I play both PvP and PvE and understand why Mirrored classes are used. Balance is a nightmare to achieve within these systems. Its not just PvP that suffers either, people forget too fast how PvE can suffer because X class does not have Y ability (like its counter part on the other side)
Forums light up with each minor change. Math geeks run the numbers to the N'th degree and point out the 0.002% disparagy between X and Y classes abilitys (Usually forgetting half the other abilitys each class has) then scream that they are nerf'd. Mean while the slight buff to mage's health because they were getting one shot by rogues is lambasted by the warriors who now *Can never win a fight vs a mage* and so on and so forth.
It gets old.
Now while I'd love a game with 20 classes and 10 unique classes on each side that were perfectly balanced, I know it will never happen.
Alot of folks have sited WAR as an example here. Ya at the lower levels a Bright Wizard and Warrior Priest were awsome. Then at 40 the Diciples were nasty as hell since they were a melee class with an AOE melee stun. Where was orders melee stun? On the Bright Wizards? Wtf?
A small *flavor* change like that, same ability but on different classes, caused an uproar from player. There were many examples of that in the game and the forums were always full of nerf calls, Ironbreakers have too many KB's, Bright Wizards are betters than sorcs, Witch Hunters sux next to Witch Elves .. on an on and on.
So IMO bioware made the smart move, Mirrors. The fact they added unique animations, gear, storys is a huge deal though and makes the classes *feel* different. I mean in the long run, having 4 DPS caster classes is fun and all, but mostly they are just flavor too, different animations, different colours on spells etc, very few actual *unique* abilitys in many games. Bioware just used the illusion across factions rather than across classes to have diversity.
A sith assassin plays completely differently then a sith sorcerer. Granted your story line will be the same but those two completely different classes ones a mele who can tank or go rogue dps, the otehr is a spell caster that can go healer or dps.
That's why I think it makes a TON of sense to play the different AC on the other faction. That way you can basically try all the AC's without having to repeat a story.
It's perfectly designed for 8 playthroughs. now, I dunno about you, but on no other MMO I've played, even for years, do I have ANYWHERE NEAR 8 max level characters. Almost 3 years into LotRO, I have one max level, a couple 50's, a 30, and a handful with less than that...
Seems the author forgot that you choose an advanced class in Swtor at level 10, so you basically just have to choose another path on your mirror class to get a completely different playstyle.
These are identical to their mirror's counterparts as well. Vanguard (Trooper) == Powertech (Bounty Hunter).
What I don't get is that the author tells us that mirroring is BAD BAD BAD. And look at what MMO has done it for the last 7 years now..? Right WoW has been mirroring classes 100% and no one ever complained about that..?
Other point of interest: the classes the author named as mirrors ARE NOT their mirros. The mirror of Bounty Hunter is Smuggler, and not the Trooper as the author states...
Also, as Grizzkhit said gameplay is different. Mirrored classes have a whole set of DIFFERENT skills. In basic they might seem the same, but the differences in skills makes them completely different in game-play.
I don't mind mirroring when it's done more like how WAR did it at launch and less like how WAR does it now. I used the White Lion and Marauder comparison in the article. They functioned very similarly, but were still different in meaningful ways that established a sense of class identity.
And yes, the Bounty Hunter is the Trooper mirror, not the Smuggler.
As for them being different. I mentioned in the article that yes, the abilities are styled and flavored in a way that is appropriate to their class from a visual standpoint, but from a gameplay perspective they're the exact same thing. If you have a level 50 Trooper Commando, you'll know how to play a Bounty Hunter Mercenary Bodyguard without any need to adjust. You could set your hotbars and talents up exactly the same as your other class with the mirrored abilities.
That is where I took issue. I don't mind mirroring to some extent, but being completely identical is what bugged me. This isn't gamebreaking for me -- but it's something worth talking about as is clearly evident by the discussion that has followed.
I'm really bummed out about this news. I actually didn't look too far into the classes to see that they were mirrors of each other, so this is the first I'm hearing about this. It's going to make rolling the mirrored class to experience the story hard to do. I'm one of those players that loathes repeating content, including the same class dynamics.
I'm really bummed out about this news. I actually didn't look too far into the classes to see that they were mirrors of each other, so this is the first I'm hearing about this. It's going to make rolling the mirrored class to experience the story hard to do. I'm one of those players that loathes repeating content, including the same class dynamics.
Play the opposite advanced class. Even better, pick a different combat role.
A Shadow Tank, for instance, will be nothing like a Sorcerer Healer.
Mirrored classes are the only way to truley balance a game that doesn't allow for the opposing side to have the same class. Take Warhammer 40k for example; You have a Space Marine. And Eldar can't be a space marine. Simple as that. So you either make 1 class from each side play identical to save time from having to try and create another class and balance it or you create a game like Warcraft where only races, not classes, are restrictive to a certain side or faction. The problem there is that in a game like Warhammer or Star Wars, your lore dictates your classes ... and that's where this problem comes into play.
Me? I think mirrored classes are the epitome of laziness by a design crew. It saves time, money, and development because no one wanted to do the work to make things unique. And I understand - it's hard to do. But that doesn't stop them from taking the easy route. Star Wars is near laughable with how bad it is. At least DAoC, WAR, and other games tried. It's not like SWTOR is dishing out any better combat gameplay than those games did.
But personally? Give me races and let me choose my own path/class. Preferabbly I don't want classes in my game ... but if they are there, let me pick my race and play it so that you don't have silly setups like SWTOR is using. "DO I BURST LIGHTNING OR DO I FORCE THROW?!?!" "Who cares, Luke, it's the same damn thing. Just hurry up and do something you damned fool."
I think you're downplaying how much of a problem the non-mirrored classes were in WAR. WAR was my favorite MMO, and one of the biggest reasons was because of the unique classes, BUT they were a HUGE problem from day one!
People constantly complained about: "my class is gimped", "if my class isn't fixed I'm going back to WoW", "X class is SO OP", and blah blah blah. So the devs would try and fix it so suddenly: "why did they nerf my class", "well my class sucks now, I'm going back to WoW" and my favorite "finally they nerfed X now if they could buff my class maybe the game would be balanced".
I say mirror the classes and focus on making this awesome game better in other ways.
Seems the author forgot that you choose an advanced class in Swtor at level 10, so you basically just have to choose another path on your mirror class to get a completely different playstyle.
These are identical to their mirror's counterparts as well. Vanguard (Trooper) == Powertech (Bounty Hunter).
What I don't get is that the author tells us that mirroring is BAD BAD BAD. And look at what MMO has done it for the last 7 years now..? Right WoW has been mirroring classes 100% and no one ever complained about that..?
Other point of interest: the classes the author named as mirrors ARE NOT their mirros. The mirror of Bounty Hunter is Smuggler, and not the Trooper as the author states...
Also, as Grizzkhit said gameplay is different. Mirrored classes have a whole set of DIFFERENT skills. In basic they might seem the same, but the differences in skills makes them completely different in game-play.
I don't mind mirroring when it's done more like how WAR did it at launch and less like how WAR does it now. I used the White Lion and Marauder comparison in the article. They functioned very similarly, but were still different in meaningful ways that established a sense of class identity.
And yes, the Bounty Hunter is the Trooper mirror, not the Smuggler.
As for them being different. I mentioned in the article that yes, the abilities are styled and flavored in a way that is appropriate to their class from a visual standpoint, but from a gameplay perspective they're the exact same thing. If you have a level 50 Trooper Commando, you'll know how to play a Bounty Hunter Mercenary Bodyguard without any need to adjust. You could set your hotbars and talents up exactly the same as your other class with the mirrored abilities.
That is where I took issue. I don't mind mirroring to some extent, but being completely identical is what bugged me. This isn't gamebreaking for me -- but it's something worth talking about as is clearly evident by the discussion that has followed.
Did you play WAR at release? The qq over balancing was epic ... it filled the forums.
As to the above poster - *Balancing is over rated* -
Yes I agree, classes should be there to fullfill *roles*. As long as each class is equally viable in PvE and PvP in its *role* I dont really care. I played DAoC for many years and enjoyed the game.
However even back then there were balancing qq threads abound. These days its even worse as MMO players develop even larger entitlement issues. The bottom line these days is that a non-mirrored game is either strickly PvE or a niche game, Developers have learned that the epic QQ over balance is just not worth the headache.
Hell take Rift as a recent example ... both sides have all the same options and still the Rift forums were (when I last played) FULL of bitching about how X spec or X class was OP and needed *balance*. WoW had constant QQ about shamans/paladins being faction specific. DAoC had massive issues with the Mid healers and Runecasters, Hib Animists and even the stealth classes got in on it ... Shadowzerkers being FOTM until the LA nerf .. then they all cried Infiltrators were top dog. SCout from Alb was always viewed as the *best* scout class .. etc etc. I can go on and on and on listing this crap.
Did it bother me? No. I've always argued that PvE and PvP are TEAM games and as long as balance is maintained across the TEAM its fine, but these days I'll just settle for mirrors so that I dont have to scan past 50 qq threads a day about class / faction balance.
Sorry its just not a battle I concider worth fighting with the Dev's over. Its easier for them, sure we take a hit in play options, but you need to learn to pick your battles and fight for something that you have a chance of winning. In the current climate of gaming with the way players react to *any* perceived balance issues ... its just not worth the effort to fight.
Wait for a niche game (DAoC2 how I long for thee) and move onto a battle you can win.
It's the old Brown v Board of Education arguement. Separate is inherantly unequal. The only way to achieve perfect balance is to have identical sides. Now at this stage, I can see how that can easily be looked at as a huge negative, however, if you look at the forums of nearly every game out there, it's filled with "nerf this" and "buff that". So the developers are left with a huge difficult decision that is impossible to please everyone. SWTOR chose to mirror the classes on each faction, but do it in a way that still felt as different as possible. The alternative would be a neverending battle to try to get close to balance but never being able to reach it, but you have more diversity.
Basically, there is no way to please everybody in this case, so it's hard to fault the devs too much.
I think you're downplaying how much of a problem the non-mirrored classes were in WAR. WAR was my favorite MMO, and one of the biggest reasons was because of the unique classes, BUT they were a HUGE problem from day one!
People constantly complained about: "my class is gimped", "if my class isn't fixed I'm going back to WoW", "X class is SO OP", and blah blah blah. So the devs would try and fix it so suddenly: "why did they nerf my class", "well my class sucks now, I'm going back to WoW" and my favorite "finally they nerfed X now if they could buff my class maybe the game would be balanced".
I say mirror the classes and focus on making this awesome game better in other ways.
I agree. WAR had that issue because they had built a game on lore - and you have to follow lore. Star Wars has the same thing going. So you decide to either make mirrored classes at the expense of hurting player replayability or you try and make unique classes at the expense of spending time balacing - a hard task.
I prefer having unbalanced, different classes - as they will always be worked on. But in WAR's case it was helmed by Mythic ... and they never really that great. DAoC was okay because it was one of the early major MMOs and back then, all of them were so new they were all somewhat fun to play. But DAoC wasn't all that well designed from a dev standpoint and neither was WAR. Mythic is a very overrated company IMO.
You don't even have to go all the way back to WAR to see what effect non-mirrored classes have on the game. Just check out Rift. It's one of the more unbalanced class systems in both PvP and PvE that exist today. Every single update they do includes a major nerf to a specific class and a major buff to another. Then it all gets changed around in the next update. It's ridiculous the amount of balancing issues they have.
I'm not saying having a non-mirrored class system is bad. In fact, I prefer more options for classes than less options. Always will. But I also understand how mirrored classes in a two faction game would make it easier to balance for both PvE and PvP. It's not like TOR only has 4 classes per side---it's technically 8 with the Advanced Class system. For me, that's plenty, particularly when you take into account that the classes, even though mirrored, don't necessarily FEEL like they are mirrored due to differing weapons and animations, as well as a completely different class story.
I agree with you. It completely hurts the prospect of giving each side a distinctive feel and feels like they opted to cut corners either out of laziness or for the sake of balancing. Just another in a long line of examples of how they are trying to dumb everything down to the lowest common denominator.
Let me guess you ve played beta and no exactly how things play out. Let me give all you people that think they re exact mirrors a hint. Follow up abilities and reactives, they don t play the same.
It's the old Brown v Board of Education arguement. Separate is inherantly unequal. The only way to achieve perfect balance is to have identical sides. Now at this stage, I can see how that can easily be looked at as a huge negative, however, if you look at the forums of nearly every game out there, it's filled with "nerf this" and "buff that". So the developers are left with a huge difficult decision that is impossible to please everyone. SWTOR chose to mirror the classes on each faction, but do it in a way that still felt as different as possible. The alternative would be a neverending battle to try to get close to balance but never being able to reach it, but you have more diversity.
Basically, there is no way to please everybody in this case, so it's hard to fault the devs too much.
Exaclty.
Either way the Dev's cant win on this one.
They either mirror and get posts like these about being lazy, or they dont and suffer qq posts about balance for the entire life of the game.
As I said above, its just not worth fighting them on. The way I see it having Mirrored classes means that all the Dev time that WOULD be taken up monthly scanning logs, checking for OPness and recoding and adjusting classes (And lets be honest, pretty much every stinking patch has *balance fixes*) can be focused elsewhere Improving other aspects of the game.
Sure they will still monitor logs to balance X class vs X class .. but its a hell of alot easier to balance 4 classes than 8.
Players have proved time and time again that even a slight change to a class can be creativly used to gain advantage, be it in your favor playing that class or playing against that class. At least in a mirrored system a nerf to your sides tanks is a nerf to thier sides tanks, a buff to thier healers is a buff to your healers. It gives people far less room to complain.
Sure you'll still get the 1V1 QQ, *my Warrior cant kill thier healer NERF!*, *My healer cant kill thier rogue NERF!* but at least both sides suffer the same and its then a teamwork issue and not a class issue.
The *L2P* argument is easier to use when its a mirror system and the other side has the same classes available that your side does.
I'm really bummed out about this news. I actually didn't look too far into the classes to see that they were mirrors of each other, so this is the first I'm hearing about this. It's going to make rolling the mirrored class to experience the story hard to do. I'm one of those players that loathes repeating content, including the same class dynamics.
Play the opposite advanced class. Even better, pick a different combat role.
A Shadow Tank, for instance, will be nothing like a Sorcerer Healer.
Good point, where's my head at today, that'd work perfectly. Thanks!
i agree, cutting down to 8 final classes seems a copout to me by bioware as opposed to 16.
of course, to me classes in general are a copout and i'd have rather the game has a character sheet/skills type of system, but i do find that the games-with-classes that i enjoy are the ones with lots of class choices. EQs 1, 2, ff11, rift with their build-a-class.
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
While this game does have mirrored classes, at least the mirrored classes have completely different icons and animations, and yes that goes a long way.
Anyone who played Warhammer should be completely fine with mirrored classes. They tried to do the "similar" class thing and all it resulted in was one always being more powerful than the other.
They could have just as easily made generic classes and thrown them on each side ala WoW, at least here they made different stories and visuals to distinguish them.
@demarc01: Yes. I played WAR at launch. The fact they failed to balance things properly doesn't mean the design concept is flawed, maybe they just weren't so great at balancing. Obviously, it'll never be as easy as fully mirrored classes, but why shirk the challenge? As a gamer I expect more, and that's all this article was about.. Many of my recent previews were decidedly positive in tone on the game, but nothing is perfect, so I wanted to take a look at some of the aspects I don't feel are as great.
