You aren't providing unbiased evidence of anything. You have no idea what resources were required to make them. You also seem to be focusing on games that had space combat as a primary focus. If SWTOR were to move to a primarily Space focused game, then they would likely have the resources, but I don't see that happening.
Actually I am.
It is not my 'opinion' that STO was developed in under 2 years, nor that they had limited resources, nor is it my opinion that they developed a Space Combat system.
This is tangle information that existing in reality, It is not 'guessing' nor is it affected by like/dislike of Cryptic, BW or games in general.
IGN: I was also curious about space combat and how that might evolve. How are the later game missions different from the early game ones and will they ever become sort of a multiplayer experience?
James Ohlen: We're going to continue to add missions. That's another thing that actually surprised us. While we knew that because we weren't doing a freeform X-wing versus Tie Fighter-style space game that we were going to get backlash, that didn't surprise us and obviously we got that feedback a long time ago. We've been working really hard to continue to improve the space game that we have and it's definitely become more popular with our fans with each [beta] iteration. The very last test we had it scored higher than it's ever scored before. I don't think it's going to win over people who want X-wing versus Tie Fighter but I do think people are going to find that it's very evocative of Star Wars and it's a fun activity when you want to take a break from questing. You can go to your own starship and involve yourself in some very awesome Rogue Squadron-y space combat. I can say that we do have a special project going on right now in regards to the space game that will expand the space game in a significant way, but that's not something that's coming right away.
So, they knew they were going to get backlash, and yet they did it anyway.
Why is that even bad thing? Whole open space PvP is stupid thing. It's a concept full of problems in itself not to mention those problems that happen when you try to stick it to game which major point is typical MMORPG group playing.
Stuff we likely to see as someone said before in this thread:
1) Group missions, instead of flying alone you have 3 other people shooting same targets. Easy to implement.
2) Planet missions, I'm not sure but I haven't seen flying in planet surface. Again easy to implement.
3) More stuff. We have now basic cannon and missiles? Add more stuff.
Imo, I do not see why they cannot simply follow the way things generally work in the ground game, but replace the ground content with Space content:
Replace your 'Toon' (and group members' Toons), with yours (and their) Ships
Instead of 'running' around the zone, you fly around the zone
Instead of fighting 'guards', you fight Defensive Fighters/ships/turrets/bases
Instead of attacking a Big Boss Robot, you are attacking a Big Boss Star Destroyer
I am not looking for an X-wing flight sim at this point, but rather something that feels more like a Star Wars MMO (imo) --- and less like a cheesy arcade game that really feels out of place for an MMO.
I think that if they move more towards the direction Rogue Squadron - , it would be an improvement -- simply because there is a little more control given to the player (replace rails with horizontal free move), and would allow for Multiplayer and PvP.
Reality check: There is no, "they should simply ___..." because it is not a simple matter.
IGN: I was also curious about space combat and how that might evolve. How are the later game missions different from the early game ones and will they ever become sort of a multiplayer experience?
James Ohlen: We're going to continue to add missions. That's another thing that actually surprised us. While we knew that because we weren't doing a freeform X-wing versus Tie Fighter-style space game that we were going to get backlash, that didn't surprise us and obviously we got that feedback a long time ago. We've been working really hard to continue to improve the space game that we have and it's definitely become more popular with our fans with each [beta] iteration. The very last test we had it scored higher than it's ever scored before. I don't think it's going to win over people who want X-wing versus Tie Fighter but I do think people are going to find that it's very evocative of Star Wars and it's a fun activity when you want to take a break from questing. You can go to your own starship and involve yourself in some very awesome Rogue Squadron-y space combat. I can say that we do have a special project going on right now in regards to the space game that will expand the space game in a significant way, but that's not something that's coming right away.
So, they knew they were going to get backlash, and yet they did it anyway.
/facepalm
Who are these people?
Smart people who designed something everyone can enjoy and not just hardcore space sim jockeys who have a joystick sitting around
You can play 3D space sims with the mouse. You could in JTL, X-wing alliance, Freespace.
That being said do you really think it's a good thing to make something most players don't like even if it's simple?
