Originally posted by PKJackCrow funny story i do want a system like that again but i dont demand it in every game. but i do demand it in at least one updated game.
Threads like this come up in the forums for every single game that has combat, and doesn't have a harsh death penalty. It's very predictable. If that's the kind of thing you want, go find a game that actually has it programmed in there, a game where it's part of the design philosophy. Do not spend your money on a game where it's obvious that isn't going to be the case. If you bought Star Wars, and expected a harsh death penalty, or any death penalty really, you only have yourself to blame.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I didnt need to delete my toon when i died i had friends to rez me, but i didnt need rezzed that much since i took the time to learn my toon so i didnt die much funny how that works.
That there is not GAME STOPPING death penalty? Not one bit. Taking a player out of commission for a set amount of time(the typical MMO DP) is the dumbest, most counter productive system there is.
Besides, there IS a death penalty in TOR. Once you get higher level, those repair bills hurt. Especially if you wipe several times on one boss.
I don't get it, how does this make it "for kids"? WHen I was a kid I actually had the time to spend losing stuff or xp and getting it back, I don't have that kind of time any longer, nor does my guild, we're all working adults with real responsibilities..
I'll try to explain this sloooowly. Most kids do not want a challenge. Nor do most of themepark MMO players. Notice I said "most of", so this means the majority.
The question was rehtorical....
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
For the record...there IS a death penalty in SWTOR. It scales, slowly at first, to your level. Penalty includes equipment usage increase upon death, increased respawn timer, and/or increased travel times back to point of death/quest location. To me, that is more then enough.
How exactly is not having to wait a long time between attempts at something making the game easier? It's not like an enemy retains the damage you inflicted on it when you die and come back. Getting another shot at an enemy that killed you quickly doesn't make that fight any easier. You can't zerg it by yourself. I get the argument that a game where you lose something when you die makes you more cautious. But let's think about that. That means I will never ever EVER take on something that I'm not sure I can beat. I will never go into a fight without full hp. I will never get that invincible feeling of tearing through one pack after another. Every single area will take longer to get through. And this would only work if mobs were less clustered together. Otherwise, every time a patrol wandered by in mid battle, I would almost have to run away, instead of taking a chance and fighting it out. The risk would substantially outweigh the reward.
Playing like a coward is not particularly fun and I have no desire to do so.
You would only play like a coward, if you actually are one. Those who are not cowards, would not play as such even in games with higher death penalties. In the case with SWTOR, we cannot seperate the cowards from the rest due to "friendly" mechanics. You ought to accept your inner nature, but SWTOR doesn't allow you to do that.
My first MMORPG was Everquest 1. The death penalty in EQ was very harsh. Corpse runs, lost equipment, massive xp hit. Then WoW turned up and toned it down a lot, simple short corpse runs, slight money hit. I personally prefered EQs style since it made the game incredibly tense, with real strategy required. I can see why some people thought it was too hard however, and WoW was certainly more accessible because of this.
However, there is no death penalty at all in SWTOR (waiting 10 seconds isn't a punishment). This makes the game so easy, I may aswell just be clicking for 50 hours or so. I only die when I forget to heal after 50 or so enemies, and then I just get to respawn on the spot, stealthed, no xp hit, no stat damage, nothing. I play games for the challenge, but I find very little challenge in SWTOR, which is a shame because it has lots of great features and ideas.
I personally feel that devs making games easier to appeal to more people is ruining the games, at least for me.
Am I alone in this?
I can't speak specifically to the difficulty of SWTOR because i haven't played beyond level 20 yet, but since this is the same complaint being put forward about all modern MMOs, i think it's safe to generalize. Also, please note that I'm talking strictly about PvE.
The games are not easier, difficulty has simply moved locations. In my opinion today's MMOs games are actually much more difficult.
Nothing in the MMOs I played 10 years ago comes anywhere near in difficulty to some of the scripted dungeon encounters of today. But yeah, today's it's faster and simpler to level to cap in a game. Does that make the game easier? Only if you quit once you're done, if you actually seek challenge, you will find a lot more of it in today's MMOs than you would have back in the day.
