I'm curious as to what makes this appealing to some people.
From my perspective, it sounds like it would be a real pain in the arse. You spend 'X' amount of hours crafting/finding "gear", someone/something kills you, you die, and someone takes all your stuff. Making the time you put into getting your "gear" useless.
Not every MMO is created like WOW/LOTRO/EQ/WAR/etc. In AC, UO, EVE, Shadowbane and other MMOs with item drop on death, gear and loot is a lot more accessible. In each of those, it is (for SB, was) very common to have multiple sets of gear. based on what you'll be fightinfg, the role you'll be playing in the battle and what you expect your enemy to bring.
The inventory systems, crafting, loot access, importance of gear in battle and many other factors of the game are also very different from the mainstream MMO design in order to accommodate such gameplay. In your mainstream MMO, gear is your lifeblood. If a max level WOW player lost all their gear in a battle, that would probably be grounds for a massive ragequit considering the time and effort they put into getting it. In UO or EVE Online, gear is a consumable. The expectation is that it will be lost in battle. Does that make the loss meaningless if it can be repalced? Nope. To use a RL analogy, if a person has a few thousand in the bank and they take a few hundred of 'play money' to Vegas, they (if they are remotely lucid and rational) expect to lose some or all of that money but their goal is to either see how long they can keep it in play or if they can turn it into more than what they started with. Describing the thrill and fun of full loot PvP is very difficult. It's like trying to describe to people why bungie jumping or a roller coaster is a rush. while these activities are far more extreme than bringing your dev inscribed silver broadsword to full loot PvP battle, the nature of the attraction is similar. If you think about it, bungie jumping is something that a human being should either find a boring waste of time or something to stay the hell away from - the thrill is in the feeling of risk and the fun is in knowing you can do it again tomorrow.
Most full loot games play very differently from other MMOs - the goals, risks, rewards and core design are drastically different.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
dusn't have to be pull loot, just consequenses for engaging in pvp if you lose. Like SWG had 10% durability los on cloning ( and armor would be gone when it reaches 0)
I love ful loot games and the biggest misconception people have is they use the time it takes to get gear in a game like WoW to a full loot. It is not the case, in full loot games gear is basically thrown at you. Most I ever lose is 20 minutes of farming as I bank constantly. Take Darkfall, most people run around in Bone, takes about a day or two of tailoring to make it and it is cheap. Then you have dragon/Infernal a bit harder to get but still not that hard. Get in a good clan and they will gear you up. It is so easy to get gear in these games that if you rage dieing then full loot is not for you. Full loot has a very small community and we love it the way it is.
I play Darkfall possible 2 hours a day, maybe, if the wife and kids are content and my workload is done. I possibly lose more gear then most as I am not very good. But I LOVE IT, I would not trade full loot for anything.
Full loot is not for everyone EXCPECIALLY if you attach your self to the pixels...
I find that when there is a real threat of losing hard-earned things, quite different PvP environment can emerge.
EVE does this very well, but a typical MMORPG seldom give tools to actually protect oneself or create a system where it is works. People, on the other hand, cry for fairness and getting gangbanged is far from it. War is seldom fair.
My assumption, and it is just an assumption, is that great many of those people who really enjoy full-loot PvP (discounting EVE here because the system works differently) are actually sosiopaths or psychopaths. Afterall, we know that 3-5% of men and 1% of women fit that category. These are people who often have no conscience nor can they feel empathy, but can feel pleasure and other emotions.
No doubt there are many other reasons to enjoy full loot PvP.
So all early mmos like UO was for psychopats? HAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
And if you didnt hear
HAHAHAHAHAAHAHHAHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
Reason full loot was removed. Devs added 0.01% drop loot. To keep dumbasses subbed. And if they got killed with that "hard earned" loot that bot could do that also. they whined and quited game.
Look uo and eve. Both you lose what you had. When you die. Gear is easy to make, crafting is profitable. But 0.01% slot machine guys hate that.
What I ment was that these type of games garner a high number of those type in comparison to other games. The same with PvP vs PvE servers. It is not about the loot, but causing grief and getting pleasure from doing so.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
I know everyone will probably hate on me for saying this, but I really like Runescape's system of:
A) having the wilderness, so you had your non-pvp areas and then your specific pvp area that is still huuuuuge and has level 1 wilderness level 2 etc. so you can only attack someone that is within that level range of your level +/- the wilderness level.
If you do not attack anyone first, then when you die you keep 3 most valuable items
C) If you do attack anyone first you are flagged with a skull for a period of time and will lose all items on death
D) There is a prayer that allows you to retain 1 extra item of highest value on death
Honestly Runescape is the game I had the most enjoyable pvp experience out of any game I've ever played.
The problem with Full Loot PVP for me is that the risk/reward balance isn't really there.
Proponents like to say that they have the same risk of losing their stuff as anyone else, but this really isn't the case. They have, in concept, the same win/loss chance as anyone else. However, they end up playing this like the casino does in vegas. They mitigate their losses, and maximise the risk for other people.
If someone just got done hunting, they are loaded up with the spoils of their game. The Advocate generally has just whats needed to kill someone on. Advantage: Advocate. If the hunter wins, the advocate is out the bare minimum investment, which generally in games that have full loot, isn't that high. If the hunter loses, they are out everything that they've got on them which they are trying to deliver to the bank/market. Generally, this is worth much more than the Advocates stuff.
By "playing smart" the advocate makes much more reward than they ever actually risk at the game. And as such, the risk/reward balance is off.
The only way to balance this behavior is to increase long-term risk of the Full-Loot PVP playstyle. Just like other criminals (that is what they are playing, bandits/outlaws) the high rewards come with a very serious downside. In RL its often death or long-term prison sentences. In a Full Loot Game, I don't know what the answer is...
The only way to balance this behavior is to increase long-term risk of the Full-Loot PVP playstyle. Just like other criminals (that is what they are playing, bandits/outlaws) the high rewards come with a very serious downside. In RL its often death or long-term prison sentences. In a Full Loot Game, I don't know what the answer is...
well, i thought about system which would be full loot open pvp, but with pvp/nonpvp flags on players (switchable with cds) and while you would be still able to attack, kill and loot nonpvp player, it would give you murderer flag which would mean that for certain amount of online time each of your deaths from players would have chance to be perma death
Full Loot PVP is more exciting than no full loot. If you have more to lose you get that much more out of the experience. Now it won't work in games like WoW because the game is based on items... everybody loves their items(Pixels)
Anyone who has played old UO, Shadowbane and Darkfall online know that those pixels mean nothing. In fact many a war we ended up fighting naked on teh walls in Shadowbane because we could.
Full Loot PVP is more exciting than no full loot. If you have more to lose you get that much more out of the experience.
That's only really applicable to gambler types. For non-gamblers they will get less out of the experience since they with more to lose they can't experiment as much.
I do enjoy full-loot PVP, and I am not a PVPer. I actively go out of my way to avoid PVP and am generally a crafter / hunter / gatherer type. Somehow I "doubt" this qualifies me as a sociopath.
What I like, is in some games full-loot PVP improves the community. People go out of their way to get to know their neighbors, other people nearby, etc. However this is a fine balance that depends on other game mechanics - in some cases it just turns into a mindless mass of PVP where mass slaughter is the only purpose of the game.
Lately I've been playing Haven & Hearth which not only has full-loot PVP but also permadeath. And it does make you paranoid. But I also enjoy teaming up with other people I meet, carving out a tiny place in the wilderness to keep us safe, etc. In some ways it means more knowing you could lose it at any time.
I've also played my share of WoW, Rift, etc, and I enjoy those too - it's just a different dynamic.
First off you have to get out of the mindset that gear is supposed to make you better. In a FFA PVP w/full loot game this isn't the case. It's not the sword that makes a player great it's the hand that wields it. In most full loot games there are no '+10 Swords of Ultimate Uberness' or anything like that... a sword is just a sword. It's the player's skill combined with the character's abilities that define them. Now this doesn't mean that there isn't better gear but the bonuses for better gear are much smaller than in a gear centric game. The difference between an Iron Sword and a Steel Sword are not that much.
What this means is loosing your gear isn't nearly the loss you might think it is as you can get more gear and be up and running again in a matter of 10-15 minutes if you play smart. What they can't loot are the most important factors in the game and what you strive to make better... Your character's abilities and your skill at playing him/her.
First off you have to get out of the mindset that gear is supposed to make you better. In a FFA PVP w/full loot game this isn't the case. It's not the sword that makes a player great it's the hand that wields it. In most full loot games there are no '+10 Swords of Ultimate Uberness' or anything like that... a sword is just a sword. It's the player's skill combined with the character's abilities that define them. Now this doesn't mean that there isn't better gear but the bonuses for better gear are much smaller than in a gear centric game. The difference between an Iron Sword and a Steel Sword are not that much.
What this means is loosing your gear isn't nearly the loss you might think it is as you can get more gear and be up and running agian in a matter of 10-15 minutes if you play smart. What they can't loot are the most important factors in the game and what you strive to make better... Your character's abilities and your skill at playing him/her.
Bren
Ye i agree with Bren, full loot game usually don't see items the same way as other usual mmos. Those mmo are called "non gear based" mmos. But for sure those kind are pretty rare since Bart study was adored the dev teams around the world and began to make "archeiver only" mmos with EQ and after.
A completely different viewpoint to Full Loot PVP:
A basic game situation: I'm at point A and the treasure is at point B. What makes it interesting for me to play? Not the treasure by itself, but getting to the treasure. More difficult it is to get to the treasure more fun I will have. The difficulty can be increased in the following way:
1. you have some mobs between point A and B
2. you have some bosses between point A and B
3. you have PVP: players are much more unpredictable then AI of NPCs and harder to beat
3. you have Full Loot PVP (that's the hardest difficulty)
It's the same as in single-player games, where you have different levels of difficulty. Some like to play at the easiest level, some like to play at the hardest level. In MMORPGs some like to play PVE, some like to play PVP and some like to play Full Loot PVP.
It's not the sword that makes a player great it's the hand that wields it. In most full loot games there are no '+10 Swords of Ultimate Uberness' or anything like that... a sword is just a sword. It's the player's skill combined with the character's abilities that define them.
I'd imagine that, for that to be the case, there'd have a be numerous moves, fighting stances, etc. for that to work. Otherwise, it would seem to me that it's whoever gets off the most "clicks", combined with who does the "run in circles dance" with bunnyhopping.
Also just to throw in a comment about it being "gamblers" who like full-loot PVP - maybe? But I actually strongly dislike casino-gambling because it's pretty clearly statistically weighted against the end player.
In gaming, the 'odds' are to some extent what you make of them - how much you prepare, how well you know your class (or abilities), how you approach new situations. If we're comparing that to straight gambling, then any kind of risk in life is the same kind of gamble - changing jobs, getting married, raising a child. There is a lot at risk in these situations if you 'screw it up'. But I'm not convinced that makes people who do these things some kind of hardcore gambling addict.
There's a reason nobody does full-loot PvP anymore, and why games that are sometimes said to have it really don't, or mitigate it significantly. It sounds very appealing: you're a wolf, hunting sheep in the night for their loot and their tears. Trouble is, most of those people turn out to be sheep. Nobody wants to be a sheep, and to be a wolf, you need to be ultra-hardcore, which most people aren't willing or able to do.
People remember the golden age of Ultima Online back when it had full-loot FFA PvP. Back then, though, the general consensus was that it made the game unplayable for most, which was a big part of the reason people flocked to EverQuest instead (3d being the other part.)
I actually left to EQ, and many people at the time, due to UO having horrible lag and rubberbanding. They were having bad problems at the wrong time.
People could be bigger jerks in the non-ffa pvp area at first also, imo.
I didn't like the new lands/rules.
I wasn't a huge pvper either, I did a lot of crafting, pve type stuff.
The appeal for me is the intensity, and I think that's why most people don't enjoy it. Having to constantly look over your shoulder and be aware of your surroundings requires the gamer to actually pay attention and think on their feet, which is something most of us aren't used to (especially since a large majority of MMO's don't require this of you). The reason I mention this is because full loot usually comes in games that have FFA PvP, and though you may play a themepark on a PvP server, you're not actually ever going to lose anything of value, so the intensity simply doesn't exist unless you're extremely competitive and can't stand respawning from time to time. With full loot, the risk is what provides that atmospheric presence of danger while you're traversing the world or doing whatever it is you might be doing, and the worlds that offer it are ultimately far more interesting to me.
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
Originally posted by Brenelael First off you have to get out of the mindset that gear is supposed to make you better. In a FFA PVP w/full loot game this isn't the case. It's not the sword that makes a player great it's the hand that wields it. In most full loot games there are no '+10 Swords of Ultimate Uberness' or anything like that... a sword is just a sword. It's the player's skill combined with the character's abilities that define them. Now this doesn't mean that there isn't better gear but the bonuses for better gear are much smaller than in a gear centric game. The difference between an Iron Sword and a Steel Sword are not that much.
What this means is loosing your gear isn't nearly the loss you might think it is as you can get more gear and be up and running again in a matter of 10-15 minutes if you play smart. What they can't loot are the most important factors in the game and what you strive to make better... Your character's abilities and your skill at playing him/her.
Bren
This is exactly why full-body looting makes for bland and repetitive PvP. Rare and valuable items either don't exist or end up never getting used, and whatever gear you manage to loot from opponents is likely to be not much different than the same low-end armor you're already wearing. Crafting becomes a tedious chore, as you end up creating the same gear over and over rather than gradually aiming for a masterpiece that will give a player a serious advantage in PvP. The only real system of progression for playing these kinds of games are agonizing skill growth setups that reward players with a slow stat climb simply for doing the same combat tasks for hours on end.
In real life the guy who invested the time and money to arm themselves with an assault rifle will have a large advantage in combat over the person who comes in with a handful of rocks. Now it may just happen that the opponent may be incredibly skilled at throwing rocks, and thus win anyways... but there has to be a balance between the two, good gear should be able to make up for lower player levels AND vice versa. Saying that "a weapon is just a weapon" in this situation is just ridiculous.
First off you have to get out of the mindset that gear is supposed to make you better. In a FFA PVP w/full loot game this isn't the case. It's not the sword that makes a player great it's the hand that wields it. In most full loot games there are no '+10 Swords of Ultimate Uberness' or anything like that... a sword is just a sword. It's the player's skill combined with the character's abilities that define them. Now this doesn't mean that there isn't better gear but the bonuses for better gear are much smaller than in a gear centric game. The difference between an Iron Sword and a Steel Sword are not that much.
What this means is loosing your gear isn't nearly the loss you might think it is as you can get more gear and be up and running again in a matter of 10-15 minutes if you play smart. What they can't loot are the most important factors in the game and what you strive to make better... Your character's abilities and your skill at playing him/her.
Bren
This is exactly why full-body looting makes for bland and repetitive PvP. Rare and valuable items either don't exist or end up never getting used, and whatever gear you manage to loot from opponents is likely to be not much different than the same low-end armor you're already wearing. Crafting becomes a tedious chore, as you end up creating the same gear over and over rather than gradually aiming for a masterpiece that will give a player a serious advantage in PvP. The only real system of progression for playing these kinds of games are agonizing skill growth setups that reward players with a slow stat climb simply for doing the same combat tasks for hours on end.
In real life the guy who invested the time and money to arm themselves with an assault rifle will have a large advantage in combat over the person who comes in with a handful of rocks. Now it may just happen that the opponent may be incredibly skilled at throwing rocks, and thus win anyways... but there has to be a balance between the two, good gear should be able to make up for lower player levels AND vice versa. Saying that "a weapon is just a weapon" in this situation is just ridiculous.
All of these FFA PvP and full loot games do have weapons that are far better than standard items, and the players you see using them are the ones skilled enough to keep them. I understand what you're trying to get at, I think you're right to some degree, but full loot PvP is anything but bland and repetitive. If anything, especially in open world environments or in a game with territory control, there's far more at stake. That's why I prefer full loot. It's certainly not for everyone.
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
for me open pvp "with looting only what is in your bags if you die " are great it makes players group more..lvl more ..farm more..and doing all this while knowing that there may be gankers out there waiting to strike ...meaning haveing a scout to "really" scout and "really" trac ...haveing someone that can cure or dispell / protect you and even maybe someone to "evac" you and you team when its needed ...it brings the sence of "playing" together what 100% of mmo's of today are missing...instead we are stuck with single player mmo's that are loaded with area / arena type pvp that are utter BS..i am a huge fan of SHADOWBANE and hands down it was the greatest >imo< open pvp game evar! yes it lacked in some areas but it was well in the way of going down a great path to set new and better standards for up coming mmo's that would have pvp ...then rolled around wow..thats another story in its self
Allowing rare and valuable weapons in full-loot PvP games can work if the players are forced to follow the laws of physical reality- not being able to log off and vanish the instant your character is about to die is a good example. Also, a lot of these full-loot games tend to have horribly unbalanced combat systems (Darkfall comes to mind), which makes using these rare items a bit of a crapshoot, as a single misclick or bit of server lag can result in death no matter how "skilled" you are. Who wants to risk using these items when there's no guarantee that they'll even have an impact in combat?
And finally there is the inevitable tendency of the players in these types of games to gather into huge alliances that form an uneasy peace with each other, all due to a paranoia over losing gear and the realization that staying a carebear is far more profitable than participating in combat in this type of game. This results in 80% of the hardcore playerbase reserving PvP to a few carefully controlled combat events rather than leaving the game as the big open PvP world that people signed up for in the first place.
IMO full loot drop made a person play even better, it gave a sense of peril that games today don't even touch. AC being a prime example...sink or swim live or die.Nothing more satisfying then looting something that a person needs or wants and them begging for it back.
It's not the sword that makes a player great it's the hand that wields it. In most full loot games there are no '+10 Swords of Ultimate Uberness' or anything like that... a sword is just a sword. It's the player's skill combined with the character's abilities that define them.
I'd imagine that, for that to be the case, there'd have a be numerous moves, fighting stances, etc. for that to work. Otherwise, it would seem to me that it's whoever gets off the most "clicks", combined with who does the "run in circles dance" with bunnyhopping.
As I mentioned before, not every MMO is a WOW variant, Zolgar. Outside of the standard cooldown-based zero-collision battleground combat you find in the various mainstream MMOs there are games where pre-planning, formation, recon, territory ownership, intel gathering and other such aspects come into play. Also, games with full loot PVP, due to the nature of the rest of the mechanics in the game combined with that one, are often prone to having more diplomatic gameplay. From Puzzle Pirates to EVE Online a sharp and silvery tongues are just as deadly and effective as sharp and silvery swords, however when faced with a lich I would certainly choose the silver sword over a silver tongue any day. Licking the undead is just a bad idea in any scenario.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Comments
Sure there are, but that's not a reason not to have full loot PvP.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
There are two types of people who enjoy full loot relatively unrestricted PvP:
1. People who want a dangerous environment where they feel there are real consequences for their actions. These people are often killed and looted.
2. People who want to indiscrimately kill other players and take all their stuff for profit.
Once you realize that this is the environment, full loot becomes a lot less appealing. You're either a sheep or a wolf.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Not every MMO is created like WOW/LOTRO/EQ/WAR/etc. In AC, UO, EVE, Shadowbane and other MMOs with item drop on death, gear and loot is a lot more accessible. In each of those, it is (for SB, was) very common to have multiple sets of gear. based on what you'll be fightinfg, the role you'll be playing in the battle and what you expect your enemy to bring.
The inventory systems, crafting, loot access, importance of gear in battle and many other factors of the game are also very different from the mainstream MMO design in order to accommodate such gameplay. In your mainstream MMO, gear is your lifeblood. If a max level WOW player lost all their gear in a battle, that would probably be grounds for a massive ragequit considering the time and effort they put into getting it. In UO or EVE Online, gear is a consumable. The expectation is that it will be lost in battle. Does that make the loss meaningless if it can be repalced? Nope. To use a RL analogy, if a person has a few thousand in the bank and they take a few hundred of 'play money' to Vegas, they (if they are remotely lucid and rational) expect to lose some or all of that money but their goal is to either see how long they can keep it in play or if they can turn it into more than what they started with. Describing the thrill and fun of full loot PvP is very difficult. It's like trying to describe to people why bungie jumping or a roller coaster is a rush. while these activities are far more extreme than bringing your dev inscribed silver broadsword to full loot PvP battle, the nature of the attraction is similar. If you think about it, bungie jumping is something that a human being should either find a boring waste of time or something to stay the hell away from - the thrill is in the feeling of risk and the fun is in knowing you can do it again tomorrow.
Most full loot games play very differently from other MMOs - the goals, risks, rewards and core design are drastically different.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
dusn't have to be pull loot, just consequenses for engaging in pvp if you lose. Like SWG had 10% durability los on cloning ( and armor would be gone when it reaches 0)
somthing like that is nice to
I love ful loot games and the biggest misconception people have is they use the time it takes to get gear in a game like WoW to a full loot. It is not the case, in full loot games gear is basically thrown at you. Most I ever lose is 20 minutes of farming as I bank constantly. Take Darkfall, most people run around in Bone, takes about a day or two of tailoring to make it and it is cheap. Then you have dragon/Infernal a bit harder to get but still not that hard. Get in a good clan and they will gear you up. It is so easy to get gear in these games that if you rage dieing then full loot is not for you. Full loot has a very small community and we love it the way it is.
I play Darkfall possible 2 hours a day, maybe, if the wife and kids are content and my workload is done. I possibly lose more gear then most as I am not very good. But I LOVE IT, I would not trade full loot for anything.
Full loot is not for everyone EXCPECIALLY if you attach your self to the pixels...
What I ment was that these type of games garner a high number of those type in comparison to other games. The same with PvP vs PvE servers. It is not about the loot, but causing grief and getting pleasure from doing so.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
I know everyone will probably hate on me for saying this, but I really like Runescape's system of:
A) having the wilderness, so you had your non-pvp areas and then your specific pvp area that is still huuuuuge and has level 1 wilderness level 2 etc. so you can only attack someone that is within that level range of your level +/- the wilderness level.
C) If you do attack anyone first you are flagged with a skull for a period of time and will lose all items on death
D) There is a prayer that allows you to retain 1 extra item of highest value on death
Honestly Runescape is the game I had the most enjoyable pvp experience out of any game I've ever played.
/Flame on!
The problem with Full Loot PVP for me is that the risk/reward balance isn't really there.
Proponents like to say that they have the same risk of losing their stuff as anyone else, but this really isn't the case. They have, in concept, the same win/loss chance as anyone else. However, they end up playing this like the casino does in vegas. They mitigate their losses, and maximise the risk for other people.
If someone just got done hunting, they are loaded up with the spoils of their game. The Advocate generally has just whats needed to kill someone on. Advantage: Advocate. If the hunter wins, the advocate is out the bare minimum investment, which generally in games that have full loot, isn't that high. If the hunter loses, they are out everything that they've got on them which they are trying to deliver to the bank/market. Generally, this is worth much more than the Advocates stuff.
By "playing smart" the advocate makes much more reward than they ever actually risk at the game. And as such, the risk/reward balance is off.
The only way to balance this behavior is to increase long-term risk of the Full-Loot PVP playstyle. Just like other criminals (that is what they are playing, bandits/outlaws) the high rewards come with a very serious downside. In RL its often death or long-term prison sentences. In a Full Loot Game, I don't know what the answer is...
So long, and thanks for all the fish!
well, i thought about system which would be full loot open pvp, but with pvp/nonpvp flags on players (switchable with cds) and while you would be still able to attack, kill and loot nonpvp player, it would give you murderer flag which would mean that for certain amount of online time each of your deaths from players would have chance to be perma death
Full Loot PVP is more exciting than no full loot. If you have more to lose you get that much more out of the experience. Now it won't work in games like WoW because the game is based on items... everybody loves their items(Pixels)
Anyone who has played old UO, Shadowbane and Darkfall online know that those pixels mean nothing. In fact many a war we ended up fighting naked on teh walls in Shadowbane because we could.
blah
That's only really applicable to gambler types. For non-gamblers they will get less out of the experience since they with more to lose they can't experiment as much.
Just to throw in my two cents -
I do enjoy full-loot PVP, and I am not a PVPer. I actively go out of my way to avoid PVP and am generally a crafter / hunter / gatherer type. Somehow I "doubt" this qualifies me as a sociopath.
What I like, is in some games full-loot PVP improves the community. People go out of their way to get to know their neighbors, other people nearby, etc. However this is a fine balance that depends on other game mechanics - in some cases it just turns into a mindless mass of PVP where mass slaughter is the only purpose of the game.
Lately I've been playing Haven & Hearth which not only has full-loot PVP but also permadeath. And it does make you paranoid. But I also enjoy teaming up with other people I meet, carving out a tiny place in the wilderness to keep us safe, etc. In some ways it means more knowing you could lose it at any time.
I've also played my share of WoW, Rift, etc, and I enjoy those too - it's just a different dynamic.
First off you have to get out of the mindset that gear is supposed to make you better. In a FFA PVP w/full loot game this isn't the case. It's not the sword that makes a player great it's the hand that wields it. In most full loot games there are no '+10 Swords of Ultimate Uberness' or anything like that... a sword is just a sword. It's the player's skill combined with the character's abilities that define them. Now this doesn't mean that there isn't better gear but the bonuses for better gear are much smaller than in a gear centric game. The difference between an Iron Sword and a Steel Sword are not that much.
What this means is loosing your gear isn't nearly the loss you might think it is as you can get more gear and be up and running again in a matter of 10-15 minutes if you play smart. What they can't loot are the most important factors in the game and what you strive to make better... Your character's abilities and your skill at playing him/her.
Bren
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Ye i agree with Bren, full loot game usually don't see items the same way as other usual mmos. Those mmo are called "non gear based" mmos. But for sure those kind are pretty rare since Bart study was adored the dev teams around the world and began to make "archeiver only" mmos with EQ and after.
A completely different viewpoint to Full Loot PVP:
A basic game situation: I'm at point A and the treasure is at point B. What makes it interesting for me to play? Not the treasure by itself, but getting to the treasure. More difficult it is to get to the treasure more fun I will have. The difficulty can be increased in the following way:
1. you have some mobs between point A and B
2. you have some bosses between point A and B
3. you have PVP: players are much more unpredictable then AI of NPCs and harder to beat
3. you have Full Loot PVP (that's the hardest difficulty)
It's the same as in single-player games, where you have different levels of difficulty. Some like to play at the easiest level, some like to play at the hardest level. In MMORPGs some like to play PVE, some like to play PVP and some like to play Full Loot PVP.
I'd imagine that, for that to be the case, there'd have a be numerous moves, fighting stances, etc. for that to work. Otherwise, it would seem to me that it's whoever gets off the most "clicks", combined with who does the "run in circles dance" with bunnyhopping.
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Also just to throw in a comment about it being "gamblers" who like full-loot PVP - maybe? But I actually strongly dislike casino-gambling because it's pretty clearly statistically weighted against the end player.
In gaming, the 'odds' are to some extent what you make of them - how much you prepare, how well you know your class (or abilities), how you approach new situations. If we're comparing that to straight gambling, then any kind of risk in life is the same kind of gamble - changing jobs, getting married, raising a child. There is a lot at risk in these situations if you 'screw it up'. But I'm not convinced that makes people who do these things some kind of hardcore gambling addict.
I actually left to EQ, and many people at the time, due to UO having horrible lag and rubberbanding. They were having bad problems at the wrong time.
People could be bigger jerks in the non-ffa pvp area at first also, imo.
I didn't like the new lands/rules.
I wasn't a huge pvper either, I did a lot of crafting, pve type stuff.
EQ was a new/cool experience though, with the 3d.
The appeal for me is the intensity, and I think that's why most people don't enjoy it. Having to constantly look over your shoulder and be aware of your surroundings requires the gamer to actually pay attention and think on their feet, which is something most of us aren't used to (especially since a large majority of MMO's don't require this of you). The reason I mention this is because full loot usually comes in games that have FFA PvP, and though you may play a themepark on a PvP server, you're not actually ever going to lose anything of value, so the intensity simply doesn't exist unless you're extremely competitive and can't stand respawning from time to time. With full loot, the risk is what provides that atmospheric presence of danger while you're traversing the world or doing whatever it is you might be doing, and the worlds that offer it are ultimately far more interesting to me.
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
This is exactly why full-body looting makes for bland and repetitive PvP. Rare and valuable items either don't exist or end up never getting used, and whatever gear you manage to loot from opponents is likely to be not much different than the same low-end armor you're already wearing. Crafting becomes a tedious chore, as you end up creating the same gear over and over rather than gradually aiming for a masterpiece that will give a player a serious advantage in PvP. The only real system of progression for playing these kinds of games are agonizing skill growth setups that reward players with a slow stat climb simply for doing the same combat tasks for hours on end.
In real life the guy who invested the time and money to arm themselves with an assault rifle will have a large advantage in combat over the person who comes in with a handful of rocks. Now it may just happen that the opponent may be incredibly skilled at throwing rocks, and thus win anyways... but there has to be a balance between the two, good gear should be able to make up for lower player levels AND vice versa. Saying that "a weapon is just a weapon" in this situation is just ridiculous.
All of these FFA PvP and full loot games do have weapons that are far better than standard items, and the players you see using them are the ones skilled enough to keep them. I understand what you're trying to get at, I think you're right to some degree, but full loot PvP is anything but bland and repetitive. If anything, especially in open world environments or in a game with territory control, there's far more at stake. That's why I prefer full loot. It's certainly not for everyone.
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
for me open pvp "with looting only what is in your bags if you die " are great it makes players group more..lvl more ..farm more..and doing all this while knowing that there may be gankers out there waiting to strike ...meaning haveing a scout to "really" scout and "really" trac ...haveing someone that can cure or dispell / protect you and even maybe someone to "evac" you and you team when its needed ...it brings the sence of "playing" together what 100% of mmo's of today are missing...instead we are stuck with single player mmo's that are loaded with area / arena type pvp that are utter BS..i am a huge fan of SHADOWBANE and hands down it was the greatest >imo< open pvp game evar! yes it lacked in some areas but it was well in the way of going down a great path to set new and better standards for up coming mmo's that would have pvp ...then rolled around wow..thats another story in its self
Allowing rare and valuable weapons in full-loot PvP games can work if the players are forced to follow the laws of physical reality- not being able to log off and vanish the instant your character is about to die is a good example. Also, a lot of these full-loot games tend to have horribly unbalanced combat systems (Darkfall comes to mind), which makes using these rare items a bit of a crapshoot, as a single misclick or bit of server lag can result in death no matter how "skilled" you are. Who wants to risk using these items when there's no guarantee that they'll even have an impact in combat?
And finally there is the inevitable tendency of the players in these types of games to gather into huge alliances that form an uneasy peace with each other, all due to a paranoia over losing gear and the realization that staying a carebear is far more profitable than participating in combat in this type of game. This results in 80% of the hardcore playerbase reserving PvP to a few carefully controlled combat events rather than leaving the game as the big open PvP world that people signed up for in the first place.
IMO full loot drop made a person play even better, it gave a sense of peril that games today don't even touch. AC being a prime example...sink or swim live or die.Nothing more satisfying then looting something that a person needs or wants and them begging for it back.
Og4Life
As I mentioned before, not every MMO is a WOW variant, Zolgar. Outside of the standard cooldown-based zero-collision battleground combat you find in the various mainstream MMOs there are games where pre-planning, formation, recon, territory ownership, intel gathering and other such aspects come into play. Also, games with full loot PVP, due to the nature of the rest of the mechanics in the game combined with that one, are often prone to having more diplomatic gameplay. From Puzzle Pirates to EVE Online a sharp and silvery tongues are just as deadly and effective as sharp and silvery swords, however when faced with a lich I would certainly choose the silver sword over a silver tongue any day. Licking the undead is just a bad idea in any scenario.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre