I would for example make a WOW server with only the following differences from an ordinary PVE server:
1. no battlegrounds
2. all dungeons are not instanced
3. full loot PVP
The adrenaline rush on this server would be very high and the cooperation between players would also be very high. It would be a very very interesting server.
You can make the game as hardcore you want. If your still getting gear by conventional means in WOW, your going to be faced with players that will loose full suits of armor & weapons that could have taken months to get. Now they can't raid to recoup their gear they need to PvP because Raid Bosses require you have HIGH end gear to fight them.
Now that's what I'm talking about - can you imagine a bigger adrenaline rush?
Right about now, I'm wondering how many of the open-world, full-loot pvp advocates are the ones always running around in ninja mode -- no weapons and no armor at all, except after they've looted a victim.
The ones in Darkfall.
An enemy in UO without gear is either a recently resurrected enemy or an enemy that's about to rob you and run for his life.
An enemy in EVE without gear is a frozen corpse.
An enemy in Shadowbane without gear is not much of a threat because a) he's very vulnerable in that state and b) the servers haven't been on for at least two years.
An enemy in Puzzle Pirates without gear doesn't exist becase everyone gets a freebie stick. NOTE: Never under-estimate the guy with the stick.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I would for example make a WOW server with only the following differences from an ordinary PVE server:
1. no battlegrounds
2. all dungeons are not instanced
3. full loot PVP
The adrenaline rush on this server would be very high and the cooperation between players would also be very high. It would be a very very interesting server.
You can make the game as hardcore you want. If your still getting gear by conventional means in WOW, your going to be faced with players that will loose full suits of armor & weapons that could have taken months to get. Now they can't raid to recoup their gear they need to PvP because Raid Bosses require you have HIGH end gear to fight them.
Now that's what I'm talking about - can you imagine a bigger adrenaline rush?
Yes, I can imagine plenty bigger rushes than having to regularly cease my PVP fun to go grind some PvE dungeon with a bunch of elitist control-freak raiding pricks.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Right about now, I'm wondering how many of the open-world, full-loot pvp advocates are the ones always running around in ninja mode -- no weapons and no armor at all, except after they've looted a victim.
No thanks.
Mendel...
There is a "karma system" in most of these Free For All games. I can only speak to Ultima Online....yes, there were some scavengers that would hang around fights......but looting a corpse that you didn't kill (or delt the majority of the damage to) would have turned you into a criminal and temporarily flagged you open for PvP for up to 2 minutes of without commiting another crime.
So if someone started looting a body that you killed, that someone would flag open for combat and would be a sitting duck to the person still standing. They can't put up much of a fight without armor, weapon, potions, bandages, etc. In my experience, not many of these "ninjas" get away with the crime.
I was more worried about the fighters running around without anything at all and using hand-to-hand / unarmed attacks. Maybe 'Ninja' wasn't the best choice of words, as that is easily confused with 'ninja looting'. Try the same sentiment with 'Monk' instead. These 'naked' players circumvent the spirit of risk and reward by minimizing their own risk (nothing to be lost by someone looting them). Ultima had a vast number of them, including the beta 'pantless raid' (which I missed by a couple of days).
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Right about now, I'm wondering how many of the open-world, full-loot pvp advocates are the ones always running around in ninja mode -- no weapons and no armor at all, except after they've looted a victim.
The ones in Darkfall.
An enemy in UO without gear is either a recently resurrected enemy or an enemy that's about to rob you and run for his life.
An enemy in EVE without gear is a frozen corpse.
An enemy in Shadowbane without gear is not much of a threat because a) he's very vulnerable in that state and b) the servers haven't been on for at least two years.
An enemy in Puzzle Pirates without gear doesn't exist becase everyone gets a freebie stick. NOTE: Never under-estimate the guy with the stick.
Yeah Darkfall is kind of infamous for the near naked PK. Especially since it seemed like two near naked guys with maybe quasi-decent weapons or enough reags to cast a few spells could easily defeat a well equipped player. Especially if the near naked guys had high character skills.
UO wasn't as bad as DF but it did have this kind of thing before stat loss for reds. I know that whenever gankers would go out on "gank runs" they would just carry the gear they needed and nothing more, basically expecting to die. I also remember that REALLY early on in UO there was some crazy imbalance with magic arrow where these naked wizards were killing miners and crap with it.
Yes, I can imagine plenty bigger rushes than having to regularly cease my PVP fun to go grind some PvE dungeon with a bunch of elitist control-freak raiding pricks.
You don't have to grind PvE dungeons, you could just kill raiders of the opposite faction and get the gear.
Right about now, I'm wondering how many of the open-world, full-loot pvp advocates are the ones always running around in ninja mode -- no weapons and no armor at all, except after they've looted a victim.
The ones in Darkfall.
An enemy in UO without gear is either a recently resurrected enemy or an enemy that's about to rob you and run for his life.
An enemy in EVE without gear is a frozen corpse.
An enemy in Shadowbane without gear is not much of a threat because a) he's very vulnerable in that state and b) the servers haven't been on for at least two years.
An enemy in Puzzle Pirates without gear doesn't exist becase everyone gets a freebie stick. NOTE: Never under-estimate the guy with the stick.
Yeah Darkfall is kind of infamous for the near naked PK. Especially since it seemed like two near naked guys with maybe quasi-decent weapons or enough reags to cast a few spells could easily defeat a well equipped player. Especially if the near naked guys had high character skills.
UO wasn't as bad as DF but it did have this kind of thing before stat loss for reds. I know that whenever gankers would go out on "gank runs" they would just carry the gear they needed and nothing more, basically expecting to die. I also remember that REALLY early on in UO there was some crazy imbalance with magic arrow where these naked wizards were killing miners and crap with it.
Very true. Early UO had lots of overpowered nonsense at one point or another (lightning vs metal armor, harm wands, rapid fireballs) that allowed for rampant naked PKing. Good memory!
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Right about now, I'm wondering how many of the open-world, full-loot pvp advocates are the ones always running around in ninja mode -- no weapons and no armor at all, except after they've looted a victim.
No thanks.
Mendel...
There is a "karma system" in most of these Free For All games. I can only speak to Ultima Online....yes, there were some scavengers that would hang around fights......but looting a corpse that you didn't kill (or delt the majority of the damage to) would have turned you into a criminal and temporarily flagged you open for PvP for up to 2 minutes of without commiting another crime.
So if someone started looting a body that you killed, that someone would flag open for combat and would be a sitting duck to the person still standing. They can't put up much of a fight without armor, weapon, potions, bandages, etc. In my experience, not many of these "ninjas" get away with the crime.
I was more worried about the fighters running around without anything at all and using hand-to-hand / unarmed attacks. Maybe 'Ninja' wasn't the best choice of words, as that is easily confused with 'ninja looting'. Try the same sentiment with 'Monk' instead. These 'naked' players circumvent the spirit of risk and reward by minimizing their own risk (nothing to be lost by someone looting them). Ultima had a vast number of them, including the beta 'pantless raid' (which I missed by a couple of days).
I can't speak on Ultima Online's Beta...as I started the game in Rennisance, and ended with Age of Shadows. During that time, fighting unarmed as a warrior would pretty much mean that your dead. The only UO class types that really utilized unarmed combat were thieves to disarm, and mages to stun....but for special moves only, not sustainable (or even practicle) damage output.
Yes there are games with monk type classes that have the luxury of not needing a weapon....but I haven't seen a full loot game with that class makeup.
Full Loot isn't something you can just throw in any game to increase the stakes. The point I've been trying to make is, Full Loot works, so long as it doesn't completely handicap your character's ability to recoup their losses. You have to have supporting systems to make Full Loot practicle.....like a skill centered game, not gear centered....gear has to be affordable and easily aquirable. There has to be proper Karma system implemented. Its most certianly not a feature that you can implement wrecklessly.....but can lend to some positive intangible consequences.
I would for example make a WOW server with only the following differences from an ordinary PVE server:
1. no battlegrounds
2. all dungeons are not instanced
3. full loot PVP
The adrenaline rush on this server would be very high and the cooperation between players would also be very high. It would be a very very interesting server.
You can make the game as hardcore you want. If your still getting gear by conventional means in WOW, your going to be faced with players that will loose full suits of armor & weapons that could have taken months to get. Now they can't raid to recoup their gear they need to PvP because Raid Bosses require you have HIGH end gear to fight them.
Now that's what I'm talking about - can you imagine a bigger adrenaline rush?
Yea....right before I quit the game because the only gear that serves me well in PvP is Bind on Equip....and I can't even get into a heroic to recoup my losses because my Item Level is too low. LOL
You'd have to fundamentally change the way gear is aquired to make it practicle enough to keep people playing.
You can get a heart pounding adreneline rush without risking the last 4 months of your time. The trick is to find that happy medium of risk vs reward. As I said, from my UO experience, losing all your gear in a PvP fight usually meant you had to spend 15-30 minutes in a dungeon farming gold....IF that is, your stock is completely out. 30 minutes (for a PvPer) is plenty enough of a slap on the wrist to make ya think twice about what your doing (and provide that crazy adreneline rush)
Right about now, I'm wondering how many of the open-world, full-loot pvp advocates are the ones always running around in ninja mode -- no weapons and no armor at all, except after they've looted a victim.
The ones in Darkfall.
An enemy in UO without gear is either a recently resurrected enemy or an enemy that's about to rob you and run for his life.
An enemy in EVE without gear is a frozen corpse.
An enemy in Shadowbane without gear is not much of a threat because a) he's very vulnerable in that state and b) the servers haven't been on for at least two years.
An enemy in Puzzle Pirates without gear doesn't exist becase everyone gets a freebie stick. NOTE: Never under-estimate the guy with the stick.
Yeah Darkfall is kind of infamous for the near naked PK. Especially since it seemed like two near naked guys with maybe quasi-decent weapons or enough reags to cast a few spells could easily defeat a well equipped player. Especially if the near naked guys had high character skills.
UO wasn't as bad as DF but it did have this kind of thing before stat loss for reds. I know that whenever gankers would go out on "gank runs" they would just carry the gear they needed and nothing more, basically expecting to die. I also remember that REALLY early on in UO there was some crazy imbalance with magic arrow where these naked wizards were killing miners and crap with it.
Very true. Early UO had lots of overpowered nonsense at one point or another (lightning vs metal armor, harm wands, rapid fireballs) that allowed for rampant naked PKing. Good memory!
Hahah thanks, I'll never forget that magic arrow PK that kept killing me when I was mining way early on...damn you Elmer Fudd, you will live forever in infamy in my memory.
the concept comes from the original mmo formula, make the game waste x amount of a persons life so they will pay a monthly fee longer, in this aspect it's make the game waste x amount of a persons life trying to get uber gear over and over again so they will pay the monthly fee longer, just a different concept you see
Right about now, I'm wondering how many of the open-world, full-loot pvp advocates are the ones always running around in ninja mode -- no weapons and no armor at all, except after they've looted a victim.