If you prioritize balance parity more than anything else or even disagree with my premise that classes are identical, that's completely fine. I offered my take on what I felt was a negative and opened it up to you guys to share your thoughts at the end.
With that said, I am pretty satisfied with the resulting discussion. There are people with strong arguments on both sides of the issue and that's all you can really ask for.
Thanks for your thoughts on the subject, guys; it's been illuminating! Keep it coming!
It's the old Brown v Board of Education arguement. Separate is inherantly unequal. The only way to achieve perfect balance is to have identical sides. Now at this stage, I can see how that can easily be looked at as a huge negative, however, if you look at the forums of nearly every game out there, it's filled with "nerf this" and "buff that". So the developers are left with a huge difficult decision that is impossible to please everyone. SWTOR chose to mirror the classes on each faction, but do it in a way that still felt as different as possible. The alternative would be a neverending battle to try to get close to balance but never being able to reach it, but you have more diversity.
Basically, there is no way to please everybody in this case, so it's hard to fault the devs too much.
And that's how I see it.
The only way to not just balance the classes, but to actually MAKE THE ARGUMENT that the classes are balanced, is to mirror them out, and do it in the not so subtle way that BW has done it.
It's not just about balancing the classes. It's about making little doubt that a A faction class = B faction class, so that at least THAT argument loses by default. 8 AC's to balance out is going to be more than enough work to do.
Balancing completely different classes is definately possible.
Look at GW1 - the classes are very different from each other, and the mechanics of the game make it even harder to balance what with being able to have only 8 skills usable at once, people discovering wierd new combinations leading to flavour of the month builds, extra powerful elite skills, the really competitve PvP meaning people really scream when things get Nerfed too hard on their chars etc etc
Yet they still managed it. It might be harder to do than having mirrored classes, but it certainly makes for a more interesting, enjoyable and varied game
Cluck Cluck, Gibber Gibber, My Old Mans A Mushroom
I think it open thes argument to a different level and doesn't really solve anything.
There are already arguments about how this tank is better than that tank, this healer is better than that healer, this dps is better than that dps, and the cc on this group of classes is better/worse than those over there plus cookies... Etc.
I would respect a developer who said up front, "Hey, the classes aren't balanced. Get over it." But I understand what they are doing and why. It's their game, we just get to pay them for it or not.
_____________________________ "Ad eundum quo nemo ante iit"
I agree. WAR had that issue because they had built a game on lore - and you have to follow lore. Star Wars has the same thing going. So you decide to either make mirrored classes at the expense of hurting player replayability or you try and make unique classes at the expense of spending time balacing - a hard task.
I prefer having unbalanced, different classes - as they will always be worked on. But in WAR's case it was helmed by Mythic ... and they never really that great. DAoC was okay because it was one of the early major MMOs and back then, all of them were so new they were all somewhat fun to play. But DAoC wasn't all that well designed from a dev standpoint and neither was WAR. Mythic is a very overrated company IMO.
I've said this before and I'll say it again. There are:
8 advanced classes
8 different stories
There are easily as many replayability options in TOR, even with mirrored classes, as there are any other game out there. Mike B.'s concern about Soldier/Guardian playing just like BH/Tech is like me being upset that a Tauren and Human Warrior play the same in WoW.
I'm an altoholic, and I STILL don't have 8 maxed out characters in any MMO I've played. Cripe, I don't even have 4 maxed in any game I've played.
If 8 isn't enough, Mr. Van Patten, then no MMO to date has made you happy.
As much as I dislike that there are no Imperial Troopers, Empire Smugglers, Republic Agents or Bounty Hunters (and unlikely that there ever will be as noted by another poster in another thread - you'd still only have the four base classes - we'd just have four trooper/hunters and four smuggler/agents) . . .
. . . we kind of have to look at some of the specializations (not even including hybrids):
Sith Warrior Marauder Annihilation
Sith Warrior Marauder Carnage
Sith Warrior Marauder Rage
Sith Warrior Juggernaut Immortal
Sith Warrior Juggernaut Vengeance
Sith Warrior Juggernaut Rage
Sith Inquisitor Assassin Darkness
Sith Inquisitor Assassin Deception
Sith Inquisitor Assassin Madness
Sith Inquisitor Sorcerer Corruption
Sith Inquisitor Sorcerer Lightning
Sith Inquisitor Sorcerer Madness
Bounty Hunter Mercenary Bodyguard
Bounty Hunter Mercenary Arsenal
Bounty Hunter Mercenary Pyrotech
Bounty Hunter Powertech Shield Tech
Bounty Hunter Powertech Advanced Prototype
Bounty Hunter Powertech Pyrotech
Imperial Agent Sniper Marksmanship
Imperial Agent Sniper Engineering
Imperial Agent Sniper Lethality
Imperial Agent Operative Medicine
Imperial Agent Operative Concealment
Imperial Agent Operative Lethality
With those being "mirrored" for the Republic side. It takes 31 pts in a tree to get the top "talent" in a particular tree. That leaves you 10 pts to spend in that tree or the other two trees.
