Whatever you say, you can win this round if it makes you feel better, because at the end of the day, the game is how it is. You can either deal with it and complain you need flashy lights so you can play your class adequately, and hope BioWare does something about it, or you can learn to play your class in the meantime. (or play a different class if you have a problem).
Arguing about it right here, right now, isn't going to change the fact that the game played exactly how it was supposed to play all through beta, and if you didn't like that 1 passive ability that was optional to select, thats your choice.
although you guys defending how it currently is seem to be the minority since they already are changing the UI and I'm will not be suprised at all if macros aren't far behind. Unless you are saying the minority is influencing bioware on how to shape there game
I believe he was speaking about proc and cooldown indicators. They're fixing the UI - apparently - but that doesn't mean they'll be adding the effects in the process.
IMO, I never had a problem with the default UI. That's just me! I'll welcome the new changes so long as they aren't too off-the-wall.
That said, I would like to clairify: I do not think having or not having indicators makes anything more difficult. It's easy either way, I don't see a problem.
You know, with TOR being so gung-ho about animations, I don't see why the indicator can't come about via an on-screen animation visual.
For a skill that can only be activated after a dodge, make the players character dodge an attack in an especially noticable way, maybe with a unique sound or particle effect. This way there's more looking at the action and less looking at colored icons, and yet you still have to pay attention to whats going on with your character and the enemy.
Which ability are you talking about? The ability in question was the passive Duplicity... which is optional. Duplicity doesn't proc on slow release medpac.. those are two different classes.....
The ability I originally based my post off was Upper Hand. Scoundrel/Operatives get Upper Hand/Tactical Advantage that can proc off the 2s heal ability, the Shiv ability, or a 30% proc off the slow-release medpac ability.
The fact that you're referring to a different ability is irrelevant, it still occurs in other scenarios in the game. I'm not saying I don't make it work, I like to think I play a very good Scoundrel, but I think it could be better done. Currently it can proc while I'm in the middle of about anything, since the 18s duration of slow-release. It's not that noticable of an animation, and I can have 7-8 buffs up easily at any given time. I just think they could either make it more recognizable, or have a seperate indicator for combo/tactical buffs as opposed to normal buffs.
No, it isn't irrelevant, because multiple abilities grant upper hand, some of which grant it almost immediately, whereas Duplicity is 1 passive with a high proc rate spread across direct damage abilities.
Again its all about how you play your class, it doesn't just proc randomly, it procs off of ability usage, and is pretty much always going to proc off of slow release medpac within 5 seconds after speccing into medpac mastery.
You know, with TOR being so gung-ho about animations, I don't see why the indicator can't come about via an on-screen animation visual.
For a skill that can only be activated after a dodge, make the players character dodge an attack in an especially noticable way, maybe with a unique sound or particle effect. This way there's more looking at the action and less looking at colored icons, and yet you still have to pay attention to whats going on with your character and the enemy.
I believe he was speaking about proc and cooldown indicators. They're fixing the UI - apparently - but that doesn't mean they'll be adding the effects in the process.
IMO, I never had a problem with the default UI. That's just me! I'll welcome the new changes so long as they aren't too off-the-wall.
true but being able to move my bars around how I see fit would solve the issue for me at least.
Sith warrior skill "Retaliation" had an animation indicator when it was available (when you successfully blocked or dodged you'd get a big flash of lightsabre energy)
I wouldn't be surprised if the other classes that had these type of skills didn't have somesort of indicator that most people have just not noticed in Beta yet.
You know, with TOR being so gung-ho about animations, I don't see why the indicator can't come about via an on-screen animation visual.
For a skill that can only be activated after a dodge, make the players character dodge an attack in an especially noticable way, maybe with a unique sound or particle effect. This way there's more looking at the action and less looking at colored icons, and yet you still have to pay attention to whats going on with your character and the enemy.
hopefully next gen MMO's will all follow this thought process... well see
I believe he was speaking about proc and cooldown indicators. They're fixing the UI - apparently - but that doesn't mean they'll be adding the effects in the process.
IMO, I never had a problem with the default UI. That's just me! I'll welcome the new changes so long as they aren't too off-the-wall.
true but being able to move my bars around how I see fit would solve the issue for me at least.
