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Not innovative enough
osiriszoran
Member Posts: 86
Got to lvl 22 as a sith sorcerer in the open beta and i felt the combat was identical to wow and even the spells and abilities were copies. I didnt feel as if the world was vast & expansive...it felt enclosed always by mountains....even on tatooine and hoth it was sand/snow squished between mountains.
While the class quests were great & entertaining the side quests were more of the same mmo style quests. The space combat missions were fun the first few times but it felt more like a mini game then anything and felt like they just threw it in to say they had space combat. The game also felt to much like a single player game even though there was some group quests to group for....there was no need to interact with people other than these quests. The city hubs existed solely for trainers & there was no real social interactions going on within them. It reminded me of how the cities felt in SWG when people started quitting and the cantinas became empty.
For spending 150 million it feels like they bypassed innovation for i guess graphics? voice acting? story telling? Story telling only gets you so far because everyone will hit level 50 and wanting to experience more from their MMO.
I felt BW should of grabbed more features from SWG and expanded them (detailed crafting system, making being social in cantinas/main city hubs desireable, limited player cities/fortresses that are conquerable or destroyable, vast sandbox planets).
I want SW:TOR to be a good game but my hopes are definitely a lot lower now after this let down. I ll still give BW the benefit of the doubt that they can produce some quality end game content and stick it out and see how it progresses. I guess im just bummed at the lack of innovation and them taking the easy lazy route of MMO style.
Comments
SWTOR is pretty much KOTOR expanded to multiplayer / co-op. Most of these other features are ones Bioware is unfamiliar with. We'll see how they progress...
I made your first point in game while playing the weekend before last.. the answer I was met with (along with various troll remarks is) "Why is that a bad thing? Wow has millions of subscribers so they must be doing something right. Bioware wants to make money" blah blah.. and they are right.. thats why SWTOR is so generic in playstyle.. because it has mass appeal. Indy MMOs that try new systems sadly seem to die in the current market and companies arn't gonna take chances spending potentially millions of dollars to produce these games only to see them flop.. so they are gonna stick to the 'core market' playstyles until people finally start drifting away from the old style MMOs like EQ2, Wow, Rift, etc.
I was personally disapointed SWTOR wasn't more twitch then it is. That said from a old style standpoint I enjoy the combat.. but its the story that has me wanting to play.. not the gameplay. I just have to hope with games like SW on the horizon we will see something fresh soon.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
Kotor did not have 1000 "kill x, fetch y quests". Every quest in Kotor was like a class quest or had a large story behind it.
generic mmo EXP quest with voice dialog is not KOTOR STYLE.
I honestly dont mind this type of combat system. I just hoped the game was more OPEN & innovative in pvp, crafting, social interactions between players outside of just grouping/pvping.
I wish it had taken THOSE elements from SWG.
Wasn't that the plan all along?
Nothing new mmo-wise, not so cutting-edge graphics, focus on story and voiceovers.
Will see how well this goes over at level 50.
Huh, I do agree with the pvp .. not so much the social interaction.. but I actually found the crafting quite fresh.. the aspect of sending your companions to do all the work while you continue playing was nice to me. I've always hated standing at a terminal and grinding away, only to have to go out and farm pelts, or ore or whatever. In fact in a way in terms of factories from SWG and the hands off auto crafting .. I do find it kinda similar.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
This was a weird idea people in the beta tried to sell me when I talked in general chat.
It's not true.
The conversation system is from Mass Effect. The combat is pure WoW (and I don't know why anyone would contest this, but when I said this without any kind of judgement in the beta general chat I got attacked). The general gear system is totally WoW as well (as opposed to KOTOR), though obviously they don't use WoW's particular stats -- heck, PVP and PVE gear is different just like in WoW too. Most of the end-game and group content is wow-esque, though some of it has their own unique spin.
A ton of the play experience borrows from WoW...the majority of it in fact since combat and the like is what you spend most of your time doing (well, except for talking to friends). The story elements are a great addition to MMOs, but ultimitely they compose a relatively small amount of playtime.
I am sure they'll do well with the WoW+ formula, but let's not pretend they took anything more than some lore from KOTOR.
Edit: Crafting is their own new thing too, I agree on that.
I love all the complaints about innovation. This magical "innovation" everyone speaks of is not even defined by everybody the same.
This person thinks it should be SWG, the next person thinks it should have action based combat, the next person wants a totally revolutionized combat system, someone else wants the game to print money and cure cancer.
Here's the thing to those that claim this game is not innovative, it does innovate in several areas.
The heavy focus on story and voice acting is different than what any mmo has done before. Sure there are story based mmos out there, but not like this. That is what this company does best, story. They do it in every game. The story elements of this game, and all the game mechanics supporting them (multiplayer conversations, fullly VO quest npcs, dialog choices, writing, etc..) are definitely, without a doubt innovative.
As far as turning it into SWG 2, I would hate that and so would millions of others. Most people don't want to play SWG 2. There weren't that many playing it to begin with. This game is all about mass market appeal, and sorry but SWG does not have mass market appeal. Bioware games do. What kind of person would make the bonehead business decision to invest 100 million dollars or whatever TOR cost, into a game like SWG 2, from a dev company who has NEVER made anything remotely close to that type of game. That would not be a wise gamble, while WoW with lightsabers isn't even a gamble at all, it's a sure thing.
Shadow's Hand Guild
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I am actually sick to death of seeing this being constantly brought up.
SWTOR is an MMORPG. It will have elements that are similar to the GENRE. The keyword here is genre. The same way an FPS have similar elements across the board in that genre. The same way a platformer has platforms. the same way a driving sim has cars.
your point about side quests is a bit loaded. No where do you mention that BW has in fact deviated for the norm by also voicing these and giving you power to influence the eventual out come. I have no idea why people keep saying this is a single player game. You have a keyboard in front of you...use it to get people to group with you. I grouped/partied 10+ times during the beta just getting to level 10.
How can people refute innovation of any sort in this game.
-VO that has not been done on any other MMO (to this scale before)
- Storyline that matter to your character
-You decide your morality
-you decide your own responses to conversations
-Crafting that can be done by companions
-companions in general
All the above are innovations, yet people brazemly skip over them iun order to deliver weight to their arguments.
Tell me the essential components of an FPS.
Now tell me the essential components of an MMORPG.
I said expanded to, which means the quests were changed to fit an MMORPG model. You simply can not have the same quests in a single player game as an MMORPG, unless you really want to make the experience more solo and restricting.
Your sandbox elements from SWG (although I agree with them) have long ago been discussed and dismissed as something not to be expected, on this site. This game is solid themepark, not sandbox. I guess you're new here though...
And if you disagree with KOTOR being it, then its the sum of their gaming experience expanded to multiplayer, which simply means no sandbox elements.
I'd point to GW2 as an example of how much innovation is possible in the MMORPG "model" especially regarding questing. It's clear that the development around TOR was largely conservative regarding questing, combat, gear, and the like. They went with the WoW example here.
I actually prefer the crafting system in this game and hope future games will improve upon it. Being able to do whatever you want and progress in crafting at the same time? Excellent idea and probably the only good thing you can take out of those crappy time-based browser MMO's.
Definitely got to agree with you about the game needing to be more open. It's so closed and claustrophobic (even in the larger worlds such as Tatooine and Alderaan) that the only pathways are marked on your map with either a solid yellow line or a dotted one.
Yep, this is where they put a lot of their focus. Unfortunately, they don't flaunt it as much as they should. Flashpoints are a great medium for them to really show off the multiplayer conversations and their various side effects, but from playing through the first few on the Republic side (and the first one on the Imperial side), it's only the very first one (the shuttle to your respective capital world) that I feel did the system justice and created an engaging experience.
Lol SWG had HUGE market appeal dude. it was the First Star wars mmo. Also im not SAYING make a SWG clone. Im saying they should of taken the great features from it that the majority of people loved. You're not taking a gamble. You're making a wow-esque clone (which they did) and adding in some unique features that wow chooses not to do but no doubt would give them a great edge.
The crafting is the same as wow the only difference is you harvest resources differently and can have your companion craft for you.
Also like i said, Innovation can be minor or huge. The voice dialog is a MINOR INNOVATION. it will not make this game at level 50. How fun the content is and the level of things we can do in the game will effect its staying power.
The story stops at level 50 bro. Then its just repeat stories until expansion releases.
Gladly
An fps is expected to have a First person view
- A broad spectrm of weaponary
-a useable gameplay mechanic that is familiar to most gamers (ie the halo/cod way of moving, reloading etc etc,
- a regenerating health system is expected nowadays
- a robust competitive multiplayer
- and thanks to cod, weapon prgression/unlocks are starting to become the norm.
An MMO will always have the following
- a viable understandable progression system
-a ui that is by default extremely easy to understand and familiar to new and old school mmoer
-dungeons
-gear
-roles
-raids at end game
-some kind of social element/hub
I defy you to name ONE mmo that does not follow these criteria. SWTOR is not the only one. This was laid down even before Ultima online.
Stop right there...............you obviosly played your warlock this weekend and dreamed you got invited to the SWTOR beta and played a sorcerer.
lv 24 Sith Sorc beta weekend
lv 12 Chiss BH beta weekend
lv 12 Sith Maruader beta weekend
I knew what type of game SW:TOR was going to be, i just did not expect it to be THIS BAD. WoW is more open world & sandbox.
Force lighting = Mind Flay
Stasis Barrier = Power Word: Shield.
Affliction = Power word: pain.
and on and on and on
Hell, people right now are complaining because they can't power level like in WOW. They complain about too many cutscenes that slow down their pace. Welcome to real RPG.
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
Have you seen/heard the size of the planets that are just on relese? This is not hearsay this is fact. You have not taken the time to explore. It is your choice to veer off the beaten path.
My complaint is i did not expect SW:TOR to this dumbed down, generic, and very restrictive on the set paths on the map. Like i said, very few OPEN areas in SW:TOR. Thats a problem when tatooine doesnt look like a expansive desert.
I have explored and you cant veer far off the beaten path because you run into LolMountains.
Woah woah woah .. clip that crap right there... wow is NOT more open world by any measure, and its every bit as sandbox at lower levels as SWTOR. When you are running through your first couple zones you are lead by the nose everywhere. I'm not saying that to hate on Wow, I dont hate wow at all, but thats a BS unfair comparison. By the time I hit level 20 in SWTOR I had three planets and various areas to quest on each of those... I wasn't guided nor did I feel confined. This seems like another never got off the first world post.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
No i did balmorras quests & nar Shaddaas. I visited Hoth & Tatooine. It doesnt take long to run from one side of the map or th eother and to notice the constant amount of mountain formations zig zagging threw the maps to segment them for particular quest areas
Running across Tatooine did not feel like i would get lost in a desert sorry. Like i said. Sand squished between mountains .
I haven't played GW2 yet myself, but I already know I'll be liking the combat model more with dodge, block, and swimming! haha. I know the GW2 "dynamic" quest system is based upon activating a set of chain events, would have to play it myself to see how well that would flow. To set TOR apart from other MMORPGS I have played, I actually know what I am questing for and know what is being asked of me in everysingle quest I have done. I seldom, if ever, read those paragraph blocks with accept/deny as the only option down below. So they did something right
Thanks for bringing up this point Angel i was about to hit on it. Let me say I have never hated on WoW, I loved my time there. Lets be realistic here as well, the starting points in say Goldshire/the abbey are just as restrictive. Yes you can try veer off the path....but you will be eaten. BS comparison