So we have 24 31pt classes (48 31pt classes if you count both sides). Then beyond that, you get into all the minors as well as hybrids.
So for the folks talking how about this will be easier to balance compared to some games - consider this:
WoW has 10 classes with 3 trees - so you have 30 "classes". SWTOR only has "six" less.
RIFT has 4 classes with 8 "trees" (9 including the PvP pseudo-tree) - so you have 32 "classes". SWTOR only has "eight" less.
Taking into account how WoW has dumbed down (or streamlined if you prefer) their selections to kill hybrids, etc... WoW currently would actually be easier to balance than SWTOR is going to be.
So I'm not sure how one can say that SWTOR is not going to be subject to the same rotating FotM isuses that one experiences in other games.
Where it will be tougher on players, is in taking that Advanced Class. In games like WoW or RIFT, if there is a better Rogue build that comes out for either - both can just respec. In SWTOR, if there is a new Imperial Agent FotM...that happens to be Operative while you're Sniper... oopsie.
So I agree with what was previously said here - we can't really say there are four classes - there are eight.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
I've said this before and I'll say it again. There are:
8 advanced classes
8 different stories
There are easily as many replayability options in TOR, even with mirrored classes, as there are any other game out there. Mike B.'s concern about Soldier/Guardian playing just like BH/Tech is like me being upset that a Tauren and Human Warrior play the same in WoW.
I'm an altoholic, and I STILL don't have 8 maxed out characters in any MMO I've played. Cripe, I don't even have 4 maxed in any game I've played.
If 8 isn't enough, Mr. Van Patten, then no MMO to date has made you happy.
No, that is not the same. There is a difference between both classes being represented amongst multiple factions (thus potentially playable by multiple races) and two different "classes" having the same mechanics. You would expect the Tauren and Human Warriors to offer similar play - they're both Warriors. One would not expect a Trooper and a Bounty Hunter to play the same.
I picture a Trooper. I picture a Bounty Hunter. They use the same mechanics? WTF? I try to picture it...it just rubs me the wrong way. Republic Trooper and Imperial Trooper? Sure. Imperial Bounty Hunter and Republic Bounty Hunter? Sure. Republic Trooper and Imperial Bounty Hunter? WTF, man? (Yes, I'm using the term Imperial Bounty Hunter even though it is just Bounty Hunter).
WoW has 10 classes - I only played a week into Cata, so I only took one toon to 85 - my Lock. I had an 80 Pally, Shammy, Warrior, and DK. I had a 75 Priest, 72 Hunter, 62 Druid, and a 47 Mage. I had several other alts of those classes, though the highest does not really count since it was just another level 70 DK.
RIFT has 4 classes - I had a 50 Mage, Warrior, Cleric, and Rogue. I also had a bunch of toons in the 20-30 range that I deleted to focus on those four 50's when R7-8 came out.
I'm not sure I would consider you an altoholic... Hell, by the way most people use the term - I'm not an altoholic.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Comments
Mirrored classes are fine IMO.
I play both PvP and PvE and understand why Mirrored classes are used. Balance is a nightmare to achieve within these systems. Its not just PvP that suffers either, people forget too fast how PvE can suffer because X class does not have Y ability (like its counter part on the other side)
Forums light up with each minor change. Math geeks run the numbers to the N'th degree and point out the 0.002% disparagy between X and Y classes abilitys (Usually forgetting half the other abilitys each class has) then scream that they are nerf'd. Mean while the slight buff to mage's health because they were getting one shot by rogues is lambasted by the warriors who now *Can never win a fight vs a mage* and so on and so forth.
It gets old.
Now while I'd love a game with 20 classes and 10 unique classes on each side that were perfectly balanced, I know it will never happen.
Alot of folks have sited WAR as an example here. Ya at the lower levels a Bright Wizard and Warrior Priest were awsome. Then at 40 the Diciples were nasty as hell since they were a melee class with an AOE melee stun. Where was orders melee stun? On the Bright Wizards? Wtf?
A small *flavor* change like that, same ability but on different classes, caused an uproar from player. There were many examples of that in the game and the forums were always full of nerf calls, Ironbreakers have too many KB's, Bright Wizards are betters than sorcs, Witch Hunters sux next to Witch Elves .. on an on and on.
So IMO bioware made the smart move, Mirrors. The fact they added unique animations, gear, storys is a huge deal though and makes the classes *feel* different. I mean in the long run, having 4 DPS caster classes is fun and all, but mostly they are just flavor too, different animations, different colours on spells etc, very few actual *unique* abilitys in many games. Bioware just used the illusion across factions rather than across classes to have diversity.
That's why I think it makes a TON of sense to play the different AC on the other faction. That way you can basically try all the AC's without having to repeat a story.
It's perfectly designed for 8 playthroughs. now, I dunno about you, but on no other MMO I've played, even for years, do I have ANYWHERE NEAR 8 max level characters. Almost 3 years into LotRO, I have one max level, a couple 50's, a 30, and a handful with less than that...
I don't mind mirroring when it's done more like how WAR did it at launch and less like how WAR does it now.
I used the White Lion and Marauder comparison in the article. They functioned very similarly, but were still different in meaningful ways that established a sense of class identity.
And yes, the Bounty Hunter is the Trooper mirror, not the Smuggler.
http://db.darthhater.com/skill_calc/bounty_hunter/mercenary/
http://db.darthhater.com/skill_calc/trooper/commando/
Compare the Mercenary Bodyguard tree (Healing) to the Combat Medic (Healing) tree.
http://db.darthhater.com/abilities/class_abilities/trooper/
http://db.darthhater.com/abilities/class_abilities/bounty_hunter/
As for them being different. I mentioned in the article that yes, the abilities are styled and flavored in a way that is appropriate to their class from a visual standpoint, but from a gameplay perspective they're the exact same thing. If you have a level 50 Trooper Commando, you'll know how to play a Bounty Hunter Mercenary Bodyguard without any need to adjust. You could set your hotbars and talents up exactly the same as your other class with the mirrored abilities.
That is where I took issue. I don't mind mirroring to some extent, but being completely identical is what bugged me. This isn't gamebreaking for me -- but it's something worth talking about as is clearly evident by the discussion that has followed.
I'm really bummed out about this news. I actually didn't look too far into the classes to see that they were mirrors of each other, so this is the first I'm hearing about this. It's going to make rolling the mirrored class to experience the story hard to do. I'm one of those players that loathes repeating content, including the same class dynamics.
Play the opposite advanced class. Even better, pick a different combat role.
A Shadow Tank, for instance, will be nothing like a Sorcerer Healer.
BALANCING IS OVERRATED
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Mirrored classes are the only way to truley balance a game that doesn't allow for the opposing side to have the same class. Take Warhammer 40k for example; You have a Space Marine. And Eldar can't be a space marine. Simple as that. So you either make 1 class from each side play identical to save time from having to try and create another class and balance it or you create a game like Warcraft where only races, not classes, are restrictive to a certain side or faction. The problem there is that in a game like Warhammer or Star Wars, your lore dictates your classes ... and that's where this problem comes into play.
Me? I think mirrored classes are the epitome of laziness by a design crew. It saves time, money, and development because no one wanted to do the work to make things unique. And I understand - it's hard to do. But that doesn't stop them from taking the easy route. Star Wars is near laughable with how bad it is. At least DAoC, WAR, and other games tried. It's not like SWTOR is dishing out any better combat gameplay than those games did.
But personally? Give me races and let me choose my own path/class. Preferabbly I don't want classes in my game ... but if they are there, let me pick my race and play it so that you don't have silly setups like SWTOR is using. "DO I BURST LIGHTNING OR DO I FORCE THROW?!?!" "Who cares, Luke, it's the same damn thing. Just hurry up and do something you damned fool."
Ok I just can't let this pass...
I think you're downplaying how much of a problem the non-mirrored classes were in WAR. WAR was my favorite MMO, and one of the biggest reasons was because of the unique classes, BUT they were a HUGE problem from day one!
People constantly complained about: "my class is gimped", "if my class isn't fixed I'm going back to WoW", "X class is SO OP", and blah blah blah. So the devs would try and fix it so suddenly: "why did they nerf my class", "well my class sucks now, I'm going back to WoW" and my favorite "finally they nerfed X now if they could buff my class maybe the game would be balanced".
I say mirror the classes and focus on making this awesome game better in other ways.
Did you play WAR at release? The qq over balancing was epic ... it filled the forums.
As to the above poster - *Balancing is over rated* -
Yes I agree, classes should be there to fullfill *roles*. As long as each class is equally viable in PvE and PvP in its *role* I dont really care. I played DAoC for many years and enjoyed the game.
However even back then there were balancing qq threads abound. These days its even worse as MMO players develop even larger entitlement issues. The bottom line these days is that a non-mirrored game is either strickly PvE or a niche game, Developers have learned that the epic QQ over balance is just not worth the headache.
Hell take Rift as a recent example ... both sides have all the same options and still the Rift forums were (when I last played) FULL of bitching about how X spec or X class was OP and needed *balance*. WoW had constant QQ about shamans/paladins being faction specific. DAoC had massive issues with the Mid healers and Runecasters, Hib Animists and even the stealth classes got in on it ... Shadowzerkers being FOTM until the LA nerf .. then they all cried Infiltrators were top dog. SCout from Alb was always viewed as the *best* scout class .. etc etc. I can go on and on and on listing this crap.
Did it bother me? No. I've always argued that PvE and PvP are TEAM games and as long as balance is maintained across the TEAM its fine, but these days I'll just settle for mirrors so that I dont have to scan past 50 qq threads a day about class / faction balance.
Sorry its just not a battle I concider worth fighting with the Dev's over. Its easier for them, sure we take a hit in play options, but you need to learn to pick your battles and fight for something that you have a chance of winning. In the current climate of gaming with the way players react to *any* perceived balance issues ... its just not worth the effort to fight.
Wait for a niche game (DAoC2 how I long for thee) and move onto a battle you can win.
It's the old Brown v Board of Education arguement. Separate is inherantly unequal. The only way to achieve perfect balance is to have identical sides. Now at this stage, I can see how that can easily be looked at as a huge negative, however, if you look at the forums of nearly every game out there, it's filled with "nerf this" and "buff that". So the developers are left with a huge difficult decision that is impossible to please everyone. SWTOR chose to mirror the classes on each faction, but do it in a way that still felt as different as possible. The alternative would be a neverending battle to try to get close to balance but never being able to reach it, but you have more diversity.
Basically, there is no way to please everybody in this case, so it's hard to fault the devs too much.
I agree. WAR had that issue because they had built a game on lore - and you have to follow lore. Star Wars has the same thing going. So you decide to either make mirrored classes at the expense of hurting player replayability or you try and make unique classes at the expense of spending time balacing - a hard task.
I prefer having unbalanced, different classes - as they will always be worked on. But in WAR's case it was helmed by Mythic ... and they never really that great. DAoC was okay because it was one of the early major MMOs and back then, all of them were so new they were all somewhat fun to play. But DAoC wasn't all that well designed from a dev standpoint and neither was WAR. Mythic is a very overrated company IMO.
You don't even have to go all the way back to WAR to see what effect non-mirrored classes have on the game. Just check out Rift. It's one of the more unbalanced class systems in both PvP and PvE that exist today. Every single update they do includes a major nerf to a specific class and a major buff to another. Then it all gets changed around in the next update. It's ridiculous the amount of balancing issues they have.
I'm not saying having a non-mirrored class system is bad. In fact, I prefer more options for classes than less options. Always will. But I also understand how mirrored classes in a two faction game would make it easier to balance for both PvE and PvP. It's not like TOR only has 4 classes per side---it's technically 8 with the Advanced Class system. For me, that's plenty, particularly when you take into account that the classes, even though mirrored, don't necessarily FEEL like they are mirrored due to differing weapons and animations, as well as a completely different class story.
Let me guess you ve played beta and no exactly how things play out. Let me give all you people that think they re exact mirrors a hint. Follow up abilities and reactives, they don t play the same.
[Mod Edit]
Exaclty.
Either way the Dev's cant win on this one.
They either mirror and get posts like these about being lazy, or they dont and suffer qq posts about balance for the entire life of the game.
As I said above, its just not worth fighting them on. The way I see it having Mirrored classes means that all the Dev time that WOULD be taken up monthly scanning logs, checking for OPness and recoding and adjusting classes (And lets be honest, pretty much every stinking patch has *balance fixes*) can be focused elsewhere Improving other aspects of the game.
Sure they will still monitor logs to balance X class vs X class .. but its a hell of alot easier to balance 4 classes than 8.
Players have proved time and time again that even a slight change to a class can be creativly used to gain advantage, be it in your favor playing that class or playing against that class. At least in a mirrored system a nerf to your sides tanks is a nerf to thier sides tanks, a buff to thier healers is a buff to your healers. It gives people far less room to complain.
Sure you'll still get the 1V1 QQ, *my Warrior cant kill thier healer NERF!*, *My healer cant kill thier rogue NERF!* but at least both sides suffer the same and its then a teamwork issue and not a class issue.
The *L2P* argument is easier to use when its a mirror system and the other side has the same classes available that your side does.
Good point, where's my head at today, that'd work perfectly. Thanks!
i agree, cutting down to 8 final classes seems a copout to me by bioware as opposed to 16.
of course, to me classes in general are a copout and i'd have rather the game has a character sheet/skills type of system, but i do find that the games-with-classes that i enjoy are the ones with lots of class choices. EQs 1, 2, ff11, rift with their build-a-class.
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While this game does have mirrored classes, at least the mirrored classes have completely different icons and animations, and yes that goes a long way.
Anyone who played Warhammer should be completely fine with mirrored classes. They tried to do the "similar" class thing and all it resulted in was one always being more powerful than the other.
They could have just as easily made generic classes and thrown them on each side ala WoW, at least here they made different stories and visuals to distinguish them.
My Guild Wars 2 Vids
Mate there is in reality 8 class in SWTOR.
There is nothing similiar between IA Sniper and IA Operative, or Consular Sage and Consular Shadow.
Advanced Class is just a name.
Your opinion is based on unbeta-ed knowledge it seems.
@demarc01: Yes. I played WAR at launch. The fact they failed to balance things properly doesn't mean the design concept is flawed, maybe they just weren't so great at balancing.
Obviously, it'll never be as easy as fully mirrored classes, but why shirk the challenge? As a gamer I expect more, and that's all this article was about.. Many of my recent previews were decidedly positive in tone on the game, but nothing is perfect, so I wanted to take a look at some of the aspects I don't feel are as great.
If you prioritize balance parity more than anything else or even disagree with my premise that classes are identical, that's completely fine. I offered my take on what I felt was a negative and opened it up to you guys to share your thoughts at the end.
With that said, I am pretty satisfied with the resulting discussion. There are people with strong arguments on both sides of the issue and that's all you can really ask for.
Thanks for your thoughts on the subject, guys; it's been illuminating! Keep it coming!
And that's how I see it.
The only way to not just balance the classes, but to actually MAKE THE ARGUMENT that the classes are balanced, is to mirror them out, and do it in the not so subtle way that BW has done it.
It's not just about balancing the classes. It's about making little doubt that a A faction class = B faction class, so that at least THAT argument loses by default. 8 AC's to balance out is going to be more than enough work to do.
Balancing completely different classes is definately possible.
