What's a "WoW Clone" exactly? everyone uses it like it actually means anything.
Simply put, a game that copies WOW's mechanic's and visuals in an attempt to repeat their commercal success. That would be my definition anyway.
So you are saying that if a game uses a ui, quests, hotbar, pixels, its got to be a wow clone. sorry that doesnt make sense to me one bit. many many games had all that before wow ever did, and hopefully many games continue to have them.
WoW clones can succeed. I think SWTOR will be an example. I also think Rift is an example.
For a game to be a success doesn't mean it needs 11 million subs, it need to have enough revenue to fund development while turning a profit.
Also, in teh early stages of planning and development, the investors need to be confident their investment will turn a profit. This is why all games start out as "WoW Clones" since that's what investors see as the biggest success.
WoW-formula games only "succeed" if they change their criteria for success as they go along.
The whole point of pitching the WoW clone to the board room is that you are shooting for mass market success...they are pitching WoW-like sub numbers as the central reasoning for following the same old conventional wisdom. When the game releases and they don't even get 1/10 of WoW's numbers, and then quickly drop off to maybe 1/4 of what they started with...that's a mass market failure, and a complete failure to meet the initial expectations they gave to their investors.
Sure, they can then claim that they are a niche success...but moving the target after you pull the trigger generally isn't a good way to win marksmanship contests.
I'm not saying they are (or should) pitch WoW numbers, that would be just plain foolish. I really don't think ANY MMO will ever reach 10 million subs again. Why they likely are pitching is the "Wow formula" is it seems to attract subs moreso than any other.
I also agree that there does need to be at least something different in the game design. e.g. TOR's voice acting or WAR's PQ's or TSW's level-less skill system.
Whether we like it or not, all future MMO's will be compared to WoW. I hate the fact, but it is what it is...
What's a "WoW Clone" exactly? everyone uses it like it actually means anything.
Simply put, a game that copies WOW's mechanic's and visuals in an attempt to repeat their commercal success. That would be my definition anyway.
So you are saying that if a game uses a ui, quests, hotbar, pixels, its got to be a wow clone. sorry that doesnt make sense to me one bit. many many games had all that before wow ever did, and hopefully many games continue to have them.
No I did not say that. You made something up to make a point.
What's a "WoW Clone" exactly? everyone uses it like it actually means anything.
Simply put, a game that copies WOW's mechanic's and visuals in an attempt to repeat their commercal success. That would be my definition anyway.
So you are saying that if a game uses a ui, quests, hotbar, pixels, its got to be a wow clone. sorry that doesnt make sense to me one bit. many many games had all that before wow ever did, and hopefully many games continue to have them.
No I did not say that. You made something up tp make a point.
no, i read what you said and interpreted it. you said wow's mechanics and visuals... if my reply doesnt apply to your reply then your reply must be incomplete. I've seen 1 game that looked so close to wow that i could call it a wow clone. i believe it was some f2p game. it had the same basic characters that looked like wow, the same artwork, the exact same ui.
i have never seen any other game that would be considered a wow clone. that is the reason i asked a very simple question, what is a wow clone? if you cant answer that, then you are using made up words to describe an opinion.
What's a "WoW Clone" exactly? everyone uses it like it actually means anything.
Simply put, a game that copies WOW's mechanic's and visuals in an attempt to repeat their commercal success. That would be my definition anyway.
So you are saying that if a game uses a ui, quests, hotbar, pixels, its got to be a wow clone. sorry that doesnt make sense to me one bit. many many games had all that before wow ever did, and hopefully many games continue to have them.
No I did not say that. You made something up tp make a point.
no, i read what you said and interpreted it. you said wow's mechanics and visuals... if my reply doesnt apply to your reply then your reply must be incomplete. I've seen 1 game that looked so close to wow that i could call it a wow clone. i believe it was some f2p game. it had the same basic characters that looked like wow, the same artwork, the exact same ui.
i have never seen any other game that would be considered a wow clone. that is the reason i asked a very simple question, what is a wow clone? if you cant answer that, then you are using made up words to describe an opinion.
I remember watching Family Guy where Stewie asked Brian to name five songs with female names in them. Of course he does so, he asks for five more, and then ten more, and Brian names them all. What I mean to say is that I seem to be living one of my favourite cartoons.
What's a "WoW Clone" exactly? everyone uses it like it actually means anything.
Simply put, a game that copies WOW's mechanic's and visuals in an attempt to repeat their commercal success. That would be my definition anyway.
So you are saying that if a game uses a ui, quests, hotbar, pixels, its got to be a wow clone. sorry that doesnt make sense to me one bit. many many games had all that before wow ever did, and hopefully many games continue to have them.
No I did not say that. You made something up tp make a point.
no, i read what you said and interpreted it. you said wow's mechanics and visuals... if my reply doesnt apply to your reply then your reply must be incomplete. I've seen 1 game that looked so close to wow that i could call it a wow clone. i believe it was some f2p game. it had the same basic characters that looked like wow, the same artwork, the exact same ui.
i have never seen any other game that would be considered a wow clone. that is the reason i asked a very simple question, what is a wow clone? if you cant answer that, then you are using made up words to describe an opinion.
I remember watching Family Guy where Stewie asked Brian to name five songs with female names in them. Of course he does so, he asks for five more, and then ten more, and Brian names them all. What I mean to say is that I seem to be living one of my favourite cartoons.
Got to agree, very spurious thinking from Death. Very....
A wow-clone can still be a great game. I think SWTor is a wow-clone and I also think it's going to be a huge hit and well received. I think the big problem though is that many of the wow-clones really don't reproduce the fun factor of WoW. They fail to offer anything new, and it plays out like your just playing the exact same game you've played again and again with a different wrapper.
A wow-clone can still be a great game. I think SWTor is a wow-clone and I also think it's going to be a huge hit and well received. I think the big problem though is that many of the wow-clones really don't reproduce the fun factor of WoW. They fail to offer anything new, and it plays out like your just playing the exact same game you've played again and again with a different wrapper.
I disagree, have you plyed DragonAge or Mass Effect franchises? WOW has argued against voice acting for one reason and one only, there is only one way to say 'kill ten rats'. I truly think that even treated as the solo event that a lot of MMO players seem to follow lately, this will be great fun.
problem with these so call wow clones is they truly lack the clone part : .
1) huge seemless world
2) fluid combat animations, blizzard also keep visiting back and change the outlook, like spells
3) class quest ( no longer around)
4) vanilla it's quite a long journey to lvl 60
5) a lore that players know from the famous rts game, already they have a strong playerbase
6) advertising
7) the time when wow is release.
8) classes, look at wow class properly and you will see although not as much as say eq2 yet they have combine and make them better more variety in a single class. . etc etc....... .
so alot of factors make wow successful this day, and yet alot of other dev just can't seem to understand, but just dumb alot of quest and hope to have the same success
I'm not saying they are (or should) pitch WoW numbers, that would be just plain foolish. I really don't think ANY MMO will ever reach 10 million subs again. Why they likely are pitching is the "Wow formula" is it seems to attract subs moreso than any other.
How would they know that? They have nothing to compare it to. All the genre has turned out in the last six years is either low-budget niche titles, or big-budget WoW-formula games that end up with niche sub numbers. They are pitching "if you let us build a game using this formula (insert conventional wisdom here), we COULD see numbers like WoW".
I also agree that there does need to be at least something different in the game design. e.g. TOR's voice acting or WAR's PQ's or TSW's level-less skill system.
Just having the same formula with a few things tacked on doesn't work. It hasn't worked for games like Rift...and it will continue to not work with games like TOR. You've got to break completely out of the mindset of the conventional wisdom, re-examine the fundamentals of the genre, and at least make a decent number of solid design decisions that create a new and better game. If you set out thinking that it ain't broke, so don't fix it, you've already failed. It IS broke. The conventional wisdom leads to mass market failure, and there will never be a game as successful as WoW as long as developers keep doing the same thing and expecting a different result.
Whether we like it or not, all future MMO's will be compared to WoW. I hate the fact, but it is what it is...
I agree, but here's a key point... they can't fail the comparison. If your design choices all map directly onto WoW's design, and you're game is smaller, more shallow, and has dramatically less content... guess what's going to happen?
The next great game is going to not only compare favorably to WoW in certain aspects (in other words, legitimately be BETTER), but will also defy conventions in some ways. It will HAVE to separate itself enough so that some of the game can't be directly compared, because that's the hallmark of innovation. Solving old problems in new, better, imaginative ways.
My definition of success in the MMORPG genre is the following:
The game must garner the sales and/or subscription numbers that the company was shooting for with their design (i.e. if you make a triple-A mass-market-appeal game, you're numbers have to reflect that - sales in the millions)
The game's player base must GROW over time, not shrink. These games are supposed to be virtual worlds with persistent communities of players who stay around for longer than a month or two. If your numbers are dropping drastically - you aren't a success. Players should be talking their friends and family into joining up, not leaving in droves because they're bored.
My definition of WoW clone is really really long...but here's a quick version:
A game where the developers made all or most of their design decisions in terms of the philosophy behind their game based on the success of WoW. In other words, if you were to ask them why they think there should be a soft death penalty, or why there should be instanced raids for endgame, or whatever...there answer would involve something about "WoW is really successful, and these are the things players expect, and if it ain't broke don't fix it". In other words, developers who use conventional wisdom or the design of WoW to make their decisions for them on most aspects of their game, rather than using original thought, imagination, or innovative ideas.
If you are looking at an upcoming MMORPG, and all of the fundamental systems and mechanics (combat, leveling, loot, UI maps, layout, death penalty, endgame, and on and on) are set up the same way they are in WoW, simply BECAUSE that's the way they are in WoW... then it's a WoW clone. Developers may not readily admit that they did those things because of WoW and its success, but it's usually pretty obvious when they aren't thinking for themselves.
People toss around "WoW clone" so often it's lost all meaning and seemingly applies to EVERY mmorpg made now a days..
Seriously, just don't care anymore..
Keep your mouth shut, zellmer. I know you mean well, but it's for the best. It's already bad enough that MMOs are being branded this way and people are accepting it. Don't you guys get it? As long as you keep buying 'MMORPG-clones' like Rift and SWTOR, there won't be a change. Stop complaining about the lack of originality and how bad things are right now when you're buying these games. You don't really want change, you want another WoW. Don't be a hypocrite and pretend otherwise.
People toss around "WoW clone" so often it's lost all meaning and seemingly applies to EVERY mmorpg made now a days..
Seriously, just don't care anymore..
Keep your mouth shut, zellmer. I know you mean well, but it's for the best. It's already bad enough that MMOs are being branded this way and people are accepting it. Don't you guys get it? As long as you keep buying 'MMORPG-clones' like Rift and SWTOR, there won't be a change. Stop complaining about the lack of originality and how bad things are right now when you're buying these games. You don't really want change, you want another WoW. Don't be a hypocrite and pretend otherwise.
Ok, calm down mate. Rift brings nothing new to the forum. STOR brings interactive stories only seen in single player games before. That is quite an advancement.
Because they focus on the mechanics rather than the world. In all WoW wanabees I've played, the objective is to follow the big arrow on the map and kill the mobs there. WoW has a much richer world, with caves, mountain passes, insect nests, hidden temples/shrines, camps scattered throughout each zone. This, coupled with great art style and music creates a very nice gaming experience.
Although I have to say, when I played the WoW trial recently for fun, it didn't have as much effect on me because of the map addons they built-in the game. Now you also only watch the map where to go, kill stuff and return.
Because time passed. It's been over 7 years since WoW release, and a bit more since first EQ, yet over that time we've seen very little innovation in the gameplay of MMOs. Sure, some things got polished, but over all we had very litte defining features put into the MMOs over last few years.
What was fine 7, 6 maybe even 5 years ago is not really what gamers are looking for today. Simple as that.
Because WoW is evil and must be stopped, so all games that have something in common will be considered "just another WoW clone" and a dismal failure unless it doubles the playerbase WoW has, makes it go F2P or just close its servers and everyone working in blizzard either get laid off or perform seppuku, at which point every game coming out in the future will be referred as "(insert new dominant game name here) clone" and from that point on will be considered the new evil that needs to be stopped.
Next evil game already on our doorstep swtor and its even simpler and dumber then WoW im looking forward to all the bash swtor topics:P
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77 CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now)) MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB PSU:Corsair AX1200i OS:Windows 10 64bit
My definition of success in the MMORPG genre is the following:
The game must garner the sales and/or subscription numbers that the company was shooting for with their design (i.e. if you make a triple-A mass-market-appeal game, you're numbers have to reflect that - sales in the millions)
The game's player base must GROW over time, not shrink. These games are supposed to be virtual worlds with persistent communities of players who stay around for longer than a month or two. If your numbers are dropping drastically - you aren't a success. Players should be talking their friends and family into joining up, not leaving in droves because they're bored.
My definition of WoW clone is really really long...but here's a quick version:
A game where the developers made all or most of their design decisions in terms of the philosophy behind their game based on the success of WoW. In other words, if you were to ask them why they think there should be a soft death penalty, or why there should be instanced raids for endgame, or whatever...there answer would involve something about "WoW is really successful, and these are the things players expect, and if it ain't broke don't fix it". In other words, developers who use conventional wisdom or the design of WoW to make their decisions for them on most aspects of their game, rather than using original thought, imagination, or innovative ideas.
If you are looking at an upcoming MMORPG, and all of the fundamental systems and mechanics (combat, leveling, loot, UI maps, layout, death penalty, endgame, and on and on) are set up the same way they are in WoW, simply BECAUSE that's the way they are in WoW... then it's a WoW clone. Developers may not readily admit that they did those things because of WoW and its success, but it's usually pretty obvious when they aren't thinking for themselves.
Just to echo Fozzik's sentiment, here's a quote from the speech in my sig file.
According to James Phinney, lead designer of StarCraft and Guild Wars, every great game starts with one question: "What do I want to play next?". This may seem an obvious statement, but his point is that designers are often asked to make a game that is specifically designed to be "better" than a successful game from a competitor, rather than making a game that is exciting and new. How many designers have been asked to make a "GTA killer", or a "Guitar Hero killer", or a "WoW killer"? I personally have heard numerous designers and producers working on unreleased MMO projects describe their game in these terms: "It's like WoW, but..." I just shake my head when I hear this, because the team that is best poised to deliver a successful game that is an evolution of WoW is... well, the WoW team. They've got their thing, and they're good at it. Let's all carve out our own thing, and be the best at it. Truly great games are made by passionate teams who are on fire with the notion of changing the industry. If you are aiming at a competitor rather than aiming to make something fresh and innovative, you've lost.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it."-Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
Comments
Simply put, a game that copies WOW's mechanic's and visuals in an attempt to repeat their commercal success. That would be my definition anyway.
So you are saying that if a game uses a ui, quests, hotbar, pixels, its got to be a wow clone. sorry that doesnt make sense to me one bit. many many games had all that before wow ever did, and hopefully many games continue to have them.
I'm not saying they are (or should) pitch WoW numbers, that would be just plain foolish. I really don't think ANY MMO will ever reach 10 million subs again. Why they likely are pitching is the "Wow formula" is it seems to attract subs moreso than any other.
I also agree that there does need to be at least something different in the game design. e.g. TOR's voice acting or WAR's PQ's or TSW's level-less skill system.
Whether we like it or not, all future MMO's will be compared to WoW. I hate the fact, but it is what it is...
No I did not say that. You made something up to make a point.
no, i read what you said and interpreted it. you said wow's mechanics and visuals... if my reply doesnt apply to your reply then your reply must be incomplete. I've seen 1 game that looked so close to wow that i could call it a wow clone. i believe it was some f2p game. it had the same basic characters that looked like wow, the same artwork, the exact same ui.
i have never seen any other game that would be considered a wow clone. that is the reason i asked a very simple question, what is a wow clone? if you cant answer that, then you are using made up words to describe an opinion.
Yeah, I have an opinion.
I remember watching Family Guy where Stewie asked Brian to name five songs with female names in them. Of course he does so, he asks for five more, and then ten more, and Brian names them all. What I mean to say is that I seem to be living one of my favourite cartoons.
Got to agree, very spurious thinking from Death. Very....
A wow-clone can still be a great game. I think SWTor is a wow-clone and I also think it's going to be a huge hit and well received. I think the big problem though is that many of the wow-clones really don't reproduce the fun factor of WoW. They fail to offer anything new, and it plays out like your just playing the exact same game you've played again and again with a different wrapper.
https://www.therepopulation.com - Sci Fi Sandbox.
Seriously...who doesn't like pie?
I disagree, have you plyed DragonAge or Mass Effect franchises? WOW has argued against voice acting for one reason and one only, there is only one way to say 'kill ten rats'. I truly think that even treated as the solo event that a lot of MMO players seem to follow lately, this will be great fun.
People toss around "WoW clone" so often it's lost all meaning and seemingly applies to EVERY mmorpg made now a days..
Seriously, just don't care anymore..
It is shorthand, we use it all the time.
'hi'
'you ok' (read hi).
we use shorthand all the time.
problem with these so call wow clones is they truly lack the clone part : .
1) huge seemless world
2) fluid combat animations, blizzard also keep visiting back and change the outlook, like spells
3) class quest ( no longer around)
4) vanilla it's quite a long journey to lvl 60
5) a lore that players know from the famous rts game, already they have a strong playerbase
6) advertising
7) the time when wow is release.
8) classes, look at wow class properly and you will see although not as much as say eq2 yet they have combine and make them better more variety in a single class. . etc etc....... .
so alot of factors make wow successful this day, and yet alot of other dev just can't seem to understand, but just dumb alot of quest and hope to have the same success
RIP Orc Choppa
My definition of success in the MMORPG genre is the following:
The game must garner the sales and/or subscription numbers that the company was shooting for with their design (i.e. if you make a triple-A mass-market-appeal game, you're numbers have to reflect that - sales in the millions)
The game's player base must GROW over time, not shrink. These games are supposed to be virtual worlds with persistent communities of players who stay around for longer than a month or two. If your numbers are dropping drastically - you aren't a success. Players should be talking their friends and family into joining up, not leaving in droves because they're bored.
My definition of WoW clone is really really long...but here's a quick version:
A game where the developers made all or most of their design decisions in terms of the philosophy behind their game based on the success of WoW. In other words, if you were to ask them why they think there should be a soft death penalty, or why there should be instanced raids for endgame, or whatever...there answer would involve something about "WoW is really successful, and these are the things players expect, and if it ain't broke don't fix it". In other words, developers who use conventional wisdom or the design of WoW to make their decisions for them on most aspects of their game, rather than using original thought, imagination, or innovative ideas.
If you are looking at an upcoming MMORPG, and all of the fundamental systems and mechanics (combat, leveling, loot, UI maps, layout, death penalty, endgame, and on and on) are set up the same way they are in WoW, simply BECAUSE that's the way they are in WoW... then it's a WoW clone. Developers may not readily admit that they did those things because of WoW and its success, but it's usually pretty obvious when they aren't thinking for themselves.
Keep your mouth shut, zellmer. I know you mean well, but it's for the best. It's already bad enough that MMOs are being branded this way and people are accepting it. Don't you guys get it? As long as you keep buying 'MMORPG-clones' like Rift and SWTOR, there won't be a change. Stop complaining about the lack of originality and how bad things are right now when you're buying these games. You don't really want change, you want another WoW. Don't be a hypocrite and pretend otherwise.
Ok, calm down mate. Rift brings nothing new to the forum. STOR brings interactive stories only seen in single player games before. That is quite an advancement.
Because they focus on the mechanics rather than the world. In all WoW wanabees I've played, the objective is to follow the big arrow on the map and kill the mobs there. WoW has a much richer world, with caves, mountain passes, insect nests, hidden temples/shrines, camps scattered throughout each zone. This, coupled with great art style and music creates a very nice gaming experience.
Although I have to say, when I played the WoW trial recently for fun, it didn't have as much effect on me because of the map addons they built-in the game. Now you also only watch the map where to go, kill stuff and return.
MMO Dev need Steve Job mindset. If you suck at your job, you will be demoted or fired.
Pardon my English as it is not my 1st language
A zombie MMO? I like it.
A zombie MMO? I like it.
Loltasticcheers, I was quite proud.
I'll keep it short.
Because time passed. It's been over 7 years since WoW release, and a bit more since first EQ, yet over that time we've seen very little innovation in the gameplay of MMOs. Sure, some things got polished, but over all we had very litte defining features put into the MMOs over last few years.
What was fine 7, 6 maybe even 5 years ago is not really what gamers are looking for today. Simple as that.
Next evil game already on our doorstep swtor and its even simpler and dumber then WoW im looking forward to all the bash swtor topics:P
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77
CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k
GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now))
MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB
PSU:Corsair AX1200i
OS:Windows 10 64bit
Just to echo Fozzik's sentiment, here's a quote from the speech in my sig file.
According to James Phinney, lead designer of StarCraft and Guild Wars, every great game starts with one question: "What do I want to play next?". This may seem an obvious statement, but his point is that designers are often asked to make a game that is specifically designed to be "better" than a successful game from a competitor, rather than making a game that is exciting and new. How many designers have been asked to make a "GTA killer", or a "Guitar Hero killer", or a "WoW killer"? I personally have heard numerous designers and producers working on unreleased MMO projects describe their game in these terms: "It's like WoW, but..." I just shake my head when I hear this, because the team that is best poised to deliver a successful game that is an evolution of WoW is... well, the WoW team. They've got their thing, and they're good at it. Let's all carve out our own thing, and be the best at it. Truly great games are made by passionate teams who are on fire with the notion of changing the industry. If you are aiming at a competitor rather than aiming to make something fresh and innovative, you've lost.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." -Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007