knowing dps, armor, dex....stats..

Dewm · November 2011

So I guess i'm just throwing this out as a general question, But do most of you prefere knowing every last little detail about your char? like when it comes to stats, (i'll use WoW as an example)

You know every single stat,

you know how much agility, dex, armor, buffs....every single little stat. this armour will effect you this much, you are doing this much dps exactly at this time...etc...

Where as FFXi had it so you knew like dex and thos stats, but it wasn't really as precise, you didn't have a little meter right next to you the entire time saying "you are doing exactly 10 dps"

There is a little more guessing and less exact knowlege.

Upside to not knowing as much?

I dunno, to me it seemed better because it kept competition down, like in (wow) in a raid, if you should be doing 15dps but you are doing 13dps, you will get yelled at.

but in FFXI, as long as your gear was (for the most part) up to date, level wise you where left alone.

I dunno, it seems like nowdays things are to exact. But I never played EQ or anything like that so maybe FFXI was special.

gimmesome · November 2011

I also used to play FFXI.

I also agree that not knowing one's exact DPS and EXACT stat %'s was better. I think meters and number crunchers put too much emphasis on that and less on the actual gameplay and cooperation.

I had way more fun in FFXI groups than in any WoW group. If WoW tried to impliment to skill-chain system that FFXI had, we'd see how bad most of the players in WoW are, because all they do is spell/skill rotations and meter-watching.

EverSkelly · November 2011

Well, everquest kept it all secret as well. You never knew how much of real benefit you gain with some stat increase. All old games were like that. So FF wasn't the only one.

Some people want to roleplay, some - to explore, others want to do endgame.

At endgame you have to use parsers, know your stats, have to be practical, because every little piece of information means a lot at endgame.

I know all this statistics and thorough information can take away the magic from the game for some people. But there are people who want it and they should be able to know it. That said, i also don't like the people who whine every time when someone in their group does 10 dps lower than what they expected.

Dewm · November 2011

Originally posted by EverSkelly
Well, everquest kept it all secret as well. You never knew how much of real benefit you gain with some stat increase. All old games were like that. So FF wasn't the only one.

Some people want to roleplay, some - to explore, others want to do endgame.

At endgame you have to use parsers, know your stats, have to be practical, because every little piece of information means a lot at endgame.

I know all this statistics and thorough information can take away the magic from the game for some people. But there are people who want it and they should be able to know it. That said, i also don't like the people who whine every time when someone in their group does 10 dps lower than what they expected.

Yeah I guess thats my main problem with it, people consetrate (sp?) to much on endgame and competition, which for PVP is fine...but in my PVE games I just wanna have a good time, I want to live in a fantasy world where I can do whatever...

...its about the journey..

k11keeper · November 2011

I don't know how long ago you played FFXI but I played right up until the level cap increase and people were extremely elitist about gear that late in the game.

I would agree that in the early years it wasn't as much of a problem, if your gear was up to date you were good, if you had a few truly sought after pieces here and there even better. Yet at the end there before I quit if your gear wasn't premo or relatively elite while in a merit party, people would make rude comments. "Oh you know such and such item is better than what you got", "Why don't you come back when you get ______ so we can actually get some xp today." It got really old and even though I was pretty decked out with a few jobs, it was annoying listening to people bother other party members about it.

This happened mainly because damage calculators and information on the interenet all but got rid of the guess work. I really hated the damage calculators and number crunchers pushing there way of playing on everyone else. It made it feel less of a game and more of a chore.

Dewm · November 2011

Originally posted by k11keeper
I don't know how long ago you played FFXI but I played right up until the level cap increase and people were extremely elitist about gear that late in the game.

I would agree that in the early years it wasn't as much of a problem, if your gear was up to date you were good, if you had a few truly sought after pieces here and there even better. Yet at the end there before I quit if your gear wasn't premo or relatively elite while in a merit party, people would make rude comments. "Oh you know such and such item is better than what you got", "Why don't you come back when you get ______ so we can actually get some xp today." It got really old and even though I was pretty decked out with a few jobs, it was annoying listening to people bother other party members about it.

