I have watched more videos and read more articles than I care to admit, and in all honesty, I wonder if GW2 will be perhaps too different - which is not a bad thing.
This is a game for those that want to dodge attacks with their controller and love online shooters. This is a game for those that do not like to wait for others nor grind. This is not a game for those that prefer a relaxing game-play. This is not a game for those that like mounts. This is not a game for those that like gambling/raiding for unique drops and powerful gear. And maybe to ANET's chagrin, this game is not for those that solely love being a dedicated support/tank class: Period.
As for me, I think I might get the game, but I can understand some of the cringes a critic might have when a GW2 superfan touts:
“Guild Wars 2 will cater to you support types! You will love it because it is strategically unique and proactive! But uh... you won't technically be supporting more than anyone else. Why would you want to anyway?! Healing is boring! And no one actually likes playing heal-bar whac-a-mole!"
Again, I understand why such a comment might spark a little anger. We all know that Guild Wars 2 has a lot of potential beauty going for it, but there is no need to either 1) lie about catering to people who love being a dedicated role and 2) insult people who like something. This would be like someone selling UFC tickets as opera tickets. And then once the person showed up to the event, telling them that "Music is played sometimes! Fighting is way more exciting anyway! Feel free to shout! And what kind of dope would like the opera? It's boring!"
And that is where it comes down to: Preference. My mother absolutely loves Sid Meier's Civilization series. However, she really dislikes real time strategy games. ANET, along with some gung-ho fans, are in error with their "Healing is boring." blanket declarations because many people actually love that play-style, ...but, I get it. This is how ANET is selling their product to people who like a specifically different play-style. Preference is exactly why PvEers love a degree of predictability and the ability to relax in a game. Preference is exactly why open pvpers love the thrill of danger at any given moment.
GW2 looks to be geared for a certain audience and honestly, I think it is better that way. The PVP looks like it will be, crosses fingers, possibly the most balanced mmo to date.
Fully agreed with everything you just wrote. I think Arenanet and GW 2 are catering to a spezific crowd also, devs many times stated that they want FPS like elements using CoD, Halo and BF as examples. For me its not just the theres will be no healer thing (although its my biggest turn off) its also the fact that you can't excel in your chosen role cause everyone can do nearly as good as you, so whats the point of having a class system then? Why not go with a skill based system were everyone can build his own "class".
Personally speaking I think they are really trying to be too different and by accomplishing that Anet is targeting a special crowd: you can everything but you don't get advantages or will get a real reward for being good in your role/group playing.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play." "Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
Sounds like this is an MMOFPS rather than an MMORPG?
Fact yes and no the combat system is more like an FPS (dodging, shooting while running instant weapon change...) I would describe as a fantasy onlinegame with heavily FPS influence.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play." "Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
Healing class is fun for some people... not having it really is kind of... meh... to be honest. Sure, there isn't any 'formula' stating that they are needed, but lets face it, some people like the aspect of being able to heal and support. Personally one of my favorite class types are the supportive/buffers. Sure, not nessisarily placing as healers, I tend to like them for their ability to provide some support like buffs or maybe light regenerating heals.
"Healer" just tends to be a fun type of class to be for people. I find it fun to play at times since its a change form the normal combat types you see. Not saying its good to have a healer that just watches bars and clicks heals, but its nice to have the option to be supportive and not nessisarily playing gung-ho agressive with just random occasions were you might support an ally.
Healers I feel are great to have in a game and its a type people like. Rather then shun it they should be made to be more active and brought into light in a more complex way. That being said, cause they aren't actively 'around' shouldn't be a reason not to play the game exclusively.
Fully agreed with everything you just wrote. I think Arenanet and GW 2 are catering to a spezific crowd also, devs many times stated that they want FPS like elements using CoD, Halo and BF as examples. For me its not just the theres will be no healer thing (although its my biggest turn off) its also the fact that you can't excel in your chosen role cause everyone can do nearly as good as you, so whats the point of having a class system then? Why not go with a skill based system were everyone can build his own "class".
Personally speaking I think they are really trying to be too different and by accomplishing that Anet is targeting a special crowd: you can everything but you don't get advantages or will get a real reward for being good in your role/group playing.
Well actually the combat system that GW2 brings is all about "having hands" instead of "having gear" or a OP build.
I find it infinitely more fun.
About what you said of not getting rewards for beeing good in your group....well GW2 will reward based on that,unlike other MMos where you get reward based on your luck on dice or by stupid "dkps"....
Oviously it will not be the game for everyone... but im so glad with how it is shaping.
I´m so sick of the so called "wow-clone" combat system: 1 Tank, 1 Healer & 3 Dps and...go go go!
Thnx god finally MMOs are changing that with games like GW2...
Sounds like this is an MMOFPS rather than an MMORPG?
GW2 will be like an MMOFPS for people that have never played and FPS and have no clue what an FPS plays like .
It still has tab targeting. It still has the large variety of abilities that RPGs are known for.
AFAIK the only differences it has from typical MMORPG combat is that you can dodge, which is NOT collision based, you just dodge and things "miss" you. You can fire abilities without first targeting someone and if it collides with them, they get hit. And the combat has a higher emphasis on player skill than gear/level.
Fully agreed with everything you just wrote. I think Arenanet and GW 2 are catering to a spezific crowd also, devs many times stated that they want FPS like elements using CoD, Halo and BF as examples. For me its not just the theres will be no healer thing (although its my biggest turn off) its also the fact that you can't excel in your chosen role cause everyone can do nearly as good as you, so whats the point of having a class system then? Why not go with a skill based system were everyone can build his own "class".
Personally speaking I think they are really trying to be too different and by accomplishing that Anet is targeting a special crowd: you can everything but you don't get advantages or will get a real reward for being good in your role/group playing.
Ha, thanks! I guess this old (and now zombied) topic got me thinking a bit.
Originally posted by Purutzil
Healing class is fun for some people... not having it really is kind of... meh... to be honest. Sure, there isn't any 'formula' stating that they are needed, but lets face it, some people like the aspect of being able to heal and support. Personally one of my favorite class types are the supportive/buffers. Sure, not nessisarily placing as healers, I tend to like them for their ability to provide some support like buffs or maybe light regenerating heals.
"Healer" just tends to be a fun type of class to be for people. I find it fun to play at times since its a change form the normal combat types you see. Not saying its good to have a healer that just watches bars and clicks heals, but its nice to have the option to be supportive and not nessisarily playing gung-ho agressive with just random occasions were you might support an ally.
Healers I feel are great to have in a game and its a type people like. Rather then shun it they should be made to be more active and brought into light in a more complex way. That being said, cause they aren't actively 'around' shouldn't be a reason not to play the game exclusively.
Yup. I love playing dedicated support roles in a few mmos, and even look forward to doing so in future. But, it is nice to have variety and GW2 certainly looks to bring different to the table. Quite honestly, I am just excited that a game like GW2 is coming along because the future of MMO's will also be implementing similiar and new innovative ideas, and that is just fun to think about.
Fully agreed with everything you just wrote. I think Arenanet and GW 2 are catering to a spezific crowd also, devs many times stated that they want FPS like elements using CoD, Halo and BF as examples. For me its not just the theres will be no healer thing (although its my biggest turn off) its also the fact that you can't excel in your chosen role cause everyone can do nearly as good as you, so whats the point of having a class system then? Why not go with a skill based system were everyone can build his own "class".
Personally speaking I think they are really trying to be too different and by accomplishing that Anet is targeting a special crowd: you can everything but you don't get advantages or will get a real reward for being good in your role/group playing.
Honestly it doesn't sound like you've looked into GW2 much at all. Every class is different, very different.
Sure a Warrior can use ranged weapons and melee weapons but they don't get pets and traps like Rangers do.
No class is going to be able to do the exact same thing as another especially in the same way.
You should probably do a bit more research into the game before joining in on discussions about it. Your way off on just about everything you posted.
This wasn't a flame or an attack it was merely an attempt at being a bit helpful.
I don't think that it might take as much work as you think. Understand here that I agree with the overall sentiment of your post and many little details, but the thing is is that if a learning curve is correct, and each new game mechanic is introduced in steps, then I think that a gamer can get good at a game even when just playing it casually. A good game can teach the gamer to do that. A bad game is either A) overly difficult due to bad control schemes and/or not teaching the player how to play over a balanced learning curve, or overlly easy due to the game not bothering with fleshing out a decent learning curve or even a tutorial, it just makes the game easiy enough so even someone who doesn't have a clue how it works can play.
There's an example out there right now that shows how it can be done right without inviting either of the scenarios above, it's what I'm playing right now and will be playing until Guild Wars 2 comes out, and it's the game I'm hoping GW2 will build off of: Champions Online. CO still has a wheelbarrow full of issues, it still has quests, but what it also has is very active combat. It also has a really unique combat system which involves setups and on next hit powers. At the start it's easy but as you learn more they ramp up the difficulty. And for all instanced missions there are difficulty settings that range from Normal to Elite. So whilst you may be doing Normal difficulty early on, later in the game you may be playing Elite.
It really, really works.
And Champions Online isn't a simple game to master, either, but it is simple starting out, it's got that down. For example, my gadgeteer over time has become increasingly more complex, but because they've given me new things to play with over time rathe than just spamming me with so many new spells and so many new ranks of new spells that I don't know where I am... well, instead of that it's just more balanced. I think it's every 4-5 levels you get a new power, and the max level is 40.
Here's an example of the complexity:
I have support drones. When I summon these they start healing me, but they have an 'alternate mode' button which switches them out of heal mode and into attack mode. It takes a few seconds for them to switch. In attack mode they can do this laser thing that pushes back melee characters. I toggle the bots depending on what I'm fighting. If I'm taking on a large crowd or dealing with a ranged person, they're in support mode, but if I'm taking on a boss with limited range or melee goons, I put them in attack mode and they start pushing them away from me. They can be toggled back and forth at wll, but as I said it taks a few seconds for them to do so. They also have health bars and can be killed, if they are killed I have to resummon them.
I have munitions bots which are very mobile and can aid me in taking stuff down, but when they're able to move they can be easily knocked around and their DPS isn't as great as it is when in turret mode. Yep, they can be transformed too. The munitions bots have a toggle that turns them into turrets which works like above, but when in turret mode they can't move. So this leads to interesting tactics. Either you can stay next to your turrets and let your healing drones heal them and you (healing drones can be upgraded to do AoE heals) or you can drop them in corridors, hit a mob so they chase you, and force a group of mobs to have to deal with them before they get to you.
The gadgetteer has an orbital cannon, but it has to be charged up, it has a long charge time in which you are completely defenseless, and then it takes time to actually acquire its target. If the target moves within that time it doesn't do as much damage, so you really have to either hit first with that or snare your target so that they cannot run out of range of its first blast. it has an advantage as well where once it's done its initial blast it'll start chasing people around, that's a very nice advantage. If you use it as the first strike in a room and then pull back, it can go around mopping up a lot of people before they even know what's hit them.
I have a heal named Bionic Shielding. It's a shield that lasts for a time and then almost completely replenishes my health, but I mustn't die when the shield is up, because... well, then I can't reap the healing beneftis. There's also an advantage that allows you to return the damage you receive via it as an electrical feedback, so it can be good to try and stay alive near a large group whilst blocking, and perhaps letting your turrets just get in the way of anything that's trying to kill you.
I have a blaster which does tap damage but when charged up it can trip enemies over, interrupting them.
That blaster, if tap-spammed, has a small chance of turning a foe into a teddy bear (no, really), thus greatly reducing their attack and defense.
I have an AoE gun that does a similar thing but much less damage.
I have a skill named toxic nanites, it applies a nasty toxic debuff but it works through a power, so I have to use one of the aforementioned guns with it.
I have a skill which makes my enemies shrink and myself grow, whilst this is active the shrunk foe(s) is (are) weakened and I'm strengthened. This is especially handy to get off on a boss, especially if you can manage to chain it with tap spams to try and pull off a teddy bear debuff.
And so on, and so on.
Now what's nice about this is that I started out with just my zappy guns, and they introduced new mechanics every once in a while, giving me time to actually learn to master all of that. One thing with the gadgeteer is that you absolutely have to be mobile, sometimes you have to draw groups away from turrets, sometimes you have to draw them to turrets, and you have to try and split them up so you can let turrets concentrate on one group whilst you concentrate on another. Via this method I'm able to solo dungeons on Very Hard, and sometimes even Elite, and consider that the Gadgeteer is a support class. Now I'm a casual player but I have been told a bunch of times that I'm a surprisingly good one. But I think that's a merit that's more the game's than anyone elses.
Now, see, I think GW2 is doing this.
in Guild Wars 2 you'll be learning new weapon skills as you play. So you'll start out with just a few for your weapons, and I think perhaps that the utility slots will start out locked, but as time goes on you'll gain more skills for your weapons and you'll unlock utility slots. If ArenaNet can balance this right as Cryptic did, then the learning curve will simply let people get good over time. They just have to be careful about how they introduce new mechanics and the timing. They have to give people chance to learn one mechanic before they try taking on another.
Champions Online's archetypes do precisely this, they allow people a safe learning curve in which they can master thier powers.
If GW2 can pull off that sort of thing, then you don't even have to engage in repetitive play or work to get good, becoming good will just happen organically. See, being good in an RPG means that you understand the mechanics of all the tools at your disposal. A poor game, and I could name one, spams you with new spells and things so that you end up with multiple bars of shit on your screen that you barely know how to use. That's bad design, right there. Fewer abilities but with more varied and complex mechanics works better, because people can learn how to use them in different ways as time goes on.
I think that some games introduce a problem wherein your head explodes because you've just barely started using skill 31 when you're given skill 37. Champions Online keeps this number down and introduces new skills slowly.
What I'm getting at is that I think a good difficulty curve makes for good players. Not work or repetitiion. That's the only thing I disagree with. If a game involves work and repetition to be good then it's badly designed. If a game can be played by macros then it's badly designed. But if you can get good at a game which is difficult simply by the merit of having been given chance to learn and fefel your way through it as the game goes on? That's good design.
Then the "I am a Dual Blader" comes along, pops lock n load, and spams dragon's wrath. Then again I haven't played in over a year, mainly because the game was a joke when it came to balance.
Didn't take it as an insult but believe me I've watched,read and listened to some things about this game.
Devs and even Johanson stated, that almost everyone can do stuff like healing, tanking just in different ways, so there wont be your strict class roles with all the advantages and disadvantages this will bring. I'm not discussing wheter or not thats a good thing cause to each their own but from my experience (ie. Rift with such flexible systems) if you can take on more roles excelling in one specific role will be that much harder especially if there is no dedicated healer.
I've been on record saying while this game will not be for me I applaud Arenanet for trying something different just hope for something more challenging and with a skillbased instead of profession based system.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play." "Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
I have watched more videos and read more articles than I care to admit, and in all honesty, I wonder if GW2 will be perhaps too different - which is not a bad thing.
This is a game for those that want to dodge attacks with their controller and love online shooters. This is a game for those that do not like to wait for others nor grind. This is not a game for those that prefer a relaxing game-play. This is not a game for those that like mounts. This is not a game for those that like gambling/raiding for unique drops and powerful gear. And maybe to ANET's chagrin, this game is not for those that solely love being a dedicated support/tank class: Period.
As for me, I think I might get the game, but I can understand some of the cringes a critic might have when a GW2 superfan touts:
“Guild Wars 2 will cater to you support types! You will love it because it is strategically unique and proactive! But uh... you won't technically be supporting more than anyone else. Why would you want to anyway?! Healing is boring! And no one actually likes playing heal-bar whac-a-mole!"
Again, I understand why such a comment might spark a little anger. We all know that Guild Wars 2 has a lot of potential beauty going for it, but there is no need to either 1) lie about catering to people who love being a dedicated role and 2) insult people who like something. This would be like someone selling UFC tickets as opera tickets. And then once the person showed up to the event, telling them that "Music is played sometimes! Fighting is way more exciting anyway! Feel free to shout! And what kind of dope would like the opera? It's boring!"
And that is where it comes down to: Preference. My mother absolutely loves Sid Meier's Civilization series. However, she really dislikes real time strategy games. ANET, along with some gung-ho fans, are in error with their "Healing is boring." blanket declarations because many people actually love that play-style, ...but, I get it. This is how ANET is selling their product to people who like a specifically different play-style. Preference is exactly why PvEers love a degree of predictability and the ability to relax in a game. Preference is exactly why open pvpers love the thrill of danger at any given moment.
GW2 looks to be geared for a certain audience and honestly, I think it is better that way. The PVP looks like it will be, crosses fingers, possibly the most balanced mmo to date.
I think the part in orange is incorrect and that that's where your issue is.
In GW2 you have a limited skill bar. Being able to do one role well means you have to give up some of the ability to do other things. While it's true you can't be a full time 100% healbot, you can definitely adopt a support build.
Players also have the ability to trait these skills to modify them further toward damage or support. That's what it's about. You can run a dungeon with 5 thieves or 5 anything, but they're not going to all be doing the same thing. They need to adopt different roles and work together. That might mean taking two different weapons so you can switch roles on the fly, or it might not.
To talk about the game in actual practice, here's an article from a journalist who got a chance to do a dungeon. http://www.killtenrats.com/2011/06/29/gwfanday-the-dungeon-gel/ He talks about how wordlessly the elementalist in the group started taking on a support role when they saw how aggressive the warrior and thief were, and that the writer then started taking on an AoE damaging role that the elementalist had given up.
I really do believe that if you join a group you can just say that you love playing a dedicated support class and you'd appreciate it if people should modify their builds to take that into account. Dedicated control might be harder due to the limitations on self healing and dodging, but keep in mind that people don't have to be under attack from the mob to provide control effects like you do with traditional MMO roles.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it."-Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
Not every game can sattisfy every player..... But this game is trying to make as much people happy with its gameplay as possible
I really like to core of this discussion : Not enough innovation versus to much innovation.....
For those people that have been wayting for a fresh wind ever since the rlease of EQ and DAoC, this might be it.... For those people that like to stick to the old and what they liked so far, this might be over the top...
I just think the game deserves an honest chance from people, because only after playing it for a longer amount of time, you can make a valid opinion about how many of these changes worked out in the long run...
Having no trinnity could be one of the things that turns certain players away from this game in the long run... We'll know for sure about this one year after the release
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
As for me, I think I might get the game, but I can understand some of the cringes a critic might have when a GW2 superfan touts:
“Guild Wars 2 will cater to you support types! You will love it because it is strategically unique and proactive! But uh... you won't technically be supporting more than anyone else. Why would you want to anyway?! Healing is boring! And no one actually likes playing heal-bar whac-a-mole!"
I think the part in orange is incorrect and that that's where your issue is.
gw2 wiki also discusses the support role -- and its mostly about helping others, not yourself
Some of you people don't really understand Guild Wars 2's take on combat roles and the trinity, do you? They are NOT losing the trinity. Instead, they are reformulating it and allowing many classes to perform different roles within the trinity depending on their skill setup. In Guild Wars 2, instead of having DPS, Tank, and Healer you have Damage, Control, and Support.
While there will probably not be as many healing tools available to the classes in GW2, there still will be people who focus more on playing Support than anything else. Still, I don't believe any class will have the tools necessary to completely take care of healing within a group as I believe ArenaNet is trying to get all the members of a party to become self-sustainable. The good part is that soloing and playing in open groups (Dynamic Events) will become easier as you are not dependent upon someone else's healing. This may bring about some issues as many people don't really want to heal. We will have to wait and see.
Originally posted by stealthbr Some of you people don't really understand Guild Wars 2's take on combat roles and the trinity, do you? They are NOT losing the trinity. Instead, they are reformulating it and allowing many classes to perform different roles within the trinity depending on their skill setup. In Guild Wars 2, instead of having DPS, Tank, and Healer you have Damage, Control, and Support. While there will probably not be as many healing tools available to the classes in GW2, there still will be people who focus more on playing Support than anything else. Still, I don't believe any class will have the tools necessary to completely take care of healing within a group as I believe ArenaNet is trying to get all the members of a party to become self-sustainable. The good part is that soloing and playing in open groups (Dynamic Events) will become easier as you are not dependent upon someone else's healing. This may bring about some issues as many people don't really want to heal. We will have to wait and see.
You're technically correct, but I think you're missing a critical distinction. ArenaNet isn't necessarily talking about getting rid of the trinity in terms of the roles that players can play in groups...as you pointed out there will still be damage, control, and support. The real difference is in how those roles are expressed in the class system. The latter aspect is really where they are eliminating the traditional holy trinity.
In a traditional holy trinity game, the roles of DPS, healing, and tanking map directly onto the classes. If you are a warrior, you tank in groups and raids and that's it. You tank. If you're a cleric, you heal, period. If there are any side utility abilities or whatever, they are usually very under-powered compared to your counterpart class which primarily fills that role.
It's this rigidity that leads to the problems with the system...being pigeon-holed, not being able to find the class you need to get a group started, sitting and waiting for a long time if you aren't the ideal choice for your chosen class's role. Never really being able to survive an encounter if your tank or healer goes down, etc.
Guild Wars 2 does things differently, not only in defining the group roles more broadly (there are lots of ways to support besides just dumping hit points on your group mates), but also (more importantly) in changing the way roles map to the professions. Professions are much more flexible, and can handle different roles depending on how the player wants to play, and how they specialize their character through traits, skill and weapon selection, etc.
So, the point is that although technically the group roles will still exist in a general form, no specific profession maps to any specific role. Players will be able to choose what they focus their character on - all during their development, and also within an individual encounter.
Imagine in a traditional holy trinity game if the warrior could suddenly stop tanking and heal someone else if it was needed in the middle of combat. Imagine if the person healing could tank for a few seconds by knocking the mob down to allow the warrior to do some CC. This is what Guild Wars 2 encounters will be like. There will be nothing stopping a player from choosing a profession and specialization based on the role they enjoy playing (like being support in a group), but there will also be flexibility...that character will be able to shift focus based on need during an encounter, and re-specialize if they want, without being totally useless in a group.
How a warrior can provide support is totally different from how an elementalist can provide support, but both can do it effectively depending on the situation and the way the character is specced / equipped. No profession is tied to a single role exclusively, but all could likely fill each role in different ways, which is why the broader roles make more sense to describe GW2 (damage, support, control).
If you want to be a support character in groups and just provide support, you will certainly be able to. The unique thing about GW2 in this regard is that you will be able to pick from many different types of support depending on what profession you choose and how you specialize it. At the same time, you will be able to do additional things along with support as well... if you are in a group and they suddenly need someone to control the mob and you say, "No, I only support" they might be a little annoyed with you. Nobody is ONLY capable of doing one thing.
Some of you people don't really understand Guild Wars 2's take on combat roles and the trinity, do you? They are NOT losing the trinity. Instead, they are reformulating it and allowing many classes to perform different roles within the trinity depending on their skill setup. In Guild Wars 2, instead of having DPS, Tank, and Healer you have Damage, Control, and Support.
While there will probably not be as many healing tools available to the classes in GW2, there still will be people who focus more on playing Support than anything else. Still, I don't believe any class will have the tools necessary to completely take care of healing within a group as I believe ArenaNet is trying to get all the members of a party to become self-sustainable. The good part is that soloing and playing in open groups (Dynamic Events) will become easier as you are not dependent upon someone else's healing. This may bring about some issues as many people don't really want to heal. We will have to wait and see.
You're technically correct, but I think you're missing a critical distinction. ArenaNet isn't necessarily talking about getting rid of the trinity in terms of the roles that players can play in groups...as you pointed out there will still be damage, control, and support. The real difference is in how those roles are expressed in the class system. The latter aspect is really where they are eliminating the traditional holy trinity.
I stated that: "allowing many classes to perform different roles within the trinity depending on their skill setup."
In a traditional holy trinity game, the roles of DPS, healing, and tanking map directly onto the classes. If you are a warrior, you tank in groups and raids and that's it. You tank. If you're a cleric, you heal, period. If there are any side utility abilities or whatever, they are usually very under-powered compared to your counterpart class which primarily fills that role.
It's this rigidity that leads to the problems with the system...being pigeon-holed, not being able to find the class you need to get a group started, sitting and waiting for a long time if you aren't the ideal choice for your chosen class's role. Never really being able to survive an encounter if your tank or healer goes down, etc.
Guild Wars 2 does things differently, not only in defining the group roles more broadly (there are lots of ways to support besides just dumping hit points on your group mates), but also (more importantly) in changing the way roles map to the professions. Professions are much more flexible, and can handle different roles depending on how the player wants to play, and how they specialize their character through traits, skill and weapon selection, etc.
So, the point is that although technically the group roles will still exist in a general form, no specific profession maps to any specific role. Players will be able to choose what they focus their character on - all during their development, and also within an individual encounter.
Imagine in a traditional holy trinity game if the warrior could suddenly stop tanking and heal someone else if it was needed in the middle of combat. Imagine if the person healing could tank for a few seconds by knocking the mob down to allow the warrior to do some CC. This is what Guild Wars 2 encounters will be like. There will be nothing stopping a player from choosing a profession and specialization based on the role they enjoy playing (like being support in a group), but there will also be flexibility...that character will be able to shift focus based on need during an encounter, and re-specialize if they want, without being totally useless in a group.
How a warrior can provide support is totally different from how an elementalist can provide support, but both can do it effectively depending on the situation and the way the character is specced / equipped. No profession is tied to a single role exclusively, but all could likely fill each role in different ways, which is why the broader roles make more sense to describing GW2 (damage, support, control).
Yes, indeed. Most of the older MMORPG's suffer from this problem. The thing with Guild Wars 2, however, is that since players are limited to 10 skills at a given time, if they are spec'd to do more Damage, they won't be able to fully optimize themselves on the fly to perform a Support role or a Control role. The only skills they will be able to change mid-combat will be their first 5 skills related to their weapon choice.
Riiight because we ALL should be locked into the traditional trinity of games and not play anything else. And this is beside ALL of the problems that every dev team has had in trying to balance healing with damage for healers to allow you to level/solo with them outside of the dungeon setting.
You cannot be a healer. You cannot be a tank. Period. They've already stated this as fact. You won't be able to fill your skillbar with heals alone, you won't be able to focus on any particular person and cast heals upon them. Your splash healing will help, but it will be inferior to the individuals self-heal. You won't be able to go toe-to-toe with any significant number of enemies and tank their damage. You will die if you do. Repeatedly. By design. You cannot tank.
What will you do then? You'll bring the pain onto the enemy with your skills that deal damage. You'll provide buffs and boons to allies with your skills. You'll minimize damage taken by using positioning, by dodging, by using skills that control the enemy such that they can't reach you to hurt you. You'll protect your allies with spells and shields put up strategically when the enemy tries to launch a major attack. You'll move, avoid, attack, counter attack. You'll be watching the battle and reacting to what you see is about to happen instead of reacting to what already happened.
The trinity is gone, folks. It's an archaic style of gameplay that has run it's course. All aspects of the trinity have been refined and combined back into the individual where they belong. Intelligence, awareness, reacting and responding. Working together like you've never worked together before... not as a role, but because you can and it's necessary to do so. You are your own trinity now. But more importantly, the sum will be much greater than the individual parts. Five people working together will always be greater than five alone.
You cannot be a healer. You cannot be a tank. Period. They've already stated this as fact. You won't be able to fill your skillbar with heals alone, you won't be able to focus on any particular person and cast heals upon them. Your splash healing will help, but it will be inferior to the individuals self-heal. You won't be able to go toe-to-toe with any significant number of enemies and tank their damage. You will die if you do. Repeatedly. By design. You cannot tank.
What will you do then? You'll bring the pain onto the enemy with your skills that deal damage. You'll provide buffs and boons to allies with your skills. You'll minimize damage taken by using positioning, by dodging, by using skills that control the enemy such that they can't reach you to hurt you. You'll protect your allies with spells and shields put up strategically when the enemy tries to launch a major attack. You'll move, avoid, attack, counter attack. You'll be watching the battle and reacting to what you see is about to happen instead of reacting to what already happened.
The trinity is gone, folks. It's an archaic style of gameplay that has run it's course. All aspects of the trinity have been refined and combined back into the individual where they belong. Intelligence, awareness, reacting and responding. Working together like you've never worked together before... not as a role, but because you can and it's necessary to do so. You are your own trinity now. But more importantly, the sum will be much greater than the individual parts. Five people working together will always be greater than five alone.
The Lord and Master hath spoken be warned. :P
Its going to be a very interesting game and I am looking forward to it. Being able to join in without the need to stand around and make groups then wait for a member to join for the next hour or so, is a great step in the right direction as far as i'm concerned.
Yes, indeed. Most of the older MMORPG's suffer from this problem. The thing with Guild Wars 2, however, is that since players are limited to 10 skills at a given time, if they are spec'd to do more Damage, they won't be able to fully optimize themselves on the fly to perform a Support role or a Control role. The only skills they will be able to change mid-combat will be their first 5 skills related to their weapon choice.
Not everything about a role is defined by skills. They will also be able to shift their tactics / movement / positioning to change what they are doing in the fight, and also how they play their skills off of what is available on the battlefield (environmental weapons and cross-profession combo fields).
Also most professions have secondary mechanics that provide more flexibility, like attunements for the ele and the tool belt for the engineer.
Being "fully optimized" for a specific role is likely to very rarely, if ever, be possible in GW2. The whole point is that you can be flexible in any number of ways, and that professions will be able to be effective enough in various roles so that players have real choices and no profession will be required or pointless in groups. There should be no "best" support profession, no "best" damage profession...they should all just be different, situational, and flexible. At least that's the ideal, I believe.
Comments
I have watched more videos and read more articles than I care to admit, and in all honesty, I wonder if GW2 will be perhaps too different - which is not a bad thing.
This is a game for those that want to dodge attacks with their controller and love online shooters. This is a game for those that do not like to wait for others nor grind. This is not a game for those that prefer a relaxing game-play. This is not a game for those that like mounts. This is not a game for those that like gambling/raiding for unique drops and powerful gear. And maybe to ANET's chagrin, this game is not for those that solely love being a dedicated support/tank class: Period.
As for me, I think I might get the game, but I can understand some of the cringes a critic might have when a GW2 superfan touts:
“Guild Wars 2 will cater to you support types! You will love it because it is strategically unique and proactive! But uh... you won't technically be supporting more than anyone else. Why would you want to anyway?! Healing is boring! And no one actually likes playing heal-bar whac-a-mole!"
Again, I understand why such a comment might spark a little anger. We all know that Guild Wars 2 has a lot of potential beauty going for it, but there is no need to either 1) lie about catering to people who love being a dedicated role and 2) insult people who like something. This would be like someone selling UFC tickets as opera tickets. And then once the person showed up to the event, telling them that "Music is played sometimes! Fighting is way more exciting anyway! Feel free to shout! And what kind of dope would like the opera? It's boring!"
And that is where it comes down to: Preference. My mother absolutely loves Sid Meier's Civilization series. However, she really dislikes real time strategy games. ANET, along with some gung-ho fans, are in error with their "Healing is boring." blanket declarations because many people actually love that play-style, ...but, I get it. This is how ANET is selling their product to people who like a specifically different play-style. Preference is exactly why PvEers love a degree of predictability and the ability to relax in a game. Preference is exactly why open pvpers love the thrill of danger at any given moment.
GW2 looks to be geared for a certain audience and honestly, I think it is better that way. The PVP looks like it will be, crosses fingers, possibly the most balanced mmo to date.
Key word: DEDICATED
Jiggly, OUT!
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/innovation
Oustanding first post, welcome to mmorpg.com
Fully agreed with everything you just wrote. I think Arenanet and GW 2 are catering to a spezific crowd also, devs many times stated that they want FPS like elements using CoD, Halo and BF as examples. For me its not just the theres will be no healer thing (although its my biggest turn off) its also the fact that you can't excel in your chosen role cause everyone can do nearly as good as you, so whats the point of having a class system then? Why not go with a skill based system were everyone can build his own "class".
Personally speaking I think they are really trying to be too different and by accomplishing that Anet is targeting a special crowd: you can everything but you don't get advantages or will get a real reward for being good in your role/group playing.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play."
"Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
Sounds like this is an MMOFPS rather than an MMORPG?
Fact yes and no the combat system is more like an FPS (dodging, shooting while running instant weapon change...) I would describe as a fantasy onlinegame with heavily FPS influence.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play."
"Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
Healing class is fun for some people... not having it really is kind of... meh... to be honest. Sure, there isn't any 'formula' stating that they are needed, but lets face it, some people like the aspect of being able to heal and support. Personally one of my favorite class types are the supportive/buffers. Sure, not nessisarily placing as healers, I tend to like them for their ability to provide some support like buffs or maybe light regenerating heals.
"Healer" just tends to be a fun type of class to be for people. I find it fun to play at times since its a change form the normal combat types you see. Not saying its good to have a healer that just watches bars and clicks heals, but its nice to have the option to be supportive and not nessisarily playing gung-ho agressive with just random occasions were you might support an ally.
Healers I feel are great to have in a game and its a type people like. Rather then shun it they should be made to be more active and brought into light in a more complex way. That being said, cause they aren't actively 'around' shouldn't be a reason not to play the game exclusively.
Well actually the combat system that GW2 brings is all about "having hands" instead of "having gear" or a OP build.
I find it infinitely more fun.
About what you said of not getting rewards for beeing good in your group....well GW2 will reward based on that,unlike other MMos where you get reward based on your luck on dice or by stupid "dkps"....
Oviously it will not be the game for everyone... but im so glad with how it is shaping.
I´m so sick of the so called "wow-clone" combat system: 1 Tank, 1 Healer & 3 Dps and...go go go!
Thnx god finally MMOs are changing that with games like GW2...
GW2 will be like an MMOFPS for people that have never played and FPS and have no clue what an FPS plays like
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It still has tab targeting. It still has the large variety of abilities that RPGs are known for.
AFAIK the only differences it has from typical MMORPG combat is that you can dodge, which is NOT collision based, you just dodge and things "miss" you. You can fire abilities without first targeting someone and if it collides with them, they get hit. And the combat has a higher emphasis on player skill than gear/level.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Ha, thanks! I guess this old (and now zombied) topic got me thinking a bit.
Yup. I love playing dedicated support roles in a few mmos, and even look forward to doing so in future. But, it is nice to have variety and GW2 certainly looks to bring different to the table. Quite honestly, I am just excited that a game like GW2 is coming along because the future of MMO's will also be implementing similiar and new innovative ideas, and that is just fun to think about.
Honestly it doesn't sound like you've looked into GW2 much at all. Every class is different, very different.
Sure a Warrior can use ranged weapons and melee weapons but they don't get pets and traps like Rangers do.
No class is going to be able to do the exact same thing as another especially in the same way.
You should probably do a bit more research into the game before joining in on discussions about it. Your way off on just about everything you posted.
This wasn't a flame or an attack it was merely an attempt at being a bit helpful.
Then the "I am a Dual Blader" comes along, pops lock n load, and spams dragon's wrath. Then again I haven't played in over a year, mainly because the game was a joke when it came to balance.
Didn't take it as an insult but believe me I've watched,read and listened to some things about this game.
Devs and even Johanson stated, that almost everyone can do stuff like healing, tanking just in different ways, so there wont be your strict class roles with all the advantages and disadvantages this will bring. I'm not discussing wheter or not thats a good thing cause to each their own but from my experience (ie. Rift with such flexible systems) if you can take on more roles excelling in one specific role will be that much harder especially if there is no dedicated healer.
I've been on record saying while this game will not be for me I applaud Arenanet for trying something different just hope for something more challenging and with a skillbased instead of profession based system.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play."
"Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
I think the part in orange is incorrect and that that's where your issue is.
In GW2 you have a limited skill bar. Being able to do one role well means you have to give up some of the ability to do other things. While it's true you can't be a full time 100% healbot, you can definitely adopt a support build.
Take for instance, http://gw2.luna-atra.fr/skills_tool/?lang=en&code=32f81562a6f1282b630ad31;321007832f82882a768b014e9&switch=2f276c5 All 5 mace/shield skills and 3 of the staff skills are support (or maybe a little control) oriented, as are all 5 others.
Compare to this much more aggressive scepter/torch and 2h hammer build. http://gw2.luna-atra.fr/skills_tool/?lang=en&code=32f83442f387cd2f276c5;32127852e337a62a803c414e9&switch=301ba9d
Players also have the ability to trait these skills to modify them further toward damage or support. That's what it's about. You can run a dungeon with 5 thieves or 5 anything, but they're not going to all be doing the same thing. They need to adopt different roles and work together. That might mean taking two different weapons so you can switch roles on the fly, or it might not.
To talk about the game in actual practice, here's an article from a journalist who got a chance to do a dungeon. http://www.killtenrats.com/2011/06/29/gwfanday-the-dungeon-gel/ He talks about how wordlessly the elementalist in the group started taking on a support role when they saw how aggressive the warrior and thief were, and that the writer then started taking on an AoE damaging role that the elementalist had given up.
I really do believe that if you join a group you can just say that you love playing a dedicated support class and you'd appreciate it if people should modify their builds to take that into account. Dedicated control might be harder due to the limitations on self healing and dodging, but keep in mind that people don't have to be under attack from the mob to provide control effects like you do with traditional MMO roles.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." -Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
Not every game can sattisfy every player..... But this game is trying to make as much people happy with its gameplay as possible
I really like to core of this discussion : Not enough innovation versus to much innovation.....
For those people that have been wayting for a fresh wind ever since the rlease of EQ and DAoC, this might be it.... For those people that like to stick to the old and what they liked so far, this might be over the top...
I just think the game deserves an honest chance from people, because only after playing it for a longer amount of time, you can make a valid opinion about how many of these changes worked out in the long run...
Having no trinnity could be one of the things that turns certain players away from this game in the long run... We'll know for sure about this one year after the release
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Well, thats for your friend to decide
gw2 wiki also discusses the support role -- and its mostly about helping others, not yourself
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Support
you still have to pick your 10 skills
yes players have the options to be different flavors of Control, Damage, Support
but you wont have access to all your skills at once
EQ2 fan sites
Necroing a thread that has been dead for almost 3 months?
My theme song.
Ahh necro thread. It slipped by me when i originally posted.
LOCK IT
Life IS Feudal
Some of you people don't really understand Guild Wars 2's take on combat roles and the trinity, do you? They are NOT losing the trinity. Instead, they are reformulating it and allowing many classes to perform different roles within the trinity depending on their skill setup. In Guild Wars 2, instead of having DPS, Tank, and Healer you have Damage, Control, and Support.
While there will probably not be as many healing tools available to the classes in GW2, there still will be people who focus more on playing Support than anything else. Still, I don't believe any class will have the tools necessary to completely take care of healing within a group as I believe ArenaNet is trying to get all the members of a party to become self-sustainable. The good part is that soloing and playing in open groups (Dynamic Events) will become easier as you are not dependent upon someone else's healing. This may bring about some issues as many people don't really want to heal. We will have to wait and see.
You're technically correct, but I think you're missing a critical distinction. ArenaNet isn't necessarily talking about getting rid of the trinity in terms of the roles that players can play in groups...as you pointed out there will still be damage, control, and support. The real difference is in how those roles are expressed in the class system. The latter aspect is really where they are eliminating the traditional holy trinity.
In a traditional holy trinity game, the roles of DPS, healing, and tanking map directly onto the classes. If you are a warrior, you tank in groups and raids and that's it. You tank. If you're a cleric, you heal, period. If there are any side utility abilities or whatever, they are usually very under-powered compared to your counterpart class which primarily fills that role.
It's this rigidity that leads to the problems with the system...being pigeon-holed, not being able to find the class you need to get a group started, sitting and waiting for a long time if you aren't the ideal choice for your chosen class's role. Never really being able to survive an encounter if your tank or healer goes down, etc.
Guild Wars 2 does things differently, not only in defining the group roles more broadly (there are lots of ways to support besides just dumping hit points on your group mates), but also (more importantly) in changing the way roles map to the professions. Professions are much more flexible, and can handle different roles depending on how the player wants to play, and how they specialize their character through traits, skill and weapon selection, etc.
So, the point is that although technically the group roles will still exist in a general form, no specific profession maps to any specific role. Players will be able to choose what they focus their character on - all during their development, and also within an individual encounter.
Imagine in a traditional holy trinity game if the warrior could suddenly stop tanking and heal someone else if it was needed in the middle of combat. Imagine if the person healing could tank for a few seconds by knocking the mob down to allow the warrior to do some CC. This is what Guild Wars 2 encounters will be like. There will be nothing stopping a player from choosing a profession and specialization based on the role they enjoy playing (like being support in a group), but there will also be flexibility...that character will be able to shift focus based on need during an encounter, and re-specialize if they want, without being totally useless in a group.
How a warrior can provide support is totally different from how an elementalist can provide support, but both can do it effectively depending on the situation and the way the character is specced / equipped. No profession is tied to a single role exclusively, but all could likely fill each role in different ways, which is why the broader roles make more sense to describe GW2 (damage, support, control).
If you want to be a support character in groups and just provide support, you will certainly be able to. The unique thing about GW2 in this regard is that you will be able to pick from many different types of support depending on what profession you choose and how you specialize it. At the same time, you will be able to do additional things along with support as well... if you are in a group and they suddenly need someone to control the mob and you say, "No, I only support" they might be a little annoyed with you. Nobody is ONLY capable of doing one thing.
Riiight because we ALL should be locked into the traditional trinity of games and not play anything else. And this is beside ALL of the problems that every dev team has had in trying to balance healing with damage for healers to allow you to level/solo with them outside of the dungeon setting.
You cannot be a healer. You cannot be a tank. Period. They've already stated this as fact. You won't be able to fill your skillbar with heals alone, you won't be able to focus on any particular person and cast heals upon them. Your splash healing will help, but it will be inferior to the individuals self-heal. You won't be able to go toe-to-toe with any significant number of enemies and tank their damage. You will die if you do. Repeatedly. By design. You cannot tank.
What will you do then? You'll bring the pain onto the enemy with your skills that deal damage. You'll provide buffs and boons to allies with your skills. You'll minimize damage taken by using positioning, by dodging, by using skills that control the enemy such that they can't reach you to hurt you. You'll protect your allies with spells and shields put up strategically when the enemy tries to launch a major attack. You'll move, avoid, attack, counter attack. You'll be watching the battle and reacting to what you see is about to happen instead of reacting to what already happened.
The trinity is gone, folks. It's an archaic style of gameplay that has run it's course. All aspects of the trinity have been refined and combined back into the individual where they belong. Intelligence, awareness, reacting and responding. Working together like you've never worked together before... not as a role, but because you can and it's necessary to do so. You are your own trinity now. But more importantly, the sum will be much greater than the individual parts. Five people working together will always be greater than five alone.
Oderint, dum metuant.
The Lord and Master hath spoken be warned. :P
Its going to be a very interesting game and I am looking forward to it. Being able to join in without the need to stand around and make groups then wait for a member to join for the next hour or so, is a great step in the right direction as far as i'm concerned.
Not everything about a role is defined by skills. They will also be able to shift their tactics / movement / positioning to change what they are doing in the fight, and also how they play their skills off of what is available on the battlefield (environmental weapons and cross-profession combo fields).
Also most professions have secondary mechanics that provide more flexibility, like attunements for the ele and the tool belt for the engineer.
Being "fully optimized" for a specific role is likely to very rarely, if ever, be possible in GW2. The whole point is that you can be flexible in any number of ways, and that professions will be able to be effective enough in various roles so that players have real choices and no profession will be required or pointless in groups. There should be no "best" support profession, no "best" damage profession...they should all just be different, situational, and flexible. At least that's the ideal, I believe.