You know TOR space shooter is to a SW game what would be the following to a Mad Max MMO:
You are being said you're going to have cars and vehicles guns to end with wheel chair races on guided sidewalks, wihout gears nor even brakes and water pistols as weapons.
IGN: I was also curious about space combat and how that might evolve. How are the later game missions different from the early game ones and will they ever become sort of a multiplayer experience?
James Ohlen: We're going to continue to add missions. That's another thing that actually surprised us. While we knew that because we weren't doing a freeform X-wing versus Tie Fighter-style space game that we were going to get backlash, that didn't surprise us and obviously we got that feedback a long time ago. We've been working really hard to continue to improve the space game that we have and it's definitely become more popular with our fans with each [beta] iteration. The very last test we had it scored higher than it's ever scored before. I don't think it's going to win over people who want X-wing versus Tie Fighter but I do think people are going to find that it's very evocative of Star Wars and it's a fun activity when you want to take a break from questing. You can go to your own starship and involve yourself in some very awesome Rogue Squadron-y space combat. I can say that we do have a special project going on right now in regards to the space game that will expand the space game in a significant way, but that's not something that's coming right away.
So, they knew they were going to get backlash, and yet they did it anyway.
/facepalm
Who are these people?
I would say they are the folks giving us an action/adventure MMO, rather than another Uncle Owen wet dream.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
So the problem isn't that some SW games are focused on space combat while the majority are ground based but that the only other SW MMO had free movement in space?
I'm thinking this too. STO launch was horrid. The space travel was broken. The Klingons wasn't even in the game I dont' think, or if they were they only had a scant of content. The ground missions sucked and were buggy as hell.
I am certainly not saying STO was a great game by any means. I was even more critical of STO that I am of TOR -- and I was in testing from F&F.
The point is that as poor as an Space Misison Instance was in STO, it had more freedom of movement, had more active NPCs and objects, and even more 'abilities' than an instance of the TOR rail shooter.
Compmaring the 2 side by side:
Movement:
STO: 'Submarine Movement' with in Zone. Can move in most directions freely, and free to go in multiple directions if desired.
TOR: sliding through a pre-laid tube trail through Zone. Can slide up/down/right/left, but unable to change direction and must follow 'rail' path.
Enemy Ships:
STO: NPC Ships with AI and ability to attack from most directions
TOR: Ships that simply fly in and out along the tube
Ship Customization:
STO: Players can use multiple ships, change the look, and colors
TOR: 1 ship per class
Objects:
STO: Able to circumnavigate objects like asteroids, ships, bases, etc (ie 3D objects)
TOR: Most elements are painted on scolling back matt (ie 2D objects)
Mouse Look:
STO: 360' Mouse Look w/ zoom capabilities
TOR: Camera locked behind Ship in chase cam mod (might have zoom feature?)
Again, not saying STO is a good game, but it is pretty clear which system offers more features and abilities.
Claiming that just because STO sucked as a game, says nothing about amount of elements that their system contained compared to what TOR has.
But wait, i thought the avatar land combat was horrid over in the land of STO? I'd go digging through the STO forums of MMORPG.com for evidence but I am pretty sure some of you already agree?
Folks don't understand that having the best of both worlds is very difficult because you simply cannot please everyone and trying to do everything makes you great at nothing but average at everything...
Pirates of the Burning Sea had great sea battles.. Great... But who actually enjoyed the avatar combat out of the box?
TOR's space missions are more robust than STO's ground missions at launch. That is a fact. Not sure why people keep bringing up STO as an example of ground and space combat. Both were shoddy at best. The space wasn't even 3d and had more invisible walls than tortage.
It basically just comes down to an agenda rather than a discussion. I've said my piece on the matter. I'm gonna have to bow out of this thread. Good luck.
I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all possible means - except by getting off his back.
I am certainly not saying STO was a great game by any means. I was even more critical of STO that I am of TOR -- and I was in testing from F&F.
The point is that as poor as an Space Misison Instance was in STO, it had more freedom of movement, had more active NPCs and objects, and even more 'abilities' than an instance of the TOR rail shooter.
