You want a sense of danger? You want a sense of realism? Go stroll out in traffic in real life. That's dangerous and real enough for you.
A game is meant to be where people want to have fun. No one where people get frustrated by all their stuff being taken away because some one wants to exercise their power over some one in a game. No one wants that, not even the people who say they want full loot PVP.
Don't give me the BS excuse that it gives it a sense of danger and realism. We all know you just want to be a big man over some little guy. You want full loot PVP to have power over people.
i just reread, (quickly) most of the posts on this topic, and no one said it was for the realism, or sence of danger
most of the arguments are risk management and the thrill of the possibility to loose everything
a game is made to have fun... right, whats the fun if you can't lose. you know you are going to win no matter what.
you are probably one of those kids who used the (up up down down left right left right A B select Start) to get god mode and then say that you finished the game
most of the players in the full loot pvp will ignore the little man trying to make a living and instead go out in full glory trying to invade 1/2 the continent.
also you think that you will never get to use that uber sword of god slaying because its to valuable, the way the economy is made, when you are ready to use that sword will be when you can replace it with ease, so yes it will be gathering dust for a while, but at some point you will be able to get 12 of them just by blinking
in eve online, people still fly titans into PVP and sometimes more than 1, capital ships are a common thing in 0.0 space. people lose them, rage quit for a couple of hours and then come back online and hop into their spare capital ship and a few hours later they are back where they left off.
i thought the same thing, why would anyone fly such an expensive ship into pvp, couple of months later, im flying a 1 billion isk ship into pvp for the lolz
we want to play a game where there are winners and loosers, i dont give a shit about the "the important thing is that you participated, so every one gets a medal"
I personally haven't played full lot PvP, and I don't think I would. The frustration of losing everything would far outweigh any fun I might get in such a game. So, I would pass on that type of game.
How many time you think it takes to get a good set of armor in a full loot game? None of them are rare. You can buy everything in these games and they are cheap enough to keep up. Also, most full loot game are not heavily gear base. The best armor are slightly better then the common ones in these games, so you never lose much when you die.
Lastly, dont be a lone wolf in a sandbox if you dont want to work too hard on your own just to lose everything after. These games are mostly about team work in all aspect.
I personally haven't played full lot PvP, and I don't think I would. The frustration of losing everything would far outweigh any fun I might get in such a game. So, I would pass on that type of game.
How many time you think it takes to get a good set of armor in a full loot game? None of them are rare. You can buy everything in these games and they are cheap enough to keep up. Also, most full loot game are not heavily gear base. The best armor are slightly better then the common ones in these games, so you never lose much when you die.
Lastly, dont be a lone wolf in a sandbox if you dont want to work too hard on your own just to lose everything after. These games are mostly about team work in all aspect.
So, you can only log in when the rest of your gang is available? What this usualy breaks down to is roving gangs, ganking/griefing anyone who isn't in an even bigger gang. That has limited appeal to most people, and tends to get old fast.
For me, playing with full loot or at least partial loot is the only kind of playing that gets me excited. I've played EVE a lot; 99% of time it was me who was ganked. I was flying tranports full of freakishly expensive goodies through bookmarks' trails when EVE still had them, pursued by bunch of bandits, not able to even shot back; only precision, quality of my bookmarks and luck were on my side. That was AWESOME! Excitement, danger, heart beating hard! My, when I finished the run, I was exhausted; it took me some days usually to calm down enough to start another run.
That's obviously not for everyone. But certainly not "only griefers" like full loot. As I pointed out, I was killed 99 times out of 100, and yet it's the only kind of pvp that excites me.
Certainly it feels good to feel that your opponent has actually lost something in the fight; but I lose much more often than my opponents, and yet it was good playing.
Oh, and when I was losing stuff, the equivalent of "Awesome Sword of Awesomeness", sure, it was "damn! Damn! That was a COOL sword!", but it never "hit" me emotionally harder than a passing regret. My goal in games is not "to grind gear", I have no interest in "cool gear" at all. In fact, when I hear about people "grinding raids for violets", I think they are insane. I would never do it - what's for? To get that violet so you could grind raids farther for more violets? That's insane.
Originally posted by Wraithone Originally posted by Realbigdeal
Originally posted by worldalpha
I personally haven't played full lot PvP, and I don't think I would. The frustration of losing everything would far outweigh any fun I might get in such a game. So, I would pass on that type of game.
How many time you think it takes to get a good set of armor in a full loot game? None of them are rare. You can buy everything in these games and they are cheap enough to keep up. Also, most full loot game are not heavily gear base. The best armor are slightly better then the common ones in these games, so you never lose much when you die. Lastly, dont be a lone wolf in a sandbox if you dont want to work too hard on your own just to lose everything after. These games are mostly about team work in all aspect.
So, you can only log in when the rest of your gang is available? What this usualy breaks down to is roving gangs, ganking/griefing anyone who isn't in an even bigger gang. That has limited appeal to most people, and tends to get old fast.
That is 100% the developer's fault. If you don't give people enough to do, they will start going on a rampage to alleviate boredom. You won't eliminate the rover gangs of marauders because sometimes people just want to do that. But you will have fewer marauders and something more in the game that makes the game worthwhile.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
The biggest problem I see with Full Loot systems is that it rewards the griefer, while punishing the normal player. Generally I think it should be the other way around. The most telling factor there is if a game features PvP, even if you had a separate full loot server, there are going to be some very vocal players about how the game needs to be full loot. If they can have full loot on their own server, why should they care about the other servers they aren't playing on? Because griefers get most of their enjoyment on ruining the day of casual players. In a multi-server setup the casual guys will play on the no loot servers, and only the hardcore players who enjoy full loot will play on those servers. Which kills the thrill for them.
That having been said, I've played several full loot games that were enjoyable. Most notably Ultima Online.
I'm sure pvp is very important to some people tho most people avoid games that focus tomuch on pvp,there are some games outhere for those that like this kind of games.
It was alright for a few months in UO as even when I was killed over half the time in my experience they gave you some of the stuff back and did not camp you fast forward to Shadowbane and now it seems the world is flooded with psychopathic inmates hell bent and ruining the game for everyone.
Full loot appeals to those who enjoy gambling and the cat 'n' mouse game that is inevitably involved with it. Without it, they don't get their rush from PvP.
This is the way I see it.
After playing Eve with the thrill of potentially losing hundreds of millions (even billions when caps are involved) of ISK in one fight, how could I go back to other games?
I love the quote from the movie Rounders, "You can't lose what you don't put in the middle, but you can't win much either".
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
For me, playing with full loot or at least partial loot is the only kind of playing that gets me excited. I've played EVE a lot; 99% of time it was me who was ganked. I was flying tranports full of freakishly expensive goodies through bookmarks' trails when EVE still had them, pursued by bunch of bandits, not able to even shot back; only precision, quality of my bookmarks and luck were on my side. That was AWESOME! Excitement, danger, heart beating hard! My, when I finished the run, I was exhausted; it took me some days usually to calm down enough to start another run.
That's obviously not for everyone. But certainly not "only griefers" like full loot. As I pointed out, I was killed 99 times out of 100, and yet it's the only kind of pvp that excites me.
Certainly it feels good to feel that your opponent has actually lost something in the fight; but I lose much more often than my opponents, and yet it was good playing.
Oh, and when I was losing stuff, the equivalent of "Awesome Sword of Awesomeness", sure, it was "damn! Damn! That was a COOL sword!", but it never "hit" me emotionally harder than a passing regret. My goal in games is not "to grind gear", I have no interest in "cool gear" at all. In fact, when I hear about people "grinding raids for violets", I think they are insane. I would never do it - what's for? To get that violet so you could grind raids farther for more violets? That's insane.
But hey, to everyone his own.
Partial looting is very exiting, I agree with that. It works fine in MMOs.
Full loot on the other hand really only works in games that either have perma death or close to no focus on gear whatsoever.
Most MMOs have a rather high focus on gear, and losing every gear you have on you every time you get killed just doesn't work, it takes most MMO players months to get good gear in them.
MMOs that are close to the classic Warhammer tabletop and P&P RGPs which focus on attributes and skills and only have some basic armor, like a single type of chainmail and so on.
The right kind of looting mechanics for the right kind of game, anything else is just a disaster.
And many people talking about realism when they talk about full looting, I would love to see those people carryying weapons, gear and other junk that other players carrying. Any looting system is only realistic in a game with realistic carrying capacity.
Ever played poker? Try to play it with and without money involved and you'll realise the difference between full loot PvP and normal (aka boring as shit) PvP.
Not even comparable. In poker you play and can win against whole table and odds are same for all . That is not case in MMOs - in open world PvP - not even close. Full loot PvP has its appeal mainly for ppl playing stealth/invisble characters or who run gank squads that ussualy beat other by outnumbering them - fair game ? LOL. What it has in common with poker ? NOTHING.
I love risks in poker but full loot in mmo has exactly zero appeal to me.
His comparison is valid as he is comparing the difference between zero loss and possible scenarios, not in how the game itself is played. If you're playing poker in a bar for fake money, you'll have more people betting crazy or going all inbecause they are risking nothing. Offer a $20 bar tab and you'll notice a difference in how people are playing. Make it real money and you'll notice a big difference.
I'm sorry that getting rolled by a pack of rogues in a video game has affected you so, but that really has nothing to do with what busdriver is talking about.
You know u all speak how full loot is awesome becouse it's risk for both sides and how it makes your adrenaline goes high. But fact is there are mutltiple ways how in mmo avoid the risk side (and fans of full loot ussualy completly ignore this kind of counter argument) and get only profit. Thats why it is not viable for any mainstream mmo and thats why it's not comparable with poker.
Full Loot PvP games aren't solo friendly, bring friends next time and you will make it more risky for the attackers as well. Your argument goes both ways.
It's not about solo play. Propoments of full loot always speak about how it is risk for both sides and ignore loopholes which alow to either completly avoid any risk or at least minimalizing it. And then even compare it with poker, i mean it's totaly laughable ... There is a reason why poker is played by milions of people for money and why full loot even though u dont loose real money is still only small niche of genre.
What's wrong with minimizing risk? That's how the game is supposed to be played. For instance, in Eve, if you don't want to lose your shirt when you get popped then fly a small cheap ship. If you want to play solo then have at it. But don't get mad when your opponent comes better equipped and with a larger force.
The same idea holds true for poker, it's your option to bet small and minimize your loses but you can't get mad when your opponent raises and you don't want to risk calling.
The original poker analogy is completely valid.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
You want a sense of danger? You want a sense of realism? Go stroll out in traffic in real life. That's dangerous and real enough for you.
A game is meant to be where people want to have fun. No one where people get frustrated by all their stuff being taken away because some one wants to exercise their power over some one in a game. No one wants that, not even the people who say they want full loot PVP.
Don't give me the BS excuse that it gives it a sense of danger and realism. We all know you just want to be a big man over some little guy. You want full loot PVP to have power over people.
Are you for real? You do realize it's only a game (I hope).
Making analogies to playing traffic is silly at best.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
Full loot PVP is only for sadists and masochists. Well that is a mature way of looking at things. At least you're not generalizing too much here
You want a sense of danger? You want a sense of realism? Go stroll out in traffic in real life. That's dangerous and real enough for you. What if I like those sensations in a video game? Who are you to tell me I need to go risk my life in order to experience that? Get a fucking grip.
A game is meant to be where people want to have fun. And that's what many of us do in a full loot PVP game, bud. Duh. No one where people get frustrated by all their stuff being taken away because some one wants to exercise their power over some one in a game. No one wants that, not even the people who say they want full loot PVP. Yes, some people like this for many different reasons. Speak for yourself, Azure. Don't even begin to try and tell me what I want.
Don't give me the BS excuse that it gives it a sense of danger and realism. That's one of the many reasons (main one for me) that people enjoy full loot PVP. When there is little risk I tend to yawn and mutter to myself "what's the point of this" and log out permanently. We all know you just want to be a big man over some little guy. You want full loot PVP to have power over people. This says more about you than anything else. Congratulations on one helluva beauty of a post Good luck in life, Azure
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
You want a sense of danger? You want a sense of realism? Go stroll out in traffic in real life. That's dangerous and real enough for you.
A game is meant to be where people want to have fun. No one where people get frustrated by all their stuff being taken away because some one wants to exercise their power over some one in a game. No one wants that, not even the people who say they want full loot PVP.
Don't give me the BS excuse that it gives it a sense of danger and realism. We all know you just want to be a big man over some little guy. You want full loot PVP to have power over people.
i just reread, (quickly) most of the posts on this topic, and no one said it was for the realism, or sence of danger
most of the arguments are risk management and the thrill of the possibility to loose everything
a game is made to have fun... right, whats the fun if you can't lose. you know you are going to win no matter what.
you are probably one of those kids who used the (up up down down left right left right A B select Start) to get god mode and then say that you finished the game
most of the players in the full loot pvp will ignore the little man trying to make a living and instead go out in full glory trying to invade 1/2 the continent.
also you think that you will never get to use that uber sword of god slaying because its to valuable, the way the economy is made, when you are ready to use that sword will be when you can replace it with ease, so yes it will be gathering dust for a while, but at some point you will be able to get 12 of them just by blinking
in eve online, people still fly titans into PVP and sometimes more than 1, capital ships are a common thing in 0.0 space. people lose them, rage quit for a couple of hours and then come back online and hop into their spare capital ship and a few hours later they are back where they left off.
i thought the same thing, why would anyone fly such an expensive ship into pvp, couple of months later, im flying a 1 billion isk ship into pvp for the lolz
we want to play a game where there are winners and loosers, i dont give a shit about the "the important thing is that you participated, so every one gets a medal"
THAT! is the horseshit you guys play.
ill stick real gaming.
Agreed 110%.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
Full loot appeals to those who enjoy gambling and the cat 'n' mouse game that is inevitably involved with it. Without it, they don't get their rush from PvP.
This is the way I see it.
After playing Eve with the thrill of potentially losing hundreds of millions (even billions when caps are involved) of ISK in one fight, how could I go back to other games?
I love the quote from the movie Rounders, "You can't lose what you don't put in the middle, but you can't win much either".
That's kind of a weird movie to use as an example. In the beginning Mike bets everything he owns on a game with KGB and the loss makes his life miserable for most of the movie. Worm's reckless gambling and unnecessary risk taking causes them to lose all the money they worked so hard to win in previous matches. The only reason Mike does not end up dead at the end of the movie is because he lucks out twice in a row. Mike is such a good poker player specificly because he knows when to take a risk and when to fold. The reckless Worm is shown to be a degenerate gambler who needs to cheat to win.
Ultimately Mike is a gamer and not just a gambler. He makes the big bets not out of a misguided thrill of losing everything but becuase he want to prove that he is up to the challenge of beating the top players. His thrill comes from beating KGB and the world champion and his initial failure to beat KGB destroyed him. He got no thrill from betting and losing $30,000.
Full loot appeals to those who enjoy gambling and the cat 'n' mouse game that is inevitably involved with it. Without it, they don't get their rush from PvP.
This is the way I see it.
After playing Eve with the thrill of potentially losing hundreds of millions (even billions when caps are involved) of ISK in one fight, how could I go back to other games?
I love the quote from the movie Rounders, "You can't lose what you don't put in the middle, but you can't win much either".
That's kind of a weird movie to use as an example. In the beginning Mike bets everything he owns on a game with KGB and the loss makes his life miserable for most of the movie. Worm's reckless gambling and unnecessary risk taking causes them to lose all the money they worked so hard to win in previous matches. The only reason Mike does not end up dead at the end of the movie is because he lucks out twice in a row. Mike is such a good poker player specificly because he knows when to take a risk and when to fold. The reckless Worm is shown to be a degenerate gambler who needs to cheat to win.
Ultimately Mike is a gamer and not just a gambler. He makes the big bets not out of a misguided thrill of losing everything but becuase he want to prove that he is up to the challenge of beating the top players. His thrill comes from beating KGB and the world champion and his initial failure to beat KGB destroyed him. He got no thrill from betting and losing $30,000.
I wasn't using the theme of the movie as an analogy, I'm simply using one quote. Also we're not talking about real money or ruining anyones life, we're discussing video games here. Let's keep things in perspective.
PvP is not fun or exciting for me if there is no risk or potential for loss.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
Full loot appeals to those who enjoy gambling and the cat 'n' mouse game that is inevitably involved with it. Without it, they don't get their rush from PvP.
This is the way I see it.
After playing Eve with the thrill of potentially losing hundreds of millions (even billions when caps are involved) of ISK in one fight, how could I go back to other games?
I love the quote from the movie Rounders, "You can't lose what you don't put in the middle, but you can't win much either".
Depends on the game really, the problem today is that all the mmo are heavily item based. Items cost a fortune and have high value ingame. But in Uo for example equipment was super cheap, you just had to learn to go bank often during your pve session and in pvp dying really didn't cost you much, the only valuable stuff was the ingredient for magic. In lineage 2 your weapon cost a fortune, almost all the cash you made in game from the beginning, and you had to sell your old weapon to be able to afford the next one, so dropping it as a red (only criminal had dropping loot at death) meant basically you had to reroll or you had to RMT. In Eve its a bit of mix of those if you roll in cheap ships or big ones, if you have no implant or loads of.
I agree with some others here that there tends to be a little too much hand-holding of players in some games' pvp, but I'm not a big fan of full-looting myself. Pve is usually the least attractive part of an mmo to me, and replacing money and loot lost at every death usually just means more pve to replace them.
There is nothing difficult to understand about this. The appeal to a game that has full pvp loot is simple. A lot of people are tired of the cookie cutter player friendly games out there now'a days. It's nice to be rewarded for something you do in a game other than raids, party events, and other crap like that.
Also it's not ALWAYS about who has the bigger "gang" Back in my days of playing Ultima Online there would be groups of 5-6 guys trying to kill me for my stuff, and I would destroy them all. By the time they came back with a bigger party I was already on my boat and they were staring at me waving to them saying "Better Luck Next Time Fella's"
A game that has less restrictions on the players allows you to role play much more than in modern games. For instance... World of Warcraft... Probably the biggest dissapointment in MMO history from my standpoint. This game made every game on the market aim for that style. There was nothing different for years after. It was all about parties, and raids, and getting the armor that made YOU better than EVERYONE around you.
Full Loot games put everyone on the same level and makes games more skill focused rather than item focused.
It blows though because now game companies coddle players and make everything easy because if they don't new generation gamers bitch and moan about how they just lost their armor and have to get it back now. Cry Cry Cry
Plus usually in Full Loot games there are precautions you can take to not getting your items stolen. Their are banks, chests, houses, and a variety of different other steps you can take to make sure you still have things left over if you are killed and looted. People are just too stupid to put their valubles away so they have something left over to buy new equipment with if they are killed and get looted.
I haven't read the entire thread but this has probably already been posted but anyway..
It's a diffrent mindset, in games like wow gear is the endgoal, the game is designed around you continually improving your characters gear for ever (or until they stop making new raids) and that is more or less the entire drive of the game. Each good item is usually pretty hard to get and takes time to aquire so you feel good when you finally get it another important thing to note is that there tends to be a progression IE you need item X before you can get item Y otherwise it will be to hard to defeat the boss. Having full loot while designing your game like this will ensure it's death.
You need a different mindset for full loot, that is gear is not the endgoal but an means to an end usually meta game war politics. Gear is usually easier to get and if there are rare items they don't tend to be "godlike" but just a minor boost over what everyone else is using. The drive of the game is not to equip your character to the max (altough a player can certainly have that as a goal but this is usually the case of entering the game with the wrong mindset(a traditional geargrind one) and quickly quitting) but to do other things which better gear tends to help with but isn't necessarily required.
Personally I think I'm themepark damaged (started with wow and played it for a total of 4-5 years) and can not truly get out of the former mindset, so I can't really enjoy full loot.
I think the point is these ffa loot all are designed around the fact that gear doesnt matter as much and the whole point of the game is pvp and politics. they should not revolve around pve games like wow where there is gear progress and the fact that you spend hours of grinding to get the gear.
you don't need to do full loot, just partial loot. Asheron's Call did it right when you died, and you lost 3 or so of your most expensive items. It also depends on your level, the higher lvl the more items you drop, the lower level, the less items. This made it exciting and a sense of danger. Death Items becamse a popular thing so when you died you would drop these higher value items, and they were fun to collect and keep to protect you from dropping your good armor and weapons. MIss that damn game !
I'm curious as to what makes this appealing to some people.
From my perspective, it sounds like it would be a real pain in the arse. You spend 'X' amount of hours crafting/finding "gear", someone/something kills you, you die, and someone takes all your stuff. Making the time you put into getting your "gear" useless.
Now, I know people say in these types of games to "only use what you can afford to lose." But, what then is the point to get anything better? If there's an "Epic Sword of Uber Doom" or a "Super Ship of Mega Awesomeness", that take days/weeks/months to aqquire, what's the point if you're never going to use it, or risk losing it if you do?
All that said, I could be looking at this all wrong and am just missing the point. But from where I'm standing, it seems like a huge time waster.
Thoughts?
-Z
If you really want to understand the appeal of something like that, go play a roguelike game. You can spend hours/days working your way through the game, building up your character, and then one careless momemt and BAM. You're dead. Game over and you need to start from scratch. You would think that would become frustrating but the reality is it makes it so much more fun. You need the game to be designed with lots of replayability though for this to work...
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind" 1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN 2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
Comments
I want my PvP to have consequences.
That was the easiest answer I've had to give all week.
i just reread, (quickly) most of the posts on this topic, and no one said it was for the realism, or sence of danger
most of the arguments are risk management and the thrill of the possibility to loose everything
a game is made to have fun... right, whats the fun if you can't lose. you know you are going to win no matter what.
you are probably one of those kids who used the (up up down down left right left right A B select Start) to get god mode and then say that you finished the game
most of the players in the full loot pvp will ignore the little man trying to make a living and instead go out in full glory trying to invade 1/2 the continent.
also you think that you will never get to use that uber sword of god slaying because its to valuable, the way the economy is made, when you are ready to use that sword will be when you can replace it with ease, so yes it will be gathering dust for a while, but at some point you will be able to get 12 of them just by blinking
in eve online, people still fly titans into PVP and sometimes more than 1, capital ships are a common thing in 0.0 space. people lose them, rage quit for a couple of hours and then come back online and hop into their spare capital ship and a few hours later they are back where they left off.
i thought the same thing, why would anyone fly such an expensive ship into pvp, couple of months later, im flying a 1 billion isk ship into pvp for the lolz
we want to play a game where there are winners and loosers, i dont give a shit about the "the important thing is that you participated, so every one gets a medal"
THAT! is the horseshit you guys play.
ill stick real gaming.
How many time you think it takes to get a good set of armor in a full loot game? None of them are rare. You can buy everything in these games and they are cheap enough to keep up. Also, most full loot game are not heavily gear base. The best armor are slightly better then the common ones in these games, so you never lose much when you die.
Lastly, dont be a lone wolf in a sandbox if you dont want to work too hard on your own just to lose everything after. These games are mostly about team work in all aspect.
C:\Users\FF\Desktop\spin move.gif
So, you can only log in when the rest of your gang is available? What this usualy breaks down to is roving gangs, ganking/griefing anyone who isn't in an even bigger gang. That has limited appeal to most people, and tends to get old fast.
For me, playing with full loot or at least partial loot is the only kind of playing that gets me excited. I've played EVE a lot; 99% of time it was me who was ganked. I was flying tranports full of freakishly expensive goodies through bookmarks' trails when EVE still had them, pursued by bunch of bandits, not able to even shot back; only precision, quality of my bookmarks and luck were on my side. That was AWESOME! Excitement, danger, heart beating hard! My, when I finished the run, I was exhausted; it took me some days usually to calm down enough to start another run.
That's obviously not for everyone. But certainly not "only griefers" like full loot. As I pointed out, I was killed 99 times out of 100, and yet it's the only kind of pvp that excites me.
Certainly it feels good to feel that your opponent has actually lost something in the fight; but I lose much more often than my opponents, and yet it was good playing.
Oh, and when I was losing stuff, the equivalent of "Awesome Sword of Awesomeness", sure, it was "damn! Damn! That was a COOL sword!", but it never "hit" me emotionally harder than a passing regret. My goal in games is not "to grind gear", I have no interest in "cool gear" at all. In fact, when I hear about people "grinding raids for violets", I think they are insane. I would never do it - what's for? To get that violet so you could grind raids farther for more violets? That's insane.
But hey, to everyone his own.
Lastly, dont be a lone wolf in a sandbox if you dont want to work too hard on your own just to lose everything after. These games are mostly about team work in all aspect.
So, you can only log in when the rest of your gang is available? What this usualy breaks down to is roving gangs, ganking/griefing anyone who isn't in an even bigger gang. That has limited appeal to most people, and tends to get old fast.
That is 100% the developer's fault. If you don't give people enough to do, they will start going on a rampage to alleviate boredom. You won't eliminate the rover gangs of marauders because sometimes people just want to do that. But you will have fewer marauders and something more in the game that makes the game worthwhile.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
The biggest problem I see with Full Loot systems is that it rewards the griefer, while punishing the normal player. Generally I think it should be the other way around. The most telling factor there is if a game features PvP, even if you had a separate full loot server, there are going to be some very vocal players about how the game needs to be full loot. If they can have full loot on their own server, why should they care about the other servers they aren't playing on? Because griefers get most of their enjoyment on ruining the day of casual players. In a multi-server setup the casual guys will play on the no loot servers, and only the hardcore players who enjoy full loot will play on those servers. Which kills the thrill for them.
That having been said, I've played several full loot games that were enjoyable. Most notably Ultima Online.
https://www.therepopulation.com - Sci Fi Sandbox.
I'm sure pvp is very important to some people tho most people avoid games that focus tomuch on pvp,there are some games outhere for those that like this kind of games.
It was alright for a few months in UO as even when I was killed over half the time in my experience they gave you some of the stuff back and did not camp you fast forward to Shadowbane and now it seems the world is flooded with psychopathic inmates hell bent and ruining the game for everyone.
This is the way I see it.
After playing Eve with the thrill of potentially losing hundreds of millions (even billions when caps are involved) of ISK in one fight, how could I go back to other games?
I love the quote from the movie Rounders, "You can't lose what you don't put in the middle, but you can't win much either".
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
Partial looting is very exiting, I agree with that. It works fine in MMOs.
Full loot on the other hand really only works in games that either have perma death or close to no focus on gear whatsoever.
Most MMOs have a rather high focus on gear, and losing every gear you have on you every time you get killed just doesn't work, it takes most MMO players months to get good gear in them.
MMOs that are close to the classic Warhammer tabletop and P&P RGPs which focus on attributes and skills and only have some basic armor, like a single type of chainmail and so on.
The right kind of looting mechanics for the right kind of game, anything else is just a disaster.
And many people talking about realism when they talk about full looting, I would love to see those people carryying weapons, gear and other junk that other players carrying. Any looting system is only realistic in a game with realistic carrying capacity.
What's wrong with minimizing risk? That's how the game is supposed to be played. For instance, in Eve, if you don't want to lose your shirt when you get popped then fly a small cheap ship. If you want to play solo then have at it. But don't get mad when your opponent comes better equipped and with a larger force.
The same idea holds true for poker, it's your option to bet small and minimize your loses but you can't get mad when your opponent raises and you don't want to risk calling.
The original poker analogy is completely valid.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
Are you for real? You do realize it's only a game (I hope).
Making analogies to playing traffic is silly at best.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Agreed 110%.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
That's kind of a weird movie to use as an example. In the beginning Mike bets everything he owns on a game with KGB and the loss makes his life miserable for most of the movie. Worm's reckless gambling and unnecessary risk taking causes them to lose all the money they worked so hard to win in previous matches. The only reason Mike does not end up dead at the end of the movie is because he lucks out twice in a row. Mike is such a good poker player specificly because he knows when to take a risk and when to fold. The reckless Worm is shown to be a degenerate gambler who needs to cheat to win.
Ultimately Mike is a gamer and not just a gambler. He makes the big bets not out of a misguided thrill of losing everything but becuase he want to prove that he is up to the challenge of beating the top players. His thrill comes from beating KGB and the world champion and his initial failure to beat KGB destroyed him. He got no thrill from betting and losing $30,000.
I wasn't using the theme of the movie as an analogy, I'm simply using one quote. Also we're not talking about real money or ruining anyones life, we're discussing video games here. Let's keep things in perspective.
PvP is not fun or exciting for me if there is no risk or potential for loss.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
Depends on the game really, the problem today is that all the mmo are heavily item based. Items cost a fortune and have high value ingame. But in Uo for example equipment was super cheap, you just had to learn to go bank often during your pve session and in pvp dying really didn't cost you much, the only valuable stuff was the ingredient for magic. In lineage 2 your weapon cost a fortune, almost all the cash you made in game from the beginning, and you had to sell your old weapon to be able to afford the next one, so dropping it as a red (only criminal had dropping loot at death) meant basically you had to reroll or you had to RMT. In Eve its a bit of mix of those if you roll in cheap ships or big ones, if you have no implant or loads of.
So really, it depend how the game is designed.
I agree with some others here that there tends to be a little too much hand-holding of players in some games' pvp, but I'm not a big fan of full-looting myself. Pve is usually the least attractive part of an mmo to me, and replacing money and loot lost at every death usually just means more pve to replace them.
There is nothing difficult to understand about this. The appeal to a game that has full pvp loot is simple. A lot of people are tired of the cookie cutter player friendly games out there now'a days. It's nice to be rewarded for something you do in a game other than raids, party events, and other crap like that.
Also it's not ALWAYS about who has the bigger "gang" Back in my days of playing Ultima Online there would be groups of 5-6 guys trying to kill me for my stuff, and I would destroy them all. By the time they came back with a bigger party I was already on my boat and they were staring at me waving to them saying "Better Luck Next Time Fella's"
A game that has less restrictions on the players allows you to role play much more than in modern games. For instance... World of Warcraft... Probably the biggest dissapointment in MMO history from my standpoint. This game made every game on the market aim for that style. There was nothing different for years after. It was all about parties, and raids, and getting the armor that made YOU better than EVERYONE around you.
Full Loot games put everyone on the same level and makes games more skill focused rather than item focused.
It blows though because now game companies coddle players and make everything easy because if they don't new generation gamers bitch and moan about how they just lost their armor and have to get it back now. Cry Cry Cry
Plus usually in Full Loot games there are precautions you can take to not getting your items stolen. Their are banks, chests, houses, and a variety of different other steps you can take to make sure you still have things left over if you are killed and looted. People are just too stupid to put their valubles away so they have something left over to buy new equipment with if they are killed and get looted.
A side topic on this, I heard it often when UO made pve server, many player get upset and says it breaks the community.
Here's the thing, there's obviously people that don't want to play on a pvp server so why force them.
I haven't read the entire thread but this has probably already been posted but anyway..
It's a diffrent mindset, in games like wow gear is the endgoal, the game is designed around you continually improving your characters gear for ever (or until they stop making new raids) and that is more or less the entire drive of the game. Each good item is usually pretty hard to get and takes time to aquire so you feel good when you finally get it another important thing to note is that there tends to be a progression IE you need item X before you can get item Y otherwise it will be to hard to defeat the boss. Having full loot while designing your game like this will ensure it's death.
You need a different mindset for full loot, that is gear is not the endgoal but an means to an end usually meta game war politics. Gear is usually easier to get and if there are rare items they don't tend to be "godlike" but just a minor boost over what everyone else is using. The drive of the game is not to equip your character to the max (altough a player can certainly have that as a goal but this is usually the case of entering the game with the wrong mindset(a traditional geargrind one) and quickly quitting) but to do other things which better gear tends to help with but isn't necessarily required.
Personally I think I'm themepark damaged (started with wow and played it for a total of 4-5 years) and can not truly get out of the former mindset, so I can't really enjoy full loot.
you don't need to do full loot, just partial loot. Asheron's Call did it right when you died, and you lost 3 or so of your most expensive items. It also depends on your level, the higher lvl the more items you drop, the lower level, the less items. This made it exciting and a sense of danger. Death Items becamse a popular thing so when you died you would drop these higher value items, and they were fun to collect and keep to protect you from dropping your good armor and weapons. MIss that damn game !
If you really want to understand the appeal of something like that, go play a roguelike game. You can spend hours/days working your way through the game, building up your character, and then one careless momemt and BAM. You're dead. Game over and you need to start from scratch. You would think that would become frustrating but the reality is it makes it so much more fun. You need the game to be designed with lots of replayability though for this to work...
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements