Originally posted by InFaVilla Originally posted by lizardbones
Originally posted by InFaVilla
Originally posted by Athcear How exactly is not having to wait a long time between attempts at something making the game easier? It's not like an enemy retains the damage you inflicted on it when you die and come back. Getting another shot at an enemy that killed you quickly doesn't make that fight any easier. You can't zerg it by yourself. I get the argument that a game where you lose something when you die makes you more cautious. But let's think about that. That means I will never ever EVER take on something that I'm not sure I can beat. I will never go into a fight without full hp. I will never get that invincible feeling of tearing through one pack after another. Every single area will take longer to get through. And this would only work if mobs were less clustered together. Otherwise, every time a patrol wandered by in mid battle, I would almost have to run away, instead of taking a chance and fighting it out. The risk would substantially outweigh the reward. Playing like a coward is not particularly fun and I have no desire to do so.
You would only play like a coward, if you actually are one. Those who are not cowards, would not play as such even in games with higher death penalties. In the case with SWTOR, we cannot seperate the cowards from the rest due to "friendly" mechanics. You ought to accept your inner nature, but SWTOR doesn't allow you to do that.
Well, it is a video game. It's not a personality test. People who are brave and heroic in a video game are just as likely to wet their pants as video game cowards if a bunch of guys with guns shows up at the local bank while they're trying to get $20 out of the ATM.
Also, it makes more sense financially to use reward rather than punishment to encourage game play. It's statistically more effective and it's less likely to turn your audience away.
Show me a study that proves that it is always more effective to only use rewards rather than using a combination of both punishment and rewards.
The goal is to get more people to play and play more. If having a harsh death penalty encouraged players to play more, then you would see more harsh death penalties in more video games. I can accept the possibility that mmorpg designers are stupid. They don't cover a huge chunk of all the video game designers that exist. I don't find it likely that the majority of video game designers are stupid.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
The challenge should be in not losing in the first place. If you feel the need to overlevel, the you need to improve at the game. The death punishment makes it more exciting for me.
I doubt a sky diver would claim that falling 5 metres onto a mattress is the same as jumping out of a plane because they both involving falling. One is considerably more adrenaline inducing than the other.
To MMOManiac, did you even read the post? I would hardly call this blind hatred.
Implying that he game has "Lack of any Death Penalty" is pretty silly. Your question is "did you even read the post". My question is, did you even play the game? Literally the ONLY diff with the TOR death penalty compared to WoW/Rift/DCUO/ ALL other MMOs released in the last 5 years, is the one time 10 sec respawn (if you die imediatly after, the respawn timer is as long as it would take to run back anyways). The instant respawn was also in SWG... There is also the standard durability loss to your gear, and for the person who claimed "ya but I heard money was easy to come by, so it doesnt count", wiping once in a lvl 50 hard mode with epics on costs me 45k at the moment, and I dont even have a full set yet..
So ya, trying to convince people that SWTOR has no death penalty is either blind hatred, or pure trolling.
You're comparing the entire game to being at level 50. Did you feel hard done by before going for epic gear? No?
So my odl guild that played wow is playng swtor now and like the guild leader there always said for both games a 1 or 2 hours of farming will negate an ill effects, i can put people in 2 catergories then: does not have time or lazy.
The challenge should be in not losing in the first place. If you feel the need to overlevel, the you need to improve at the game. The death punishment makes it more exciting for me.
I doubt a sky diver would claim that falling 5 metres onto a mattress is the same as jumping out of a plane because they both involving falling. One is considerably more adrenaline inducing than the other.
To MMOManiac, did you even read the post? I would hardly call this blind hatred.
Implying that he game has "Lack of any Death Penalty" is pretty silly. Your question is "did you even read the post". My question is, did you even play the game? Literally the ONLY diff with the TOR death penalty compared to WoW/Rift/DCUO/ ALL other MMOs released in the last 5 years, is the one time 10 sec respawn (if you die imediatly after, the respawn timer is as long as it would take to run back anyways). The instant respawn was also in SWG... There is also the standard durability loss to your gear, and for the person who claimed "ya but I heard money was easy to come by, so it doesnt count", wiping once in a lvl 50 hard mode with epics on costs me 45k at the moment, and I dont even have a full set yet..