Compmaring the 2 side by side:
Movement:
STO: 'Submarine Movement' with in Zone. Can move in most directions freely, and free to go in multiple directions if desired.
TOR: sliding through a pre-laid tube trail through Zone. Can slide up/down/right/left, but unable to change direction and must follow 'rail' path.
Enemy Ships:
STO: NPC Ships with AI and ability to attack from most directions
TOR: Ships that simply fly in and out along the tube
Ship Customization:
STO: Players can use multiple ships, change the look, and colors
TOR: 1 ship per class
Objects:
STO: Able to circumnavigate objects like asteroids, ships, bases, etc (ie 3D objects)
TOR: Most elements are painted on scolling back matt (ie 2D objects)
Mouse Look:
STO: 360' Mouse Look w/ zoom capabilities
TOR: Camera locked behind Ship in chase cam mod (might have zoom feature?)
Again, not saying STO is a good game, but it is pretty clear which system offers more features and abilities.
Claiming that just because STO sucked as a game, says nothing about amount of elements that their system contained compared to what TOR has.
Space combat was the main thing in STO, and it still sucked. Space combat in TOR is a distraction / minigame, there's no requirement to do any of the space missions. Minigame space shooter has no gameplay focus at all in TOR, you cant seriously compare these two on any level.
Just saying, it's annoying as hell on forums like this witnessing poor attempts at bashing games for irrelevant stuff. Rage is piece of shit game because the racing part is not on par with Forza, heck even the racing in Rage has a lot bigger gameplay focus and more or less required, than minigame space shooter in TOR which has no gameplay focus at all currently.
Space combat was the main thing in STO, and it still sucked. Space combat in TOR is a distraction / minigame, there's no requirement to do any of the space missions. Minigame space shooter has no gameplay focus at all in TOR, you cant seriously compare these two on any level.
Again, regardless of how the game turned out over all, the simple fact is that STO has more options in their space instances than TOR does in their space instances.
Name callling someone doesn't change that simple fact.
It also doesn't change the point that STO was able to create more, with a very small budget and very short development cycle (less than 2 years is very short for MMO development, especiallly compared to TOR's development cycle).
Something that would change this fact, would be a solid concrete (and unbiased) reason that would have prevented BW from doing more -- such as they lost 3 years of work do to a virus, that they lost a copyright suite that forbade them from using the system they spent 4 years developing, etc.
I can respect if someone likes TOR space game, but just because they like it, doesn't mean that BW could not have done a better job or made it more appealing to OTHER people that do not share your opinion. And just because you like TOR and hate STO, doesn't change what has been demonstrated by Cryptic to be accomplished in under 2 years and on a low budget.
Space combat was the main thing in STO, and it still sucked. Space combat in TOR is a distraction / minigame, there's no requirement to do any of the space missions. Minigame space shooter has no gameplay focus at all in TOR, you cant seriously compare these two on any level.
Again, regardless of how the game turned out over all, the simple fact is that STO has more options in their space instances than TOR does in their space instances.
Name callling someone doesn't change that simple fact.
It also doesn't change the point that STO was able to create more, with a very small budget and very short development cycle (less than 2 years is very short for MMO development, especiallly compared to TOR's development cycle).
Something that would change this fact, would be a solid concrete (and unbiased) reason that would have prevented BW from doing more -- such as they lost 3 years of work do to a virus, that they lost a copyright suite that forbade them from using the system they spent 4 years developing, etc.
I can respect if someone likes TOR space game, but just because they like it, doesn't mean that BW could not have done a better job or made it more appealing to OTHER people that do not share your opinion. And just because you like TOR and hate STO, doesn't change what has been demonstrated by Cryptic to be accomplished in under 2 years and on a low budget.
I consider myself to be a hard core Trekker (much more so than a SW fan) and there was nothing more disappointing that STO - in all respects. I pre-ordered and canceled because I could see from Beta how bad it was going to be. SWTOR on the orher hand - I pre-ordered AFTER I played Beta - it was simply the most fun and best MMO's I've played in years.
And - of course STO had more space options than SWTOR - it's ALL they had in that game lol
Currently playing SWTOR and it's MUCH better than it was at launch.
Space combat was the main thing in STO, and it still sucked. Space combat in TOR is a distraction / minigame, there's no requirement to do any of the space missions. Minigame space shooter has no gameplay focus at all in TOR, you cant seriously compare these two on any level.
Again, regardless of how the game turned out over all, the simple fact is that STO has more options in their space instances than TOR does in their space instances.
Name callling someone doesn't change that simple fact.
It also doesn't change the point that STO was able to create more, with a very small budget and very short development cycle (less than 2 years is very short for MMO development, especiallly compared to TOR's development cycle).
Something that would change this fact, would be a solid concrete (and unbiased) reason that would have prevented BW from doing more -- such as they lost 3 years of work do to a virus, that they lost a copyright suite that forbade them from using the system they spent 4 years developing, etc.
I can respect if someone likes TOR space game, but just because they like it, doesn't mean that BW could not have done a better job or made it more appealing to OTHER people that do not share your opinion. And just because you like TOR and hate STO, doesn't change what has been demonstrated by Cryptic to be accomplished in under 2 years and on a low budget.
They never intended to have space but based on player feedback added it maybe a yr ago. So space in tor has only been in the works for a yr.
The truth is star wars isnt about space battles. Sure they had soem in the movies. Especially the origonal 3 but they still made up less then 10 pct of the movies. The majority of the movies was about he struggle between good and evil
The evil sith lords son and his daughter and how the rebellion against the empire he supported affected them.
Luke/'s journey to becomign a jedi master, hans journey to redeem himself and become more then a smuggler , To become one of the greatest generals in all star wars history,
how leia fell in love with a loveable scoundrel and how she helped lead the rebellion to victory with the help of her smuggler freind his wookie and her jedi brother.
Space combat was the main thing in STO, and it still sucked. Space combat in TOR is a distraction / minigame, there's no requirement to do any of the space missions. Minigame space shooter has no gameplay focus at all in TOR, you cant seriously compare these two on any level.
Again, regardless of how the game turned out over all, the simple fact is that STO has more options in their space instances than TOR does in their space instances.
Name callling someone doesn't change that simple fact.
It also doesn't change the point that STO was able to create more, with a very small budget and very short development cycle (less than 2 years is very short for MMO development, especiallly compared to TOR's development cycle).
Something that would change this fact, would be a solid concrete (and unbiased) reason that would have prevented BW from doing more -- such as they lost 3 years of work do to a virus, that they lost a copyright suite that forbade them from using the system they spent 4 years developing, etc.
I can respect if someone likes TOR space game, but just because they like it, doesn't mean that BW could not have done a better job or made it more appealing to OTHER people that do not share your opinion. And just because you like TOR and hate STO, doesn't change what has been demonstrated by Cryptic to be accomplished in under 2 years and on a low budget.
They never intended to have space but based on player feedback added it maybe a yr ago. So space in tor has only been in the works for a yr.
The truth is star wars isnt about space battles. Sure they had soem in the movies. Especially the origonal 3 but they still made up less then 10 pct of the movies. The majority of the movies was about he struggle between good and evil
The evil sith lords son and his daughter and how the rebellion against the empire he supported affected them.
Luke/'s journey to becomign a jedi master, hans journey to redeem himself and become more then a smuggler , To become one of the greatest generals in all star wars history,
how leia fell in love with a loveable scoundrel and how she helped lead the rebellion to victory with the help of her smuggler freind his wookie and her jedi brother.
They werent about the spac battles.
You mean all that feedback that pretty much said that they wanted anything but a rail shooter?
Also of course it about good vs evil. Which plays out on the ground and in space too. Luke learns to trust the force in a space battle. Han begans to redeem himself in a space battle and becomes a general as he designs a plan to destory death star in a space battle.
I will not play a game with a cash shop ever again. A dev job should be to make the game better not make me pay so it sucks less.
I consider myself to be a hard core Trekker (much more so than a SW fan) and there was nothing more disappointing that STO - in all respects. I pre-ordered and canceled because I could see from Beta how bad it was going to be. SWTOR on the orher hand - I pre-ordered AFTER I played Beta - it was simply the most fun and best MMO's I've played in years.
And - of course STO had more space options than SWTOR - it's ALL they had in that game lol
Oh, I agree, the game sucked big time.
However, we have not seen anything that demonstrates that TOR could not have more, which is my point. Someoe tried to claim that BW did not have the resources to add more, and I use STO as an example of how inexpensive 'more' actually is.
It is like how easy it is for players to make graphic mods for BW games like DAO, in response to the claim that it would take too many resources for BW to do the exact same thing.
People just do not like the idea that BW simply chose their space direction, instead of being limited or forced into that option/system - imo.
Space combat was the main thing in STO, and it still sucked. Space combat in TOR is a distraction / minigame, there's no requirement to do any of the space missions. Minigame space shooter has no gameplay focus at all in TOR, you cant seriously compare these two on any level.
Again, regardless of how the game turned out over all, the simple fact is that STO has more options in their space instances than TOR does in their space instances.
Name callling someone doesn't change that simple fact.
It also doesn't change the point that STO was able to create more, with a very small budget and very short development cycle (less than 2 years is very short for MMO development, especiallly compared to TOR's development cycle).
Something that would change this fact, would be a solid concrete (and unbiased) reason that would have prevented BW from doing more -- such as they lost 3 years of work do to a virus, that they lost a copyright suite that forbade them from using the system they spent 4 years developing, etc.
I can respect if someone likes TOR space game, but just because they like it, doesn't mean that BW could not have done a better job or made it more appealing to OTHER people that do not share your opinion. And just because you like TOR and hate STO, doesn't change what has been demonstrated by Cryptic to be accomplished in under 2 years and on a low budget.
Main game -> Mini game.
None of the "facts" can change that. TOR is a ground/avatar based mmorpg, not a space game. As soon as you understand that, you can stop making a fool out of your self.
Given how long BW holds onto information, I would say it is safe to say that they did not 'start working on Space' in that same month. Rather, given how their past pattern of making informaiton public, they probably had been working for space a lot longer than that.
None of the "facts" can change that. TOR is a ground/avatar based mmorpg, not a space game. As soon as you understand that, you can stop making a fool out of your self.
As the OP indicates, James Ohlen and BW consider the Space Game important enough to add to it and improve it. Thus the reason people are discussing it and possible changes they would like to see.
I agree with that Trekkie earlier. I'm a much bigger Trek fan than a Star Wars fan. BUT STO was a disaster. Their main focus was space combat. Not gonna lie, I loved the space combat. But... what else was there? Star Trek is more about the story, science fiction story. And STO really failed on that. I'd even go so far as to say Star Trek is 95% person-to-person story, and 5% space action.
Almost the same for Star Wars. Like the other guy I pre-ordered STO, played beta and then cancelled my preorder. Came back a few months later to see if it improved and it still felt hollow. The sci fi space combat was great, but there was no personality to the NPCs or the story to hook me into caring about anything.
With SWTOR I played some beta and then I preordered because it was that compelling. Sci-fi genre, Star Wars mmo, Bioware storytelling, spiritual successor to KotOR, full voice over?? Win, win, win, win, win, win. The space combat is not the most important part by a long shot.
The space combat is not the most important part by a long shot.
For myself, I do not consider the most important part, but that certainly doesn't mean I do not desire a quality space game, in addition to the rest of the game.
Considering a quality space mini-game and a quality ground main game, are not mutually exclusive, I expect to see both done well. It is just my opinion, and other people are entitled to not care about the quality -- but that does not negate those that do desire to see quality through out the game.
I agree with that Trekkie earlier. I'm a much bigger Trek fan than a Star Wars fan. BUT STO was a disaster. Their main focus was space combat. Not gonna lie, I loved the space combat. But... what else was there? Star Trek is more about the story, science fiction story. And STO really failed on that. I'd even go so far as to say Star Trek is 95% person-to-person story, and 5% space action.
Almost the same for Star Wars. Like the other guy I pre-ordered STO, played beta and then cancelled my preorder. Came back a few months later to see if it improved and it still felt hollow. The sci fi space combat was great, but there was no personality to the NPCs or the story to hook me into caring about anything.
With SWTOR I played some beta and then I preordered because it was that compelling. Sci-fi genre, Star Wars mmo, Bioware storytelling, spiritual successor to KotOR, full voice over?? Win, win, win, win, win, win. The space combat is not the most important part by a long shot.
Agreed - the space combat was cool - for a few days and then reality set in: This is it. I cancelled my pre-order.
The Other Guy
Currently playing SWTOR and it's MUCH better than it was at launch.
I feel like they could have done a lot more with the space combat and I felt let down on how they approached it. Insead of incorporating it into their game and personal story quests they tacked it on as a mini game and the "quests" involved are text and from a console (which was their design decision but this is my opinion) and it doesn't have that VO flare the rest of the game has.
Instead I feel it needed to be incorporated because I (my opinion again) feel that ship combat is a big part of Star Wars (it's impossible for me to seperate space combat from Star Wars). During your adventures between planets you're sometimes asked to visit a ship in space. It baffled me why they didn't add the rail shooter there (the design of the space combat is another post if I want to get into that) as a way to really get into the game as you're disabling the ship you're about to board. When you completed that personal story part it can be unlocked to revisit at anytime. It's almost no different from the current system as you can revisit those missions as well.
The only reason I can think of as to why they didn't incorporate it into the personal stories is because like they said they wanted to keep it seperate. Why they came to that conclusion is probably because they didn't want to scare off any MMOers with any new gameplay or mechanics that are coming over from you know where, so they kept it seperate from the main game to avoid that problem. Players may get too frustrated if they get stuck in the space combat portion of the game.
I feel like they could have done a lot more with the space combat and I felt let down on how they approached it. Insead of incorporating it into their game and personal story quests they tacked it on as a mini game and the "quests" involved are text and from a console (which was their design decision but this is my opinion) and it doesn't have that VO flare the rest of the game has.
Instead I feel it needed to be incorporated because I (my opinion again) feel that ship combat is a big part of Star Wars (it's impossible for me to seperate space combat from Star Wars). During your adventures between planets you're sometimes asked to visit a ship in space. It baffled me why they didn't add the rail shooter there (the design of the space combat is another post if I want to get into that) as a way to really get into the game as you're disabling the ship you're about to board. When you completed that personal story part it can be unlocked to revisit at anytime. It's almost no different from the current system as you can revisit those missions as well.
The only reason I can think of as to why they didn't incorporate it into the personal stories is because like they said they wanted to keep it seperate. Why they came to that conclusion is probably because they didn't want to scare off any MMOers with any new gameplay or mechanics that are coming over from you know where, so they kept it seperate from the main game to avoid that problem. Players may get too frustrated if they get stuck in the space combat portion of the game.
True...but like you and many others just want it off rails... if i want to fly by this ship or that i want to be able to do that.
and i think if it does come off rails then it would feel like rogue squadron and not feel like star fox. and that would be a HUGE improvement..
will they take it off rails ? thats still to be seen..
Well, if you must make the Rogue Squadron / StarFox comparisons:
Rogue Squadron had more free-form flight missions back on Nintendo 64, and the StarFox multiplayer (PvP) was free-form flight too.
They could take what they have and stretch it in multiple directions, while still retaining the same "core" experience and delivering something super sweet that yet is not X-Wing/Tie-Fighter.
Best thing you can do?
Play the game, be active in the community and on the forums and push for the direction you want to see the space portion go.
Pro-Tip: Devs will always always always 100% of the time respond better to positive, constructive criticism and suggetion from paying subcribers than they will to bitching and moaning from random internet-Joe non-subscriber.
Comments
Actually I am.
It is not my 'opinion' that STO was developed in under 2 years, nor that they had limited resources, nor is it my opinion that they developed a Space Combat system.
This is tangle information that existing in reality, It is not 'guessing' nor is it affected by like/dislike of Cryptic, BW or games in general.
That is what I mean by unbiased.
lolololol
Reality check: There is no, "they should simply ___..." because it is not a simple matter.
You can play 3D space sims with the mouse. You could in JTL, X-wing alliance, Freespace.
That being said do you really think it's a good thing to make something most players don't like even if it's simple?
You know TOR space shooter is to a SW game what would be the following to a Mad Max MMO:
You are being said you're going to have cars and vehicles guns to end with wheel chair races on guided sidewalks, wihout gears nor even brakes and water pistols as weapons.
Might certailnly be fun.
I would say they are the folks giving us an action/adventure MMO, rather than another Uncle Owen wet dream.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
So the problem isn't that some SW games are focused on space combat while the majority are ground based but that the only other SW MMO had free movement in space?
But wait, i thought the avatar land combat was horrid over in the land of STO? I'd go digging through the STO forums of MMORPG.com for evidence but I am pretty sure some of you already agree?
Folks don't understand that having the best of both worlds is very difficult because you simply cannot please everyone and trying to do everything makes you great at nothing but average at everything...
Pirates of the Burning Sea had great sea battles.. Great... But who actually enjoyed the avatar combat out of the box?
TOR's space missions are more robust than STO's ground missions at launch. That is a fact. Not sure why people keep bringing up STO as an example of ground and space combat. Both were shoddy at best. The space wasn't even 3d and had more invisible walls than tortage.
It basically just comes down to an agenda rather than a discussion. I've said my piece on the matter. I'm gonna have to bow out of this thread. Good luck.
I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all possible means - except by getting off his back.
Space combat was the main thing in STO, and it still sucked. Space combat in TOR is a distraction / minigame, there's no requirement to do any of the space missions. Minigame space shooter has no gameplay focus at all in TOR, you cant seriously compare these two on any level.
Just saying, it's annoying as hell on forums like this witnessing poor attempts at bashing games for irrelevant stuff. Rage is piece of shit game because the racing part is not on par with Forza, heck even the racing in Rage has a lot bigger gameplay focus and more or less required, than minigame space shooter in TOR which has no gameplay focus at all currently.
Again, regardless of how the game turned out over all, the simple fact is that STO has more options in their space instances than TOR does in their space instances.
Name callling someone doesn't change that simple fact.
It also doesn't change the point that STO was able to create more, with a very small budget and very short development cycle (less than 2 years is very short for MMO development, especiallly compared to TOR's development cycle).
Something that would change this fact, would be a solid concrete (and unbiased) reason that would have prevented BW from doing more -- such as they lost 3 years of work do to a virus, that they lost a copyright suite that forbade them from using the system they spent 4 years developing, etc.
I can respect if someone likes TOR space game, but just because they like it, doesn't mean that BW could not have done a better job or made it more appealing to OTHER people that do not share your opinion. And just because you like TOR and hate STO, doesn't change what has been demonstrated by Cryptic to be accomplished in under 2 years and on a low budget.
I consider myself to be a hard core Trekker (much more so than a SW fan) and there was nothing more disappointing that STO - in all respects. I pre-ordered and canceled because I could see from Beta how bad it was going to be. SWTOR on the orher hand - I pre-ordered AFTER I played Beta - it was simply the most fun and best MMO's I've played in years.
And - of course STO had more space options than SWTOR - it's ALL they had in that game lol
Currently playing SWTOR and it's MUCH better than it was at launch.
They never intended to have space but based on player feedback added it maybe a yr ago. So space in tor has only been in the works for a yr.
The truth is star wars isnt about space battles. Sure they had soem in the movies. Especially the origonal 3 but they still made up less then 10 pct of the movies. The majority of the movies was about he struggle between good and evil
The evil sith lords son and his daughter and how the rebellion against the empire he supported affected them.
Luke/'s journey to becomign a jedi master, hans journey to redeem himself and become more then a smuggler , To become one of the greatest generals in all star wars history,
how leia fell in love with a loveable scoundrel and how she helped lead the rebellion to victory with the help of her smuggler freind his wookie and her jedi brother.
They werent about the spac battles.
You mean all that feedback that pretty much said that they wanted anything but a rail shooter?
Also of course it about good vs evil. Which plays out on the ground and in space too. Luke learns to trust the force in a space battle. Han begans to redeem himself in a space battle and becomes a general as he designs a plan to destory death star in a space battle.
I will not play a game with a cash shop ever again. A dev job should be to make the game better not make me pay so it sucks less.
Oh, I agree, the game sucked big time.
However, we have not seen anything that demonstrates that TOR could not have more, which is my point. Someoe tried to claim that BW did not have the resources to add more, and I use STO as an example of how inexpensive 'more' actually is.
It is like how easy it is for players to make graphic mods for BW games like DAO, in response to the claim that it would take too many resources for BW to do the exact same thing.
People just do not like the idea that BW simply chose their space direction, instead of being limited or forced into that option/system - imo.
Main game -> Mini game.
None of the "facts" can change that. TOR is a ground/avatar based mmorpg, not a space game. As soon as you understand that, you can stop making a fool out of your self.
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Yet they announced the inclusion of space combat as part of the game back in July of 2010
http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/bioware-mmo-project/1108450p1.html
Given how long BW holds onto information, I would say it is safe to say that they did not 'start working on Space' in that same month. Rather, given how their past pattern of making informaiton public, they probably had been working for space a lot longer than that.
As the OP indicates, James Ohlen and BW consider the Space Game important enough to add to it and improve it. Thus the reason people are discussing it and possible changes they would like to see.
I agree with that Trekkie earlier. I'm a much bigger Trek fan than a Star Wars fan. BUT STO was a disaster. Their main focus was space combat. Not gonna lie, I loved the space combat. But... what else was there? Star Trek is more about the story, science fiction story. And STO really failed on that. I'd even go so far as to say Star Trek is 95% person-to-person story, and 5% space action.
Almost the same for Star Wars. Like the other guy I pre-ordered STO, played beta and then cancelled my preorder. Came back a few months later to see if it improved and it still felt hollow. The sci fi space combat was great, but there was no personality to the NPCs or the story to hook me into caring about anything.
With SWTOR I played some beta and then I preordered because it was that compelling. Sci-fi genre, Star Wars mmo, Bioware storytelling, spiritual successor to KotOR, full voice over?? Win, win, win, win, win, win. The space combat is not the most important part by a long shot.
For myself, I do not consider the most important part, but that certainly doesn't mean I do not desire a quality space game, in addition to the rest of the game.
Considering a quality space mini-game and a quality ground main game, are not mutually exclusive, I expect to see both done well. It is just my opinion, and other people are entitled to not care about the quality -- but that does not negate those that do desire to see quality through out the game.
Agreed - the space combat was cool - for a few days and then reality set in: This is it. I cancelled my pre-order.
The Other Guy
Currently playing SWTOR and it's MUCH better than it was at launch.
I feel like they could have done a lot more with the space combat and I felt let down on how they approached it. Insead of incorporating it into their game and personal story quests they tacked it on as a mini game and the "quests" involved are text and from a console (which was their design decision but this is my opinion) and it doesn't have that VO flare the rest of the game has.
Instead I feel it needed to be incorporated because I (my opinion again) feel that ship combat is a big part of Star Wars (it's impossible for me to seperate space combat from Star Wars). During your adventures between planets you're sometimes asked to visit a ship in space. It baffled me why they didn't add the rail shooter there (the design of the space combat is another post if I want to get into that) as a way to really get into the game as you're disabling the ship you're about to board. When you completed that personal story part it can be unlocked to revisit at anytime. It's almost no different from the current system as you can revisit those missions as well.
The only reason I can think of as to why they didn't incorporate it into the personal stories is because like they said they wanted to keep it seperate. Why they came to that conclusion is probably because they didn't want to scare off any MMOers with any new gameplay or mechanics that are coming over from you know where, so they kept it seperate from the main game to avoid that problem. Players may get too frustrated if they get stuck in the space combat portion of the game.
True...but like you and many others just want it off rails... if i want to fly by this ship or that i want to be able to do that.
and i think if it does come off rails then it would feel like rogue squadron and not feel like star fox. and that would be a HUGE improvement..
will they take it off rails ? thats still to be seen..
but if they do it would make a lot of peeps happy
I am hoping that is basically what JO was infering when he mentioned the improvements and 'Rogue Squadron' by name.
Removing the rails, and allowing for free movement on the horizontal plan, would be a big improvement - imo.