I for one love it, RPG's are suposed to be about story's and this is the first MMO to actually make you feel like a quest is a quest. (AoC had it for the first 20 lvl's).
So to each is own i guess.
RPGs are about story? That's a novel opinion, because if you track down and check the roots of the whole genre, you'll find out that RPG were actually about a bunch of characters with very little background information who got together and cleaned a multi-floor dungeon. I'm not saying the genre did not shift over the years towards more story-oriented gameplay, however, to say RPG's are about story is not totally true.
Umm yes they are,
Role Playing Game, You are taking on the role of a character to what eat cheetos? RPGs are about adventure's (story) Dungeon running (story) getting together with friends to create? (storys)
RPGs are ALL ABOUT STORY my friend.
Not necessarily, you might check the history of the genre. The story was minimal (sort of an evil villain occupying a dungeon), and it was all about combat and character advancement.
You never played pen and paper games I take it?
You don't tell stories in pen & paper, you play games, both the GM and the player actually play the game. In fact the GM have a scenario and the player act in this scenario. It was never about story telling.
The campaign was plotted out by the DM, the players acted within it reacting to the story as it unfolded. A good DM had these situations thought out and was prepared to steer them back on the story line. Most campaigns had an underlying theme.
That's about teh dumbest thing I've ever read. coming from dice pen and paper way back I'd say that you have no clue what you are talking about. Story was EVERYTHING!
Back in the AD&D or Traveller days, the 'story' was told by the DM, much like reading a book. We rolled die to 'hit' something, and the DM would tell us what happened.
Flash foward to 2012, and a lot of the 'story' is now told via graphics. We see the environment, the atmosphere, the mood, etc. We now 'play' to see what happens. There is much less 'story' that needs to be 'told', as we are experiencing it more fully.
Imo, that is the point that current gamers prefer. They want to play the story, rather than be told -- or in the criticism of TOR, be shown the story. I think this is what is refered to when people say 'the game plays for them'.
When AOC launched and there was only voiceover for the first 20 levels there was an upproar on how bad it was that there were no voices in the rest of the game.
Now there is finally and MMO with full voiceover and the complaints come pouring in
The complaints are not about the Voice Overs though, but rather the other stuff that outside the Voice overs.
Just because BW put in full VO's, doesn't mean that the rest of the game aspects get an automatic pass. Rather what we have seen is that while we have VO's, many other aspects of the game seems to have taken a hit. It is not as if they took everything that works in other MMO's and added VO.
Imo, what people wanted was a 2012 MMO (basically taking what works in Rift, WoW, LoTro) and add VO's to it. What it seems the critics are saying, is that they recieved a 2004 MMO (missing a lot of the inovations between 2004-2011) with added VO's.
I dont consider insta que dungeon finders / "phasing" / gear tokens and dailies innovations. Tell me again exactly what innovation has occured since 2004?
When AOC launched and there was only voiceover for the first 20 levels there was an upproar on how bad it was that there were no voices in the rest of the game.
Now there is finally and MMO with full voiceover and the complaints come pouring in
The complaints are not about the Voice Overs though, but rather the other stuff that outside the Voice overs.
Just because BW put in full VO's, doesn't mean that the rest of the game aspects get an automatic pass. Rather what we have seen is that while we have VO's, many other aspects of the game seems to have taken a hit. It is not as if they took everything that works in other MMO's and added VO.
Imo, what people wanted was a 2012 MMO (basically taking what works in Rift, WoW, LoTro) and add VO's to it. What it seems the critics are saying, is that they recieved a 2004 MMO (missing a lot of the inovations between 2004-2011) with added VO's.
I dont consider insta que dungeon finders / "phasing" / gear tokens and dailies innovations. Tell me again exactly what innovation has occured since 2004?
^^ This!! I agree completely - the only innovations made in this genre since 2004 have made the MMO better and killed the RPG. Most of the games out there now shouldn't be given the right to be called MMORPGs, they should be refered to for what they are, MMOGs.
(DISCLAIMER - The use of the word YOU in the above post is not directed at any one person in particular, but towards those who fall into the category itself - there is no personal attack here, neither intentional nor implied.)
"Oh my life is completely void of purpose, I must have another WoW clone, please do not ignore me Bioware, God of Mediocrity!"