This happened mainly because damage calculators and information on the interenet all but got rid of the guess work. I really hated the damage calculators and number crunchers pushing there way of playing on everyone else. It made it feel less of a game and more of a chore.

played from late 04' to late 08'...and yeah it wasn't an issue then. At least I almost never got comments about my crap.

VirusDancer · November 2011

For me... it depends on the game.

A game like WoW, RIFT, insert typical sword & sorcery fantasy game: No.

A game like EVE, Perpetuum, instert futuristic vehicular game: Yes.

Why?

In games like EVE, the number crunching is part of the immersion. In games like WoW, the number crunching breaks the immersion.

Dewm · November 2011

Originally posted by VirusDancer
For me... it depends on the game.

A game like WoW, RIFT, insert typical sword & sorcery fantasy game: No.

A game like EVE, Perpetuum, instert futuristic vehicular game: Yes.

Why?

In games like EVE, the number crunching is part of the immersion. In games like WoW, the number crunching breaks the immersion.

Yeah I could see that.

TJHooker · November 2011

Originally posted by Dewm

I dunno, it seems like nowdays things are to exact. But I never played EQ or anything like that so maybe FFXI was special.

The problem with Everquest at the beginning was that the manual was like all other RPGs in stating that warriors need strength and agility etc, but in the game it turned out that it made almost no difference whatsoever to a mele characters effectiveness.

After about a year people developed parsers for the first time and the truth started to be seen. The devs were pressed on the meaning of the resulsts but kept up the lies and pretense.

We were told to trust in the vison. But it was all lies.

cali59 · November 2011

I want to know everything. I just get a real enjoyment out of playing perfectly and theorycrafting. Give me the most detailed log parser ever. Give me the most complicated theorycrafting spreadsheet.

One example I always say is that even if your game was only one button with a one second CD, you'd lose like 17% DPS just in the difference between mashing that button and waiting to see that skill come off cooldown before hitting it. Imagine the huge potential variation when in a game that is actually complicated.

I just want to know how I'm doing, how other people are doing. And not just DPS like it's an epeen thing. I want to know all the little things. Who avoided damage, who interrupted spells, how much overhealing was there. If I'm looking to help myself, my group, my raid improve and take down a boss, I want to know everything, not just keep beating our heads against it and hope we figure it out.

Dewm · November 2011

Originally posted by TJHooker

Originally posted by Dewm

I dunno, it seems like nowdays things are to exact. But I never played EQ or anything like that so maybe FFXI was special.

The problem with Everquest at the beginning was that the manual was like all other RPGs in stating that warriors need strength and agility etc, but in the game it turned out that it made almost no difference whatsoever to a mele characters effectiveness.

After about a year people developed parsers for the first time and the truth started to be seen. The devs were pressed on the meaning of the resulsts but kept up the lies and pretense.

We were told to trust in the vison. But it was all lies.

But in a sence didn't that add more to it? I know one of the things I liked most about FFXI was it wasn't so cut'n dry. if you wanted to be a little diffrent you could.

With WOW its like...hunter..ok you HAVE to have a cat pet for PVP, you HAVE to have this exact skill tree. anything else..forget it.

I liked not knowing 100%, finding stuff out as we wen't along that made things intresting....I dunno seemed to add depth

KenFisher · November 2011

I enjoy micro-management of a character. Stats, gear and skills. It's like a built in mini-game for me.

You should see my banks :-) I usually have enough to gear a small army just so I can tweak builds.

TJHooker · November 2011

Originally posted by Dewm
But in a sence didn't that add more to it? I know one of the things I liked most about FFXI was it wasn't so cut'n dry. if you wanted to be a little diffrent you could.
With WOW its like...hunter..ok you HAVE to have a cat pet for PVP, you HAVE to have this exact skill tree. anything else..forget it.

I liked not knowing 100%, finding stuff out as we wen't along that made things intresting....I dunno seemed to add depth

You mean was it better to have an unbalanced game where hybrid mele classes were inferior, loads of equiment drops from bosses were useless, most mele stats were useless?

Was it better to just not know that the +5 str longsword of chopping was a fake? Play the game in ignorance 'the-way-it-was-ment-to-be-played' for a year before finding out what you had begun secretly fearing was true and that you were a gimp? Fill their coffers for a year whilst they hoped their player base never found out?

I've not played WoW. But I've played more recent MMOs than '99 EQ that give you unlimited info - eg Vanguard. At least you knew in VG that it was a bug that made the +5 longsword not work 'as intended' as they layed out the %gains that all +str would bring from the beginning.

I'd prefer never seeing a % symbol in an mmo. Brakes immersion. Hands the info to the player on a platter where it would clearly be better that the world give true cause an effect real feedback for a clever player to learn from. The info would end up on a website sooner than later anyway.

We have seen what would happen if developers did not have to contend with in game parsers. They would all lie to us and not bother to balance their classes. They would never bother to bug fix their broken weapons and stats.

Dewm · November 2011

Originally posted by TJHooker

Originally posted by Dewm

But in a sence didn't that add more to it? I know one of the things I liked most about FFXI was it wasn't so cut'n dry. if you wanted to be a little diffrent you could.

With WOW its like...hunter..ok you HAVE to have a cat pet for PVP, you HAVE to have this exact skill tree. anything else..forget it.

I liked not knowing 100%, finding stuff out as we wen't along that made things intresting....I dunno seemed to add depth

You mean was it better to have an unbalanced game where hybrid mele classes were inferior, loads of equiment drops from bosses were useless, most mele stats were useless?

Was it better to just not know that the +5 str longsword of chopping was a fake? Play the game in ignorance 'the-way-it-was-ment-to-be-played' for a year before finding out what you had begun secretly fearing was true and that you were a gimp? Fill their coffers for a year whilst they hoped their player base never found out?

I've not played WoW. But I've played more recent MMOs than '99 EQ that give you unlimited info - eg Vanguard. At least you knew in VG that it was a bug that made the +5 longsword not work 'as intended' as they layed out the %gains that all +str would bring from the beginning.

I'd prefer never seeing a % symbol in an mmo. Brakes immersion. Hands the info to the player on a platter where it would clearly be better that the world give true cause an effect real feedback for a clever player to learn from. The info would end up on a website sooner than later anyway.

We have seen what would happen if developers did not have to contend with in game parsers. They would all lie to us and not bother to balance their classes. They would never bother to bug fix their broken weapons and stats.

Well not knowing what "modern" mmo's you've played... BUT for anyone who's played wow..

*cough* Rogue *cough*

Adamantine · November 2011

The only reason why you need to know stats etc in detail in the first place is if your game offers a hard challenge.

If the game is easy as dirt, as for example "Star Wars: Knight of the Old Republic" was, nobody gives a damn.

Though even in that game I managed to create a total gimp character (pure evil Forceuser - they could not use any of the WIS items in the game, thus his DCs have been super weak and the final battle was insanely hard), and an character who never had any trouble at all - Str focussed Scoundrel 7 / Guardian with Power Attack and Dualweapon and the usual combo of Force Powers such as Speed - did such massive damage that his low AC never mattered, because opponents usually died instantly anyway, and even the toughest didnt last much longer.

If however the game is like, say, Wizardry 8, and you have to fight every three meters, and the combat is really tough, then you will start to optimize pretty quick and just keep optimizing.

Dewm · November 2011

Originally posted by Adamantine
The only reason why you need to know stats etc in detail in the first place is if your game offers a hard challenge.

If the game is easy as dirt, as for example "Star Wars: Knight of the Old Republic" was, nobody gives a damn.

Though even in that game I managed to create a total gimp character (pure evil Forceuser - they could not use any of the WIS items in the game, thus his DCs have been super weak and the final battle was insanely hard), and an character who never had any trouble at all - Str focussed Scoundrel 7 / Guardian with Power Attack and Dualweapon and the usual combo of Force Powers such as Speed - did such massive damage that his low AC never mattered, because opponents usually died instantly anyway, and even the toughest didnt last much longer.

If however the game is like, say, Wizardry 8, and you have to fight every three meters, and the combat is really tough, then you will start to optimize pretty quick and just keep optimizing.

I would disagree, and this is only my opinion, but I bet 100.00USD you could take a off build group, (DPS, tank, healer) where they all have medocre gear, and crappy skill tree's. and level them to cap in WoW, in about the same time.

so I don't think difficulty really matters.

And to me I would rather be playing in a fantasy world, haveing fun adventures then number crunching. Now games like EVE I could see, it almost fits "our lasers now put out 100 damage"

But can't says it fits with a dude and a sword and he's like "whew, i've been swinging this all day so my agility is .0023 higher!"

This would seem closer "well i've killed 3 rabbits today with my bow'n arrow, so I must be getting a little better...

I dunno, i'm just saying I would rather live in a fantasy world having fun, then microsoft exel watching bars and graphs all day...I do enough of that at work,

JohnnyBravol · November 2011

It's those powergamers. In this day and age simply playing and having fun isn't enough anymore. People need to waste even more time ruining their experience with endless calculations.

Creslin321 · November 2011

I like it to be a happy medium.

I like to have stats that give me a clear idea of my character's strengths, weaknesses, and how each of these affect gameplay on a general level. For example, I could have a "20" in dexterity, meaning that I am very agile, I'm good with bows and light weapons, and I score a lot of critical hits.

I don't really like it when it turns into a spreadsheet though. For example, I don't like to know that my exact gear and attribute combo will provide a DPS of 43.7 (exactly) all the time.

Adamantine · November 2011

Originally posted by Dewm

Originally posted by Adamantine

The only reason why you need to know stats etc in detail in the first place is if your game offers a hard challenge.

If the game is easy as dirt, as for example "Star Wars: Knight of the Old Republic" was, nobody gives a damn.

Though even in that game I managed to create a total gimp character (pure evil Forceuser - they could not use any of the WIS items in the game, thus his DCs have been super weak and the final battle was insanely hard), and an character who never had any trouble at all - Str focussed Scoundrel 7 / Guardian with Power Attack and Dualweapon and the usual combo of Force Powers such as Speed - did such massive damage that his low AC never mattered, because opponents usually died instantly anyway, and even the toughest didnt last much longer.

If however the game is like, say, Wizardry 8, and you have to fight every three meters, and the combat is really tough, then you will start to optimize pretty quick and just keep optimizing.

I would disagree, and this is only my opinion, but I bet 100.00USD you could take a off build group, (DPS, tank, healer) where they all have medocre gear, and crappy skill tree's. and level them to cap in WoW, in about the same time.

so I don't think difficulty really matters.

And to me I would rather be playing in a fantasy world, haveing fun adventures then number crunching. Now games like EVE I could see, it almost fits "our lasers now put out 100 damage"

But can't says it fits with a dude and a sword and he's like "whew, i've been swinging this all day so my agility is .0023 higher!"

This would seem closer "well i've killed 3 rabbits today with my bow'n arrow, so I must be getting a little better...

I dunno, i'm just saying I would rather live in a fantasy world having fun, then microsoft exel watching bars and graphs all day...I do enough of that at work,

I dont play WoW but I have met many people who claim WoW has no challenge any more.

Also, your claim makes no sense. Either a game is challenging, then optimizing your build is worthwhile, nay needed, to progress further.

Or it is not challenging, then you dont have to care. Much, anyway. As the KotOR example shows, even the most simple games might still turn tough if you manage to find the one gimp character the rulesystem allows.

FolbyOrb · November 2011

When I used to raid in WoW, I wanted to know everything. My guild raided three nights a week and the other four nights I would spend time doing what I needed to do to make my toon better.

I figured, "Maybe I'm not the best player, but if I get better every week, no one can complain about that, right?"

When I'm leveling or PvPing, I don't really care. As long as I can kill what I need to kill in order to level, it's all good. As long as I'm killing the other player in PvP, it's all good.

leojreimroc · November 2011

I actually enjoy the number crunching and knowing every single stat. However, at the same time, if I get too much into it, I usually eventually burn out.

Hedeon · November 2011

will put this right along side everyone seem to want to know exactly where new content have been added the second a new update have been implemented, then run to the quest giver/instance/or whichever ....completes it and either repeat endlessly or just sit back wait for the next, or if "too hard"....it just become so boring and reduce any sort of need for communication within the game.

either way for me a medium, I want to know what stats is helpful but exactly what each one does be unsaid, especially down to the point where you know exactly how much DPS each item will give or reduce, the less focus on general items the better, leave the obvious "overpowered" items feel like an achievement to find and obtain.

Wizardry · November 2011

Well OP ,i can tell you the vets know exactly what the numbers are in FFXI and a vet notices what every player is doing around him.

Numbers in FFXI were very unique and formulas much more in depth than most other games.

I am one of those that wants to know every last detail becuase i don't liek to do anything on a guess or for nothing.Example why would i equip a piece of gear if it won't do anyhthing?

FFXi is actually one of the most in depth stat game because you can exchange your entire gear set on the fly based on various situations.Many ga,mes won't even let you switch until afte the fight is over.

Most games really fool players with big numbers that are formulated down to very small numbers.They also like to use caps to protect themselves from sloppy gear designs.

Personally i prefer mechanics and abilities/spells over stats,but even then those mehcanics are based again on stats.

One thing i cannot stand is parsers,anyone using those drive me nuts.

SuperXero89 · November 2011

Actually, it really irritates me when a game lets me freely distribute my stat points without telling me what any stat point actually does for my character. Secondly, I've never been a big fan of too many stats, again especially in games where I freely distribute them or in games that require me to gem/enchant armor. Unless every stat is beneficial to my character, I feel like the developers are purposefully trying to gimp me. You might play a game where you have 5 essential stats, but you may gimp yourself unless you pump almost every point into one stat all because endgame gear for your class lacks significant gains in that stat. How would you know that as a newbie? You better hope your game gives you stat respecs.

Like most people, I want to be the best at what I chose to do in a game. In the case of WoW, that's ranged DPS. The reason I keep coming back to WoW over the other games is because it's so easy to figure out how to do the most DPS. I look at it like most situations in real life. In real life, we're almost always looking for the shortest point between A and B. Sure, we could drive all over the neighborhood to check out the Christmas lights on our way to Wal-Mart, but we're mostly too busy to do that on a regular basis, so we take the shortest route possible. That's how I like playing my games.

Doesn't mean I'm a power gamer or that I rush through content. It just means that I don't want to waste a lot of time experimenting and number crunching on the way to learning how to play my class.

Disdena · November 2011

I'm a bit divided on this issue. On the one hand, having a firm understanding of how the game's formulas work can certainly be considered a form of skill. If you figure out that increasing your armor by 10 makes you survive longer than increasing your HP by 100, then you're going to be a better tank than the people who don't know that. And the only way you're going to gain that advantage is if there's no giant glowing tooltip that says "This Reinforced Coif is a better item than your Juggernaut Cap". So it's better for the game to leave the nitty-gritty calculations to the people who want to reach the highest level of mathematical perfection.

It also leaves room for people to be... how can I put this... "creative but wrong". Like a caster who always casts elemental debuffs before casting elemental nukes, believing that his overall damage output ends up being higher than just spamming the nukes. It's totally possible that the highest mage DPS comes from forgetting about those spells and only casting the damaging ones. But it's somehow better if people can have their own (wrong) way and believe that their strategy is superior even when the formulas prove them to be flat-out wrong.

On the other hand, being vague about stats can lead to infuriating cases where the general hint that you're given about the stat's usefulness is incorrect. For example, the manual or character creation screen says that AGI increases your hit chance with ranged weapons, when it really has no effect. Or CHR affects the duration of your CC spells, when it actually does not.

AlBQuirky · November 2011

Definitely NOT knowing is the choice for me. Knowing just the basics is fine by me. I'm not a number cruncher and build my characters based on concepts, not stats.

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