Look at GW1 - the classes are very different from each other, and the mechanics of the game make it even harder to balance what with being able to have only 8 skills usable at once, people discovering wierd new combinations leading to flavour of the month builds, extra powerful elite skills, the really competitve PvP meaning people really scream when things get Nerfed too hard on their chars etc etc
Yet they still managed it. It might be harder to do than having mirrored classes, but it certainly makes for a more interesting, enjoyable and varied game
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There are already arguments about how this tank is better than that tank, this healer is better than that healer, this dps is better than that dps, and the cc on this group of classes is better/worse than those over there plus cookies... Etc.
I would respect a developer who said up front, "Hey, the classes aren't balanced. Get over it." But I understand what they are doing and why. It's their game, we just get to pay them for it or not.
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I've said this before and I'll say it again. There are:
8 advanced classes
8 different stories
There are easily as many replayability options in TOR, even with mirrored classes, as there are any other game out there. Mike B.'s concern about Soldier/Guardian playing just like BH/Tech is like me being upset that a Tauren and Human Warrior play the same in WoW.
I'm an altoholic, and I STILL don't have 8 maxed out characters in any MMO I've played. Cripe, I don't even have 4 maxed in any game I've played.
If 8 isn't enough, Mr. Van Patten, then no MMO to date has made you happy.
As much as I dislike that there are no Imperial Troopers, Empire Smugglers, Republic Agents or Bounty Hunters (and unlikely that there ever will be as noted by another poster in another thread - you'd still only have the four base classes - we'd just have four trooper/hunters and four smuggler/agents) . . .
. . . we kind of have to look at some of the specializations (not even including hybrids):
Sith Warrior Marauder Annihilation
Sith Warrior Marauder Carnage
Sith Warrior Marauder Rage
Sith Warrior Juggernaut Immortal
Sith Warrior Juggernaut Vengeance
Sith Warrior Juggernaut Rage
Sith Inquisitor Assassin Darkness
Sith Inquisitor Assassin Deception
Sith Inquisitor Assassin Madness
Sith Inquisitor Sorcerer Corruption
Sith Inquisitor Sorcerer Lightning
Sith Inquisitor Sorcerer Madness
Bounty Hunter Mercenary Bodyguard
Bounty Hunter Mercenary Arsenal
Bounty Hunter Mercenary Pyrotech
Bounty Hunter Powertech Shield Tech
Bounty Hunter Powertech Advanced Prototype
Bounty Hunter Powertech Pyrotech
Imperial Agent Sniper Marksmanship
Imperial Agent Sniper Engineering
Imperial Agent Sniper Lethality
Imperial Agent Operative Medicine
Imperial Agent Operative Concealment
Imperial Agent Operative Lethality
With those being "mirrored" for the Republic side. It takes 31 pts in a tree to get the top "talent" in a particular tree. That leaves you 10 pts to spend in that tree or the other two trees.
So we have 24 31pt classes (48 31pt classes if you count both sides). Then beyond that, you get into all the minors as well as hybrids.
So for the folks talking how about this will be easier to balance compared to some games - consider this:
WoW has 10 classes with 3 trees - so you have 30 "classes". SWTOR only has "six" less.
RIFT has 4 classes with 8 "trees" (9 including the PvP pseudo-tree) - so you have 32 "classes". SWTOR only has "eight" less.
Taking into account how WoW has dumbed down (or streamlined if you prefer) their selections to kill hybrids, etc... WoW currently would actually be easier to balance than SWTOR is going to be.
So I'm not sure how one can say that SWTOR is not going to be subject to the same rotating FotM isuses that one experiences in other games.
Where it will be tougher on players, is in taking that Advanced Class. In games like WoW or RIFT, if there is a better Rogue build that comes out for either - both can just respec. In SWTOR, if there is a new Imperial Agent FotM...that happens to be Operative while you're Sniper... oopsie.
So I agree with what was previously said here - we can't really say there are four classes - there are eight.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
No, that is not the same. There is a difference between both classes being represented amongst multiple factions (thus potentially playable by multiple races) and two different "classes" having the same mechanics. You would expect the Tauren and Human Warriors to offer similar play - they're both Warriors. One would not expect a Trooper and a Bounty Hunter to play the same.
I picture a Trooper. I picture a Bounty Hunter. They use the same mechanics? WTF? I try to picture it...it just rubs me the wrong way. Republic Trooper and Imperial Trooper? Sure. Imperial Bounty Hunter and Republic Bounty Hunter? Sure. Republic Trooper and Imperial Bounty Hunter? WTF, man? (Yes, I'm using the term Imperial Bounty Hunter even though it is just Bounty Hunter).
WoW has 10 classes - I only played a week into Cata, so I only took one toon to 85 - my Lock. I had an 80 Pally, Shammy, Warrior, and DK. I had a 75 Priest, 72 Hunter, 62 Druid, and a 47 Mage. I had several other alts of those classes, though the highest does not really count since it was just another level 70 DK.
RIFT has 4 classes - I had a 50 Mage, Warrior, Cleric, and Rogue. I also had a bunch of toons in the 20-30 range that I deleted to focus on those four 50's when R7-8 came out.
I'm not sure I would consider you an altoholic... Hell, by the way most people use the term - I'm not an altoholic.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%