It's just desparing to see that so many people were too weak to resist a temptation, instead they choose to finacially feed the beast, the same beast whom wants to condemn this world to silence. That may be the worst but not the only reason people deserve hate SWtoR subscribers. Another is that you willfully accept this game, by doing so, you tell developers everywhere, "Yes, this is what we all LOVE to play." This not only hurts the "MMO genre", but also hurts the Star Wars franchise, a franchise that will not likely ever release a good game from here on out. That not only saddens me because I'm a huge starwars fan, but greatly disappoints me, and each and every one of you who partake in success of these mediocre games help strengthen their hold on the genre.
Once in a while you could just say no, and maybe even directly tell those developers to actually create something new and interesting with their exorbitant funding.
This one is more American focused, but for once in this generation I would love to see some spine from those that call themselves human beings.
If you believe that all this hate is undeserved, then you are truly a fool amongst fools. Oh look at the time *Invisible wrist watch check* It's past my bedtime. (New record, only used "WoW Clone" once! *High five*)
When AOC launched and there was only voiceover for the first 20 levels there was an upproar on how bad it was that there were no voices in the rest of the game.
Now there is finally and MMO with full voiceover and the complaints come pouring in
The complaints are not about the Voice Overs though, but rather the other stuff that outside the Voice overs.
Just because BW put in full VO's, doesn't mean that the rest of the game aspects get an automatic pass. Rather what we have seen is that while we have VO's, many other aspects of the game seems to have taken a hit. It is not as if they took everything that works in other MMO's and added VO.
Imo, what people wanted was a 2012 MMO (basically taking what works in Rift, WoW, LoTro) and add VO's to it. What it seems the critics are saying, is that they recieved a 2004 MMO (missing a lot of the inovations between 2004-2011) with added VO's.
I dont consider insta que dungeon finders / "phasing" / gear tokens and dailies innovations. Tell me again exactly what innovation has occured since 2004?
To list a few:
Dynamic Events
talent-tree-less progression
action combat with hitboxes instead of LOS hit-detection
Three of us played the open bata. I dropped out from playing SWTOR because of the Voice acting. I could not take Bioware playing the game for me any longer.
Both friends were playing the pre-release on Friday and admit that they are already hitting the space bar and are getting annoyed with the Voice acting. Both are StarWars fans and trying there hardest to like the game. But you could tell that something is wrong. I'm sure you know the look on someones face when they are hiding disappointment.....I would probably be with them if I were a hard core StarWars fan, but I'm not.
What do you think, honestly ?
Everybody playing will be hitting the space bar skipping cut-scenes 2-3 months from now...Its not a prediction its a fact. TOR is nothing new once the perty cut-scenes are taken out of the equation :-/ Anyone with a head on their shoulders will wait until TOR offers a trial or goes f2p before paying the full box price for the same old...same old.
Ummm pretty sure that isn't a fact. Like at all. No really... it isn't even close to a fact. And in 2-3 months I'm going to make sure I don't hit my spacebar just to disprove your fact.
Let me start by saying that I've not played the beta, nor the early release, nor have I preordered this game, so my comments aren't directed specifically at this game - but there are some interesting topics in this thread.
In keeping with the debate about the integration of story into an MMO, and in this context Star Wars particularly, I've often wondered why the overarching story in most MMOs is meted out in small, non-chronological doses via sporadic questlines (e.g. The Lament of the Highborne questline), flavor text, or random geographical curiosities, instead of a straightforward, prologue to conclusion, narrative arc. I think the reason may be because the world feels finite when it's presented in that fashion. There's no compulsion to look to outside sources (books, websites, etc. which are secondary, but create a further sense of immersion) to figure out what the "world" of the MMO is about. I loved that the player is responsible for doing research into figuring out what the world is and what their "relevance" and "goals" are within it, from a character standpoint.
Because I haven't played TOR, I'm not positive that the story is being presented in a completely chronological fashion, but I imagine when the story ends, the player feels satisfied with that journey. Vanilla WoW didn't seem to have an overarching complete narrative, but the little bits and pieces throughout the leveling painted pieces of the story. It wasn't spoon-fed, which was both awesome and frustrating at the same time - because I wanted to know more. This sets the immersion cycle, for me. I would read more about the lore which would make me more excited to play the game.
Finally, I'll explain why I'm not so excited for TOR, and it has nothing to do with TOR at all. It has to do with Star Wars. I'm an old-schooler. I saw the first movie (meaning: Episode IV, before the beginning crawl had the "Episode IV" title) in the theaters in 1977. (Appeal to authority. Shhhh!) Loved it. Loved "Empire." Loved "Revenge . . . I mean, "Return of the Jedi."
But I absolutely abhored the prequels. And this deflated my interest in the universe, from a cannonical perspective, or otherwise. The story, for me, was deflated after the prequels. So, my lack of desire has nothing to do with the themepark vs. sandbox, WoW vs. TOR, fanboy vs. hater debates. Just from the perspective of story and how stories are accomplished within MMOs.
The best story-delivery system in the world, by definition, is the written word.
Anyone who relies too much on story as the prime attraction of their product in any other medium is playing with fire. It is true with films and it is true with video games which have interactivity as their prime appeal - and the concept of story is directly opposed to interactivity. Bioware put too much emphasis on story and too little on anything else, especially interactivity (read freedom, open-endedness whatever). No, this is not the game we're looking for. I sense a great disturbance in the force coming quite soon...
Or let me put it this way. You can play a great board game, such as chess or go, your whole life and never grow tired of it. Why? Because of the self-generating-content mechanics great games have. Every good chess game is a whole new story in itself. You cannot say the same for a book or a movie. You can't read the same book every day of your life while true gamers play their games of choice exactly like that.
And that is why relying on stories in games is a dreadfully shortsighted viewpoint. It might work for one-off console or single player games but it is deadly poison for games that rely on longevity (aka retention) for their success. I think Bioware made a terrible miscalculation with their approach to mmo design.
Why is this stated as fact when it's not?
The premise is not even true and at best is an opinion.../facepalm.
Three of us played the open bata. I dropped out from playing SWTOR because of the Voice acting. I could not take Bioware playing the game for me any longer.
Both friends were playing the pre-release on Friday and admit that they are already hitting the space bar and are getting annoyed with the Voice acting. Both are StarWars fans and trying there hardest to like the game. But you could tell that something is wrong. I'm sure you know the look on someones face when they are hiding disappointment.....I would probably be with them if I were a hard core StarWars fan, but I'm not.
What do you think, honestly ?
Everybody playing will be hitting the space bar skipping cut-scenes 2-3 months from now...Its not a prediction its a fact. TOR is nothing new once the perty cut-scenes are taken out of the equation :-/ Anyone with a head on their shoulders will wait until TOR offers a trial or goes f2p before paying the full box price for the same old...same old.
Ummm pretty sure that isn't a fact. Like at all. No really... it isn't even close to a fact. And in 2-3 months I'm going to make sure I don't hit my spacebar just to disprove your fact.
Don't you just LOVE the people who basically say "if you disagree with me you must be stupid". Great intellectual arguement there skippy.
Three of us played the open bata. I dropped out from playing SWTOR because of the Voice acting. I could not take Bioware playing the game for me any longer.
Both friends were playing the pre-release on Friday and admit that they are already hitting the space bar and are getting annoyed with the Voice acting. Both are StarWars fans and trying there hardest to like the game. But you could tell that something is wrong. I'm sure you know the look on someones face when they are hiding disappointment.....I would probably be with them if I were a hard core StarWars fan, but I'm not.
What do you think, honestly ?
I think I'm hearing this kind of thing a lot. That's what I think.
Specifically story is not role-playing, nor is it the mechanical aspect of placing points into attributes. Role-Playing encompasses the acts and decisions that the player takes in order to make their character their own –the constructing their characters into a unique manifestation of their will. Role-playing a character in an RPG is no different from the processes we all went through as children playing with action figures. We created personas and personalities, histories and previous adventures which defined those characters’ natures. We invented adventures on the fly for them to participate in, with specific outcomes.
The linear story driven RPG is not a result of role-playing, it is a shallow and base distortion of what role-playing really is. By limiting participants to a strict and specific story, developers are not catering to role-playing; they are in fact limiting it.
For me, it's not the matter of watching the Voice-Overs or hitting the space bar. Sure, you could hit the space bar and try pretend that it's an mmo. BUT YOU CAN'T, the game is not designed to hit the space bar. If you find you have to ignore the Voice-Overs you should simply un-install the game and toss it in the garbage because your only playing half the game by it's design.
For me, An mmo is the player has FULL CONTROL, OPTIONS, DO AS YOU LIKE !
In the game industry you have shooters, hack and slash, rpg's, strategy and mmo's..... SWTOR is not an mmo. I'm not sure what it is. Hay maybe it's something new, nothing wrong with that !....Maybe they should give it a new name for it's style, like Online Voice Gaming or what ever.....But it's not an mmo.
Lets just hope other mmo developers don't follow it's example, because if it's not StarWars it would surly fail !!!!
I'm not playing swtor. Im waiting for things to settle down a bit.
In my opinion, Bioware tried a diferent concept for their MMO. They want you to relax and enjoy the ride, they want you to play slowly, to watch the voice acting scenes as if you were watching a a film, in my opinion people wanting to rush to end game will not like swtor. I dont know if they made the right choice or not. I liked it when I tried it in a beta weekend but I can understand how a lot of mmo players don't like it even if I I do.
When I played mass effect 1 and 2 one of the stuff I did like more was the voice acting scenes and how I did select the dialog choices in my opinion they wanted to replicate "mass effect feeling" but in an mmo. Did they hit the spot? Well I'm sure the game is going to be a success (depending on how we define success of course), I don't know if they will sell and maintain as much players as they want but the game is going to make a bunch of money for sure.
This is the only MMO where Ive ever cared about doing the quests. I have tried to read quests in MMOs past, but it just got to tedious to do so, so I fell into the pattern of accept quest, go to quest marker and kill stuff, if i outleveled an area, i'd just move on as soon as I could, forgetting about the rest of the quests.
In TOR, i actually want to hear about the quests, actually do ALL the quests on a planet, even though I'm vastly over leveled for the planet. Why? because its fun for me. Heck I was 26 before I left the 16-20 planet.
I would like to listen to it if it was interesting like how well written Portal 2 was. However most of it is rather cheesy, cliche and really boring that you just skip through it all.
For me, it's not the matter of watching the Voice-Overs or hitting the space bar. Sure, you could hit the space bar and try pretend that it's an mmo. BUT YOU CAN'T, the game is not designed to hit the space bar. If you find you have to ignore the Voice-Overs you should simply un-install the game and toss it in the garbage because your only playing half the game by it's design.
For me, An mmo is the player has FULL CONTROL, OPTIONS, DO AS YOU LIKE !
In the game industry you have shooters, hack and slash, rpg's, strategy and mmo's..... SWTOR is not an mmo. I'm not sure what it is. Hay maybe it's something new, nothing wrong with that !....Maybe they should give it a new name for it's style, like Online Voice Gaming or what ever.....But it's not an mmo.
Lets just hope other mmo developers don't follow it's example, because if it's not StarWars it would surly fail !!!!
I tend to agree with you (and Royalkin as well). The game is going to do so well because it's Star Wars, and because it has two big names backing it, though personally I decided NOT to buy this game in the future because of EA's support of the SOPA act. To me, SWTOR never looked very interesting, it doesn't do enough to set it apart from games I've been playing for years, and full VO's have no impact whatsoever on gameplay to me - ie: the fluidity of the game itself, not the presentation and smoke and mirrors telling you you're having fun... but knowing that EA supports SOPA, I'm crossing this and any other EA games off my list. I would do the same if ArenaNet decided to ally themselves with these dirtbag bill pushers, but I know that won't happen because ANet has integrity, which at the end of the day, is becoming just as important as game quality now that I'm an adult.
Usually these kinds of game company politics aren't a big deal for me. A friend of mine thinks that EA will be using their new Steam-like Origin program to spy on users and read their files. I don't buy into that conspiracy, but SOPA is an entirely different matter. It's a frightening bill and I can't support any company who wants it to go through. EA's past was dubious enough. Frankly, if the very least of my worries about a game was getting bored with the dialog, I might still play it depending on the price, but EA's greed is part of a problem that would end our free speech rights and they can go straight to hell. I wonder if Blizzard supports SOPA too.
Comments
The campaign was plotted out by the DM, the players acted within it reacting to the story as it unfolded. A good DM had these situations thought out and was prepared to steer them back on the story line. Most campaigns had an underlying theme.
Back in the AD&D or Traveller days, the 'story' was told by the DM, much like reading a book. We rolled die to 'hit' something, and the DM would tell us what happened.
Flash foward to 2012, and a lot of the 'story' is now told via graphics. We see the environment, the atmosphere, the mood, etc. We now 'play' to see what happens. There is much less 'story' that needs to be 'told', as we are experiencing it more fully.
Imo, that is the point that current gamers prefer. They want to play the story, rather than be told -- or in the criticism of TOR, be shown the story. I think this is what is refered to when people say 'the game plays for them'.
Your trying so hard to make a point your just looking silly
I dont consider insta que dungeon finders / "phasing" / gear tokens and dailies innovations. Tell me again exactly what innovation has occured since 2004?
^^ This!! I agree completely - the only innovations made in this genre since 2004 have made the MMO better and killed the RPG. Most of the games out there now shouldn't be given the right to be called MMORPGs, they should be refered to for what they are, MMOGs.
(DISCLAIMER - The use of the word YOU in the above post is not directed at any one person in particular, but towards those who fall into the category itself - there is no personal attack here, neither intentional nor implied.)
Ummmm what?
To list a few:
Dynamic Events
talent-tree-less progression
action combat with hitboxes instead of LOS hit-detection
world-interaction with consequences
cross-player combo-able abilities
3 dimensional combat
RVR persistent PVP
etc.
Ummm pretty sure that isn't a fact. Like at all. No really... it isn't even close to a fact. And in 2-3 months I'm going to make sure I don't hit my spacebar just to disprove your fact.
Let me start by saying that I've not played the beta, nor the early release, nor have I preordered this game, so my comments aren't directed specifically at this game - but there are some interesting topics in this thread.
In keeping with the debate about the integration of story into an MMO, and in this context Star Wars particularly, I've often wondered why the overarching story in most MMOs is meted out in small, non-chronological doses via sporadic questlines (e.g. The Lament of the Highborne questline), flavor text, or random geographical curiosities, instead of a straightforward, prologue to conclusion, narrative arc. I think the reason may be because the world feels finite when it's presented in that fashion. There's no compulsion to look to outside sources (books, websites, etc. which are secondary, but create a further sense of immersion) to figure out what the "world" of the MMO is about. I loved that the player is responsible for doing research into figuring out what the world is and what their "relevance" and "goals" are within it, from a character standpoint.
Because I haven't played TOR, I'm not positive that the story is being presented in a completely chronological fashion, but I imagine when the story ends, the player feels satisfied with that journey. Vanilla WoW didn't seem to have an overarching complete narrative, but the little bits and pieces throughout the leveling painted pieces of the story. It wasn't spoon-fed, which was both awesome and frustrating at the same time - because I wanted to know more. This sets the immersion cycle, for me. I would read more about the lore which would make me more excited to play the game.
Finally, I'll explain why I'm not so excited for TOR, and it has nothing to do with TOR at all. It has to do with Star Wars. I'm an old-schooler. I saw the first movie (meaning: Episode IV, before the beginning crawl had the "Episode IV" title) in the theaters in 1977. (Appeal to authority. Shhhh!) Loved it. Loved "Empire." Loved "Revenge . . . I mean, "Return of the Jedi."
But I absolutely abhored the prequels. And this deflated my interest in the universe, from a cannonical perspective, or otherwise. The story, for me, was deflated after the prequels. So, my lack of desire has nothing to do with the themepark vs. sandbox, WoW vs. TOR, fanboy vs. hater debates. Just from the perspective of story and how stories are accomplished within MMOs.
Hope you guys are digging the game.
Re: SWTOR
"Remember, remember - Kakk says 'December.'"
Why is this stated as fact when it's not?
The premise is not even true and at best is an opinion.../facepalm.
Don't you just LOVE the people who basically say "if you disagree with me you must be stupid". Great intellectual arguement there skippy.
I think I'm hearing this kind of thing a lot. That's what I think.
Specifically story is not role-playing, nor is it the mechanical aspect of placing points into attributes. Role-Playing encompasses the acts and decisions that the player takes in order to make their character their own –the constructing their characters into a unique manifestation of their will. Role-playing a character in an RPG is no different from the processes we all went through as children playing with action figures. We created personas and personalities, histories and previous adventures which defined those characters’ natures. We invented adventures on the fly for them to participate in, with specific outcomes.
The linear story driven RPG is not a result of role-playing, it is a shallow and base distortion of what role-playing really is. By limiting participants to a strict and specific story, developers are not catering to role-playing; they are in fact limiting it.
For me, it's not the matter of watching the Voice-Overs or hitting the space bar. Sure, you could hit the space bar and try pretend that it's an mmo. BUT YOU CAN'T, the game is not designed to hit the space bar. If you find you have to ignore the Voice-Overs you should simply un-install the game and toss it in the garbage because your only playing half the game by it's design.
For me, An mmo is the player has FULL CONTROL, OPTIONS, DO AS YOU LIKE !
In the game industry you have shooters, hack and slash, rpg's, strategy and mmo's..... SWTOR is not an mmo. I'm not sure what it is. Hay maybe it's something new, nothing wrong with that !....Maybe they should give it a new name for it's style, like Online Voice Gaming or what ever.....But it's not an mmo.
Lets just hope other mmo developers don't follow it's example, because if it's not StarWars it would surly fail !!!!
I'm not playing swtor. Im waiting for things to settle down a bit.
In my opinion, Bioware tried a diferent concept for their MMO. They want you to relax and enjoy the ride, they want you to play slowly, to watch the voice acting scenes as if you were watching a a film, in my opinion people wanting to rush to end game will not like swtor. I dont know if they made the right choice or not. I liked it when I tried it in a beta weekend but I can understand how a lot of mmo players don't like it even if I I do.
When I played mass effect 1 and 2 one of the stuff I did like more was the voice acting scenes and how I did select the dialog choices in my opinion they wanted to replicate "mass effect feeling" but in an mmo. Did they hit the spot? Well I'm sure the game is going to be a success (depending on how we define success of course), I don't know if they will sell and maintain as much players as they want but the game is going to make a bunch of money for sure.
This is the only MMO where Ive ever cared about doing the quests. I have tried to read quests in MMOs past, but it just got to tedious to do so, so I fell into the pattern of accept quest, go to quest marker and kill stuff, if i outleveled an area, i'd just move on as soon as I could, forgetting about the rest of the quests.
In TOR, i actually want to hear about the quests, actually do ALL the quests on a planet, even though I'm vastly over leveled for the planet. Why? because its fun for me. Heck I was 26 before I left the 16-20 planet.
I would like to listen to it if it was interesting like how well written Portal 2 was. However most of it is rather cheesy, cliche and really boring that you just skip through it all.
I tend to agree with you (and Royalkin as well). The game is going to do so well because it's Star Wars, and because it has two big names backing it, though personally I decided NOT to buy this game in the future because of EA's support of the SOPA act. To me, SWTOR never looked very interesting, it doesn't do enough to set it apart from games I've been playing for years, and full VO's have no impact whatsoever on gameplay to me - ie: the fluidity of the game itself, not the presentation and smoke and mirrors telling you you're having fun... but knowing that EA supports SOPA, I'm crossing this and any other EA games off my list. I would do the same if ArenaNet decided to ally themselves with these dirtbag bill pushers, but I know that won't happen because ANet has integrity, which at the end of the day, is becoming just as important as game quality now that I'm an adult.
Usually these kinds of game company politics aren't a big deal for me. A friend of mine thinks that EA will be using their new Steam-like Origin program to spy on users and read their files. I don't buy into that conspiracy, but SOPA is an entirely different matter. It's a frightening bill and I can't support any company who wants it to go through. EA's past was dubious enough. Frankly, if the very least of my worries about a game was getting bored with the dialog, I might still play it depending on the price, but EA's greed is part of a problem that would end our free speech rights and they can go straight to hell. I wonder if Blizzard supports SOPA too.
SWTOR is a mediocre MMORPG. Too much time wsa invested in the story telling. While this might be nice it is not the type of game you subscribe to.
Not enough was added along with the story telling to keep people interested. No exploration and the environment is pretty lacking.
Story telling aside what does this game offer that others don't? NADA
same grind same ol same ol it doesn't even do a standup job with the same ol.
What the hell is with this 'my mate played this and here is his review' trend? Tell your friend to come review it, at least he has played it.
It is like saying 'I watched a woman on the train reading a book the other day. It was so boring, I give it a 1 out of 10'.