How does TOR compare in difficulty? I don't know. Once I kill the hardest encounters in the game, I'll let you know. Soloing trash mobs without dying is easy, but that's not where the game's challenge lies, so it's pointless to use it as an example.
From what I hear, most players aren't even doing the flashpoints at their proper level because they're pretty hard. I can't confirm this, but it's what I've read.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall Currently Playing: ESO
To people who have pointed out that end game is harsher, I don't feel like I should need to get to the end game before I feel any challenge.
I suppose my personal preference is that games should be games, not click through story books. I'm a huge fan of story based games, don't get me wrong, but there is no sense of accomplishment if what is accomplished takes no effort. Lots of people cheat in games, and enjoy it, because for them winning is the fun part. For me it is not winning but the sense of accomplishment that I find enjoyable.
I'm not asking for EQ style death punishment, the genre is way too far past that now to go back, but even WoW level is reasonable. I bought SWTOR expecting at least that, not even less.
I'm not moaning or bitching about the game, I'm probably going to continue playing for the good features, I just wanted to discuss it as it is something I miss in games.
a big +1 here if the best that can happen is inbetween eq and wow that would be great too. But going through XX amount of leveling before "the real games starts" is silly to me.
To people who have pointed out that end game is harsher, I don't feel like I should need to get to the end game before I feel any challenge.
I suppose my personal preference is that games should be games, not click through story books. I'm a huge fan of story based games, don't get me wrong, but there is no sense of accomplishment is what is accomplished takes no effort. Lots of people cheat in games, and enjoy it, because for them winning is the fun part. For me it is not winning but the sense of accomplishment that I find enjoyable.
I'm not asking for EQ style death punishment, the genre is way too far past that now to go back, but even WoW level is reasonable. I bought SWTOR expecting at least that, not even less.
Death penalty has nothing to do with challenge. And it CERTAINLY has nothing to do with increased effort.
Challenge is: A boss mob that I just can't spam DPS at to make go down. One that may even kick my ass a number of times as I analyze what they are doing that's keeping me from defeating them.
If I have to wait 20 minutes for some "death sickness" BS to wear off, or have to spend 20 minutes running back to the mob, or some other time wasting nonsense that has little to do with me becoming a better player, then I'm just going to wait til' I'm loaded with purple gear and 4 levels higher to where strategy doesn't matter.
At which point, challenge is gone, I'll get bored, and unsub.
To people who have pointed out that end game is harsher, I don't feel like I should need to get to the end game before I feel any challenge.
I suppose my personal preference is that games should be games, not click through story books. I'm a huge fan of story based games, don't get me wrong, but there is no sense of accomplishment is what is accomplished takes no effort. Lots of people cheat in games, and enjoy it, because for them winning is the fun part. For me it is not winning but the sense of accomplishment that I find enjoyable.
I'm not asking for EQ style death punishment, the genre is way too far past that now to go back, but even WoW level is reasonable. I bought SWTOR expecting at least that, not even less.
Death penalty has nothing to do with challenge. And it CERTAINLY has nothing to do with increased effort.
Challenge is: A boss mob that I just can't spam DPS at to make go down. One that may even kick my ass a number of times as I analyze what they are doing that's keeping me from defeating them.
If I have to wait 20 minutes for some "death sickness" BS to wear off, or have to spend 20 minutes running back to the mob, or some other time wasting nonsense that has little to do with me becoming a better player, then I'm just going to wait til' I'm loaded with purple gear and 4 levels higher to where strategy doesn't matter.
At which point, challenge is gone, I'll get bored, and unsub.
A better player would adapt their knowledge-gathering methods to the situation. Using the same methods in suitations with high death penalty as in situations with lower death penalty, is just plain stupidity.
Umm...is this thread really titled "Lack of any death penalty"? ....Has the OP even played the game? The death penalty is exactly the same as SWG upon its closing, let alone the only deviation from Rift/WoW/Any MMO released in the last 5 years is that you get one 10 sec respawn (whcih SWG had) while still taking durability damage to your gear..
When you died in eq you didnt have sickness that was a wow thing you just have to get back to your body and if you didnt want to take a exp hit have a good friend to rez you (if on pvp you would roam around with other sometimes so having good firends meant that your stuff wasnt taken)
Higher death penalty only makes players take less chances. More or less death penalty, If you use the same dumb tactics in either, you are either losing gear or running back to your corpse repeatedly ...who does that? In either , you still have to adjust or keep dieing ...
Originally posted by InFaVilla Originally posted by Athcear How exactly is not having to wait a long time between attempts at something making the game easier? It's not like an enemy retains the damage you inflicted on it when you die and come back. Getting another shot at an enemy that killed you quickly doesn't make that fight any easier. You can't zerg it by yourself. I get the argument that a game where you lose something when you die makes you more cautious. But let's think about that. That means I will never ever EVER take on something that I'm not sure I can beat. I will never go into a fight without full hp. I will never get that invincible feeling of tearing through one pack after another. Every single area will take longer to get through. And this would only work if mobs were less clustered together. Otherwise, every time a patrol wandered by in mid battle, I would almost have to run away, instead of taking a chance and fighting it out. The risk would substantially outweigh the reward. Playing like a coward is not particularly fun and I have no desire to do so.
You would only play like a coward, if you actually are one. Those who are not cowards, would not play as such even in games with higher death penalties. In the case with SWTOR, we cannot seperate the cowards from the rest due to "friendly" mechanics. You ought to accept your inner nature, but SWTOR doesn't allow you to do that.
Well, it is a video game. It's not a personality test. People who are brave and heroic in a video game are just as likely to wet their pants as video game cowards if a bunch of guys with guns shows up at the local bank while they're trying to get $20 out of the ATM.
Also, it makes more sense financially to use reward rather than punishment to encourage game play. It's statistically more effective and it's less likely to turn your audience away.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
The challenge should be in not losing in the first place. If you feel the need to overlevel, the you need to improve at the game. The death punishment makes it more exciting for me.
I doubt a sky diver would claim that falling 5 metres onto a mattress is the same as jumping out of a plane because they both involving falling. One is considerably more adrenaline inducing than the other.
To MMOManiac, did you even read the post? I would hardly call this blind hatred.
if you forgot to bind close it could mean alot, it could me deleveling, it could mean running more than 20 minutes to get your corpse back and without friends or on pvp servers it meants you could have a hard time doing both.
How exactly is not having to wait a long time between attempts at something making the game easier? It's not like an enemy retains the damage you inflicted on it when you die and come back. Getting another shot at an enemy that killed you quickly doesn't make that fight any easier. You can't zerg it by yourself. I get the argument that a game where you lose something when you die makes you more cautious. But let's think about that. That means I will never ever EVER take on something that I'm not sure I can beat. I will never go into a fight without full hp. I will never get that invincible feeling of tearing through one pack after another. Every single area will take longer to get through. And this would only work if mobs were less clustered together. Otherwise, every time a patrol wandered by in mid battle, I would almost have to run away, instead of taking a chance and fighting it out. The risk would substantially outweigh the reward.
Playing like a coward is not particularly fun and I have no desire to do so.
You would only play like a coward, if you actually are one. Those who are not cowards, would not play as such even in games with higher death penalties. In the case with SWTOR, we cannot seperate the cowards from the rest due to "friendly" mechanics. You ought to accept your inner nature, but SWTOR doesn't allow you to do that.
Well, it is a video game. It's not a personality test. People who are brave and heroic in a video game are just as likely to wet their pants as video game cowards if a bunch of guys with guns shows up at the local bank while they're trying to get $20 out of the ATM.
Also, it makes more sense financially to use reward rather than punishment to encourage game play. It's statistically more effective and it's less likely to turn your audience away.
Show me a study that proves that it is always more effective to only use rewards rather than using a combination of both punishment and rewards.
My first MMORPG was Everquest 1. The death penalty in EQ was very harsh. Corpse runs, lost equipment, massive xp hit. Then WoW turned up and toned it down a lot, simple short corpse runs, slight money hit. I personally prefered EQs style since it made the game incredibly tense, with real strategy required. I can see why some people thought it was too hard however, and WoW was certainly more accessible because of this.
However, there is no death penalty at all in SWTOR (waiting 10 seconds isn't a punishment). This makes the game so easy, I may aswell just be clicking for 50 hours or so. I only die when I forget to heal after 50 or so enemies, and then I just get to respawn on the spot, stealthed, no xp hit, no stat damage, nothing. I play games for the challenge, but I find very little challenge in SWTOR, which is a shame because it has lots of great features and ideas.
I personally feel that devs making games easier to appeal to more people is ruining the games, at least for me.
Am I alone in this?
I agree, but I also think there is an argument to be made for both sides.....and largely comes down to what sort of audience the game is designed to appeal to.
There are alot more casual gamers in the MMO genere these days (thanks to WOW) and these folks (as most casual gamers are) have limited time to play, and play to get a quick escape from reality. They aren't interested in co-existing in a deep meaningful virtual world, and don't have the time to deal with having to re-coup XP, gear, or progress as a result of dieing. They want to be entertained for 30 or so minutes until they have to start supper, homework, or head to work.
However, for those folks looking for a more meaningful gaming experience....these MMORPGs provide a gaming opprotunity for something much deeper than they'd be able to get playing a quick match in Madden or Call of Duty. MMORPGs provide the opprotunity to INVEST and DEVELOP something that represents you in a living breathing virtual world. In these sort of environments....there is more to the game than hacking n' slashing, or the shiney gear on your back. It's about mastering the abilities of your avatar, and the relationships within the game that manifest itself in both cooperation & competition. In these worlds, things that effect the behavior of other players ARE important....and one of the tools that change behavior are death penalties.
I'll give two examples of two very different approaches to death penalties and let you make the conclusion...
Ultima Online's death penalty is Full Loot....meaning that if you die, your corpse stays where you died and you become a ghost. You have to get yourself resurected and back to your body to collect the gear & equipment you were carrying on you. While you're off looking for a healer, any passerby has the ability (although it will be a criminal act with consequences) to loot your body dry. You also run the risk of your body decaying if you don't get back to it in time. After 5 minutes, your corpse disapears....with all the loot contained within it. There is a REAL risk of losing your items upon death.
The only caviat is......items in UO are common place. It isn't like losing your best in slot shoulders it took you months of raiding to get in WOW. Items are easy to come by, making this full loot system have teeth, but not completely devistating to your character.
As a result, dieing in UO makes a player seriously evaluate what they did wrong in that scenario. While dieing 1 or 2 times doesn't set your character back TOO far......repeatedly dieing to the same thing WILL. So unless a player wants to spend a lot of time digging themeselves out of a deep hole, they have to critically evaluate what they did wrong, and learn from that lesson. In addition, it also makes players be fully aware of their surrounds and have their "head on a swivel" so to speak.
This has a net effect on the player population in that the general playerbase has an elevated awareness of how to play their character properly in many different situations. Seasoned vets are very adept at getting in & out of sticky situations. They are able to execute plans effectively, and utlimately raises the level of competition.
Thats what a FIRM Death Penalty does for a playerbase.
To contrast that....I'll offer some anticdotal evidence from a game that has a much more laxed Death Penalty...
I've participated in many raids in WOW, and in many situations there was always someone (despite how much instruction) that stood in the "poop", was AFK, listenting to music instead of listening to instruction, or otherwise just did what they wanted that caused the raid to wipe. This was one of the main driving forces behind lowering the number of players in a raid from 40 to 25. I've heard raid leaders blow a gasket because of people who somehow managed to mess things up after very specific instructions or just displayed a gross level of lack of awareness.
I've participated in many Battle Grounds where I've seen players throw themselves at a wall of enemies with complete disregard....because the consequence was nothing more than a 15 second rez timer and a 20 second mounted run back to said wall of enemies. I've seen my entire team allow themselves to be Kill Farmed at a choke point when there was an unguarded road that could have been used to flank the opposition. And after repeated attempts and directing people to the unprotected path....people continued to march like lemmings to their demise.
I've seen players in Warsong Gultch just walk off the cliff, one by one, into a group of 5-7 waiting enemies over and over and over......with ZERO chance of killing a single one of them. These people can't claim ignorance because people on their team have tried to give instruction to be more effective to the team.....yet its met with complete silence and/or insult.
To me, the contrast between these two communites, and these two gaming environments is all the evidence I need to tell me that a WEAK death penalty does have REAL effects on the community at large, and as a result MY play experience in a gaming genere that is designed to work WITH or AGAINST challenges in the game.
Originally posted by Stormwave1 To people who have pointed out that end game is harsher, I don't feel like I should need to get to the end game before I feel any challenge. I suppose my personal preference is that games should be games, not click through story books. I'm a huge fan of story based games, don't get me wrong, but there is no sense of accomplishment if what is accomplished takes no effort. Lots of people cheat in games, and enjoy it, because for them winning is the fun part. For me it is not winning but the sense of accomplishment that I find enjoyable. I'm not asking for EQ style death punishment, the genre is way too far past that now to go back, but even WoW level is reasonable. I bought SWTOR expecting at least that, not even less.
I'm not moaning or bitching about the game, I'm probably going to continue playing for the good features, I just wanted to discuss it as it is something I miss in games.
There is plenty of challenge in the leveling game as well. Bioware has included a good bit of group content, with varying levels of challenge. Heroic 2, Heroic 2+ and Heroic 4 content is something you either require a group for (2 people, 2 to 4 people or 4 people), or a lot of additional leveling time to complete. In addition to the Heroic content, there are world bosses that require several people to get past. This content will challenge you, especially as a solo player.
** edit ** "The Game" is a story driven game. Regardless of what the end game contains, if you're not looking for story driven entertainment, then this probably isn't a game you should play. Challenge exists, but it's not really the point of playing. The point is the story, the challenge is just the +1.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
The challenge should be in not losing in the first place. If you feel the need to overlevel, the you need to improve at the game. The death punishment makes it more exciting for me.
I doubt a sky diver would claim that falling 5 metres onto a mattress is the same as jumping out of a plane because they both involving falling. One is considerably more adrenaline inducing than the other.
To MMOManiac, did you even read the post? I would hardly call this blind hatred.
Implying that he game has "Lack of any Death Penalty" is pretty silly. Your question is "did you even read the post". My question is, did you even play the game? Literally the ONLY diff with the TOR death penalty compared to WoW/Rift/DCUO/ ALL other MMOs released in the last 5 years, is the one time 10 sec respawn (if you die imediatly after, the respawn timer is as long as it would take to run back anyways). The instant respawn was also in SWG... There is also the standard durability loss to your gear, and for the person who claimed "ya but I heard money was easy to come by, so it doesnt count", wiping once in a lvl 50 hard mode with epics on costs me 45k at the moment, and I dont even have a full set yet..
So ya, trying to convince people that SWTOR has no death penalty is either blind hatred, or pure trolling.
You would only play like a coward, if you actually are one. Those who are not cowards, would not play as such even in games with higher death penalties. In the case with SWTOR, we cannot seperate the cowards from the rest due to "friendly" mechanics. You ought to accept your inner nature, but SWTOR doesn't allow you to do that.
In MMO's it's typically how the majority plays that dictates how most will play. Habits typically reflect on the game mechanics rather than a person's "real" persona.
Many people play like "cowards" in harsh systems. Has nothing to do with being a coward, it's simply what the system(s) call for. Losing means more than being beaten, it often results in the loss of substantial time. No one that's "normal" wants to lose that.
The area hit the hardest in this form in such games is PVP, it becomes a game of zergs and ganks, no one fights a fair fight.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Comments
Threads like this come up in the forums for every single game that has combat, and doesn't have a harsh death penalty. It's very predictable. If that's the kind of thing you want, go find a game that actually has it programmed in there, a game where it's part of the design philosophy. Do not spend your money on a game where it's obvious that isn't going to be the case. If you bought Star Wars, and expected a harsh death penalty, or any death penalty really, you only have yourself to blame.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I didnt need to delete my toon when i died i had friends to rez me, but i didnt need rezzed that much since i took the time to learn my toon so i didnt die much funny how that works.
I didnt buy stwor so thats easy enough.
That there is not GAME STOPPING death penalty? Not one bit. Taking a player out of commission for a set amount of time(the typical MMO DP) is the dumbest, most counter productive system there is.
Besides, there IS a death penalty in TOR. Once you get higher level, those repair bills hurt. Especially if you wipe several times on one boss.
The question was rehtorical....
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Let's party like it is 1863!
You would only play like a coward, if you actually are one. Those who are not cowards, would not play as such even in games with higher death penalties. In the case with SWTOR, we cannot seperate the cowards from the rest due to "friendly" mechanics. You ought to accept your inner nature, but SWTOR doesn't allow you to do that.
I can't speak specifically to the difficulty of SWTOR because i haven't played beyond level 20 yet, but since this is the same complaint being put forward about all modern MMOs, i think it's safe to generalize. Also, please note that I'm talking strictly about PvE.
The games are not easier, difficulty has simply moved locations. In my opinion today's MMOs games are actually much more difficult.
Nothing in the MMOs I played 10 years ago comes anywhere near in difficulty to some of the scripted dungeon encounters of today. But yeah, today's it's faster and simpler to level to cap in a game. Does that make the game easier? Only if you quit once you're done, if you actually seek challenge, you will find a lot more of it in today's MMOs than you would have back in the day.
How does TOR compare in difficulty? I don't know. Once I kill the hardest encounters in the game, I'll let you know. Soloing trash mobs without dying is easy, but that's not where the game's challenge lies, so it's pointless to use it as an example.
From what I hear, most players aren't even doing the flashpoints at their proper level because they're pretty hard. I can't confirm this, but it's what I've read.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
To people who have pointed out that end game is harsher, I don't feel like I should need to get to the end game before I feel any challenge.
I suppose my personal preference is that games should be games, not click through story books. I'm a huge fan of story based games, don't get me wrong, but there is no sense of accomplishment if what is accomplished takes no effort. Lots of people cheat in games, and enjoy it, because for them winning is the fun part. For me it is not winning but the sense of accomplishment that I find enjoyable.
I'm not asking for EQ style death punishment, the genre is way too far past that now to go back, but even WoW level is reasonable. I bought SWTOR expecting at least that, not even less.
I'm not moaning or bitching about the game, I'm probably going to continue playing for the good features, I just wanted to discuss it as it is something I miss in games.
a big +1 here if the best that can happen is inbetween eq and wow that would be great too. But going through XX amount of leveling before "the real games starts" is silly to me.
Death penalty has nothing to do with challenge. And it CERTAINLY has nothing to do with increased effort.
Challenge is: A boss mob that I just can't spam DPS at to make go down. One that may even kick my ass a number of times as I analyze what they are doing that's keeping me from defeating them.
If I have to wait 20 minutes for some "death sickness" BS to wear off, or have to spend 20 minutes running back to the mob, or some other time wasting nonsense that has little to do with me becoming a better player, then I'm just going to wait til' I'm loaded with purple gear and 4 levels higher to where strategy doesn't matter.
At which point, challenge is gone, I'll get bored, and unsub.
A better player would adapt their knowledge-gathering methods to the situation. Using the same methods in suitations with high death penalty as in situations with lower death penalty, is just plain stupidity.
Umm...is this thread really titled "Lack of any death penalty"? ....Has the OP even played the game? The death penalty is exactly the same as SWG upon its closing, let alone the only deviation from Rift/WoW/Any MMO released in the last 5 years is that you get one 10 sec respawn (whcih SWG had) while still taking durability damage to your gear..
You can smell the blind hatred :-)
When you died in eq you didnt have sickness that was a wow thing you just have to get back to your body and if you didnt want to take a exp hit have a good friend to rez you (if on pvp you would roam around with other sometimes so having good firends meant that your stuff wasnt taken)
Higher death penalty only makes players take less chances. More or less death penalty, If you use the same dumb tactics in either, you are either losing gear or running back to your corpse repeatedly ...who does that? In either , you still have to adjust or keep dieing ...
Well, it is a video game. It's not a personality test. People who are brave and heroic in a video game are just as likely to wet their pants as video game cowards if a bunch of guys with guns shows up at the local bank while they're trying to get $20 out of the ATM.
Also, it makes more sense financially to use reward rather than punishment to encourage game play. It's statistically more effective and it's less likely to turn your audience away.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I disagree.
The challenge should be in not losing in the first place. If you feel the need to overlevel, the you need to improve at the game. The death punishment makes it more exciting for me.
I doubt a sky diver would claim that falling 5 metres onto a mattress is the same as jumping out of a plane because they both involving falling. One is considerably more adrenaline inducing than the other.
To MMOManiac, did you even read the post? I would hardly call this blind hatred.
if you forgot to bind close it could mean alot, it could me deleveling, it could mean running more than 20 minutes to get your corpse back and without friends or on pvp servers it meants you could have a hard time doing both.
Show me a study that proves that it is always more effective to only use rewards rather than using a combination of both punishment and rewards.
I agree, but I also think there is an argument to be made for both sides.....and largely comes down to what sort of audience the game is designed to appeal to.
There are alot more casual gamers in the MMO genere these days (thanks to WOW) and these folks (as most casual gamers are) have limited time to play, and play to get a quick escape from reality. They aren't interested in co-existing in a deep meaningful virtual world, and don't have the time to deal with having to re-coup XP, gear, or progress as a result of dieing. They want to be entertained for 30 or so minutes until they have to start supper, homework, or head to work.
However, for those folks looking for a more meaningful gaming experience....these MMORPGs provide a gaming opprotunity for something much deeper than they'd be able to get playing a quick match in Madden or Call of Duty. MMORPGs provide the opprotunity to INVEST and DEVELOP something that represents you in a living breathing virtual world. In these sort of environments....there is more to the game than hacking n' slashing, or the shiney gear on your back. It's about mastering the abilities of your avatar, and the relationships within the game that manifest itself in both cooperation & competition. In these worlds, things that effect the behavior of other players ARE important....and one of the tools that change behavior are death penalties.
I'll give two examples of two very different approaches to death penalties and let you make the conclusion...
Ultima Online's death penalty is Full Loot....meaning that if you die, your corpse stays where you died and you become a ghost. You have to get yourself resurected and back to your body to collect the gear & equipment you were carrying on you. While you're off looking for a healer, any passerby has the ability (although it will be a criminal act with consequences) to loot your body dry. You also run the risk of your body decaying if you don't get back to it in time. After 5 minutes, your corpse disapears....with all the loot contained within it. There is a REAL risk of losing your items upon death.
The only caviat is......items in UO are common place. It isn't like losing your best in slot shoulders it took you months of raiding to get in WOW. Items are easy to come by, making this full loot system have teeth, but not completely devistating to your character.
As a result, dieing in UO makes a player seriously evaluate what they did wrong in that scenario. While dieing 1 or 2 times doesn't set your character back TOO far......repeatedly dieing to the same thing WILL. So unless a player wants to spend a lot of time digging themeselves out of a deep hole, they have to critically evaluate what they did wrong, and learn from that lesson. In addition, it also makes players be fully aware of their surrounds and have their "head on a swivel" so to speak.
This has a net effect on the player population in that the general playerbase has an elevated awareness of how to play their character properly in many different situations. Seasoned vets are very adept at getting in & out of sticky situations. They are able to execute plans effectively, and utlimately raises the level of competition.
Thats what a FIRM Death Penalty does for a playerbase.
To contrast that....I'll offer some anticdotal evidence from a game that has a much more laxed Death Penalty...
I've participated in many raids in WOW, and in many situations there was always someone (despite how much instruction) that stood in the "poop", was AFK, listenting to music instead of listening to instruction, or otherwise just did what they wanted that caused the raid to wipe. This was one of the main driving forces behind lowering the number of players in a raid from 40 to 25. I've heard raid leaders blow a gasket because of people who somehow managed to mess things up after very specific instructions or just displayed a gross level of lack of awareness.
I've participated in many Battle Grounds where I've seen players throw themselves at a wall of enemies with complete disregard....because the consequence was nothing more than a 15 second rez timer and a 20 second mounted run back to said wall of enemies. I've seen my entire team allow themselves to be Kill Farmed at a choke point when there was an unguarded road that could have been used to flank the opposition. And after repeated attempts and directing people to the unprotected path....people continued to march like lemmings to their demise.
I've seen players in Warsong Gultch just walk off the cliff, one by one, into a group of 5-7 waiting enemies over and over and over......with ZERO chance of killing a single one of them. These people can't claim ignorance because people on their team have tried to give instruction to be more effective to the team.....yet its met with complete silence and/or insult.
To me, the contrast between these two communites, and these two gaming environments is all the evidence I need to tell me that a WEAK death penalty does have REAL effects on the community at large, and as a result MY play experience in a gaming genere that is designed to work WITH or AGAINST challenges in the game.
There is plenty of challenge in the leveling game as well. Bioware has included a good bit of group content, with varying levels of challenge. Heroic 2, Heroic 2+ and Heroic 4 content is something you either require a group for (2 people, 2 to 4 people or 4 people), or a lot of additional leveling time to complete. In addition to the Heroic content, there are world bosses that require several people to get past. This content will challenge you, especially as a solo player.
** edit **
"The Game" is a story driven game. Regardless of what the end game contains, if you're not looking for story driven entertainment, then this probably isn't a game you should play. Challenge exists, but it's not really the point of playing. The point is the story, the challenge is just the +1.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Implying that he game has "Lack of any Death Penalty" is pretty silly. Your question is "did you even read the post". My question is, did you even play the game? Literally the ONLY diff with the TOR death penalty compared to WoW/Rift/DCUO/ ALL other MMOs released in the last 5 years, is the one time 10 sec respawn (if you die imediatly after, the respawn timer is as long as it would take to run back anyways). The instant respawn was also in SWG... There is also the standard durability loss to your gear, and for the person who claimed "ya but I heard money was easy to come by, so it doesnt count", wiping once in a lvl 50 hard mode with epics on costs me 45k at the moment, and I dont even have a full set yet..
So ya, trying to convince people that SWTOR has no death penalty is either blind hatred, or pure trolling.
Good post RajCaj.
In MMO's it's typically how the majority plays that dictates how most will play. Habits typically reflect on the game mechanics rather than a person's "real" persona.
Many people play like "cowards" in harsh systems. Has nothing to do with being a coward, it's simply what the system(s) call for. Losing means more than being beaten, it often results in the loss of substantial time. No one that's "normal" wants to lose that.
The area hit the hardest in this form in such games is PVP, it becomes a game of zergs and ganks, no one fights a fair fight.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Yup. My level of excitement in world pvp is proportional to the amount if stuffs that I risk in it.
From yawning during rvr in WAR to actually almost passing out from the sheer endorphine rush of pvp in EVE.
My brand new bloggity blog.