Maybe the problem is they do survey people. Can you imagine if they did market research on this site, christ almighty the resultant game would be a clusterfuck of epic proportions.
Personally I am looking forward to the release of Misery Online: The Bickering
simple, designers are not really gamers for passion. they dont loev gaming they just love the possible " money " what comes out of it. companies are full people with useless certificates without any experience years back from gaming.
A publisher/dev that has the time and money also has investors. Investors do not care what you want. They want a profit. And if they can make a plan that will make a relatively safe return on box sales and a couple of months of subs, great. If the game has legs beyond that, wonderful, that's gravy. But to make a game that they think will have legs beyond that gets a risky and investors don't like risky. So they go for the safe, market-analysis driven bet. We get IP-based, heavily marketed crap.
I'll second that, very nice post by Leethe, has a poetic read to it ^^
/thumbsup
Thank you both.
There is NO miracle patch.
95% of what you see in beta won't change by launch.
Hope is not a stategy. ______________________________ "This kind of topic is like one of those little cartoon boxes held up by a stick on a string, with a piece of meat under it. In other words, bait."
Haven't we all been going on for ages about how much we wanted a story driven MMO?
No, a lot of us have been asking for a world in which we can make our own stories. We'd rather the majority of time, effort and huge amounts of cash be spent on content rather than movie cut scenes that ends up being spacebar-ed.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
Haven't we all been going on for ages about how much we wanted a story driven MMO?
No, a lot of us have been asking for a world in which we can make our own stories. We'd rather the majority of time, effort and huge amounts of cash be spent on content rather than movie cut scenes that ends up being spacebar-ed.
The movie cut scense and quests ARE content.
Did you mean to say systems?
Because in the first sentance you ask for a world to make your own story, but then you ask for spending money on content...
So which is it?
Developer made content or player made content?
Content based game play or systems based game play?
In before "is it too much to ask for both?" because the answer is probably "yes."
Haven't we all been going on for ages about how much we wanted a story driven MMO?
No, a lot of us have been asking for a world in which we can make our own stories. We'd rather the majority of time, effort and huge amounts of cash be spent on content rather than movie cut scenes that ends up being spacebar-ed.
The movie cut scense and quests ARE content.
Did you mean to say systems?
Because in the first sentance you ask for a world to make your own story, but then you ask for spending money on content...
So which is it?
Developer made content or player made content?
Content based game play or systems based game play?
In before "is it too much to ask for both?" because the answer is probably "yes."
How about content "other than movie cut scenes"?
If I want to see movie cut scenes everywhere, I'll go watch a movie. I expect DEEP and IMMERSIVE "systems" in a MMO, not one-time movie content that people tire of and spacebar through.
Does that help?
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
- patch x ruined the game: yeah, if you have a fanbase of a certain game, and you make CORE changes to that game half way through, chances are high it will turn out bad. Whether the developpers were to blaim, or the vocal minority on the forums, doesn't matter much.
- a good mmo is a mmo where everyone can do as he or she pleases: solo, group, raid, pvp: i tend to disagree. If a MMO caters to all those different play styles, chances are again very high that it will fail. Groups will not find enough members, raids will find too few raiders, etc. Why not have some balls to determine your audience early on, and stick to the plan. It might sell better and make more revenue (the main argument, as i read here, for doing it in the first place). I know i would have a lot more fun in a game that excells in a certain area that i choose to begin with.
- early games had more to do than fighting (grinding).....
- it was easier to be unique in early games....gear wise, skilll wise
- if making money is your main (only) goal, please try to hide that fact..it's such an emersion killer
To sum up my view:
* dare to make a game that caters to a very specific target audience. Dare to choose between pvp and pve, or solo/grouping
* give us more to do then fighting alone and make it an integrated part of your game design not some after thought
* stick to the core principals of your game through out it's life span
Currently playing browser games. Waiting for Albion Online, Citadel of Sorcery and Camelot Unchained. Played: almost all MMO pre 2007
To the OP - I think my first thought (and forgive my bluntness...) is how do you know what players want?
I agree that Star Trek Online did not engage me personally - I found the idea of it glorious but I never got any momentum playing it.
However I'm not sure if that's more an issue of how the game mechanics are structured and less an issue of concious choices by the game decision makers. Game mechanics are set quite early in the development process and a poor decision can ripple on down endlessly through the build of the game.
I will say however that gaming companies should require their upper management to level a character to cap in at least 2 mmo's before they're allowed to speak at meetings. That might fix things...
I think a large problem is that developers don't plan mmos from a player's perspective. It amazes me how players can tell you what is wrong with the game but some developers still don't have a clue.
- a good mmo is a mmo where everyone can do as he or she pleases: solo, group, raid, pvp: i tend to disagree. If a MMO caters to all those different play styles, chances are again very high that it will fail. Groups will not find enough members, raids will find too few raiders, etc. Why not have some balls to determine your audience early on, and stick to the plan. It might sell better and make more revenue (the main argument, as i read here, for doing it in the first place). I know i would have a lot more fun in a game that excells in a certain area that i choose to begin with.
Only with this i have problems.
If you focus too much you may find out that you are making a game that is not an MMO...
I think the problem is more of the sort that those things do not fit into the world, like instanced pvp, that offers gear only usable in instanced pvp, raids that give gear the has no real use in the outside world, soloing progression only for leveling...
Maybe the problem is they do survey people. Can you imagine if they did market research on this site, christ almighty the resultant game would be a clusterfuck of epic proportions.
Personally I am looking forward to the release of Misery Online: The Bickering
Even though I am one of the bickerers, this was great. I demand that mmorpg.com institute a rep system so I can pos both of you.
Maybe the problem is they do survey people. Can you imagine if they did market research on this site, christ almighty the resultant game would be a clusterfuck of epic proportions.
Personally I am looking forward to the release of Misery Online: The Bickering
Even though I am one of the bickerers, this was great. I demand that mmorpg.com institute a rep system so I can pos both of you.
Ya that made me laugh too and still does lol.
- Duke Suraknar - Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
Comments
^^^^^ /tearandtissue
Bravo
Personally I am looking forward to the release of Misery Online: The BickeringThe fact that this thread made Spotlight makes me sad.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
simple, designers are not really gamers for passion. they dont loev gaming they just love the possible " money " what comes out of it. companies are full people with useless certificates without any experience years back from gaming.
A publisher/dev that has the time and money also has investors. Investors do not care what you want. They want a profit. And if they can make a plan that will make a relatively safe return on box sales and a couple of months of subs, great. If the game has legs beyond that, wonderful, that's gravy. But to make a game that they think will have legs beyond that gets a risky and investors don't like risky. So they go for the safe, market-analysis driven bet. We get IP-based, heavily marketed crap.
I'll second that, very nice post by Leethe, has a poetic read to it ^^
/thumbsup
Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
Thank you both.
There is NO miracle patch.
95% of what you see in beta won't change by launch.
Hope is not a stategy.
______________________________
"This kind of topic is like one of those little cartoon boxes held up by a stick on a string, with a piece of meat under it. In other words, bait."
No, a lot of us have been asking for a world in which we can make our own stories. We'd rather the majority of time, effort and huge amounts of cash be spent on content rather than movie cut scenes that ends up being spacebar-ed.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
The movie cut scense and quests ARE content.
Did you mean to say systems?
Because in the first sentance you ask for a world to make your own story, but then you ask for spending money on content...
So which is it?
Developer made content or player made content?
Content based game play or systems based game play?
In before "is it too much to ask for both?" because the answer is probably "yes."
How about content "other than movie cut scenes"?
If I want to see movie cut scenes everywhere, I'll go watch a movie. I expect DEEP and IMMERSIVE "systems" in a MMO, not one-time movie content that people tire of and spacebar through.
Does that help?
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
Some bits and pieces:
- patch x ruined the game: yeah, if you have a fanbase of a certain game, and you make CORE changes to that game half way through, chances are high it will turn out bad. Whether the developpers were to blaim, or the vocal minority on the forums, doesn't matter much.
- a good mmo is a mmo where everyone can do as he or she pleases: solo, group, raid, pvp: i tend to disagree. If a MMO caters to all those different play styles, chances are again very high that it will fail. Groups will not find enough members, raids will find too few raiders, etc. Why not have some balls to determine your audience early on, and stick to the plan. It might sell better and make more revenue (the main argument, as i read here, for doing it in the first place). I know i would have a lot more fun in a game that excells in a certain area that i choose to begin with.
- early games had more to do than fighting (grinding).....
- it was easier to be unique in early games....gear wise, skilll wise
- if making money is your main (only) goal, please try to hide that fact..it's such an emersion killer
To sum up my view:
* dare to make a game that caters to a very specific target audience. Dare to choose between pvp and pve, or solo/grouping
* give us more to do then fighting alone and make it an integrated part of your game design not some after thought
* stick to the core principals of your game through out it's life span
Currently playing browser games. Waiting for Albion Online, Citadel of Sorcery and Camelot Unchained.
Played: almost all MMO pre 2007
To the OP - I think my first thought (and forgive my bluntness...) is how do you know what players want?
I agree that Star Trek Online did not engage me personally - I found the idea of it glorious but I never got any momentum playing it.
However I'm not sure if that's more an issue of how the game mechanics are structured and less an issue of concious choices by the game decision makers. Game mechanics are set quite early in the development process and a poor decision can ripple on down endlessly through the build of the game.
I will say however that gaming companies should require their upper management to level a character to cap in at least 2 mmo's before they're allowed to speak at meetings. That might fix things...
I think a large problem is that developers don't plan mmos from a player's perspective. It amazes me how players can tell you what is wrong with the game but some developers still don't have a clue.
Grim Dawn, the next great action rpg!
http://www.grimdawn.com/
Only with this i have problems.
If you focus too much you may find out that you are making a game that is not an MMO...
I think the problem is more of the sort that those things do not fit into the world, like instanced pvp, that offers gear only usable in instanced pvp, raids that give gear the has no real use in the outside world, soloing progression only for leveling...
Even though I am one of the bickerers, this was great. I demand that mmorpg.com institute a rep system so I can pos both of you.
Ya that made me laugh too
and still does lol.
Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard