I remember playing EQ and spending hours upon hours , day after day, camping single spots for XP or specific loot. That was a grind.
Gaining XP through storyline questing different locations, playing through flashpoints and operations, queing for warzones and ultimately getting into endgame open world PvP does not sound like grinding to me.
I'm curious about this too however i think most people on this thread missed the actual meaning of the OP's post. I think he's asking if at the end game will progression be a grind fest because we all know the news posts that the game will be a standard questline model with cutscenes, cinematics, and choice based phasing zones. The only thing NOT mentioned is end game content in the news postings. Will it require points, will it require all drops, will it require daily quests, will there be ample end game crafting items to be completely geared? Those are the questions i think need answered because no one has mentioned them AT ALL that i know of and i follow this pretty closely.
It'll be the same grind as in KOTOR and the Mass Effects. All of these are quest after quest. No one could like that.
It is funny you mention that. I kind of miss when quests where a bit more rare. I still remember a number of quests from FFXI and i played that game 7 years ago and i only played for 6 months, but out of my multiple years in eq2 i only recall the quest line for the prismatic. I really enjoy large epic quest chains, where each step reveals a little more about the world, as opposed to a myriad of quests at a hub that introduces me to 10 of each monster in the surrounding area. Is sifting through the text of a quest to kill 10 rats a grind, no not really , is sitting threw a cut scene for a quest to kill 10 rats a grind well only time will tell.
Originally posted by Shoju Originally posted by DarkPony Seeing how they tried to make every quest more interesting by voice overs and having a choice in conversations, I'd say; no.
Having an actor tell you to go and kill 10 space rats isn't really that much more interesting than reading it in a quest log.
But it's in Space! How can you possibly make space boring?! ... *looks to EVE Online*
Faction a tells you to kill 20 x of this choice are
1) kill 20 x of that +1 faction
2) tell it to **** itself -1 faction
3) don't do it 0 faction
4) kill 40x +2 faction a -2 faction b
If that's what it means by choices then that would be kind of alright. Could be like an approval ration per npc or per faction. The higher it is the more conversation opertunity becomes availavle.
If that's kind of what their planning than it's better than saying go here and kill this and go there and kill that etc.
Ok, so the question is: Is this game a grindfest? ... Grindfest usually means your out killing lots of things just to level because you either can't find any quests or you just don't like the quests you did find... so you are simply left to kill, kill, kill over and over again til you are sick of it.
Now as far as SWTOR goes, I have played it quite a bit and I can say that they have mastered the way that the quests are designed so that there is no grindfest.
#1. There are always quests... tons of them. And they are actually so fun and the story pulls you in so much that you are no longer concerned with getting to level cap because you are having a blast just questing! Also, the quests never seem petty... like: go kill 10 womp rats for no reason. Instead the quests seem alive and have real purpose. And because it is fully voiced and you actually have choices to make in each quest it makes the quests feel even more personal.
The quick answer: NO GRINDFEST IN SWTOR!, but if you want you can create one.
Well it's a RPG-fest, so yeah a lot of the more grindy tropes are there.
Sorta in a typical MMO way, also sorta in a single player PC RPG sorta way.
It's not so bad thanks to the story from what I hear. Some things sound really redundant to me, but I'd not exactly classify that as "grinding".
Maybe when the upper tier "tokens for equipment" end game is revealed then yeah- I'll always call that grindfest. Cheap way to add hours to a game by making people repeat content for rewards. I'd be real shocked if that's not in SWTOR.
I used to play MMOs like you, but then I took an arrow to the knee.
Ok, so the question is: Is this game a grindfest? ... Grindfest usually means your out killing lots of things just to level because you either can't find any quests or you just don't like the quests you did find... so you are simply left to kill, kill, kill over and over again til you are sick of it.
Now as far as SWTOR goes, I have played it quite a bit and I can say that they have mastered the way that the quests are designed so that there is no grindfest.
#1. There are always quests... tons of them. And they are actually so fun and the story pulls you in so much that you are no longer concerned with getting to level cap because you are having a blast just questing! Also, the quests never seem petty... like: go kill 10 womp rats for no reason. Instead the quests seem alive and have real purpose. And because it is fully voiced and you actually have choices to make in each quest it makes the quests feel even more personal.
The quick answer: NO GRINDFEST IN SWTOR!, but if you want you can create one.
Pretty much my thoughts as well, although I'll add one other: Even though it's not a grindy game, don't expect to powerlevel through it either. The game is paced so that the levelling process is very measured. It's a combination of the voiceovers, the size of the world, and the travelling you do in quests, but the levelling does not seem to go by very fast at all. And yet...you don't realize it because the storyline really sucks you in.
If they skip the cutscenes then they are doing it wrong. That doesn't negate your point but if you rush through games like this then your going to be missing the point of them.
They aren't to get to max level and grind out gear.
They aren't about server firsts (which is why there is no recognition beyond the community for getting one).
It's why you can't instant warp to locations and have to walk. The game is meant to be taken slow and steady.
Basically what i'm saying is if you skip through the cut-scenes then your time doesn't really count as the marker for how long the game normally is, as your not playing the game the way it's designed to be played. Kinda like playing an adventure game with the walk through on the next screen over and skipping all the dialogue.
Actually you CAN instant warp, this game is not a grindfest but this is not a slow pace game either. In 4 hours of game play im already lvl 11 of 50. I didnt rush it and i taked the time to listen all dialogs. So like most modern mmo i can reach lvl 50 in 1 or 2 weeks.
Gotta say in the beginning I felt the cinematics and voice overs added a whole new dimension to the game but after a while I found myself thinking "I dont care anymore just get on with the game". It was at this point I realized it was time for a break. But this is all in the speculation of one days time (and by that I mean like 8 hours of non-stop playing). It could've been also due to I haven't played a game for over 3 hours a day in a long time so who knows. But regardless, getting after it again tomorrow and hoping to find it being as refreshing as an experience as when I logged on the first time.
Ok, someone said SWTOR is like wow in the grind department. I want to point out that though I respect your opinion... this is definitely not the case.
Wow is a grindfest mainly because of the design of the game obviously. But what I mean is, because it is all quest text that no one wants to sit and read through, the quests have little to no meaning other than It's a way to get to the good stuff.... level cap. That is wow in a nutshell. When I played wow I had questhelper... I didn't read one single quest, I just did what I had to and endured through the levels so that I could get to endcap.
In SWTOR however, there is fully voiced quests that are really fun, exciting, and engaging. I actually plan on taking my time and having fun questing all the way til I have fun at endcap.
So basically, it's not a grindfest like wow, because what makes wow a grindfest to begin with is not a problem in SWTOR. Completely different quest design.
If they skip the cutscenes then they are doing it wrong. That doesn't negate your point but if you rush through games like this then your going to be missing the point of them.
They aren't to get to max level and grind out gear.
They aren't about server firsts (which is why there is no recognition beyond the community for getting one).
It's why you can't instant warp to locations and have to walk. The game is meant to be taken slow and steady.
Basically what i'm saying is if you skip through the cut-scenes then your time doesn't really count as the marker for how long the game normally is, as your not playing the game the way it's designed to be played. Kinda like playing an adventure game with the walk through on the next screen over and skipping all the dialogue.
Actually you CAN instant warp, this game is not a grindfest but this is not a slow pace game either. In 4 hours of game play im already lvl 11 of 50. I didnt rush it and i taked the time to listen all dialogs. So like most modern mmo i can reach lvl 50 in 1 or 2 weeks.
You could in two or three weeks. You would miss three quarters of the game if you did,
No i wont, like i said i listen to all dialog and do all quest i can find so how can i miss three quarter of the game?? Im not the king of gamer who rush trough end game, i explore and take the time to read and listen tthe quest but still the leveling system is way too fast. This is not the first game who adapt this kind of fast pace genre, there is nothing new there.
I think SWToR is kind of self-balancing on this score.
If you think SWToR is a grind then obviously you're not interested in story and one has to ask why exactly you're playing a story-driven MMO. You'll be faced with that grind until you develop the mental faculties required to make the decision that if you don't like story maybe story-driven games aren't what you should be spending your money on.
If you do like story then likely SWToR won't be a grind. And as a reward for the incredible mental effort required to come to the conclusion that if you like story you should play story-driven games you won't face any grind at all.
To put it extremely simple SWToR is a merging of tab-target MMO gameplay with Bioware-style storytelling. If you don't like either one then one has to ask why exactly you're playing this game. It's like ordering a pizza with extra cheese when you don't like cheese.
This isn't a game where end-game is looking to be completely different from the rest of the game. End-game will still carry a focus on story. How you complement that story is totally up to you. After the starting world there's instanced PvE, instanced PvP, world PvE (heroic quests) and world PvP (on PvP servers) to complement your story.
There's no do activity A which you hate till you're high-level with good gear so you can then finally do activity B which you really wanted to do. Whatever activities you love, as long as story is one of them, you can do from the start right after you finish the starter world (which should be very heavy on story as it's introducing the whole thing).
We are the bunny. Resistance is futile. ''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\ ( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o) (")("),,(")("),(")(")
GRIND actually stands for Great Rewards Inspire Numbing Design. You want XP? Then kill 10 rats. And the dev's job is done.
We actually want is BRAINS: Bad Rewards And I Never Stop (playing and paying). You want XP? Bad luck, you have to enjoy the game instead. And the dev's job just got harder.
Probally not, since the game is just a world of warcraft clone with voice acting and worse more boring combat. I'd honestly reccomend you wait for a trial, especally if your sick of/didn't like world of warcrafts gameplay since swtor is just the newest wow clone coming out. World of Warcraft is not known to be a grinder si I doubt swtor will be either. I tried swtor in a beta, and well I have to say I was not impressed with the game at all, it was a rather generic and fairly dull mmo with nothing that was really exciting or intersting. To me the voice acting was just a pain in the ass, and just made stuff take longer than it needed to. I don't need 5 mins of voice acting just to tell me to go kill 5 whomp rats or whatever they are called on Tantooine (as an example). SWToR honestly should have just been a single player game, with maybe a multiplayer mode like dragon age etc. Its not a good enough game to qualify as a mmo in my book. Of course people will buy it in droves, but I think they will end up dissapointed. I'm playing it smart, and gonna hold off for a trial to see if the game has gotten any better, but honestly, I don't expect much.
Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:
A. Proven right (if something bad happens)
or
B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)
Actually you CAN instant warp, this game is not a grindfest but this is not a slow pace game either. In 4 hours of game play im already lvl 11 of 50. I didnt rush it and i taked the time to listen all dialogs. So like most modern mmo i can reach lvl 50 in 1 or 2 weeks.
A week has 7x24 hours, two weeks has 336 hours, subtract some hours for sleeping and eating and in theory, yes, you can reach level cap within 2 weeks. There have been some wackos in other games who slept only for 4 hours a day for a whole week and played the rest of the time, some others who speed leveled a toon with 2 of them on rotation, so that'll make it also possible to have every hour of the day count as gameplay hour.
For most people that don't spend every waking hour playing the game or 80+ hours a week playing, I doubt they'll reach level 50 in that period of time.
I think it's pretty obvious that MMO gamers who have burnt themselves out on themepark MMO gameplay by extensively playing WoW or other themepark MMO's will not suddenly magically be freed of those feelings of (themepark) MMO fatigue or burn out. Also some people who never much liked themepark MMO's in the first place, I don't see them enjoy SWTOR that much either.
As for how how SWTOR will be received in the short term and long term, we'll see. I think it'll be pretty exciting to watch how the upcoming months will roll, it'll answer some remaining questions regarding the current MMO scene. There have been a lot of predictions on these forums, but let's be realistic, people on these exact forums have been predicting the doom and downfall within a year for WoW since 2007. Not really that trustworthy.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Comments
Okay this one i will give you, it is a STORY-fest.
One of the reasons i'm looking forward to it.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
It'll be the same grind as in KOTOR and the Mass Effects. All of these are quest after quest. No one could like that.
I think it will put the RPG back into mmorpg . About time too .
I remember playing EQ and spending hours upon hours , day after day, camping single spots for XP or specific loot. That was a grind.
Gaining XP through storyline questing different locations, playing through flashpoints and operations, queing for warzones and ultimately getting into endgame open world PvP does not sound like grinding to me.
I'm curious about this too however i think most people on this thread missed the actual meaning of the OP's post. I think he's asking if at the end game will progression be a grind fest because we all know the news posts that the game will be a standard questline model with cutscenes, cinematics, and choice based phasing zones. The only thing NOT mentioned is end game content in the news postings. Will it require points, will it require all drops, will it require daily quests, will there be ample end game crafting items to be completely geared? Those are the questions i think need answered because no one has mentioned them AT ALL that i know of and i follow this pretty closely.
Lol at players than that complain aion is a grind.To the op, most likely concerning end-game, yes, you will need to grind for better gears at endgame, and running the same instance over and over.
to confirm, lets wait.for nda to drop. hopefully soon.
RIP Orc Choppa
It is funny you mention that. I kind of miss when quests where a bit more rare. I still remember a number of quests from FFXI and i played that game 7 years ago and i only played for 6 months, but out of my multiple years in eq2 i only recall the quest line for the prismatic. I really enjoy large epic quest chains, where each step reveals a little more about the world, as opposed to a myriad of quests at a hub that introduces me to 10 of each monster in the surrounding area. Is sifting through the text of a quest to kill 10 rats a grind, no not really , is sitting threw a cut scene for a quest to kill 10 rats a grind well only time will tell.
Welcome Home
Rev.
Having an actor tell you to go and kill 10 space rats isn't really that much more interesting than reading it in a quest log.
this.
the op question is like: "guys, plz tell me, do i like Red?"
How the hell i know!!
But it's in Space! How can you possibly make space boring?! ... *looks to EVE Online*
-Azure Prower
http://www.youtube.com/AzurePrower
Faction a tells you to kill 20 x of this choice are
1) kill 20 x of that +1 faction
2) tell it to **** itself -1 faction
3) don't do it 0 faction
4) kill 40x +2 faction a -2 faction b
If that's what it means by choices then that would be kind of alright. Could be like an approval ration per npc or per faction. The higher it is the more conversation opertunity becomes availavle.
If that's kind of what their planning than it's better than saying go here and kill this and go there and kill that etc.
This isn't a signature, you just think it is.
Ok, so the question is: Is this game a grindfest? ... Grindfest usually means your out killing lots of things just to level because you either can't find any quests or you just don't like the quests you did find... so you are simply left to kill, kill, kill over and over again til you are sick of it.
Now as far as SWTOR goes, I have played it quite a bit and I can say that they have mastered the way that the quests are designed so that there is no grindfest.
#1. There are always quests... tons of them. And they are actually so fun and the story pulls you in so much that you are no longer concerned with getting to level cap because you are having a blast just questing! Also, the quests never seem petty... like: go kill 10 womp rats for no reason. Instead the quests seem alive and have real purpose. And because it is fully voiced and you actually have choices to make in each quest it makes the quests feel even more personal.
The quick answer: NO GRINDFEST IN SWTOR!, but if you want you can create one.
Well it's a RPG-fest, so yeah a lot of the more grindy tropes are there.
Sorta in a typical MMO way, also sorta in a single player PC RPG sorta way.
It's not so bad thanks to the story from what I hear. Some things sound really redundant to me, but I'd not exactly classify that as "grinding".
Maybe when the upper tier "tokens for equipment" end game is revealed then yeah- I'll always call that grindfest. Cheap way to add hours to a game by making people repeat content for rewards. I'd be real shocked if that's not in SWTOR.
I used to play MMOs like you, but then I took an arrow to the knee.
Pretty much my thoughts as well, although I'll add one other: Even though it's not a grindy game, don't expect to powerlevel through it either. The game is paced so that the levelling process is very measured. It's a combination of the voiceovers, the size of the world, and the travelling you do in quests, but the levelling does not seem to go by very fast at all. And yet...you don't realize it because the storyline really sucks you in.
Actually you CAN instant warp, this game is not a grindfest but this is not a slow pace game either. In 4 hours of game play im already lvl 11 of 50. I didnt rush it and i taked the time to listen all dialogs. So like most modern mmo i can reach lvl 50 in 1 or 2 weeks.
Gotta say in the beginning I felt the cinematics and voice overs added a whole new dimension to the game but after a while I found myself thinking "I dont care anymore just get on with the game". It was at this point I realized it was time for a break. But this is all in the speculation of one days time (and by that I mean like 8 hours of non-stop playing). It could've been also due to I haven't played a game for over 3 hours a day in a long time so who knows. But regardless, getting after it again tomorrow and hoping to find it being as refreshing as an experience as when I logged on the first time.
Ok, someone said SWTOR is like wow in the grind department. I want to point out that though I respect your opinion... this is definitely not the case.
Wow is a grindfest mainly because of the design of the game obviously. But what I mean is, because it is all quest text that no one wants to sit and read through, the quests have little to no meaning other than It's a way to get to the good stuff.... level cap. That is wow in a nutshell. When I played wow I had questhelper... I didn't read one single quest, I just did what I had to and endured through the levels so that I could get to endcap.
In SWTOR however, there is fully voiced quests that are really fun, exciting, and engaging. I actually plan on taking my time and having fun questing all the way til I have fun at endcap.
So basically, it's not a grindfest like wow, because what makes wow a grindfest to begin with is not a problem in SWTOR. Completely different quest design.
No i wont, like i said i listen to all dialog and do all quest i can find so how can i miss three quarter of the game?? Im not the king of gamer who rush trough end game, i explore and take the time to read and listen tthe quest but still the leveling system is way too fast. This is not the first game who adapt this kind of fast pace genre, there is nothing new there.
I think SWToR is kind of self-balancing on this score.
If you think SWToR is a grind then obviously you're not interested in story and one has to ask why exactly you're playing a story-driven MMO. You'll be faced with that grind until you develop the mental faculties required to make the decision that if you don't like story maybe story-driven games aren't what you should be spending your money on.
If you do like story then likely SWToR won't be a grind. And as a reward for the incredible mental effort required to come to the conclusion that if you like story you should play story-driven games you won't face any grind at all.
To put it extremely simple SWToR is a merging of tab-target MMO gameplay with Bioware-style storytelling. If you don't like either one then one has to ask why exactly you're playing this game. It's like ordering a pizza with extra cheese when you don't like cheese.
This isn't a game where end-game is looking to be completely different from the rest of the game. End-game will still carry a focus on story. How you complement that story is totally up to you. After the starting world there's instanced PvE, instanced PvP, world PvE (heroic quests) and world PvP (on PvP servers) to complement your story.
There's no do activity A which you hate till you're high-level with good gear so you can then finally do activity B which you really wanted to do. Whatever activities you love, as long as story is one of them, you can do from the start right after you finish the starter world (which should be very heavy on story as it's introducing the whole thing).
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\
( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o)
(")("),,(")("),(")(")
GRIND actually stands for Great Rewards Inspire Numbing Design. You want XP? Then kill 10 rats. And the dev's job is done.
We actually want is BRAINS: Bad Rewards And I Never Stop (playing and paying). You want XP? Bad luck, you have to enjoy the game instead. And the dev's job just got harder.
You heard it here first.
Probally not, since the game is just a world of warcraft clone with voice acting and worse more boring combat. I'd honestly reccomend you wait for a trial, especally if your sick of/didn't like world of warcrafts gameplay since swtor is just the newest wow clone coming out. World of Warcraft is not known to be a grinder si I doubt swtor will be either. I tried swtor in a beta, and well I have to say I was not impressed with the game at all, it was a rather generic and fairly dull mmo with nothing that was really exciting or intersting. To me the voice acting was just a pain in the ass, and just made stuff take longer than it needed to. I don't need 5 mins of voice acting just to tell me to go kill 5 whomp rats or whatever they are called on Tantooine (as an example). SWToR honestly should have just been a single player game, with maybe a multiplayer mode like dragon age etc. Its not a good enough game to qualify as a mmo in my book. Of course people will buy it in droves, but I think they will end up dissapointed. I'm playing it smart, and gonna hold off for a trial to see if the game has gotten any better, but honestly, I don't expect much.
Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:
A. Proven right (if something bad happens)
or
B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)
Either way, you can't lose! Try it out sometime!
A week has 7x24 hours, two weeks has 336 hours, subtract some hours for sleeping and eating and in theory, yes, you can reach level cap within 2 weeks. There have been some wackos in other games who slept only for 4 hours a day for a whole week and played the rest of the time, some others who speed leveled a toon with 2 of them on rotation, so that'll make it also possible to have every hour of the day count as gameplay hour.
For most people that don't spend every waking hour playing the game or 80+ hours a week playing, I doubt they'll reach level 50 in that period of time.
I think it's pretty obvious that MMO gamers who have burnt themselves out on themepark MMO gameplay by extensively playing WoW or other themepark MMO's will not suddenly magically be freed of those feelings of (themepark) MMO fatigue or burn out. Also some people who never much liked themepark MMO's in the first place, I don't see them enjoy SWTOR that much either.
As for how how SWTOR will be received in the short term and long term, we'll see. I think it'll be pretty exciting to watch how the upcoming months will roll, it'll answer some remaining questions regarding the current MMO scene. There have been a lot of predictions on these forums, but let's be realistic, people on these exact forums have been predicting the doom and downfall within a year for WoW since 2007. Not really that trustworthy.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Please remember not to discuss anything about the SWTOR beta except that you are participating in it.
Thanks.
In my opinion grind is when the goal is more important than the journey.
It appears in this game they try to make the journey important.
I agree completely. Whether the succeed, and whether an individual player wants this type of gameplay, remains to be seen.