No thanks.
Please, no, not the stupid uninformed stereotypes!
For what it's worth, I frequently fly ships with an equivalent ISK value to 3 months subscription. If I lose my ship, I lose the equivalent of 45 Euros. Oh, and 4 days worth of skillpoints.
the concept comes from the original mmo formula, make the game waste x amount of a persons life so they will pay a monthly fee longer, in this aspect it's make the game waste x amount of a persons life trying to get uber gear over and over again so they will pay the monthly fee longer, just a different concept you see
If you go into games with that attitude, then I guess that's the experience you'll have.
I would for example make a WOW server with only the following differences from an ordinary PVE server:
1. no battlegrounds
2. all dungeons are not instanced
3. full loot PVP
The adrenaline rush on this server would be very high and the cooperation between players would also be very high. It would be a very very interesting server.
You can make the game as hardcore you want. If your still getting gear by conventional means in WOW, your going to be faced with players that will loose full suits of armor & weapons that could have taken months to get. Now they can't raid to recoup their gear they need to PvP because Raid Bosses require you have HIGH end gear to fight them.
Now that's what I'm talking about - can you imagine a bigger adrenaline rush?
Yes, I can imagine plenty bigger rushes than having to regularly cease my PVP fun to go grind some PvE dungeon with a bunch of elitist control-freak raiding pricks.
Try joining a guild that has people in it whom you actually like and respect. MMOs are much better that way.
One of the main reasons I've always been for Full Loot PvP is that it helps promote an actually in game economy. Same with weapon degradation.
In game economies are horrid for the most part because supply and demand are so out of whack it isn't funny. In games like WoW you have crafters running around shouting "Will craft for free with your mats" as in most cases it simply isn't profitable or at the very least it's one of the least profitable means of earning in game cash.
Full Loot is one of the ways to recycle goods.
UO did this fairly well, the combination of full loot, item durrability and the possibility of breaking, randomness of bonuses on found loot and crafted items, the ability to break down items into there base material, etc. promoted a very healthy economy. People had need to travel to hubs and interact with others.
Now aside from the practical side of it... it's just fun. It's nice to feel some sense of accomplishment for your kills. It's nice to have that fear of loss when it comes to PvP. It gives it meaning. Without it well... PvP just isn't that great to be honest to me at least.
First off you have to get out of the mindset that gear is supposed to make you better. In a FFA PVP w/full loot game this isn't the case. It's not the sword that makes a player great it's the hand that wields it. In most full loot games there are no '+10 Swords of Ultimate Uberness' or anything like that... a sword is just a sword. It's the player's skill combined with the character's abilities that define them. Now this doesn't mean that there isn't better gear but the bonuses for better gear are much smaller than in a gear centric game. The difference between an Iron Sword and a Steel Sword are not that much.
What this means is loosing your gear isn't nearly the loss you might think it is as you can get more gear and be up and running again in a matter of 10-15 minutes if you play smart. What they can't loot are the most important factors in the game and what you strive to make better... Your character's abilities and your skill at playing him/her.
Bren
In a game in which skill of the player counts, it is a FPS or TPS. Action game. In a true RPG, the statistics of the character and all other elements in the game determines the chance of hit and damage. That is RPG.
It's not the sword that makes a player great it's the hand that wields it. In most full loot games there are no '+10 Swords of Ultimate Uberness' or anything like that... a sword is just a sword. It's the player's skill combined with the character's abilities that define them.
I'd imagine that, for that to be the case, there'd have a be numerous moves, fighting stances, etc. for that to work. Otherwise, it would seem to me that it's whoever gets off the most "clicks", combined with who does the "run in circles dance" with bunnyhopping.
You are talking about a duel. In one form of well designed pvp games, like DAoC's RvR, it hardly matter who click what faster, if you got outmaneuvred, ambushed, ..., if you have a good balanced team who knows which enemy to handle first, and how.
DAoC is not a full loot game, it does to me stand as the best pvp game of all times. For me, loot is immaterial as to the enjoyment of pvp. The gameplay itself matters all.
I would for example make a WOW server with only the following differences from an ordinary PVE server:
1. no battlegrounds
2. all dungeons are not instanced
3. full loot PVP
The adrenaline rush on this server would be very high and the cooperation between players would also be very high. It would be a very very interesting server.
You can make the game as hardcore you want. If your still getting gear by conventional means in WOW, your going to be faced with players that will loose full suits of armor & weapons that could have taken months to get. Now they can't raid to recoup their gear they need to PvP because Raid Bosses require you have HIGH end gear to fight them.
Now that's what I'm talking about - can you imagine a bigger adrenaline rush?
Yes, I can imagine plenty bigger rushes than having to regularly cease my PVP fun to go grind some PvE dungeon with a bunch of elitist control-freak raiding pricks.
Try joining a guild that has people in it whom you actually like and respect. MMOs are much better that way.
That was an odd reply from you, so I'll go with the possibility that you may have simply missed the point or are not familiar with gear in WOW.
Players will pick a section of the gameplay that they like and engage in that predominantly. While most players will accept a required amount of gameplay in other areas to support gameplay in their favored area, they do not enjoy it when they need to engage in inordinately high amounts of the unwanted gameplay just to take part in the gameplay they enjoy.
The scenario that was presented was WOW with full loot PVP. It is a heavily gear dependent game where good gear is BOP drop gear that takes several months and decent DKP ranking to get. Basically, a PVP death, something one can safely say happens at least once a day for a decent PVPer in WOW means a complete halt to PVP and an extensive run of the area of gaming that player is probably not looking for.
Malcanis, EVE is not heavily gear dependent and the best equipment is not BOP. EVE also has the inventory space to store all the needed stuff to just gear up and go back out again. In EVE, your corpmate can hand you a battleship and fittings to get restarted. In EVE, It seems like you are looking at it from the perspective of full loot in EVE and not from that of WOW
with only the following differences from an ordinary PVE server:
1. no battlegrounds
2. all dungeons are not instanced
3. full loot PVP
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
This is a reply directed towards the entire perma-death conversation as a whole:
EVE does infact contain both of your definitions of perma-death. If you forget to clone yourself in EVE, say goodbye to years worth of skills if you get pod-killed. Your character will be completely reset like a day 1 character, and you're fucked.
Guess you haven't been podded yet in Eve-Online, yes you will get set back in skillpoints but not by the way you describe. You will lose excactly one level of a trained skill. If it is for instance carrier 5 then yes you lost one month of time in skilltraining. If you lost however only small artelery 5 then it equals to just a week. But nowhere you lose all the time you put in, just look it as an xp penalty on death. Nowhere close to permadeath.
"If all magic fails, rely on three feet of steel and a strong arm"
I would for example make a WOW server with only the following differences from an ordinary PVE server:
1. no battlegrounds
2. all dungeons are not instanced
3. full loot PVP
The adrenaline rush on this server would be very high and the cooperation between players would also be very high. It would be a very very interesting server.
You can make the game as hardcore you want. If your still getting gear by conventional means in WOW, your going to be faced with players that will loose full suits of armor & weapons that could have taken months to get. Now they can't raid to recoup their gear they need to PvP because Raid Bosses require you have HIGH end gear to fight them.
Now that's what I'm talking about - can you imagine a bigger adrenaline rush?
Yes, I can imagine plenty bigger rushes than having to regularly cease my PVP fun to go grind some PvE dungeon with a bunch of elitist control-freak raiding pricks.
Try joining a guild that has people in it whom you actually like and respect. MMOs are much better that way.
That was an odd reply from you, so I'll go with the possibility that you may have simply missed the point or are not familiar with gear in WOW.
Players will pick a section of the gameplay that they like and engage in that predominantly.
You made it sound like your main objection was who you did that gameplay with, not the gameplay itself.
when people say full loot pvp what they are really asking for is a realistic death pentalty that doesnt envolve eraseing the charecter. its a common missunderstanding from many.
people think that full looot pvp is just so others can get better rewards from killing your worthless ass, when infact its put in to make players be more aware and careful with the game and its mechanics at the risk they could loose everything.
now there are number of flaws which totally screw this philosophy up such as gold resellers. thats right those retards that make games easier buy selling you tons of ingame funds for peanuts in real life.
it really does ruin the game!!!
another problem is kids. they simply dont unerstand the pains of the older players when they spend so long building up thewir arsenal to only have it all gone when some little nob jockey of about ten comes along and gets you killed. meaning your corpse is now left in the dirt as a free for all treasure chest.
we have all seen it in darkfall. if you wear it you loose it. its as simple as that.
and the next problem lies with pvp its self. no single games development company to date as managed to deliver a pvp system that lives off tacitcs and strategy.. no no!! they are all just... whats that wow term again !! oh yes zerg fests.
what is a zerg, a zerg is a warband or two of roughly 24 players each milling around a pre staged battle ground knowing they are going to kill people.. usually when one of these ganes are roaming they meet very little resistance as in these games people are on genral unorganised and lack the motivation to get organised. so the results are obvious and clear. they get zerged.
and that is why most games with lots of pvp have little to no def penalty.
every one wants to kill other people but they dont like it when they get killed back. so they moan and whine and wing and cry wolf or nerf or ban. these kind of games would die over night if any kind of def penalty was introduced.
here is an example of an incredibly feeble excuse for a stupidity deterant, yes yes thats whay i call people who just go wadeing into vp fights with little to no concern for other players in there groups. yes yes those people that cause entire warband wipes and those people who genrally ruin the fun of success for all.
im talking about the death pentalty lol oh shit i have 3 x dp oh no what am i going to do now!!! err guess i will just go out and keep fighting as it only lasts 3 minutes.
and thats why pvp is so crap and so lame and so tedious and so dull and gets old fast. every one is a leeroy jenkins!!!
only place that ive seen diceplined pvp is eve-online. and its completely and soley because of the death penalty.
diffrence between eve and dark fall is you cant run around naked carrying a cheap sword getting xp off the back of others risk takeing.. no no you have to take risks . and there is no xp and thats why eve pvp is so much better than any other zerg wielding mob fest out there.
eve will keep you pvping for years and years wow war lotro will not!! maybe a few months. unless your one of those no life diehards that have nothing to do but play only the games he knows and is any use in.
lets face it pvp in games such as wow lotro and warhammer are not exactly risky or hard are they. you dont need to be good at it to well be good at it!! you just have to show up and be on the end of some one elses efforts to score a kill. i know i play them and i think they are shit. yes yes all of them they are crap. the pvp in those games is just rediculously hello kitty!!
if you want real pvp that tests your mind and will then try eve. in eve you have a reason not to die and its a bloody good one and its incredibly motivational too.
one of the dp's in eve is that your last 5 months of hard work can be lost in all but a day by makeing a few simple mistakes or making a wrong turn. games like this are few and far between and we need more of them. it brings purpose to pvp and the game. it encourages team work and group play and puts the mmo back into well yea mmo!!
when people say full loot pvp what they are really asking for is a realistic death pentalty that doesnt envolve eraseing the charecter. its a common missunderstanding from many.
people think that full looot pvp is just so others can get better rewards from killing your worthless ass, when infact its put in to make players be more aware and careful with the game and its mechanics at the risk they could loose everything.
now there are number of flaws which totally screw this philosophy up such as gold resellers. thats right those retards that make games easier buy selling you tons of ingame funds for peanuts in real life.
it really does ruin the game!!!
another problem is kids. they simply dont unerstand the pains of the older players when they spend so long building up thewir arsenal to only have it all gone when some little nob jockey of about ten comes along and gets you killed. meaning your corpse is now left in the dirt as a free for all treasure chest.
we have all seen it in darkfall. if you wear it you loose it. its as simple as that.
and the next problem lies with pvp its self. no single games development company to date as managed to deliver a pvp system that lives off tacitcs and strategy.. no no!! they are all just... whats that wow term again !! oh yes zerg fests.
what is a zerg, a zerg is a warband or two of roughly 24 players each milling around a pre staged battle ground knowing they are going to kill people.. usually when one of these ganes are roaming they meet very little resistance as in these games people are on genral unorganised and lack the motivation to get organised. so the results are obvious and clear. they get zerged.
and that is why most games with lots of pvp have little to no def penalty.
every one wants to kill other people but they dont like it when they get killed back. so they moan and whine and wing and cry wolf or nerf or ban. these kind of games would die over night if any kind of def penalty was introduced.
here is an example of an incredibly feeble excuse for a stupidity deterant, yes yes thats whay i call people who just go wadeing into vp fights with little to no concern for other players in there groups. yes yes those people that cause entire warband wipes and those people who genrally ruin the fun of success for all.
im talking about the death pentalty lol oh shit i have 3 x dp oh no what am i going to do now!!! err guess i will just go out and keep fighting as it only lasts 3 minutes.
and thats why pvp is so crap and so lame and so tedious and so dull and gets old fast. every one is a leeroy jenkins!!!
only place that ive seen diceplined pvp is eve-online. and its completely and soley because of the death penalty.
diffrence between eve and dark fall is you cant run around naked carrying a cheap sword getting xp off the back of others risk takeing.. no no you have to take risks . and there is no xp and thats why eve pvp is so much better than any other zerg wielding mob fest out there.
eve will keep you pvping for years and years wow war lotro will not!! maybe a few months. unless your one of those no life diehards that have nothing to do but play only the games he knows and is any use in.
lets face it pvp in games such as wow lotro and warhammer are not exactly risky or hard are they. you dont need to be good at it to well be good at it!! you just have to show up and be on the end of some one elses efforts to score a kill. i know i play them and i think they are shit. yes yes all of them they are crap. the pvp in those games is just rediculously hello kitty!!
if you want real pvp that tests your mind and will then try eve. in eve you have a reason not to die and its a bloody good one and its incredibly motivational too.
one of the dp's in eve is that your last 5 months of hard work can be lost in all but a day by makeing a few simple mistakes or making a wrong turn. games like this are few and far between and we need more of them. it brings purpose to pvp and the game. it encourages team work and group play and puts the mmo back into well yea mmo!!
Sorry to break your bubble, but Eve-online is also just a zergfest these days. It is just that you have a few zergs running around and the enemy will always try to overshadow you with more people or more super carriers these days. So no thanks to that kind of PvP. And yes I play eve now for nearly 7 years and still do occasionaly, but small scale pvp is hard to find without getting outblobbed or hotdropped if you fly something of value.
Loss of 5 months work? Then we are indeed speaking about blobls super carriers and titans, all other things can be replaced by a dedicated player in less then a week. So that is 5 months work lost to an alliance in the situation they get outtricked and their capital fleet gets a heavy blow, but this is not on an individual layer.
So nope Eve-Onlines PvP isn't good, it was good untill CCP fucked it up with super capitals.
"If all magic fails, rely on three feet of steel and a strong arm"
I'm curious as to what makes this appealing to some people.
From my perspective, it sounds like it would be a real pain in the arse. You spend 'X' amount of hours crafting/finding "gear", someone/something kills you, you die, and someone takes all your stuff. Making the time you put into getting your "gear" useless.
Now, I know people say in these types of games to "only use what you can afford to lose." But, what then is the point to get anything better? If there's an "Epic Sword of Uber Doom" or a "Super Ship of Mega Awesomeness", that take days/weeks/months to aqquire, what's the point if you're never going to use it, or risk losing it if you do?
All that said, I could be looking at this all wrong and am just missing the point. But from where I'm standing, it seems like a huge time waster.
Thoughts?
-Z
The first mmo I played and really got into was Sahdowbane. In Shadowbane, when you died, you had the possibility of lossing everything you were carring in you bag. You didn't loos the equiped gear, it only took damage. The deal was though, that the amount of weight you could carry was dependent on how much strenght your character possessed. So, when you were killed, you could typically go back to your grave and find that most of the items were still present - your gold was looong gone though.
The appeal was the sense of danger and knowing that you had to try every trick in the book to not die. With a lot of games thee days, like with WoW, which I'm currently playing - There is no penalty for dying. You're not going to loose a thing, so where is your incentive to stay alive? You can just sit there and let someone kill you, knowing that you'll come right back with no repercussions.
Back when I played Shadownbane, you would fight to the bitter end and try anything possible (even calling for an Evac/Summons in the open channels, which had the opurtunilty to turn out REALLY BAD, as some people would summon you and kill you immediately. Point is, you would try your best not to die when you knew your shit would be taken.
The main appeal, as I would see it, would be a means to drive a heavy player based economy. This would neccisitate more varied roles, such as people who enjoy harvesting and crafting, being able to advance their characters exclusively in that way. Although this would work better in an item decay setting rather than a full loot, or perhaps a combination of the 2.
Full loot for it's own sake? I think thats a bad idea, its better as a means to drive another part of the game.
This is a reply directed towards the entire perma-death conversation as a whole:
EVE does infact contain both of your definitions of perma-death. If you forget to clone yourself in EVE, say goodbye to years worth of skills if you get pod-killed. Your character will be completely reset like a day 1 character, and you're fucked.
Guess you haven't been podded yet in Eve-Online, yes you will get set back in skillpoints but not by the way you describe. You will lose excactly one level of a trained skill. If it is for instance carrier 5 then yes you lost one month of time in skilltraining. If you lost however only small artelery 5 then it equals to just a week. But nowhere you lose all the time you put in, just look it as an xp penalty on death. Nowhere close to permadeath.
Wrong again, from the wiki:
If you are pod killed while possessing more skill points than your clone is rated for, your highest ranked, highest level skill will lose training points. The amount lost depends on the difference between the maximum skill points of the clone and the number of skill points possessed by the pilot. The maximum amount of skill points that can be lost is 2,048,000.
Still that's a lot of points but it's not the worst thing ever :P
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This thread is far too focused on soloing (in an M-M-O!) the game shouldn't be balanced for people that don't want to play the game properly in a group or corporation. You can very much more easily mitigate risk when you're out in a fleet
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I feel sorry for the folks that don't enjoy EVE but want something like it, cause there really isn't anything as good out there in the fantasy realm. The economny and crafting being tied so well to the losses of assets, logistics being important, these are the building blocks of a great pvp game.
People were mentioning that serial killers would have consequences, and in EVE if you kill enough in empire you will be unable to enter without being hunted by police, until you bring your security rating up (a harsh grind) - this could easily be applied to other games, and i'm sure similar systems have been used, i forget the game but there was one where you would become KOS to everyone if you killed.
Comments
Now that's what I'm talking about - can you imagine a bigger adrenaline rush?
The ones in Darkfall.
An enemy in UO without gear is either a recently resurrected enemy or an enemy that's about to rob you and run for his life.
An enemy in EVE without gear is a frozen corpse.
An enemy in Shadowbane without gear is not much of a threat because a) he's very vulnerable in that state and b) the servers haven't been on for at least two years.
An enemy in Puzzle Pirates without gear doesn't exist becase everyone gets a freebie stick. NOTE: Never under-estimate the guy with the stick.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Yes, I can imagine plenty bigger rushes than having to regularly cease my PVP fun to go grind some PvE dungeon with a bunch of elitist control-freak raiding pricks.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I was more worried about the fighters running around without anything at all and using hand-to-hand / unarmed attacks. Maybe 'Ninja' wasn't the best choice of words, as that is easily confused with 'ninja looting'. Try the same sentiment with 'Monk' instead. These 'naked' players circumvent the spirit of risk and reward by minimizing their own risk (nothing to be lost by someone looting them). Ultima had a vast number of them, including the beta 'pantless raid' (which I missed by a couple of days).
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Yeah Darkfall is kind of infamous for the near naked PK. Especially since it seemed like two near naked guys with maybe quasi-decent weapons or enough reags to cast a few spells could easily defeat a well equipped player. Especially if the near naked guys had high character skills.
UO wasn't as bad as DF but it did have this kind of thing before stat loss for reds. I know that whenever gankers would go out on "gank runs" they would just carry the gear they needed and nothing more, basically expecting to die. I also remember that REALLY early on in UO there was some crazy imbalance with magic arrow where these naked wizards were killing miners and crap with it.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
You don't have to grind PvE dungeons, you could just kill raiders of the opposite faction and get the gear.
Very true. Early UO had lots of overpowered nonsense at one point or another (lightning vs metal armor, harm wands, rapid fireballs) that allowed for rampant naked PKing. Good memory!
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I can't speak on Ultima Online's Beta...as I started the game in Rennisance, and ended with Age of Shadows. During that time, fighting unarmed as a warrior would pretty much mean that your dead. The only UO class types that really utilized unarmed combat were thieves to disarm, and mages to stun....but for special moves only, not sustainable (or even practicle) damage output.
Yes there are games with monk type classes that have the luxury of not needing a weapon....but I haven't seen a full loot game with that class makeup.
Full Loot isn't something you can just throw in any game to increase the stakes. The point I've been trying to make is, Full Loot works, so long as it doesn't completely handicap your character's ability to recoup their losses. You have to have supporting systems to make Full Loot practicle.....like a skill centered game, not gear centered....gear has to be affordable and easily aquirable. There has to be proper Karma system implemented. Its most certianly not a feature that you can implement wrecklessly.....but can lend to some positive intangible consequences.
Yea....right before I quit the game because the only gear that serves me well in PvP is Bind on Equip....and I can't even get into a heroic to recoup my losses because my Item Level is too low. LOL
You'd have to fundamentally change the way gear is aquired to make it practicle enough to keep people playing.
You can get a heart pounding adreneline rush without risking the last 4 months of your time. The trick is to find that happy medium of risk vs reward. As I said, from my UO experience, losing all your gear in a PvP fight usually meant you had to spend 15-30 minutes in a dungeon farming gold....IF that is, your stock is completely out. 30 minutes (for a PvPer) is plenty enough of a slap on the wrist to make ya think twice about what your doing (and provide that crazy adreneline rush)
Hahah thanks, I'll never forget that magic arrow PK that kept killing me when I was mining way early on...damn you Elmer Fudd, you will live forever in infamy in my memory.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
the concept comes from the original mmo formula, make the game waste x amount of a persons life so they will pay a monthly fee longer, in this aspect it's make the game waste x amount of a persons life trying to get uber gear over and over again so they will pay the monthly fee longer, just a different concept you see
Please, no, not the stupid uninformed stereotypes!
For what it's worth, I frequently fly ships with an equivalent ISK value to 3 months subscription. If I lose my ship, I lose the equivalent of 45 Euros. Oh, and 4 days worth of skillpoints.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
If you go into games with that attitude, then I guess that's the experience you'll have.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
Try joining a guild that has people in it whom you actually like and respect. MMOs are much better that way.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
One of the main reasons I've always been for Full Loot PvP is that it helps promote an actually in game economy. Same with weapon degradation.
In game economies are horrid for the most part because supply and demand are so out of whack it isn't funny. In games like WoW you have crafters running around shouting "Will craft for free with your mats" as in most cases it simply isn't profitable or at the very least it's one of the least profitable means of earning in game cash.
Full Loot is one of the ways to recycle goods.
UO did this fairly well, the combination of full loot, item durrability and the possibility of breaking, randomness of bonuses on found loot and crafted items, the ability to break down items into there base material, etc. promoted a very healthy economy. People had need to travel to hubs and interact with others.
Now aside from the practical side of it... it's just fun. It's nice to feel some sense of accomplishment for your kills. It's nice to have that fear of loss when it comes to PvP. It gives it meaning. Without it well... PvP just isn't that great to be honest to me at least.
In a game in which skill of the player counts, it is a FPS or TPS. Action game. In a true RPG, the statistics of the character and all other elements in the game determines the chance of hit and damage. That is RPG.I'd imagine that, for that to be the case, there'd have a be numerous moves, fighting stances, etc. for that to work. Otherwise, it would seem to me that it's whoever gets off the most "clicks", combined with who does the "run in circles dance" with bunnyhopping.
You are talking about a duel. In one form of well designed pvp games, like DAoC's RvR, it hardly matter who click what faster, if you got outmaneuvred, ambushed, ..., if you have a good balanced team who knows which enemy to handle first, and how.DAoC is not a full loot game, it does to me stand as the best pvp game of all times. For me, loot is immaterial as to the enjoyment of pvp. The gameplay itself matters all.
That was an odd reply from you, so I'll go with the possibility that you may have simply missed the point or are not familiar with gear in WOW.
Players will pick a section of the gameplay that they like and engage in that predominantly. While most players will accept a required amount of gameplay in other areas to support gameplay in their favored area, they do not enjoy it when they need to engage in inordinately high amounts of the unwanted gameplay just to take part in the gameplay they enjoy.
The scenario that was presented was WOW with full loot PVP. It is a heavily gear dependent game where good gear is BOP drop gear that takes several months and decent DKP ranking to get. Basically, a PVP death, something one can safely say happens at least once a day for a decent PVPer in WOW means a complete halt to PVP and an extensive run of the area of gaming that player is probably not looking for.
Malcanis, EVE is not heavily gear dependent and the best equipment is not BOP. EVE also has the inventory space to store all the needed stuff to just gear up and go back out again. In EVE, your corpmate can hand you a battleship and fittings to get restarted. In EVE, It seems like you are looking at it from the perspective of full loot in EVE and not from that of WOW
with only the following differences from an ordinary PVE server:
1. no battlegrounds
2. all dungeons are not instanced
3. full loot PVP
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Guess you haven't been podded yet in Eve-Online, yes you will get set back in skillpoints but not by the way you describe. You will lose excactly one level of a trained skill. If it is for instance carrier 5 then yes you lost one month of time in skilltraining. If you lost however only small artelery 5 then it equals to just a week. But nowhere you lose all the time you put in, just look it as an xp penalty on death. Nowhere close to permadeath.
"If all magic fails, rely on three feet of steel and a strong arm"
You made it sound like your main objection was who you did that gameplay with, not the gameplay itself.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
when people say full loot pvp what they are really asking for is a realistic death pentalty that doesnt envolve eraseing the charecter. its a common missunderstanding from many.
people think that full looot pvp is just so others can get better rewards from killing your worthless ass, when infact its put in to make players be more aware and careful with the game and its mechanics at the risk they could loose everything.
now there are number of flaws which totally screw this philosophy up such as gold resellers. thats right those retards that make games easier buy selling you tons of ingame funds for peanuts in real life.
it really does ruin the game!!!
another problem is kids. they simply dont unerstand the pains of the older players when they spend so long building up thewir arsenal to only have it all gone when some little nob jockey of about ten comes along and gets you killed. meaning your corpse is now left in the dirt as a free for all treasure chest.
we have all seen it in darkfall. if you wear it you loose it. its as simple as that.
and the next problem lies with pvp its self. no single games development company to date as managed to deliver a pvp system that lives off tacitcs and strategy.. no no!! they are all just... whats that wow term again !! oh yes zerg fests.
what is a zerg, a zerg is a warband or two of roughly 24 players each milling around a pre staged battle ground knowing they are going to kill people.. usually when one of these ganes are roaming they meet very little resistance as in these games people are on genral unorganised and lack the motivation to get organised. so the results are obvious and clear. they get zerged.
and that is why most games with lots of pvp have little to no def penalty.
every one wants to kill other people but they dont like it when they get killed back. so they moan and whine and wing and cry wolf or nerf or ban. these kind of games would die over night if any kind of def penalty was introduced.
here is an example of an incredibly feeble excuse for a stupidity deterant, yes yes thats whay i call people who just go wadeing into vp fights with little to no concern for other players in there groups. yes yes those people that cause entire warband wipes and those people who genrally ruin the fun of success for all.
im talking about the death pentalty lol oh shit i have 3 x dp oh no what am i going to do now!!! err guess i will just go out and keep fighting as it only lasts 3 minutes.
and thats why pvp is so crap and so lame and so tedious and so dull and gets old fast. every one is a leeroy jenkins!!!
only place that ive seen diceplined pvp is eve-online. and its completely and soley because of the death penalty.
diffrence between eve and dark fall is you cant run around naked carrying a cheap sword getting xp off the back of others risk takeing.. no no you have to take risks . and there is no xp
and thats why eve pvp is so much better than any other zerg wielding mob fest out there.
eve will keep you pvping for years and years wow war lotro will not!! maybe a few months. unless your one of those no life diehards that have nothing to do but play only the games he knows and is any use in.
lets face it pvp in games such as wow lotro and warhammer are not exactly risky or hard are they. you dont need to be good at it to well be good at it!! you just have to show up and be on the end of some one elses efforts to score a kill. i know i play them and i think they are shit. yes yes all of them they are crap. the pvp in those games is just rediculously hello kitty!!
if you want real pvp that tests your mind and will then try eve. in eve you have a reason not to die and its a bloody good one and its incredibly motivational too.
one of the dp's in eve is that your last 5 months of hard work can be lost in all but a day by makeing a few simple mistakes or making a wrong turn. games like this are few and far between and we need more of them. it brings purpose to pvp and the game. it encourages team work and group play and puts the mmo back into well yea mmo!!
Sorry to break your bubble, but Eve-online is also just a zergfest these days. It is just that you have a few zergs running around and the enemy will always try to overshadow you with more people or more super carriers these days. So no thanks to that kind of PvP. And yes I play eve now for nearly 7 years and still do occasionaly, but small scale pvp is hard to find without getting outblobbed or hotdropped if you fly something of value.
Loss of 5 months work? Then we are indeed speaking about blobls super carriers and titans, all other things can be replaced by a dedicated player in less then a week. So that is 5 months work lost to an alliance in the situation they get outtricked and their capital fleet gets a heavy blow, but this is not on an individual layer.
So nope Eve-Onlines PvP isn't good, it was good untill CCP fucked it up with super capitals.
"If all magic fails, rely on three feet of steel and a strong arm"
The first mmo I played and really got into was Sahdowbane. In Shadowbane, when you died, you had the possibility of lossing everything you were carring in you bag. You didn't loos the equiped gear, it only took damage. The deal was though, that the amount of weight you could carry was dependent on how much strenght your character possessed. So, when you were killed, you could typically go back to your grave and find that most of the items were still present - your gold was looong gone though.
The appeal was the sense of danger and knowing that you had to try every trick in the book to not die. With a lot of games thee days, like with WoW, which I'm currently playing - There is no penalty for dying. You're not going to loose a thing, so where is your incentive to stay alive? You can just sit there and let someone kill you, knowing that you'll come right back with no repercussions.
Back when I played Shadownbane, you would fight to the bitter end and try anything possible (even calling for an Evac/Summons in the open channels, which had the opurtunilty to turn out REALLY BAD, as some people would summon you and kill you immediately. Point is, you would try your best not to die when you knew your shit would be taken.
The main appeal, as I would see it, would be a means to drive a heavy player based economy. This would neccisitate more varied roles, such as people who enjoy harvesting and crafting, being able to advance their characters exclusively in that way. Although this would work better in an item decay setting rather than a full loot, or perhaps a combination of the 2.
Full loot for it's own sake? I think thats a bad idea, its better as a means to drive another part of the game.
Wrong again, from the wiki:
If you are pod killed while possessing more skill points than your clone is rated for, your highest ranked, highest level skill will lose training points. The amount lost depends on the difference between the maximum skill points of the clone and the number of skill points possessed by the pilot. The maximum amount of skill points that can be lost is 2,048,000.
Still that's a lot of points but it's not the worst thing ever :P
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This thread is far too focused on soloing (in an M-M-O!) the game shouldn't be balanced for people that don't want to play the game properly in a group or corporation. You can very much more easily mitigate risk when you're out in a fleet
--
I feel sorry for the folks that don't enjoy EVE but want something like it, cause there really isn't anything as good out there in the fantasy realm. The economny and crafting being tied so well to the losses of assets, logistics being important, these are the building blocks of a great pvp game.
People were mentioning that serial killers would have consequences, and in EVE if you kill enough in empire you will be unable to enter without being hunted by police, until you bring your security rating up (a harsh grind) - this could easily be applied to other games, and i'm sure similar systems have been used, i forget the game but there was one where you would become KOS to everyone if you killed.
<Welcome to my world>