplified that any dbag can get to max level with relative ease...then they get bored and resort to entertaining themselves by showing how 1337 they are through repeatedly terrorizing those that can do little to defend themselves.
I have been griefed numerous times in numerous MMO's to date since EQ. But it didn't turn me into one of those dbags through enduring years of it. Just depends on the person's personality and morals more to me than what they themselves endure in games as to how they react in said game and future games they play.
Is your wife your wife if she feels forced to be with you? No, just as a community is not a community if it's forced...
Communities cannot thrive in an environment that does not support them.
New MMOs lack incentive for players to interact positively with each other, and lack consequences for those who interact poorly with other players.
Just the same where in real life if there is little to no benefit to others working together, and little to no infrastructive of law and order to deter anti-social behavior (i.e. theft, murder, etc), then communities dissolve into social anarchy.
In other words, it's not forced community, it's encourage community and discouraged anti-social behavior. If you don't want to participate in an online community, don't play an MMO.
Incentives are one thing, forced is something else. SWG had great community but it was never forced. There was plenty of solability in the game. There were plenty of AFk dancers in guild cantina's or public ones for those who were not social or feeling social at the time. Giving your players options, is the key. Forcing them down a path is bad no matter how you look at it.
As for that last part bollocks...
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
PS, I thought people crying about "forced grouping" and "forced pvp" were really rather pathetic, but bemoaning "forced communties" in what are supposed to be multiplayer worlds... really? People will not be happy until other players are fully removed from mmos and replaced by half assed AI and a link to facebook.
I don't get it either. People want to play MMOs, but they want to do it little to none of the social interaction inherent to MMOs. They don't want to be dependent or interact with other players, and just want to be able to solo through everything on their own terms. Why the hell are they even playing an MMO then? They might as well just play an SPRPG.
Ironically, Diablo 3 will probably be the best "MMO" to date for the current generation of "MMOs", considering it's forced online play, RMAH, and complete solo-ability... it's really getting pathetic on the MMO scence with where things are going.
Is your wife your wife if she feels forced to be with you? No, just as a community is not a community if it's forced...
So, under this logic my boss is not my boss because I feel forced to work for him- awesome! And taxes are not "my" taxes because I feel forced to pay them! woot
Is your wife your wife if she feels forced to be with you? No, just as a community is not a community if it's forced...
So, under this logic my boss is not my boss because I feel forced to work for him- awesome! And taxes are not "my" taxes because I feel forced to pay them! woot
Lath
No that would not be covered under that logic, a gaming community and a wife are two things that a person has a choice in. While you have a choice in where you work, you do not have a choice in who will be your boss at the place you chose. Taxes again you have no choice in that matter.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I started playing EQ1 back in 1999, and there were plenty of idiots back then, just mostly different kinds of idiots from what you see today.
Due to the non instanced world and the competition over rare spawns, you saw plenty of intentional KSing, ninja looting, training, griefing, camp swiping, etc. Due to hardly anything being no trade and the fact that money was very hard to acquire and it could be hard to come up with cash to just buy your spells, there were a huge amount of beggars. Due to difficult travel wizards and druids were constantly spammed to drop what they were doing to port someone somewhere. Clerics constantly bugged for rezzes. Buffing classes constantly bugged for SoW and other buffs. The list goes on.
One thing I did not see in EQ nearly as much as I see in modern games is random /ooc or /shout spam. Sure, it existed, but was largely confined to crowded low level zones like Lake of Ill Omen and the Oasis of Marr. You didn't really see crap like Chuck Norris jokes (Chuck Norris wasn't a meme back then I know, but whatever the equivalent would have been).
So in short, people still found plenty of ways to be an asshat, they just did it in different ways than you see today.
>>Why? Because the community was able to weed those players out because the game mechanics relying on community cooperation allowed them to effectively blackball trouble makers.<<
Exactly! Tight and closed communities forced on players. I will not play such games anymore, and developers want my money, so they create games where communities are NOT forced on players. And since there are more people like me than there are people like you, that's how it will be forever. Simple! Why can't you just accept it? Modern MMORPGS are not places to find great communities!
Um...MMORPG's were MEANT to be made for community. It is what seperated them from console gaming...where you must of come from considering your cluelessness to this fact. It really wasn't "forced" on the player. It was however far more encouraged than it is in any modern MMO. I could of soloed to cap in the days of EQ...it just would of taken MUCH longer is all.
Most players these days I feel came from a strictly console gaming background that were drawn in from the "WoW' era when Blizzard's mass media blitz on radio, t.v., etc peaked the curiousity and interest of people outside of the niche community of tabletop players. Most think that MMO's are suppose to be like that game (WoW), and do not want to recognize the mechanics and social aspects of these earlier games and what made them unique and a seperate genre from console games. Because...they didn't play them and grow with the genre in the first place. Why do you think most MMO's these days seem more like single player console games? And are simplified with instant gratification features? Seems to me because the companies know the majority are...dare I say from the console genre?
Don't get me wrong....I grew up with console games too (First system was the Atari 2600). But I started playing MMO's when they were in their infancy and playing them was done on dial-up connections. And know what made them different from console games. These days, that line of difference is severely blurred and almost completely gone.....sadly.
PS, I thought people crying about "forced grouping" and "forced pvp" were really rather pathetic, but bemoaning "forced communties" in what are supposed to be multiplayer worlds... really? People will not be happy until other players are fully removed from mmos and replaced by half assed AI and a link to facebook.
I don't get it either. People want to play MMOs, but they want to do it little to none of the social interaction inherent to MMOs. They don't want to be dependent or interact with other players, and just want to be able to solo through everything on their own terms. Why the hell are they even playing an MMO then? They might as well just play an SPRPG.
Ironically, Diablo 3 will probably be the best "MMO" to date for the current generation of "MMOs", considering it's forced online play, RMAH, and complete solo-ability... it's really getting pathetic on the MMO scence with where things are going.
Is your wife your wife if she feels forced to be with you? No, just as a community is not a community if it's forced...
lol wut?
Your wife is indeed your wife whether she feels forced to be with you or not and she will remain as such until she leaves and divorces you. What an incredibly poor analogy.
And yes, a community is a community regardless as to the circumstances that bring it together.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Is your wife your wife if she feels forced to be with you? No, just as a community is not a community if it's forced...
lol wut?
Your wife is indeed your wife whether she feels forced to be with you or not and she will remain as such until she leaves and divorces you. What an incredibly poor analogy.
And yes, a community is a community regardless as to the circumstances that bring it together.
I don't think it's a bad analogy, as a community isn't a real community if it's one that's forced to play that way. Just as a wife isn't a loving wife if she actually wants to leave you. You can call it what you want, a wife, a community in the end it's an illusion if it's not how those taking part actually want things to be. Good games do not force you down a path bad games do.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Is your wife your wife if she feels forced to be with you? No, just as a community is not a community if it's forced...
So, under this logic my boss is not my boss because I feel forced to work for him- awesome! And taxes are not "my" taxes because I feel forced to pay them! woot
Lath
No that would not be covered under that logic, a gaming community and a wife are two things that a person has a choice in. While you have a choice in where you work, you do not have a choice in who will be your boss at the place you chose. Taxes again you have no choice in that matter.
OK, i have a better one- A group is not a group if im forced into grouping!
I hear what you are trying to say- and I hope I did not come off as an a-hole but I think we are "forced" to do a lot of things in games by way of designers trying to make things a better experience. Of course, no one has to participate in many of the things developers put into games - community, grouping, etc. And im actually on the side of letting people play the way they like but like MMORPG's we are forced IRL to be in the community- to what extent is up to you.
In a way, this argument, and let me state again- i am for people playing games the way they want- but in a way people who play MMO's who dont want to be forced to group- talk to other people- at the same time want to take advantage of the auction house, the crafted items other things that having a community brings etc. Its like: people want all the things that make MMO's uniquely different than single player RPG's but dont want to be a part of that uniqueness.
OK, i have a better one- A group is not a group if im forced into grouping!
I hear what you are trying to say- and I hope I did not come off as an a-hole but I think we are "forced" to do a lot of things in games by way of designers trying to make things a better experience. Of course, no one has to participate in many of the things developers put into games - community, grouping, etc. And im actually on the side of letting people play the way they like but like MMORPG's we are forced IRL to be in the community- to what extent is up to you.
In a way, this argument, and let me state again- i am for people playing games the way they want- but in a way people who play MMO's who dont want to be forced to group- talk to other people- at the same time want to take advantage of the auction house, the crafted items other things that having a community brings etc. Its like: people want all the things that make MMO's uniquily different than single player RPG's but dont want to be a part of that uniqueness.
Mikey
A group is multiple people simply being together. That's not what a MMO community actually is..
I look at it like this..
There are two forms of community in an MMO. First you have the overall community, then you have what people refer to when they talk about community is missing in todays MMO(s).
The latter form is people coming together in a harmonious fashion. It's not about hey I need you to come help me run this dungeon, then we'll never speak again, simply because I can't do it otherwise. A true community works togther, they hang out together, they like each other, they support each other. This is only possible if those people want this, if they don't it's nothing but an illusion of community. Nothing really positive comes from that, just a whole lot of negative experiences. WOW as an example..
When people are forced to work together you end up with horror stories like you hear about WOW. When you let players do as they please true communities form, SWG as an example...
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I don't think it's a bad analogy, as a community isn't a real community if it's one that's forced to play that way. Just as a wife isn't a loving wife if she actually wants to leave you. You can call it what you want, a wife, a community in the end it's an illusion if it's not how those taking part actually want things to be. Good games do not force you down a path bad games do.
Sorry but it was a terrible analogy which is no doubt why you have changed it to "loving wife" which is a rather large change.
I can't understand why people seem unable to grasp the concept that traditonal mmorpgs were about world simulation and player interaction. Certain tasks involve working with other players. You are not forced to do that, sit in your e-house and talk to the walls on your own, no one would care, but people some how equating a game with social dynamics to "omg forced, he forced me to speak to that crafter!!!!!!" is nonsense.
The artifical worlds are meant to mirror the social and community aspects of the real world to a greater or lesser extent. If people want to go to the moon they have to work with other people. If people want to build a multinational corporation they have to work with other people.
Seriously there are countless types of games out there, one type has traditionally centred around massed player interaction and player driven worlds. And yet people have come in and complained about that very aspect... my word. I think I may start complaining about pvp and other players fucking up my game time in multiplayer first person shooter games. The fact that there are plenty of single player FPS on the market is by the by, I want a totally single player experience in my multiplayer shooter games.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Removing pointless tedium and endless grinding as well as poorly designed and implemented game mechanics is NOT "dumbing down" by any stretch of the imagination.
I HATE that term.
As someone who has been playing these games for about 12 years I personally believe that MMOs were a LOT simpler back then.
Back then I only really played UO and SWG for any extended period of time (before 2004) and there wasn't anything all too complex in either game - however SWG did have a lot of poorly designed clutter and tedium.
It's not that things are really all that different, now things are just presented a whole lot better and there is a lot more instruction and direction.
It isn't "dumbing down" to provide tutorials and a gradual learning curve.
Some things I will admit have greatly lowered the skill and intelligence requirements of this genre, however.
The real funny thing? Most of things were created by US the users, not the developers.
Things like GearScore and Deadly Boss Mods and Quest Helper and Recount were created by the community, not the developers.
Things like cross-server random group finders and more simplistic talent trees were put into these games because WE complained to no end about long queues and forced grouping and WE complained about useless/cluttered talent trees and WE complained about confusing statistics...
So maybe that is the real answer... maybe the OP is wrong and the truth is that this genre is EXACTLY where it is at today because we, the players, whined and begged and screamed for 6+ years to make it this way.
I can definitely sympathize with the folks who think this genre has gone in the wrong direction, and maybe they weren't the ones complaining about this stuff the whole time, maybe they were...
But at the same time we've left behind a LOT of the stupid, poorly designed, boring crap that used to define this genre and those who played in it.
I know I used to have more time and a lot more patience. If that made me "better" then I am today, then so be it.
"Old-schoolers" never stated they were better players.
However, there are alot of negatives that have come with the huge jump in potential semi-warm bodies to pay for MMO's. Most of it has been the absolute dumbing down of most games in general making them more like console games and meant to be played through once then put down till the next title comes along.
Additionally, communities felt more like communities. Bad comes with everything but that's not an excuse for you to claim it's relatively the same because it's not even close.
I'm referring to old schoolers thinking they were "better people" and the communities were not "better" they were actually extremely passive aggressive.
It is relatively the same... in fact I would say we only really traded off passive aggressive for aggressive. Now instead of someone trying to snipe you behind your back they just openly call you a noob. Worse? Not really.
dont know what games you were playing.... but people alway called others #@%# and ghey ect to their face ingame.
But i agree retards back then retards now,... Game wise most are pretty lame now.
this thread is silly its not the people who have changed its the games combined with the addition of many many more people.
If you dont understand how games have changed and been dumbed down to be sold and played by players of all skill levels then you should go grab an emulator and play some old school games.
Play any current console RPG / action / action rpg / strategy game, and then play any older game from the same genre in many cases from the same company and you will very quickly see how much more was expected from the player back in the old days and how little is expected of a player now adays.
Games used to be very hard, and all those who played were serious gamers who enjoyde the challenge. Old RPGs like Final fantasy 1/2/3 and a ton others expected the player to do a lot.
If you play FF1 you will quickly see how much more you are expected to do. There are no quest icons or trails to follow, your expected to go around the town speak to every NPC, gather information, string together bits of information and then come to the conclusion of where you must go and what you must do. There is no map, there is no log or journal, best case you may be told to head North or East but you were still left to explore and find everything. Ontop of these kinds of things you actualy can and will die in these games where as most recent rpgs I have played through I have never died in a long time, the other day I died playing chrono trigger about 10 mins into the game I cant remember any 2009+ game where I have ever died let a lone in the first 15 mins.
I'd suggest that players back in the "good" old days had more in common with each other. So a person might conclude that people were "better" back then. Back then, if you weren't a gamer, then you had no idea what an MMO/MUD was, and didn't care.
Nowadays folks of all walks of life can be found in a game. They may not have all the lines from Holy Grail memorized or read Dork Tower. Doesn't make them inferior.
I think players "Back then" had a more sense of honor and humility. Today everyone wants to be number 1 in everything, "Back then" people just wanted to be playing. If you wanted to test the waters, open a game with full loot open world pvp with sandbox feel (UO comes to mind). "Back then" You'd have entire Police guilds that would answer the call of anyone who had been "unjustly" slain in pvp. I missed the days when an entire guild would go on a head hunt for pkers, this was half the fun for most old MMOs, at least for me it was. Today, everyone would just be PKing everyone that moved, and there might be 1 guild that would police the areas.
I don't know if it's just the crowd at MMORPG.com or just older people in general who think that the "old days" of mmorpgs were the golden days. As someone who's played over the last 12 years I have not seen any noticeable difference in the quality of players.
Am I blind?
No, but I did take off the rose colored glasses. Back in EQ1 there were hardcore raiders, asshats, anti social jack wagons and so forth. Are there "more" today? Well sure and there are more players too. DAoC's pvp system was not perfect and had a nasty cheat that the "pro" guilds used, but never admitted to till much later and UO was terrible to new players. Were they bad games ... no, but they were not some bastion of awesome like some portray.
A lot of the rant posts I see are people who pretend to be "enlightened". You're not enlightened if you're still railing on ADD kids and having no open world pvp.... you just miss certain aspects of previous games and are trying to tie in changes in the genre to some overall hatred of some meaningless stereotype.
There's no great difference in people over the last 10-12 years. You're just noticing the bad ones more as you grow older.
/off my personal soapbox
I'm about to turn 31, and I started playing MMO's when I was 22. So it's not that I'm getting older and wiser that's making me see them, because I'm sure you meant that comment towards those who began as teenagers and are entering their 20's, else what's their excuse for believing the old community was better?
Anyways, the old community was better back then. My first game was DAoC.The majority of people were group oriented and sociable while in group. If you needed help, people didn't insult you or called you a noob. Instead, many people would drop everything they were doing, travel 20 min by horse to reach you and show you what to do. The only time I ran into asshats was when people were stealing the rare spawns that took days to respawn. You'd wait there for several hours, only to have some jerk steal the spawn when it appears. But that's a small handful of people, compared to the anti-social questers you see in post-WoW games and the adolescent behavior you see non-stop on trade and general chat channels.
In DAoC, people were proud of their realm and took care of their own. They nurtured the new players, taught them how to play their class, and showed them the ropes. Can't say the same about WoW and post-WoW players.
SWG was even more awesome than DAoC as far as community goes. Because the economy was player ran and players were interdependent upon each other, people were respectful, nice, and courteous to each other.
What's common between SWG and DAoC? They were both group centric sociable games. If you wanted to achieve anything in these two games, you relied upon other players. You needed them for groups to speed up the xp process, materials for crafting, and companionship for downtime. Just like in real life, when people are forced to rely upon others, we remember our manners and actually are nice to people and what do you know, you actually end up meeting some good people and making friends.
I'm not saying I haven't met similar people in WoW or post-WoW games, only that whereas once I'd generalize an entire community being great in DAoC and SWG, I'd generalize the entire community in WoW and post-WoW games to be immature and rude, with the exception being a small handful of guilds that are extremely small, but helpful and friendly.
The players haven't changed. Most new people just don't know what they want. Not yet at least. MMO's used to be about building worlds. An escape from reality in the purist sense. It wasn't about winning or losing. It was far bigger than levels, itemization, classes, and graphics. It was about creating stories that you couldn't just read, you could actually live them. That's the closest thing to a fantasy experience any of us can get, or ever will get. That was the original vision.
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by Grahor
>>I AM saying that many concepts in newer MMORPGs actively discourage community.<< They don't force it upon you. You still can be a member of a community, waste your time trying to play only with selected group instead of random set, etc. You just don't have to. I will not play a game that will force me to actually waste countless hours on fitting in a community. There are more people like me than people like you. Ergo, cater to us or be broke.
Ergo, modern MMO's are doomed to have poor communities. Case in point here.
I don't mean to sound Burkean, but when you're in the business of creating virtual worlds, the designers have an obligation to the give communities as much freedom as possible, and its impossible to be free when there is only room for one community in the designers world. The paradox being that a designer can't imagine all the possible communities that could exist.
But we can't spend our entire lives in the virtual world, there has to be design mechanics that allow any kind of community to be productive, otherwise everyone will collapse into one group. That was why UO failed, and so many other sandbox games. We can't get perfection, but we sure as hell can get closer to it than we have in the past.
I don't know if it's just the crowd at MMORPG.com or just older people in general who think that the "old days" of mmorpgs were the golden days. As someone who's played over the last 12 years I have not seen any noticeable difference in the quality of players.
Am I blind?
No, but I did take off the rose colored glasses. Back in EQ1 there were hardcore raiders, asshats, anti social jack wagons and so forth. Are there "more" today? Well sure and there are more players too. DAoC's pvp system was not perfect and had a nasty cheat that the "pro" guilds used, but never admitted to till much later and UO was terrible to new players. Were they bad games ... no, but they were not some bastion of awesome like some portray.
A lot of the rant posts I see are people who pretend to be "enlightened". You're not enlightened if you're still railing on ADD kids and having no open world pvp.... you just miss certain aspects of previous games and are trying to tie in changes in the genre to some overall hatred of some meaningless stereotype.
There's no great difference in people over the last 10-12 years. You're just noticing the bad ones more as you grow older.
/off my personal soapbox
sorry, but you made an error in your theory.
12 years ago - or lets rephrase that - 18 years ago you did not find 6 million kids playing games on the web.
when the whole "online gaming" thing started, it was about people who REALLY WANTED TO PLAY, have fun, and if possible win. if they lost there was a "gg" or maybe a small pun, but thats it.
now it's "uh mommy buy me wow, all the cool kids play it!" ... you see where i am getting there? :P
people definately changed.
and the more people you get, the harder it will be to find "all serious players" in a random game. instead you get some afk, some just jumping around trolling every tree and others like to grief and gank.
you tried that in the 90s, you had to find a new server and that's nothing you wanted to do after you found a good one.
just my opinion of corz, i don't have stats or anything to prove it :P
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
Yep.... playing old games I was nicer... playing newer games I am... less social.
But when I played Xsyon (the latest game I've played), I was nice again and quite a bit more social... lol. Now yes that game is still in development (even thought I paid for it).
It's definitely the game.
When you need groups to succeed (grinders...) or when the game is about community (Xsyon), players usually come together and it's much more fun. Current games you NEED friends from before playing the game to have the same kind of fun. I had a friend tell me today "WoW would've sucked if I didn't play it with all of my friends I knew". Well...that's a probem.
The game makes the player.
Heck, there's more helpful people in Darkfall than there are in many of the other games. The reason for this is because those DF players know it's not really easy when you start playing.
I don't think it's a bad analogy, as a community isn't a real community if it's one that's forced to play that way. Just as a wife isn't a loving wife if she actually wants to leave you. You can call it what you want, a wife, a community in the end it's an illusion if it's not how those taking part actually want things to be. Good games do not force you down a path bad games do.
Sorry but it was a terrible analogy which is no doubt why you have changed it to "loving wife" which is a rather large change.
I can't understand why people seem unable to grasp the concept that traditonal mmorpgs were about world simulation and player interaction. Certain tasks involve working with other players. You are not forced to do that, sit in your e-house and talk to the walls on your own, no one would care, but people some how equating a game with social dynamics to "omg forced, he forced me to speak to that crafter!!!!!!" is nonsense.
The artifical worlds are meant to mirror the social and community aspects of the real world to a greater or lesser extent. If people want to go to the moon they have to work with other people. If people want to build a multinational corporation they have to work with other people.
Seriously there are countless types of games out there, one type has traditionally centred around massed player interaction and player driven worlds. And yet people have come in and complained about that very aspect... my word. I think I may start complaining about pvp and other players fucking up my game time in multiplayer first person shooter games. The fact that there are plenty of single player FPS on the market is by the by, I want a totally single player experience in my multiplayer shooter games.
I really don't feel like writing the same post twice so just look at the post above yours.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
People miistake community and human interaftion. Interaction - competition, cooperation, grouping, command pvp etc - I'm all for. Community - finding friends and buildng a social circle together - I don't want. I'm not looking for friends in online games anymore. Nor for social network. I have one already in real life, don't need any more.
Oh, and about griefers and stuff. I've started when I was 15, I think. Arctic MUD, krynn-themed text-based mud. Now I'm 35, and I tell you - people haven't changed a tiny bit in 20 years. Group social dynamics have changed, due to different conditions and evolution of technologies and internet, but people were always the same.
Comments
You are right! Oh, hold on, the UI is telling me I need to move out of this AE...and all my skills are macroed on 1 or 2 buttons, I need to hit 1 and sometimes 2...but usually 1 real quick!
Whew...I am back, now what were we talking about?
No people are not different, just the games are lazy and easier mode...Can't blame people, you play how you need to play. IF everything can be macroed onto one key, which some classes in Rift, and I am sure a lot other games it can be, people will do it. The UIs have added functions to make it easier, and the developers have made things easier.
So yes people have not changed, but I have seen nothing in a modern game that challenges a person to be better, or show the personal skill that people needed in old school EQ, when raiding, and dealing with situations. Its not like their wasn't a bunch of mediocre people playing back in old school EQ either...People are the same, but imo, people had to work harder to shine and be a top player. I have seen old school enchanters do things for 10-12 hours straight while raiding, that I still find amazing to this day (no, I did not play one, I would of pulled my hair out, and gone postal). I use that as an example, I have not seen someone needing to show that level of player excellence, since earlier EQ. Before all the tools and dumbing down.
So to sum it up, no people are not different, but people were challenged more, and people had to meet the challenge and get better to be a 'quality' player. I think meeting the challenge was harder then, before all the tools, and simplifications.
So technically, you are correct, but if a hardcore game came out, that didn't have all the macros, and the you are playing dumb ui functions and such...I would prefer a 'good' old school player, over a 'good' new school player. Thats me though.
Communities cannot thrive in an environment that does not support them.
New MMOs lack incentive for players to interact positively with each other, and lack consequences for those who interact poorly with other players.
Just the same where in real life if there is little to no benefit to others working together, and little to no infrastructive of law and order to deter anti-social behavior (i.e. theft, murder, etc), then communities dissolve into social anarchy.
In other words, it's not forced community, it's encourage community and discouraged anti-social behavior. If you don't want to participate in an online community, don't play an MMO.
I'd say it's a combination of both IMO. However, I think it leans a bit more so towards game mechanics producing them. MMO's have become so simplified that any dbag can get to max level with relative ease...then they get bored and resort to entertaining themselves by showing how 1337 they are through repeatedly terrorizing those that can do little to defend themselves.
I have been griefed numerous times in numerous MMO's to date since EQ. But it didn't turn me into one of those dbags through enduring years of it. Just depends on the person's personality and morals more to me than what they themselves endure in games as to how they react in said game and future games they play.
This concludes my Dr. Phil moment
.
Incentives are one thing, forced is something else. SWG had great community but it was never forced. There was plenty of solability in the game. There were plenty of AFk dancers in guild cantina's or public ones for those who were not social or feeling social at the time. Giving your players options, is the key. Forcing them down a path is bad no matter how you look at it.
As for that last part bollocks...
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
So, under this logic my boss is not my boss because I feel forced to work for him- awesome! And taxes are not "my" taxes because I feel forced to pay them! woot
Lath
No that would not be covered under that logic, a gaming community and a wife are two things that a person has a choice in. While you have a choice in where you work, you do not have a choice in who will be your boss at the place you chose. Taxes again you have no choice in that matter.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I started playing EQ1 back in 1999, and there were plenty of idiots back then, just mostly different kinds of idiots from what you see today.
Due to the non instanced world and the competition over rare spawns, you saw plenty of intentional KSing, ninja looting, training, griefing, camp swiping, etc. Due to hardly anything being no trade and the fact that money was very hard to acquire and it could be hard to come up with cash to just buy your spells, there were a huge amount of beggars. Due to difficult travel wizards and druids were constantly spammed to drop what they were doing to port someone somewhere. Clerics constantly bugged for rezzes. Buffing classes constantly bugged for SoW and other buffs. The list goes on.
One thing I did not see in EQ nearly as much as I see in modern games is random /ooc or /shout spam. Sure, it existed, but was largely confined to crowded low level zones like Lake of Ill Omen and the Oasis of Marr. You didn't really see crap like Chuck Norris jokes (Chuck Norris wasn't a meme back then I know, but whatever the equivalent would have been).
So in short, people still found plenty of ways to be an asshat, they just did it in different ways than you see today.
Um...MMORPG's were MEANT to be made for community. It is what seperated them from console gaming...where you must of come from considering your cluelessness to this fact. It really wasn't "forced" on the player. It was however far more encouraged than it is in any modern MMO. I could of soloed to cap in the days of EQ...it just would of taken MUCH longer is all.
Most players these days I feel came from a strictly console gaming background that were drawn in from the "WoW' era when Blizzard's mass media blitz on radio, t.v., etc peaked the curiousity and interest of people outside of the niche community of tabletop players. Most think that MMO's are suppose to be like that game (WoW), and do not want to recognize the mechanics and social aspects of these earlier games and what made them unique and a seperate genre from console games. Because...they didn't play them and grow with the genre in the first place. Why do you think most MMO's these days seem more like single player console games? And are simplified with instant gratification features? Seems to me because the companies know the majority are...dare I say from the console genre?
Don't get me wrong....I grew up with console games too (First system was the Atari 2600). But I started playing MMO's when they were in their infancy and playing them was done on dial-up connections. And know what made them different from console games. These days, that line of difference is severely blurred and almost completely gone.....sadly.
lol wut?
Your wife is indeed your wife whether she feels forced to be with you or not and she will remain as such until she leaves and divorces you. What an incredibly poor analogy.
And yes, a community is a community regardless as to the circumstances that bring it together.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
I don't think it's a bad analogy, as a community isn't a real community if it's one that's forced to play that way. Just as a wife isn't a loving wife if she actually wants to leave you. You can call it what you want, a wife, a community in the end it's an illusion if it's not how those taking part actually want things to be. Good games do not force you down a path bad games do.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
OK, i have a better one- A group is not a group if im forced into grouping!
I hear what you are trying to say- and I hope I did not come off as an a-hole but I think we are "forced" to do a lot of things in games by way of designers trying to make things a better experience. Of course, no one has to participate in many of the things developers put into games - community, grouping, etc. And im actually on the side of letting people play the way they like but like MMORPG's we are forced IRL to be in the community- to what extent is up to you.
In a way, this argument, and let me state again- i am for people playing games the way they want- but in a way people who play MMO's who dont want to be forced to group- talk to other people- at the same time want to take advantage of the auction house, the crafted items other things that having a community brings etc. Its like: people want all the things that make MMO's uniquely different than single player RPG's but dont want to be a part of that uniqueness.
Lath
A group is multiple people simply being together. That's not what a MMO community actually is..
I look at it like this..
There are two forms of community in an MMO. First you have the overall community, then you have what people refer to when they talk about community is missing in todays MMO(s).
The latter form is people coming together in a harmonious fashion. It's not about hey I need you to come help me run this dungeon, then we'll never speak again, simply because I can't do it otherwise. A true community works togther, they hang out together, they like each other, they support each other. This is only possible if those people want this, if they don't it's nothing but an illusion of community. Nothing really positive comes from that, just a whole lot of negative experiences. WOW as an example..
When people are forced to work together you end up with horror stories like you hear about WOW. When you let players do as they please true communities form, SWG as an example...
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Sorry but it was a terrible analogy which is no doubt why you have changed it to "loving wife" which is a rather large change.
I can't understand why people seem unable to grasp the concept that traditonal mmorpgs were about world simulation and player interaction. Certain tasks involve working with other players. You are not forced to do that, sit in your e-house and talk to the walls on your own, no one would care, but people some how equating a game with social dynamics to "omg forced, he forced me to speak to that crafter!!!!!!" is nonsense.
The artifical worlds are meant to mirror the social and community aspects of the real world to a greater or lesser extent. If people want to go to the moon they have to work with other people. If people want to build a multinational corporation they have to work with other people.
Seriously there are countless types of games out there, one type has traditionally centred around massed player interaction and player driven worlds. And yet people have come in and complained about that very aspect... my word. I think I may start complaining about pvp and other players fucking up my game time in multiplayer first person shooter games. The fact that there are plenty of single player FPS on the market is by the by, I want a totally single player experience in my multiplayer shooter games.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Removing pointless tedium and endless grinding as well as poorly designed and implemented game mechanics is NOT "dumbing down" by any stretch of the imagination.
I HATE that term.
As someone who has been playing these games for about 12 years I personally believe that MMOs were a LOT simpler back then.
Back then I only really played UO and SWG for any extended period of time (before 2004) and there wasn't anything all too complex in either game - however SWG did have a lot of poorly designed clutter and tedium.
It's not that things are really all that different, now things are just presented a whole lot better and there is a lot more instruction and direction.
It isn't "dumbing down" to provide tutorials and a gradual learning curve.
Some things I will admit have greatly lowered the skill and intelligence requirements of this genre, however.
The real funny thing? Most of things were created by US the users, not the developers.
Things like GearScore and Deadly Boss Mods and Quest Helper and Recount were created by the community, not the developers.
Things like cross-server random group finders and more simplistic talent trees were put into these games because WE complained to no end about long queues and forced grouping and WE complained about useless/cluttered talent trees and WE complained about confusing statistics...
So maybe that is the real answer... maybe the OP is wrong and the truth is that this genre is EXACTLY where it is at today because we, the players, whined and begged and screamed for 6+ years to make it this way.
I can definitely sympathize with the folks who think this genre has gone in the wrong direction, and maybe they weren't the ones complaining about this stuff the whole time, maybe they were...
But at the same time we've left behind a LOT of the stupid, poorly designed, boring crap that used to define this genre and those who played in it.
I know I used to have more time and a lot more patience. If that made me "better" then I am today, then so be it.
dont know what games you were playing.... but people alway called others #@%# and ghey ect to their face ingame.
But i agree retards back then retards now,... Game wise most are pretty lame now.
this thread is silly its not the people who have changed its the games combined with the addition of many many more people.
If you dont understand how games have changed and been dumbed down to be sold and played by players of all skill levels then you should go grab an emulator and play some old school games.
Play any current console RPG / action / action rpg / strategy game, and then play any older game from the same genre in many cases from the same company and you will very quickly see how much more was expected from the player back in the old days and how little is expected of a player now adays.
Games used to be very hard, and all those who played were serious gamers who enjoyde the challenge. Old RPGs like Final fantasy 1/2/3 and a ton others expected the player to do a lot.
If you play FF1 you will quickly see how much more you are expected to do. There are no quest icons or trails to follow, your expected to go around the town speak to every NPC, gather information, string together bits of information and then come to the conclusion of where you must go and what you must do. There is no map, there is no log or journal, best case you may be told to head North or East but you were still left to explore and find everything. Ontop of these kinds of things you actualy can and will die in these games where as most recent rpgs I have played through I have never died in a long time, the other day I died playing chrono trigger about 10 mins into the game I cant remember any 2009+ game where I have ever died let a lone in the first 15 mins.
I'd suggest that players back in the "good" old days had more in common with each other. So a person might conclude that people were "better" back then. Back then, if you weren't a gamer, then you had no idea what an MMO/MUD was, and didn't care.
Nowadays folks of all walks of life can be found in a game. They may not have all the lines from Holy Grail memorized or read Dork Tower. Doesn't make them inferior.
I think players "Back then" had a more sense of honor and humility. Today everyone wants to be number 1 in everything, "Back then" people just wanted to be playing. If you wanted to test the waters, open a game with full loot open world pvp with sandbox feel (UO comes to mind). "Back then" You'd have entire Police guilds that would answer the call of anyone who had been "unjustly" slain in pvp. I missed the days when an entire guild would go on a head hunt for pkers, this was half the fun for most old MMOs, at least for me it was. Today, everyone would just be PKing everyone that moved, and there might be 1 guild that would police the areas.
I'm about to turn 31, and I started playing MMO's when I was 22. So it's not that I'm getting older and wiser that's making me see them, because I'm sure you meant that comment towards those who began as teenagers and are entering their 20's, else what's their excuse for believing the old community was better?
Anyways, the old community was better back then. My first game was DAoC.The majority of people were group oriented and sociable while in group. If you needed help, people didn't insult you or called you a noob. Instead, many people would drop everything they were doing, travel 20 min by horse to reach you and show you what to do. The only time I ran into asshats was when people were stealing the rare spawns that took days to respawn. You'd wait there for several hours, only to have some jerk steal the spawn when it appears. But that's a small handful of people, compared to the anti-social questers you see in post-WoW games and the adolescent behavior you see non-stop on trade and general chat channels.
In DAoC, people were proud of their realm and took care of their own. They nurtured the new players, taught them how to play their class, and showed them the ropes. Can't say the same about WoW and post-WoW players.
SWG was even more awesome than DAoC as far as community goes. Because the economy was player ran and players were interdependent upon each other, people were respectful, nice, and courteous to each other.
What's common between SWG and DAoC? They were both group centric sociable games. If you wanted to achieve anything in these two games, you relied upon other players. You needed them for groups to speed up the xp process, materials for crafting, and companionship for downtime. Just like in real life, when people are forced to rely upon others, we remember our manners and actually are nice to people and what do you know, you actually end up meeting some good people and making friends.
I'm not saying I haven't met similar people in WoW or post-WoW games, only that whereas once I'd generalize an entire community being great in DAoC and SWG, I'd generalize the entire community in WoW and post-WoW games to be immature and rude, with the exception being a small handful of guilds that are extremely small, but helpful and friendly.
Listen, Alice...
You're not fooling anyone, you know.
Am I right?
Now stand aside, worthy adversary.
The players haven't changed. Most new people just don't know what they want. Not yet at least. MMO's used to be about building worlds. An escape from reality in the purist sense. It wasn't about winning or losing. It was far bigger than levels, itemization, classes, and graphics. It was about creating stories that you couldn't just read, you could actually live them. That's the closest thing to a fantasy experience any of us can get, or ever will get. That was the original vision.
I don't mean to sound Burkean, but when you're in the business of creating virtual worlds, the designers have an obligation to the give communities as much freedom as possible, and its impossible to be free when there is only room for one community in the designers world. The paradox being that a designer can't imagine all the possible communities that could exist.But we can't spend our entire lives in the virtual world, there has to be design mechanics that allow any kind of community to be productive, otherwise everyone will collapse into one group. That was why UO failed, and so many other sandbox games. We can't get perfection, but we sure as hell can get closer to it than we have in the past.
sorry, but you made an error in your theory.
12 years ago - or lets rephrase that - 18 years ago you did not find 6 million kids playing games on the web.
when the whole "online gaming" thing started, it was about people who REALLY WANTED TO PLAY, have fun, and if possible win. if they lost there was a "gg" or maybe a small pun, but thats it.
now it's "uh mommy buy me wow, all the cool kids play it!" ... you see where i am getting there? :P
people definately changed.
and the more people you get, the harder it will be to find "all serious players" in a random game. instead you get some afk, some just jumping around trolling every tree and others like to grief and gank.
you tried that in the 90s, you had to find a new server
and that's nothing you wanted to do after you found a good one.
just my opinion of corz, i don't have stats or anything to prove it :P
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
Yep.... playing old games I was nicer... playing newer games I am... less social.
But when I played Xsyon (the latest game I've played), I was nice again and quite a bit more social... lol. Now yes that game is still in development (even thought I paid for it).
It's definitely the game.
When you need groups to succeed (grinders...) or when the game is about community (Xsyon), players usually come together and it's much more fun. Current games you NEED friends from before playing the game to have the same kind of fun. I had a friend tell me today "WoW would've sucked if I didn't play it with all of my friends I knew". Well...that's a probem.
The game makes the player.
Heck, there's more helpful people in Darkfall than there are in many of the other games. The reason for this is because those DF players know it's not really easy when you start playing.
I really don't feel like writing the same post twice so just look at the post above yours.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
People miistake community and human interaftion. Interaction - competition, cooperation, grouping, command pvp etc - I'm all for. Community - finding friends and buildng a social circle together - I don't want. I'm not looking for friends in online games anymore. Nor for social network. I have one already in real life, don't need any more.
Oh, and about griefers and stuff. I've started when I was 15, I think. Arctic MUD, krynn-themed text-based mud. Now I'm 35, and I tell you - people haven't changed a tiny bit in 20 years. Group social dynamics have changed, due to different conditions and evolution of technologies and internet, but people were always the same.