So ya, trying to convince people that SWTOR has no death penalty is either blind hatred, or pure trolling.
You're comparing the entire game to being at level 50. Did you feel hard done by before going for epic gear? No?
Hard done?....I havent felt "hard done" in any MMO death for the last 6 years. The title of this thread implies there is no death penalty, when in reality it is pretty much the same penalty that has been in every game for the past 6 years.
With that said, I have actually felt the "cost" pinch more so in this game, than any other themepark. At around level 20, your skill training cost increases exponentially, and I have actually had times while leveling where I had to hold off either repairing, or training a skill. I can honestly say I NEVER had that happen to me in WoW, Rift, or DCUO.
I am not sitting here and saying the game has the hardest death penalty, but the entire initial post implies that there is no penalty, and even compares it to being more laxed than wow, when in reality, that is completely not true.
This conversation obviously will not go anywhere..so ya....
Death penalty has nothing to do with challenge. And it CERTAINLY has nothing to do with increased effort.
Challenge is: A boss mob that I just can't spam DPS at to make go down. One that may even kick my ass a number of times as I analyze what they are doing that's keeping me from defeating them.
If I have to wait 20 minutes for some "death sickness" BS to wear off, or have to spend 20 minutes running back to the mob, or some other time wasting nonsense that has little to do with me becoming a better player, then I'm just going to wait til' I'm loaded with purple gear and 4 levels higher to where strategy doesn't matter.
At which point, challenge is gone, I'll get bored, and unsub.
A better player would adapt their knowledge-gathering methods to the situation. Using the same methods in suitations with high death penalty as in situations with lower death penalty, is just plain stupidity.
That is not relevent to a harsh/light death penalty. I want mobs that can still take me out should I not be able to suss out what makes them tick, in time. A developer is less inclined to make them that way if harsher death penalties are involved.
Overall i disagree becausei have seen a great deal of people use the same tactics over and over and over again because there was no essential cost to doing so while the people i have seen adjusting tactics ont he fly were people who were used to harsher systems
I disagree. The challenge should be in not losing in the first place. If you feel the need to overlevel, the you need to improve at the game. The death punishment makes it more exciting for me. I doubt a sky diver would claim that falling 5 metres onto a mattress is the same as jumping out of a plane because they both involving falling. One is considerably more adrenaline inducing than the other. To MMOManiac, did you even read the post? I would hardly call this blind hatred.
Implying that he game has "Lack of any Death Penalty" is pretty silly. Your question is "did you even read the post". My question is, did you even play the game? Literally the ONLY diff with the TOR death penalty compared to WoW/Rift/DCUO/ ALL other MMOs released in the last 5 years, is the one time 10 sec respawn (if you die imediatly after, the respawn timer is as long as it would take to run back anyways). The instant respawn was also in SWG... There is also the standard durability loss to your gear, and for the person who claimed "ya but I heard money was easy to come by, so it doesnt count", wiping once in a lvl 50 hard mode with epics on costs me 45k at the moment, and I dont even have a full set yet.. So ya, trying to convince people that SWTOR has no death penalty is either blind hatred, or pure trolling.
You're comparing the entire game to being at level 50. Did you feel hard done by before going for epic gear? No?
Hard done?....I havent felt "hard done" in any MMO death for the last 6 years. The title of this thread implies there is no death penalty, when in reality it is pretty much the same penalty that has been in every game for the past 6 years. With that said, I have actually felt the "cost" pinch more so in this game, than any other themepark. At around level 20, your skill training cost increases exponentially, and I have actually had times while leveling where I had to hold off either repairing, or training a skill. I can honestly say I NEVER had that happen to me in WoW, Rift, or DCUO. I am not sitting here and saying the game has the hardest death penalty, but the entire initial post implies that there is no penalty, and even compares it to being more laxed than wow, when in reality, that is completely not true. This conversation obviously will not go anywhere..so ya....
I'm level 20. I've not yet had to repair, and have 10x enough money to buy skills. At this point, there is no death penalty. Later in the game maybe, but that shouldn't be necessary.
The goal is to get more people to play and play more. If having a harsh death penalty encouraged players to play more, then you would see more harsh death penalties in more video games. I can accept the possibility that mmorpg designers are stupid. They don't cover a huge chunk of all the video game designers that exist. I don't find it likely that the majority of video game designers are stupid.
The goal of a game designer is ultimately to create an excellent game, even though far too many designers have forgotten that goal. A game designer should be happier with creating a less popular game that is rated 9.5/10.0 than a more popular one that is rated 8.0/10.0. One important case in which the severe death penalty was essential is the one with the single player game Demon Souls; it showed how much surplus to joy a strong death penalty could indirectly yield in the proper context.
I agree, Demon Souls had a great risk/reward system. That is one of the primary reasons it sold so well, because it is a game that really challenges the player without being unfair.
I'm level 20. I've not yet had to repair, and have 10x enough money to buy skills. At this point, there is no death penalty. Later in the game maybe, but that shouldn't be necessary.
Come back when you've tried to keep your crafting skills on par with your level, maintained your companion's equipment, and also bought your first speeder.
This is the first game in years in which I've actually had to be mindful of my money. So when I pay for repairs, it stings.
I'm level 20. I've not yet had to repair, and have 10x enough money to buy skills. At this point, there is no death penalty. Later in the game maybe, but that shouldn't be necessary.
Come back when you've tried to keep your crafting skills on par with your level, maintained your companion's equipment, and also bought your first speeder.
This is the first game in years in which I've actually had to be mindful of my money. So when I pay for repairs, it stings.
Actually it depends what you choose for a crew skill. If you want to make money, choose slicing. By level 25 I had 145,000 credits. Thats plenty for speeder and whatever else you may want.
Death penalty has nothing to do with challenge. And it CERTAINLY has nothing to do with increased effort.
Challenge is: A boss mob that I just can't spam DPS at to make go down. One that may even kick my ass a number of times as I analyze what they are doing that's keeping me from defeating them.
If I have to wait 20 minutes for some "death sickness" BS to wear off, or have to spend 20 minutes running back to the mob, or some other time wasting nonsense that has little to do with me becoming a better player, then I'm just going to wait til' I'm loaded with purple gear and 4 levels higher to where strategy doesn't matter.
At which point, challenge is gone, I'll get bored, and unsub.
A better player would adapt their knowledge-gathering methods to the situation. Using the same methods in suitations with high death penalty as in situations with lower death penalty, is just plain stupidity.
That is not relevent to a harsh/light death penalty. I want mobs that can still take me out should I not be able to suss out what makes them tick, in time. A developer is less inclined to make them that way if harsher death penalties are involved.
If they simultaneously dumb down the mobs and increase the death penalty, then yes, that is most likely a bad choice. However, I was under the impression of that discussion was regarding only changing the death penalty without changing other factors.
The challenge should be in not losing in the first place. If you feel the need to overlevel, the you need to improve at the game. The death punishment makes it more exciting for me.
I doubt a sky diver would claim that falling 5 metres onto a mattress is the same as jumping out of a plane because they both involving falling. One is considerably more adrenaline inducing than the other.
To MMOManiac, did you even read the post? I would hardly call this blind hatred.
Implying that he game has "Lack of any Death Penalty" is pretty silly. Your question is "did you even read the post". My question is, did you even play the game? Literally the ONLY diff with the TOR death penalty compared to WoW/Rift/DCUO/ ALL other MMOs released in the last 5 years, is the one time 10 sec respawn (if you die imediatly after, the respawn timer is as long as it would take to run back anyways). The instant respawn was also in SWG... There is also the standard durability loss to your gear, and for the person who claimed "ya but I heard money was easy to come by, so it doesnt count", wiping once in a lvl 50 hard mode with epics on costs me 45k at the moment, and I dont even have a full set yet..
So ya, trying to convince people that SWTOR has no death penalty is either blind hatred, or pure trolling.
You're comparing the entire game to being at level 50. Did you feel hard done by before going for epic gear? No?
Hard done?....I havent felt "hard done" in any MMO death for the last 6 years. The title of this thread implies there is no death penalty, when in reality it is pretty much the same penalty that has been in every game for the past 6 years.
With that said, I have actually felt the "cost" pinch more so in this game, than any other themepark. At around level 20, your skill training cost increases exponentially, and I have actually had times while leveling where I had to hold off either repairing, or training a skill. I can honestly say I NEVER had that happen to me in WoW, Rift, or DCUO.
I am not sitting here and saying the game has the hardest death penalty, but the entire initial post implies that there is no penalty, and even compares it to being more laxed than wow, when in reality, that is completely not true.
This conversation obviously will not go anywhere..so ya....
I'm level 20. I've not yet had to repair, and have 10x enough money to buy skills. At this point, there is no death penalty. Later in the game maybe, but that shouldn't be necessary.
At level 20, I had not had to repir much and had 10x enough money for my skills too. How is that diff form any other game released in the last 6 years?
I'm level 20. I've not yet had to repair, and have 10x enough money to buy skills. At this point, there is no death penalty. Later in the game maybe, but that shouldn't be necessary.
Come back when you've tried to keep your crafting skills on par with your level, maintained your companion's equipment, and also bought your first speeder.
This is the first game in years in which I've actually had to be mindful of my money. So when I pay for repairs, it stings.
100% this...I am by no means saying the death penalty is "harsh", what I am saying is that it is no diff than any other mmo released in the last 6-7 years, whcih the inital post implies against.
While it is by no means "harsh", it actually does affect you more often compared to the likes of WoW/Rift/(insert other themepark mmo).
Swtor's death penality is minimal, Rift had next to no death penalty. GW2, The Secret World..all new MMOS are doign away with harsher death penalities. But it is not some news because this hs been going on for a while now. Get on with the times OP. Everytime a new MMO is released this topic is rehashed... and nothing changes. Some people just don't get a clue even if it is staring them in the face.
You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty -- Mahatma Gandhi
Come back when you've tried to keep your crafting skills on par with your level, maintained your companion's equipment, and also bought your first speeder.
This is the first game in years in which I've actually had to be mindful of my money. So when I pay for repairs, it stings.
Actually it depends what you choose for a crew skill. If you want to make money, choose slicing. By level 25 I had 145,000 credits. Thats plenty for speeder and whatever else you may want.
That's true. But to choose slicing is to sacrifice a skill slot that helps you make gear; particularly worthwhile, non-green gear.
all the materials you need to make "crit" type gear... blues, purples, etc, comes from mission skills. Slicing doesn't get you materials for any crafting profession. And I've yet to see crit materials on the AH.
So essentially all that money you make is spent in the AH buying blues, purples from others... should someone be selling them, of course.
I experimented a bit in beta, using slicing to make money til' high level, then abandoning it and going for the appropriate mission skill for my crafting. In the end, it pretty much balanced out, since that meant spending lots of money running companion missions to get up to level.
most of us r playing games for nothing more than entertainment. after a long day at work its nice to come home and relax with a little mmo time. i dont know about everyone, but i know for me i dont want to sit down and unwind with harsh death penalties and an xp hit. i dont play mmo's to fill a void left by lack of a real life. im sure there r others like me and im sure there r others like u. unfortunately there r more like me which is y most games cater to this style. bottom line is i dont need a game thats incredibly tense with harsh penalties for death. i have real life for that.
The challenge should be in not losing in the first place. If you feel the need to overlevel, the you need to improve at the game. The death punishment makes it more exciting for me.
I doubt a sky diver would claim that falling 5 metres onto a mattress is the same as jumping out of a plane because they both involving falling. One is considerably more adrenaline inducing than the other.
To MMOManiac, did you even read the post? I would hardly call this blind hatred.
Implying that he game has "Lack of any Death Penalty" is pretty silly. Your question is "did you even read the post". My question is, did you even play the game? Literally the ONLY diff with the TOR death penalty compared to WoW/Rift/DCUO/ ALL other MMOs released in the last 5 years, is the one time 10 sec respawn (if you die imediatly after, the respawn timer is as long as it would take to run back anyways). The instant respawn was also in SWG... There is also the standard durability loss to your gear, and for the person who claimed "ya but I heard money was easy to come by, so it doesnt count", wiping once in a lvl 50 hard mode with epics on costs me 45k at the moment, and I dont even have a full set yet..
So ya, trying to convince people that SWTOR has no death penalty is either blind hatred, or pure trolling.
You're comparing the entire game to being at level 50. Did you feel hard done by before going for epic gear? No?
Hard done?....I havent felt "hard done" in any MMO death for the last 6 years. The title of this thread implies there is no death penalty, when in reality it is pretty much the same penalty that has been in every game for the past 6 years.
With that said, I have actually felt the "cost" pinch more so in this game, than any other themepark. At around level 20, your skill training cost increases exponentially, and I have actually had times while leveling where I had to hold off either repairing, or training a skill. I can honestly say I NEVER had that happen to me in WoW, Rift, or DCUO.
I am not sitting here and saying the game has the hardest death penalty, but the entire initial post implies that there is no penalty, and even compares it to being more laxed than wow, when in reality, that is completely not true.
This conversation obviously will not go anywhere..so ya....
I'm level 20. I've not yet had to repair, and have 10x enough money to buy skills. At this point, there is no death penalty. Later in the game maybe, but that shouldn't be necessary.
Costs start exploding around 25-30. I remember with my agent I had almost 100K credits but between speeder training, skills, repairs, etc. Got wiped out fast in a couple of levels.
Fact is mmomanic has a point, mmos haven't had hard death penalties for years. Games are marketed to the masses now and that means they have to be easy and fun otherwise they will limit their marketability. I don't agree with that but it is what it is.
most of us r playing games for nothing more than entertainment. after a long day at work its nice to come home and relax with a little mmo time. i dont know about everyone, but i know for me i dont want to sit down and unwind with harsh death penalties and an xp hit. i dont play mmo's to fill a void left by lack of a real life. im sure there r others like me and im sure there r others like u. unfortunately there r more like me which is y most games cater to this style. bottom line is i dont need a game thats incredibly tense with harsh penalties for death. i have real life for that.
Is that an attempt at a dig? Just because I enjoy tension and excitement does not mean I'm compensating for a "real life".
Perhaps I should have named the title "I've not noticed any death penalty at nearly half way through the game". At least in other games I had noticed at least some mechanics in place. I genuinely have not noticed any death punishment yet, regardless of whether it appears later in game or not.
Therefore I can confidently claim that where I am in the game, this is the weakest death penalty system yet. Games have been getting weaker, but at least I noticed death and tried to avoid it in WoW, and that wasn't particularly bad.
most of us r playing games for nothing more than entertainment. after a long day at work its nice to come home and relax with a little mmo time. i dont know about everyone, but i know for me i dont want to sit down and unwind with harsh death penalties and an xp hit. i dont play mmo's to fill a void left by lack of a real life. im sure there r others like me and im sure there r others like u. unfortunately there r more like me which is y most games cater to this style. bottom line is i dont need a game thats incredibly tense with harsh penalties for death. i have real life for that.
Is that an attempt at a dig? Just because I enjoy tension and excitement does not mean I'm compensating for a "real life".
Perhaps I should have named the title "I've not noticed any death penalty at nearly half way through the game". At least in other games I had noticed at least some mechanics in place. I genuinely have not noticed any death punishment yet, regardless of whether it appears later in game or not.
Therefore I can confidently claim that where I am in the game, this is the weakest death penalty system yet. Games have been getting weaker, but at least I noticed death and tried to avoid it in WoW, and that wasn't particularly bad.
Again, you go implying the death penalty in TOR is less than it is in WOW....you claim you are judging it "half way through the game"....then if you are comparing its DP to WoW "half way", your items dont even take a duribility loss in WoW UNTIL level 20.....Your entire argument makes 0 sense. This post should have been in the genral forums, not SWTOR, and should have been labled "lack of meaningful DPs in modern day MMOs"...implying SW has "no death penalty" compared to WoW and others is quite frankly a lie....
Originally posted by silverreign most of us r playing games for nothing more than entertainment. after a long day at work its nice to come home and relax with a little mmo time. i dont know about everyone, but i know for me i dont want to sit down and unwind with harsh death penalties and an xp hit. i dont play mmo's to fill a void left by lack of a real life. im sure there r others like me and im sure there r others like u. unfortunately there r more like me which is y most games cater to this style. bottom line is i dont need a game thats incredibly tense with harsh penalties for death. i have real life for that.
Is that an attempt at a dig? Just because I enjoy tension and excitement does not mean I'm compensating for a "real life". Perhaps I should have named the title "I've not noticed any death penalty at nearly half way through the game". At least in other games I had noticed at least some mechanics in place. I genuinely have not noticed any death punishment yet, regardless of whether it appears later in game or not. Therefore I can confidently claim that where I am in the game, this is the weakest death penalty system yet. Games have been getting weaker, but at least I noticed death and tried to avoid it in WoW, and that wasn't particularly bad.
Again, you go implying the death penalty in TOR is less than it is in WOW....you claim you are judging it "half way through the game"....then if you are comparing its DP to WoW "half way", your items dont even take a duribility loss in WoW UNTIL level 20.....Your entire argument makes 0 sense. This post should not have been in the genral forums, not SWTOR, and should have been labled "lack of meaningful DPs in modern day MMOs"...implying SW has "no death penalty" compared to WoW and others is quite frankly a lie....
SWTORs death penalty = WoW - corpse runs - dangerous respawning - (odds of dying / 2) x everyone can revive = clearly less.
most of us r playing games for nothing more than entertainment. after a long day at work its nice to come home and relax with a little mmo time. i dont know about everyone, but i know for me i dont want to sit down and unwind with harsh death penalties and an xp hit. i dont play mmo's to fill a void left by lack of a real life. im sure there r others like me and im sure there r others like u. unfortunately there r more like me which is y most games cater to this style. bottom line is i dont need a game thats incredibly tense with harsh penalties for death. i have real life for that.
Is that an attempt at a dig? Just because I enjoy tension and excitement does not mean I'm compensating for a "real life".
Perhaps I should have named the title "I've not noticed any death penalty at nearly half way through the game". At least in other games I had noticed at least some mechanics in place. I genuinely have not noticed any death punishment yet, regardless of whether it appears later in game or not.
Therefore I can confidently claim that where I am in the game, this is the weakest death penalty system yet. Games have been getting weaker, but at least I noticed death and tried to avoid it in WoW, and that wasn't particularly bad.
Again, you go implying the death penalty in TOR is less than it is in WOW....you claim you are judging it "half way through the game"....then if you are comparing its DP to WoW "half way", your items dont even take a duribility loss in WoW UNTIL level 20.....Your entire argument makes 0 sense. This post should not have been in the genral forums, not SWTOR, and should have been labled "lack of meaningful DPs in modern day MMOs"...implying SW has "no death penalty" compared to WoW and others is quite frankly a lie....
SWTORs death penalty = WoW - corpse runs - dangerous respawning = less.
In WoW you are Immune during your corpse run, and can respawn ANYWHERE in a large radius of your corps, avoiding ANY danger that is possibly present.
In SWTOR, you either spawn at your corpse (directly next to the thing that killed you) after a 10 sec ONCE every hour, or spawn back at a camp, and have to fight your way through all the same enemies again (the enemy respawn timer in SWTOR is MUCH faster than WoW).
While noether is drastic, which is harsher? ...I am sure you will try to spin it otherwise again though....
The goal is to get more people to play and play more. If having a harsh death penalty encouraged players to play more, then you would see more harsh death penalties in more video games. I can accept the possibility that mmorpg designers are stupid. They don't cover a huge chunk of all the video game designers that exist. I don't find it likely that the majority of video game designers are stupid.
The goal of a game designer is ultimately to create an excellent game, even though far too many designers have forgotten that goal. A game designer should be happier with creating a less popular game that is rated 9.5/10.0 than a more popular one that is rated 8.0/10.0. One important case in which the severe death penalty was essential is the one with the single player game Demon Souls; it showed how much surplus to joy a strong death penalty could indirectly yield in the proper context.
What is the benefit to the developer in making a game that fewer people will like? Why shouldn't they make a game that more people will like and that more people will pay for?
** edit ** Also, I don't disagree that developers want to create great games. It's just that 'great' is subjective and depends on what someone likes. You can create a great game without a death penalty. All other things being equal, more people will buy the game that does not have the harsh death penalty.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I've updated my equation, but I think respawning with a fraction of health in a large area of high radius hostile mobs is worse than reviving cloaked and thus untouchable so you can easily get into a safe place. I also think dying more than once an hour is incredibly unlikely until end game.
Plus anyone can revive in a group, so thats only an issue if you all die. Unlike WoW.
Comments
You would only play like a coward, if you actually are one. Those who are not cowards, would not play as such even in games with higher death penalties. In the case with SWTOR, we cannot seperate the cowards from the rest due to "friendly" mechanics. You ought to accept your inner nature, but SWTOR doesn't allow you to do that.
Well, it is a video game. It's not a personality test. People who are brave and heroic in a video game are just as likely to wet their pants as video game cowards if a bunch of guys with guns shows up at the local bank while they're trying to get $20 out of the ATM.
Also, it makes more sense financially to use reward rather than punishment to encourage game play. It's statistically more effective and it's less likely to turn your audience away.
Show me a study that proves that it is always more effective to only use rewards rather than using a combination of both punishment and rewards.
The goal is to get more people to play and play more. If having a harsh death penalty encouraged players to play more, then you would see more harsh death penalties in more video games. I can accept the possibility that mmorpg designers are stupid. They don't cover a huge chunk of all the video game designers that exist. I don't find it likely that the majority of video game designers are stupid.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
You're comparing the entire game to being at level 50. Did you feel hard done by before going for epic gear? No?
So my odl guild that played wow is playng swtor now and like the guild leader there always said for both games a 1 or 2 hours of farming will negate an ill effects, i can put people in 2 catergories then: does not have time or lazy.
Hard done?....I havent felt "hard done" in any MMO death for the last 6 years. The title of this thread implies there is no death penalty, when in reality it is pretty much the same penalty that has been in every game for the past 6 years.
With that said, I have actually felt the "cost" pinch more so in this game, than any other themepark. At around level 20, your skill training cost increases exponentially, and I have actually had times while leveling where I had to hold off either repairing, or training a skill. I can honestly say I NEVER had that happen to me in WoW, Rift, or DCUO.
I am not sitting here and saying the game has the hardest death penalty, but the entire initial post implies that there is no penalty, and even compares it to being more laxed than wow, when in reality, that is completely not true.
This conversation obviously will not go anywhere..so ya....
That is not relevent to a harsh/light death penalty. I want mobs that can still take me out should I not be able to suss out what makes them tick, in time. A developer is less inclined to make them that way if harsher death penalties are involved.
Overall i disagree becausei have seen a great deal of people use the same tactics over and over and over again because there was no essential cost to doing so while the people i have seen adjusting tactics ont he fly were people who were used to harsher systems
I'm level 20. I've not yet had to repair, and have 10x enough money to buy skills. At this point, there is no death penalty. Later in the game maybe, but that shouldn't be necessary.
The goal of a game designer is ultimately to create an excellent game, even though far too many designers have forgotten that goal. A game designer should be happier with creating a less popular game that is rated 9.5/10.0 than a more popular one that is rated 8.0/10.0. One important case in which the severe death penalty was essential is the one with the single player game Demon Souls; it showed how much surplus to joy a strong death penalty could indirectly yield in the proper context.
I agree, Demon Souls had a great risk/reward system. That is one of the primary reasons it sold so well, because it is a game that really challenges the player without being unfair.
Come back when you've tried to keep your crafting skills on par with your level, maintained your companion's equipment, and also bought your first speeder.
This is the first game in years in which I've actually had to be mindful of my money. So when I pay for repairs, it stings.
Actually it depends what you choose for a crew skill. If you want to make money, choose slicing. By level 25 I had 145,000 credits. Thats plenty for speeder and whatever else you may want.
If they simultaneously dumb down the mobs and increase the death penalty, then yes, that is most likely a bad choice. However, I was under the impression of that discussion was regarding only changing the death penalty without changing other factors.
At level 20, I had not had to repir much and had 10x enough money for my skills too. How is that diff form any other game released in the last 6 years?
My opinion on death penalties...
Dangerous corpse runs and exp debt/loss keeps you playing the game to recover.
Resurrection sickness forces you to do absolutely NOTHING, staring at your character's butt for a given period of time.
I'd prefer the prior.
100% this...I am by no means saying the death penalty is "harsh", what I am saying is that it is no diff than any other mmo released in the last 6-7 years, whcih the inital post implies against.
While it is by no means "harsh", it actually does affect you more often compared to the likes of WoW/Rift/(insert other themepark mmo).
Swtor's death penality is minimal, Rift had next to no death penalty. GW2, The Secret World..all new MMOS are doign away with harsher death penalities. But it is not some news because this hs been going on for a while now. Get on with the times OP. Everytime a new MMO is released this topic is rehashed... and nothing changes. Some people just don't get a clue even if it is staring them in the face.
You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty -- Mahatma Gandhi
That's true. But to choose slicing is to sacrifice a skill slot that helps you make gear; particularly worthwhile, non-green gear.
all the materials you need to make "crit" type gear... blues, purples, etc, comes from mission skills. Slicing doesn't get you materials for any crafting profession. And I've yet to see crit materials on the AH.
So essentially all that money you make is spent in the AH buying blues, purples from others... should someone be selling them, of course.
I experimented a bit in beta, using slicing to make money til' high level, then abandoning it and going for the appropriate mission skill for my crafting. In the end, it pretty much balanced out, since that meant spending lots of money running companion missions to get up to level.
most of us r playing games for nothing more than entertainment. after a long day at work its nice to come home and relax with a little mmo time. i dont know about everyone, but i know for me i dont want to sit down and unwind with harsh death penalties and an xp hit. i dont play mmo's to fill a void left by lack of a real life. im sure there r others like me and im sure there r others like u. unfortunately there r more like me which is y most games cater to this style. bottom line is i dont need a game thats incredibly tense with harsh penalties for death. i have real life for that.
Costs start exploding around 25-30. I remember with my agent I had almost 100K credits but between speeder training, skills, repairs, etc. Got wiped out fast in a couple of levels.
Fact is mmomanic has a point, mmos haven't had hard death penalties for years. Games are marketed to the masses now and that means they have to be easy and fun otherwise they will limit their marketability. I don't agree with that but it is what it is.
Is that an attempt at a dig? Just because I enjoy tension and excitement does not mean I'm compensating for a "real life".
Perhaps I should have named the title "I've not noticed any death penalty at nearly half way through the game". At least in other games I had noticed at least some mechanics in place. I genuinely have not noticed any death punishment yet, regardless of whether it appears later in game or not.
Therefore I can confidently claim that where I am in the game, this is the weakest death penalty system yet. Games have been getting weaker, but at least I noticed death and tried to avoid it in WoW, and that wasn't particularly bad.
Again, you go implying the death penalty in TOR is less than it is in WOW....you claim you are judging it "half way through the game"....then if you are comparing its DP to WoW "half way", your items dont even take a duribility loss in WoW UNTIL level 20.....Your entire argument makes 0 sense. This post should have been in the genral forums, not SWTOR, and should have been labled "lack of meaningful DPs in modern day MMOs"...implying SW has "no death penalty" compared to WoW and others is quite frankly a lie....
SWTORs death penalty = WoW - corpse runs - dangerous respawning - (odds of dying / 2) x everyone can revive = clearly less.
In WoW you are Immune during your corpse run, and can respawn ANYWHERE in a large radius of your corps, avoiding ANY danger that is possibly present.
In SWTOR, you either spawn at your corpse (directly next to the thing that killed you) after a 10 sec ONCE every hour, or spawn back at a camp, and have to fight your way through all the same enemies again (the enemy respawn timer in SWTOR is MUCH faster than WoW).
While noether is drastic, which is harsher? ...I am sure you will try to spin it otherwise again though....
What is the benefit to the developer in making a game that fewer people will like? Why shouldn't they make a game that more people will like and that more people will pay for?
** edit **
Also, I don't disagree that developers want to create great games. It's just that 'great' is subjective and depends on what someone likes. You can create a great game without a death penalty. All other things being equal, more people will buy the game that does not have the harsh death penalty.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I've updated my equation, but I think respawning with a fraction of health in a large area of high radius hostile mobs is worse than reviving cloaked and thus untouchable so you can easily get into a safe place. I also think dying more than once an hour is incredibly unlikely until end game.
Plus anyone can revive in a group, so thats only an issue if you all die. Unlike WoW.