Then in that case maybe it will fix a number of issues if resizing is possible too and they can resize the proc indicators....
The point I'm trying to make is, it isn't tough, it isn't confusing, is it a little inconvenient for some players? I'm sure it is, but so is running without sprint from 1 - 14, or dying in an area where you can't self rez...
If they don't end up having a parade every time an ability procs it won't be the end of the world. That is all.
I would say though, you're probably right, as there are plenty of people out there where looking at a skill bar for a millisecond when you activate a direct damage ability would probably seem "hard" for some people.... I never considered looking at a bar to be "hard" before, but I guess there are people like that out there. I guess if they want to get the broadest player base possible they might as well add "accessibility" options for players who can't see the icons -- so I guess I'll agree with you afterall.
I never said it was hard. I said it was a dumb way to introduce difficulty. It is not harder to look at a buff icon, it's just sloppy and poor game design.
Taking a milisecond to look down is hardly considered sloppy or poor design. That's pretty snappy, imo; of course, I'm sure there's so much more than could be done in that vast gap of time between looking at your bar and whatever else you might be doing.
Ok, so 10 seconds passes. I know look down, the buff hasn't procced... I look down a second later, then a second later, then a second later, then a second later, then a second later... AND NOW IT PROCS.
That's dumb game design. I shouldn't be monitoring a damn buff bar outside my field of vision every 10 seconds waiting for a proc.
EVE Online just now added a scaling UI and it's been out how many years now?
Just sayin..
My point exactly.
There's plenty of time to add trivial things like this. Let BW focus on major bugs instead of pointless attention-grabbers. It'll all come in time, anyway.
For the OP: That is my opinion as to why they've decided not to add the flashy graphics coincidentally, it also happens to be the majority opinion - judging by this thread, that is.
but thats like square enix releasing the next final fantasy game with less features than any previous games(oh wait they did that ffXIV). You build upon what is out and expand on it. The game obviously borrows a lot from other MMOs yet is lacking in so many other things and not really expand upon whats already out there this doesn't take a genre forward but backwards. I don't want to start another one of these debates cause many threads on the issue already. But the point is a lot of these "trivial" things should of been put in for release if they had been planning on putting them in
This whole notion that a game has to be released with every tiny feature that already exists in games with years of patching is quite simply wrong. I don't really know where you picked this up, but you're only going to disappoint yourself with it.
No, it isn't irrelevant, because multiple abilities grant upper hand, some of which grant it almost immediately, whereas Duplicity is 1 passive with a high proc rate spread across direct damage abilities.
Again its all about how you play your class, it doesn't just proc randomly, it procs off of ability usage, and is pretty much always going to proc off of slow release medpac within 5 seconds after speccing into medpac mastery.
I'm not sure if you just don't understand the mechanic, or if you are just blinded by bias.
It can proc off every health tic at a 30% rate, ever 3 seconds, for 18 seconds. It can be up on multiple targets. It can be reset if you cast a second application on a target.
I can have it up on 10 different people each with a tic every 3 seconds. Basically at ANY given second it can proc, and the only indication is the buff icon that sits on a bar next to 7-10 other tiny icons, and a small circle animation that is less than noticable in the middle of a fight.
On top of that, it can reproc if I use my instant heal that consumes 1 charge on a target below 30% hp. But I don't know if they are at 29% or 31% when I heal them. So it may re-proc instantly or it may not. Plus it could have procced off a slow-release while I was spamming my instant free heal to try and keep someone else alive.
It's not at all about how you play your class, it's about the design of the healing tree for Scoundrel. I'm not asking for some giant on screen indicator, I just think it could be better done.
I would say though, you're probably right, as there are plenty of people out there where looking at a skill bar for a millisecond when you activate a direct damage ability would probably seem "hard" for some people.... I never considered looking at a bar to be "hard" before, but I guess there are people like that out there. I guess if they want to get the broadest player base possible they might as well add "accessibility" options for players who can't see the icons -- so I guess I'll agree with you afterall.
I never said it was hard. I said it was a dumb way to introduce difficulty. It is not harder to look at a buff icon, it's just sloppy and poor game design.
Taking a milisecond to look down is hardly considered sloppy or poor design. That's pretty snappy, imo; of course, I'm sure there's so much more than could be done in that vast gap of time between looking at your bar and whatever else you might be doing.
Ok, so 10 seconds passes. I know look down, the buff hasn't procced... I look down a second later, then a second later, then a second later, then a second later, then a second later... AND NOW IT PROCS.
That's dumb game design. I shouldn't be monitoring a damn buff bar outside my field of vision every 10 seconds waiting for a proc.
Thats a lot of looking down for no reason, you'd hit an ability, check for proc, next ability, check for proc, within 3 abilities you'll have a proc then you have another 10 seconds. Its a quick glance down, its not like you've got to search far and wide.
Again, if we're to compromise, maybe its a little tougher then we are saying it is, and maybe its a little easier than you're saying it is, at the end of the day, it is what it is. Its not a gamebreaker.
I would say though, you're probably right, as there are plenty of people out there where looking at a skill bar for a millisecond when you activate a direct damage ability would probably seem "hard" for some people.... I never considered looking at a bar to be "hard" before, but I guess there are people like that out there. I guess if they want to get the broadest player base possible they might as well add "accessibility" options for players who can't see the icons -- so I guess I'll agree with you afterall.
I never said it was hard. I said it was a dumb way to introduce difficulty. It is not harder to look at a buff icon, it's just sloppy and poor game design.
Taking a milisecond to look down is hardly considered sloppy or poor design. That's pretty snappy, imo; of course, I'm sure there's so much more than could be done in that vast gap of time between looking at your bar and whatever else you might be doing.
Ok, so 10 seconds passes. I know look down, the buff hasn't procced... I look down a second later, then a second later, then a second later, then a second later, then a second later... AND NOW IT PROCS.
That's dumb game design. I shouldn't be monitoring a damn buff bar outside my field of vision every 10 seconds waiting for a proc.
It almost sounds like you don't enjoy playing the game but just play it to be competitive.
abilities that required tactical advantage were greyed out and unavailable until tactical advantage proc'd, then those abilities were no longer greyed out, how is that not a reactive indicator?
I had no issue at all knowing when I had tactical advantage and when I could or could not use the abilities that required it.
A creative person is motivated by the desire to achieve, not the desire to beat others.
I would say though, you're probably right, as there are plenty of people out there where looking at a skill bar for a millisecond when you activate a direct damage ability would probably seem "hard" for some people.... I never considered looking at a bar to be "hard" before, but I guess there are people like that out there. I guess if they want to get the broadest player base possible they might as well add "accessibility" options for players who can't see the icons -- so I guess I'll agree with you afterall.
I never said it was hard. I said it was a dumb way to introduce difficulty. It is not harder to look at a buff icon, it's just sloppy and poor game design.
Taking a milisecond to look down is hardly considered sloppy or poor design. That's pretty snappy, imo; of course, I'm sure there's so much more than could be done in that vast gap of time between looking at your bar and whatever else you might be doing.
Ok, so 10 seconds passes. I know look down, the buff hasn't procced... I look down a second later, then a second later, then a second later, then a second later, then a second later... AND NOW IT PROCS.
That's dumb game design. I shouldn't be monitoring a damn buff bar outside my field of vision every 10 seconds waiting for a proc.
I still remember the wow forums when they first implemented this feature, I think it was about a year and a half ago, so it had went 6 years or so without it. There was an uproar, as there is with everything on the wow forums, decrying the "dumbing down" of the game even further. They would call it the "push me now" indicator. I didn't really think much of it because I was use to it the old way and didn't really care either way. Then my guild raided the next night after the change and the two weakest raiders in the guild instantly increased their dps by about 20 percent. Then I realized, wow they were just incapable of paying attention on their own and had to have a glowy light pop up for them to know when to use their abilities. Then I quit wow. again.
I still resub every now and then but that was just a kind of eye opening experience to know that prior to the change these two were to an extent holding the raids back in the past, and I realized it was simply because they couldn't bother to pay attention to their abilities, but now they were told when to push what button and their dps went up quite a bit. When asked about it in vent they both basically said that, yeah now we know when to do x ability its alot easier. Sigh.
edit: I'm not saying I quit wow because they implemented this feature, it was just one of those "last straw" type deal that most people who quit an mmo go through.
No, it isn't irrelevant, because multiple abilities grant upper hand, some of which grant it almost immediately, whereas Duplicity is 1 passive with a high proc rate spread across direct damage abilities.
Again its all about how you play your class, it doesn't just proc randomly, it procs off of ability usage, and is pretty much always going to proc off of slow release medpac within 5 seconds after speccing into medpac mastery.
I'm not sure if you just don't understand the mechanic, or if you are just blinded by bias.
It can proc off every health tic at a 30% rate, ever 3 seconds, for 18 seconds. It can be up on multiple targets. It can be reset if you cast a second application on a target.
I can have it up on 10 different people each with a tic every 3 seconds. Basically at ANY given second it can proc, and the only indication is the buff icon that sits on a bar next to 7-10 other tiny icons, and a small circle animation that is less than noticable in the middle of a fight.
On top of that, it can reproc if I use my instant heal that consumes 1 charge on a target below 30% hp. But I don't know if they are at 29% or 31% when I heal them. So it may re-proc instantly or it may not. Plus it could have procced off a slow-release while I was spamming my instant free heal to try and keep someone else alive.
It's not at all about how you play your class, it's about the design of the healing tree for Scoundrel. I'm not asking for some giant on screen indicator, I just think it could be better done.
lol its exactly how you play your class, these judgement calls are all about how you play the game? You really want to complain to BioWare that you don't know if someone is a 29% health or 31%... this is truly ridiculous. I'll be playing a scoundrel on launch, and in no way is it nearly as random or crazy as you are trying to say it is. Its actually pretty consistent that in multiple targets you are guaranteed a quick proc..
again with medpac mastery at max it does have a quick return, and its supposed to, checking your bar for an icon shouldn't even be an issue with the speed at which you receive upper hand at max level. Again, people are trying to make this out to be tougher than it really is.
Could the entire healing tree be redone? Well if you want to make it easier you could take away upper hand altogether, or make it more like the sage tree which has ability procs in a completely different manner, but then you'd need to supplement it for something else. Using upper hand the way its currently implemented (and has been implemented for months) gives the class some added strategy.
You don't need to master it to be a good healer, but knowing how to use it makes you an awesome healer.
abilities that required tactical advantage were greyed out and unavailable until tactical advantage proc'd, then those abilities were no longer greyed out, how is that not a reactive indicator?
I had no issue at all knowing when I had tactical advantage and when I could or could not use the abilities that required it.
How about differentiating between 1 and 2 procs. When to use Shiv, and when to Lacerate first then Shiv since you already have 2 procs, or because you thought you had 1, but a slow-release medpac added another, so you wasted Shiv first instead of lacerating.
I'm not saying it didn't work, I'm saying it would be a very small and simple thing to make it better.
the whole macro debate always happens where mmo discussions take place.
When I played rift I remember reading threads just like this with all the same aurguments. The biggest defence for macros in rift was that certian keyboards and mice can program macros so adding them in the game makes it more balanced. I have no idea how these types of keyboards work so maybe someone else can tell me the difference between in game macros and programable keyboards ?
Anyways for me personally I will always just adapt to the tools that the game gives me and I had no problems going from rifts macro system to swtors no macro system and it wont bother me at all.
Wow, man. I feel your pain. I mean, actually having to pay attention to things. The horror.
hope you enjoy it at 50 with dozens of abilties and no way to tell when you reactives are ready other than spamming the key hoping they are available or stare at your hotbar.. loads of fun there
I started gaming before indicators, unlike you, i know how to play my toon perfectly without relying heavily on indicators. You forget that indicator crap is a adaptation of a WoW mod, its not in everquest 1 or 2, its not in final fantasy 11, its not in lineage so most first generation Gamers know how to play without relying on crutches.
I started console gaming before high-quality dual-stick gaming pads, unlike you, i know how to play a console game on a crappy 2-button 1-DPad NES controller without relying on fancy joysticks and more than 3 buttons. dual joysticks were not on the NES, so most first generation Gamers know to play without relying on such crutches.
...
See how dumb that sounds? By your logic, since "first generation Gamers" technically got along just fine with NES type controllers and, for PC gamers, old mechanical ball-mice, any gamer who relies on a high-quality dual-joystick gamepad or a high DPI lazer mouse with more than 2-3 buttons is merely relying on a "crutch" that old-school gamers knew how to play without... but this is just nonsense.
Comments
I believe he was speaking about proc and cooldown indicators. They're fixing the UI - apparently - but that doesn't mean they'll be adding the effects in the process.
IMO, I never had a problem with the default UI. That's just me! I'll welcome the new changes so long as they aren't too off-the-wall.
That said, I would like to clairify: I do not think having or not having indicators makes anything more difficult. It's easy either way, I don't see a problem.
You know, with TOR being so gung-ho about animations, I don't see why the indicator can't come about via an on-screen animation visual.
For a skill that can only be activated after a dodge, make the players character dodge an attack in an especially noticable way, maybe with a unique sound or particle effect. This way there's more looking at the action and less looking at colored icons, and yet you still have to pay attention to whats going on with your character and the enemy.
No, it isn't irrelevant, because multiple abilities grant upper hand, some of which grant it almost immediately, whereas Duplicity is 1 passive with a high proc rate spread across direct damage abilities.
Again its all about how you play your class, it doesn't just proc randomly, it procs off of ability usage, and is pretty much always going to proc off of slow release medpac within 5 seconds after speccing into medpac mastery.
This is my opinion as well. Put a priority animation on the character for procs. That rewards paying attention w/out lame buff bar watching.
That would actually be pretty neat, lol.
true but being able to move my bars around how I see fit would solve the issue for me at least.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/339443/Video-FollowUp-Guide-For-Enhancing-Graphics-and-Performance-in-SWTORSorry-still-Nvidia-Only.html
Sith warrior skill "Retaliation" had an animation indicator when it was available (when you successfully blocked or dodged you'd get a big flash of lightsabre energy)
I wouldn't be surprised if the other classes that had these type of skills didn't have somesort of indicator that most people have just not noticed in Beta yet.
hopefully next gen MMO's will all follow this thought process... well see
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/339443/Video-FollowUp-Guide-For-Enhancing-Graphics-and-Performance-in-SWTORSorry-still-Nvidia-Only.html
Then in that case maybe it will fix a number of issues if resizing is possible too and they can resize the proc indicators....
The point I'm trying to make is, it isn't tough, it isn't confusing, is it a little inconvenient for some players? I'm sure it is, but so is running without sprint from 1 - 14, or dying in an area where you can't self rez...
If they don't end up having a parade every time an ability procs it won't be the end of the world. That is all.
Macros are not needed given the fastpace multi-target combat.
WOW the OP is up to 400+ posts in this forum in 2 weeks. Coulldn't PAY me to post that much about a game I do not like.
:-)
Ok, so 10 seconds passes. I know look down, the buff hasn't procced... I look down a second later, then a second later, then a second later, then a second later, then a second later... AND NOW IT PROCS.
That's dumb game design. I shouldn't be monitoring a damn buff bar outside my field of vision every 10 seconds waiting for a proc.
This whole notion that a game has to be released with every tiny feature that already exists in games with years of patching is quite simply wrong. I don't really know where you picked this up, but you're only going to disappoint yourself with it.
who said I don't like the game? never said that once..
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/339443/Video-FollowUp-Guide-For-Enhancing-Graphics-and-Performance-in-SWTORSorry-still-Nvidia-Only.html
I'm not sure if you just don't understand the mechanic, or if you are just blinded by bias.
It can proc off every health tic at a 30% rate, ever 3 seconds, for 18 seconds. It can be up on multiple targets. It can be reset if you cast a second application on a target.
I can have it up on 10 different people each with a tic every 3 seconds. Basically at ANY given second it can proc, and the only indication is the buff icon that sits on a bar next to 7-10 other tiny icons, and a small circle animation that is less than noticable in the middle of a fight.
On top of that, it can reproc if I use my instant heal that consumes 1 charge on a target below 30% hp. But I don't know if they are at 29% or 31% when I heal them. So it may re-proc instantly or it may not. Plus it could have procced off a slow-release while I was spamming my instant free heal to try and keep someone else alive.
It's not at all about how you play your class, it's about the design of the healing tree for Scoundrel. I'm not asking for some giant on screen indicator, I just think it could be better done.
Thats a lot of looking down for no reason, you'd hit an ability, check for proc, next ability, check for proc, within 3 abilities you'll have a proc then you have another 10 seconds. Its a quick glance down, its not like you've got to search far and wide.
Again, if we're to compromise, maybe its a little tougher then we are saying it is, and maybe its a little easier than you're saying it is, at the end of the day, it is what it is. Its not a gamebreaker.
It almost sounds like you don't enjoy playing the game but just play it to be competitive.
abilities that required tactical advantage were greyed out and unavailable until tactical advantage proc'd, then those abilities were no longer greyed out, how is that not a reactive indicator?
I had no issue at all knowing when I had tactical advantage and when I could or could not use the abilities that required it.
A creative person is motivated by the desire to achieve, not the desire to beat others.
I still remember the wow forums when they first implemented this feature, I think it was about a year and a half ago, so it had went 6 years or so without it. There was an uproar, as there is with everything on the wow forums, decrying the "dumbing down" of the game even further. They would call it the "push me now" indicator. I didn't really think much of it because I was use to it the old way and didn't really care either way. Then my guild raided the next night after the change and the two weakest raiders in the guild instantly increased their dps by about 20 percent. Then I realized, wow they were just incapable of paying attention on their own and had to have a glowy light pop up for them to know when to use their abilities. Then I quit wow. again.
I still resub every now and then but that was just a kind of eye opening experience to know that prior to the change these two were to an extent holding the raids back in the past, and I realized it was simply because they couldn't bother to pay attention to their abilities, but now they were told when to push what button and their dps went up quite a bit. When asked about it in vent they both basically said that, yeah now we know when to do x ability its alot easier. Sigh.
edit: I'm not saying I quit wow because they implemented this feature, it was just one of those "last straw" type deal that most people who quit an mmo go through.
lol its exactly how you play your class, these judgement calls are all about how you play the game? You really want to complain to BioWare that you don't know if someone is a 29% health or 31%... this is truly ridiculous. I'll be playing a scoundrel on launch, and in no way is it nearly as random or crazy as you are trying to say it is. Its actually pretty consistent that in multiple targets you are guaranteed a quick proc..
again with medpac mastery at max it does have a quick return, and its supposed to, checking your bar for an icon shouldn't even be an issue with the speed at which you receive upper hand at max level. Again, people are trying to make this out to be tougher than it really is.
Could the entire healing tree be redone? Well if you want to make it easier you could take away upper hand altogether, or make it more like the sage tree which has ability procs in a completely different manner, but then you'd need to supplement it for something else. Using upper hand the way its currently implemented (and has been implemented for months) gives the class some added strategy.
You don't need to master it to be a good healer, but knowing how to use it makes you an awesome healer.
How about differentiating between 1 and 2 procs. When to use Shiv, and when to Lacerate first then Shiv since you already have 2 procs, or because you thought you had 1, but a slow-release medpac added another, so you wasted Shiv first instead of lacerating.
I'm not saying it didn't work, I'm saying it would be a very small and simple thing to make it better.
This.
I think the gist of this whole thread is: if it's not like WoW, it's sloppy and poor game design.
Get over it.
As I've already said.. Both Jedis Repost and Sith Retaliation do have on screen animations/indications when they have proc'd.
What skills are we talking about that dont'?
the whole macro debate always happens where mmo discussions take place.
When I played rift I remember reading threads just like this with all the same aurguments. The biggest defence for macros in rift was that certian keyboards and mice can program macros so adding them in the game makes it more balanced. I have no idea how these types of keyboards work so maybe someone else can tell me the difference between in game macros and programable keyboards ?
Anyways for me personally I will always just adapt to the tools that the game gives me and I had no problems going from rifts macro system to swtors no macro system and it wont bother me at all.
I started console gaming before high-quality dual-stick gaming pads, unlike you, i know how to play a console game on a crappy 2-button 1-DPad NES controller without relying on fancy joysticks and more than 3 buttons. dual joysticks were not on the NES, so most first generation Gamers know to play without relying on such crutches.
...
See how dumb that sounds? By your logic, since "first generation Gamers" technically got along just fine with NES type controllers and, for PC gamers, old mechanical ball-mice, any gamer who relies on a high-quality dual-joystick gamepad or a high DPI lazer mouse with more than 2-3 buttons is merely relying on a "crutch" that old-school gamers knew how to play without... but this is just nonsense.