I'll address the third faction bit a little further. There aren't really, in terms of Star Wars, many ways to go with a third faction that doesn't also involve Smugglers and Bounty Hunters, and these are both established in the lore for this particular game as throwing their hats in with the Republic (Smuggler) and Empire (Bounty Hunters). A theoretical third faction would have to include both of these plus two more and again there aren't really many archetypes to choose from that would fit in here. Slicer and Crime Lord were ones I suggested back in 2009, but Slicing has been relegated to a Crew Skill, and I'm not too sure Crime Lord fits in with what I know about the game now.
However, this isn't even really the main issue. When asked in the past, the real reason BioWare didn't go for a third faction was simple: cost. Those of us who love PvP, as passionate as we may be, really only represent a smaller fraction of the playerbase. In order to accomodate us, BioWare would have to create new class storylines and quest experiences for basically a whole new faction. The impetus to do so isn't really there, especially if the main reason is to facilitate PvP in an ideal but not required manner.
You can argue that this is one of the many compromises BioWare had to make in order to give us a story-centric MMO and whether that was ultimately worth it to you, but I really think that anyone hoping for a third faction in an expansion is going to be waiting a long time, or well, forever. Four entirely new classes, eight new main voice actors, four new starships, an entirely new 1-50 quest track with unique sidequests and Flashpoint content -- all to make PvP more ideal? All the existing PvP content and everything developed on the PvP front between now and then would also have to be reworked to take a third faction into account. There are cheaper and more creative ways to work within the current design and the economics involved would point to that as being the most likely option.
I hate having to be the realist here -- but it is what it is. I'd love for a third 'Underworld' faction as much as the next guy. It would make for a great and natural theme for an expansion. Star Wars: Empire at War: Forces of Corruption, anyone? I just don't see it happening. Prove me wrong, Bioware!
Yes an no.
Let me explain. The third faction must not mandatorily come with new classes nor V.O. Story.
It could be unlocked through the legacy system and be a feature like one of your topped (or maybe not) character is becoming rogue or something and being transferred into this faction. Then the fun would start with new objectives, new fluffy items, new companions (that barely speak) and so on.
WoW PvP blows ass, don't even mention it here ever again. Just because your first game was WoW doesn't mean it is good, especially at PvP. I want Open World PvP that isn't absolute garbage.
The only way to fix it is to put in a third faction. DAOC is the king of open world PvP, I don't know why developers do not follow this model, it is completely idiotic on every account.
The only way to salvage it at all would be to introduce a 3rd "rebel" faction or something. Let anyone from either side join it. When you join it you could easily change class names to match it based on whatever class you were.
This could be for PvP only, or a separate faction entirely. Right now, SWTOR PvP is probably unsalvageable, mainly due to the IP. It is pretty non-impressive on every account. But the only way to even have a hint of hope would be to have 3 factions, and allow people to change their characters to it. Hell, you could even allow migration from Imp-> Rebel and back, and Republic->Rebel and back.
Camping at base spawns with a bunch of bad players that don't know how to play isn't fun. Make the objectives more like outposts or keeps that you have to take. See WAR and DAOC ... All this instant kill BS is so dumb. If they are losing the battle, then let people go in and freaking destroy them. It is a PvP zone, who freaking cares if you die?
It is also pretty apparent that most people playing the game have zero PvP experience at all. There is no flanking, repositioning or surprise attacks that I have seen. Everyone literally just camps at the bases and kills eachother dancing around the instant kill line.
Either way, I doubt I will be playing after this month, as it is a pretty easy game, and the PvP is lame, there will not be much to do soon. Hopefully a development team will hire some people with half a brain and make a game that actually works. Right now, this is easily one of the worst Open World PvP games made that I have ever seen. Population imbalance will always be an issue, you have to be smart enough to design the game around it.
I am basically just writing SWTOR off as a PvE carebear game at this point. There are no real fights and no real PvP strategy and war. Lets not kid ourselves, at this point, this game is going no where for the REAL PvP crowd. It just appeases the retarded WoW kiddies that think 3v3 arena games are the best thing ever. Instanced PvP will never come close to the scale and fun Open World PvP can bring. The only game to come even close in the past 10 years has been WAR. They failed miserably at the 3 faction system as well (what the hell Mythic?), but at least it was dynamic and awesome most of the time.
Even if they had balanced factions the PVP in the game is still completely flawed.
Ilum is broken, the objectives are a joke (click 3 mechs?!?!), the pvp is unrewarding (if you can even find it), and the crate clicking incentive is terrible. This map rewards nothing more than travel in a zerg bigger than the other teams, and make sure you tag (damage) every player you gank.
PVP minigames is where they have focused what little attention they gave PVP, so even if the sides were more evenly balanced, the best outcome would be that you get more variation of the 3 minigames you are forced to grind for pvp gear, gear you are required to get to stay competitive. Yay?
TBH, If they wanted to make a decent PVP game they shouldn't have followed the same formula (except worse) that failed them under Warhammer. They should have learnt from their mistakes, and the mistakes of all the other recent MMO's where PVP died...and instead made a game where PVP isn't just some pointless minigame grind and where their are only two factions.
Lol. TOR PvP will never be at a good level because the game was never designed for PvP.
And to hear about the CC's in the game is even worse. As if the Mythic devs never learned anything from DAOC and WAR. How pathetic. And I dont even consider myself a "hater". BioWare is one of my favorite companies and its just sad to see such drivel come from them. Clearly, BioWare wanted to make a Single player game but all the suits wanted was $$$.
There exist a creature on forums who believes with a passion that not only is PvP viable but that if only a company listens to THEIR version of PvP, it will be the greatest thing ever and oh yeah, it might even sell.
When you are in business, you will often get new kids joining the company and come up with great new ideas that never make it to reality because they are never examined from all angles for viability.
If you want a certain type of gameplay, make a business case for it by examining first and foremost the pro's and con's. And the major con is PvP is that somehow, other paying people are your entertainment. That doesn't work, there are no sex clubs where everyone pays to be there. Hookers get paid to satisfy the needs of paying customers.
Few people find it fun to be beaten up in a fight, they sure as hell are not going to be paying a monthly fee to be your gank target. And unfortunally, in a game where there are classes, levels and gear with stats, that is always going to happen because there ALWAYS will be someone with maxed stats who finds his entertainment in beating up new players and shout "care bear" to anyone who dares to call him out on this.
That is why PvP in successfull mmo's (more then half a million paying subscribers) is an after thought. Sure, a large percentage takes part in it but it is smaller percentage then is taking part in PvE. In SWTOR, on my server at least, it is less then 10%, simple measured by guestimating the people taking part in PvP at peak hours vs the population on the various planets. And 10% is a very high questimate.
Why spend significant resources on this small if vocal group when history has shown there is no such thing as a successful PvP heavy MMO.
There are "real" pvp games out there and they are deader then a dead thing that has died. WAR, AoC and countless others just didn't survive because the PvP crowd while extremely loud is to small and to poor to be able to afford the games they want.
Player bases in SWTOR? Has the poster actually PLAYED the game? Most planets are very small and crowded, adding player bases would be a worse disaster then the ring of bad city planning that plagued SWG.
Really, MAKE a fucking business case for your PvP wet dream and then answer in it the question how it is going to be a plus for the PvE people that actually pay for the game?
SWTOR is a PvE game focussing on story telling with a dash of PvP as a diversion. {mod edit}
Why spend significant resources on this small if vocal group when history has shown there is no such thing as a successful PvP heavy MMO.
Yeah, besides... EVE, UO (pre-tram), DF, L, L2, SB, GW, RS, DAOC, and hell, even WOW, which has around 50% of players on PVP servers in NA, around 80% outside NA etc etc...
There are "real" pvp games out there and they are deader then a dead thing that has died. WAR, AoC and countless others just didn't survive because the PvP crowd while extremely loud is to small and to poor to be able to afford the games they want.
So you found 2 PVP orientated MMO's that failed and make a blanket statement like the above? But guess what, there's hundreds of PVE only MMO's that have released and have tanked even harder. By your logic, PVE MMO's are dead too?
WAR and AOC both attracted around 800,000 subs when they released. So clearly there is a market for a decent PVP MMO, too bad both these games sucked (for many reasons, including their PVP) so they lost their playerbases pretty quickly.
Then the dev's who made WAR, copied there failed PVP system, and implemented it in SWTOR. Isn't one of the definitions of insanity to do the same thing, but expect different results?
Proof is in pudding. Their failed PVP system from WAR, is failing in SWTOR as well. What a shock. But I guess that's simply because there's no such thing as a succesful PVP game, right? lol.
Player bases in SWTOR? Has the poster actually PLAYED the game? Most planets are very small and crowded, adding player bases would be a worse disaster then the ring of bad city planning that plagued SWG.
Small and crowded, really? Have you left the starter planets? The majority of your playtime on the later planets is traveling from A to B, even with a speeder.
Accept it and go play fucking WAR, you and that other PvP fan have an entire game to yourself.
Again we see your true motive, attitude and bias. Troll on.
SWTOR's PvP is Instanced / Battleground based. Thus, everyone who plays will learn the best strategies for each Warzone. It becomes a gigantic rinse/repeat epedemic.
Instanced PvP offers maximum redundancy. There is no hunt, there is no unpredictability, and there is no element of surprise. Combat is expected upon entering. Players are pre-buffing themselves and each other before combat. They know where the enemy will come from and where they will clash....the entire time.
SWTOR's PvP is Instanced / Battleground based. Thus, everyone who plays will learn the best strategies for each Warzone. It becomes a gigantic rinse/repeat epedemic.
Instanced PvP offers maximum redundancy. There is no hunt, there is no unpredictability, and there is element of surprise. Combat is expected upon entering. Players are pre-buffing themselves and each other before combat. They know where the enemy will come from and where they will clash....the entire time.
Allow legacy to give a buff/incentive for having a toon on both sides of the fence. – min/maxers would be all over this if the incentive/buff is of value.
Open up faction/server transfers
Create a third faction – not sure this is a true solution or it would just amplify the weakest faction.
Create PvP only factions – Huttball already demonstrates faction players fighting their own. Why not allow alignment to be a faction within a faction?
Rankings and titles based on performance – currently there is no ranking and titles are based on time
Open up cross faction mail/auction house. – once I decided I would create a cross faction toon, I was bit surprised to find out I had no way to move supplies to that toon. Legacy could fix this.
Reduce open world pvp – Unless open world pvp is highly incentivized, the effort is much more than the value. Blizzard “threw in the towel” when they went to “instanced” open world pvp. Is there any value to creating more open world pvp with peudo world objectives that are influenced by faction imbalance?
SWTOR's PvP is Instanced / Battleground based. Thus, everyone who plays will learn the best strategies for each Warzone. It becomes a gigantic rinse/repeat epedemic.
Instanced PvP offers maximum redundancy. There is no hunt, there is no unpredictability, and there is element of surprise. Combat is expected upon entering. Players are pre-buffing themselves and each other before combat. They know where the enemy will come from and where they will clash....the entire time.
It's devolving the PvP genre.
That sounds awesome! Where do I sign up?
/sarcasm
Aren't you describing ALL PvP in all AAA MMO's? That is why I personally don't PvP at all. BORING!! I enjoyed my time in Darkfall until the Clan politics killed it for me. MO is a hot mess and EVE is... EVE.
It takes a certain "type" of player to play PvP in the first place. That "type" really does not belong in most AAA games out today. FPS is where they should be. I REALLY wish TOR would not have put PvP in the game at all. It would have done little damage to their playerbase. I can only dream.
Bartoni's Law definition: As an Internet discussion grows volatile, the probability of a comparison involving Donald Trump approaches 1.
SWTOR's PvP is Instanced / Battleground based. Thus, everyone who plays will learn the best strategies for each Warzone. It becomes a gigantic rinse/repeat epedemic.
Instanced PvP offers maximum redundancy. There is no hunt, there is no unpredictability, and there is element of surprise. Combat is expected upon entering. Players are pre-buffing themselves and each other before combat. They know where the enemy will come from and where they will clash....the entire time.
It's devolving the PvP genre.
That sounds awesome! Where do I sign up?
/sarcasm
Aren't you describing ALL PvP in all AAA MMO's? That is why I personally don't PvP at all. BORING!! I enjoyed my time in Darkfall until the Clan politics killed it for me. MO is a hot mess and EVE is... EVE.
It takes a certain "type" of player to play PvP in the first place. That "type" really does not belong in most AAA games out today. FPS is where they should be. I REALLY wish TOR would not have put PvP in the game at all. It would have done little damage to their playerbase. I can only dream.
For me, PvP has gotten to the point where I've honestly thought about just shifting the engine in neutral and hanging on a PvE server.
There is nothing "Massively Multiplayer" about 5v5 or 8v8 mini-games. It's insulting.
As for BGs, they would not be as popular as they are had it not been for gear reward incentive. Remove gear rewards and the BG population would GREATLY decline.
No need to waste resources on pvp in this game, as it was doomed from the start. Everyone on pvp servers should get a refund, and an apollogy. Two factions, pvp gear based progression, and the pos Hero engine. Don't concern yourselves with the pvp'ers, they'll be playing better games quite soon.
I do feel swept up in a feel of realm versus realm, but there could be more trumpeting of what we are fighting for, that is always going to help. I am not sure I would consider this a proper RvR game, certainlty not like DAOC and I am not talking about 3 sides here.
The ideas about crew skills in pvp were interesting but would take ages to implement.
We do not want free server transfers, no MMO does and I really feel I should not have to even tell you the reasons why. The issues server transfers can cause are so well known. One word...Aion, and it was not exactly the first MMO for server transfers to cause issues.
I agree with most of what was written but I find the comments a little wacky. People are quick to forget what MMOs look like when they launch and are quick to compaire new MMOs to others that have been out for 2-3-6 years. What BW launched with is huge and given time I am sure they will get things balanced out.
I think you've missed a couple of obvious ways. Number one for me would be: I only like one of the three warzone maps. The other two are just boring as crap (whether my team is winning or losing, I just lose interest very quickly in them). So I would like to be able to queue for the single map I like. And of course, I'd like them to put in more so hopefully I could find a second or third.
Comments
Yes an no.
Let me explain. The third faction must not mandatorily come with new classes nor V.O. Story.
It could be unlocked through the legacy system and be a feature like one of your topped (or maybe not) character is becoming rogue or something and being transferred into this faction. Then the fun would start with new objectives, new fluffy items, new companions (that barely speak) and so on.
How to fix PvP in SWTOR?
Just copy what WoW did. I mean they pretty much did that for the rest of the game!
WoW PvP blows ass, don't even mention it here ever again. Just because your first game was WoW doesn't mean it is good, especially at PvP. I want Open World PvP that isn't absolute garbage.
The only way to fix it is to put in a third faction. DAOC is the king of open world PvP, I don't know why developers do not follow this model, it is completely idiotic on every account.
The only way to salvage it at all would be to introduce a 3rd "rebel" faction or something. Let anyone from either side join it. When you join it you could easily change class names to match it based on whatever class you were.
This could be for PvP only, or a separate faction entirely. Right now, SWTOR PvP is probably unsalvageable, mainly due to the IP. It is pretty non-impressive on every account. But the only way to even have a hint of hope would be to have 3 factions, and allow people to change their characters to it. Hell, you could even allow migration from Imp-> Rebel and back, and Republic->Rebel and back.
Camping at base spawns with a bunch of bad players that don't know how to play isn't fun. Make the objectives more like outposts or keeps that you have to take. See WAR and DAOC ... All this instant kill BS is so dumb. If they are losing the battle, then let people go in and freaking destroy them. It is a PvP zone, who freaking cares if you die?
It is also pretty apparent that most people playing the game have zero PvP experience at all. There is no flanking, repositioning or surprise attacks that I have seen. Everyone literally just camps at the bases and kills eachother dancing around the instant kill line.
Either way, I doubt I will be playing after this month, as it is a pretty easy game, and the PvP is lame, there will not be much to do soon. Hopefully a development team will hire some people with half a brain and make a game that actually works. Right now, this is easily one of the worst Open World PvP games made that I have ever seen. Population imbalance will always be an issue, you have to be smart enough to design the game around it.
I am basically just writing SWTOR off as a PvE carebear game at this point. There are no real fights and no real PvP strategy and war. Lets not kid ourselves, at this point, this game is going no where for the REAL PvP crowd. It just appeases the retarded WoW kiddies that think 3v3 arena games are the best thing ever. Instanced PvP will never come close to the scale and fun Open World PvP can bring. The only game to come even close in the past 10 years has been WAR. They failed miserably at the 3 faction system as well (what the hell Mythic?), but at least it was dynamic and awesome most of the time.
/rant off
Even if they had balanced factions the PVP in the game is still completely flawed.
Ilum is broken, the objectives are a joke (click 3 mechs?!?!), the pvp is unrewarding (if you can even find it), and the crate clicking incentive is terrible. This map rewards nothing more than travel in a zerg bigger than the other teams, and make sure you tag (damage) every player you gank.
PVP minigames is where they have focused what little attention they gave PVP, so even if the sides were more evenly balanced, the best outcome would be that you get more variation of the 3 minigames you are forced to grind for pvp gear, gear you are required to get to stay competitive. Yay?
TBH, If they wanted to make a decent PVP game they shouldn't have followed the same formula (except worse) that failed them under Warhammer. They should have learnt from their mistakes, and the mistakes of all the other recent MMO's where PVP died...and instead made a game where PVP isn't just some pointless minigame grind and where their are only two factions.
Maybe they can get some idea's from this: http://www.guildwarsinsider.com/2012/01/guild-wars-2-pvp-roundtable/
Lol. TOR PvP will never be at a good level because the game was never designed for PvP.
And to hear about the CC's in the game is even worse. As if the Mythic devs never learned anything from DAOC and WAR. How pathetic. And I dont even consider myself a "hater". BioWare is one of my favorite companies and its just sad to see such drivel come from them. Clearly, BioWare wanted to make a Single player game but all the suits wanted was $$$.
There exist a creature on forums who believes with a passion that not only is PvP viable but that if only a company listens to THEIR version of PvP, it will be the greatest thing ever and oh yeah, it might even sell.
When you are in business, you will often get new kids joining the company and come up with great new ideas that never make it to reality because they are never examined from all angles for viability.
If you want a certain type of gameplay, make a business case for it by examining first and foremost the pro's and con's. And the major con is PvP is that somehow, other paying people are your entertainment. That doesn't work, there are no sex clubs where everyone pays to be there. Hookers get paid to satisfy the needs of paying customers.
Few people find it fun to be beaten up in a fight, they sure as hell are not going to be paying a monthly fee to be your gank target. And unfortunally, in a game where there are classes, levels and gear with stats, that is always going to happen because there ALWAYS will be someone with maxed stats who finds his entertainment in beating up new players and shout "care bear" to anyone who dares to call him out on this.
That is why PvP in successfull mmo's (more then half a million paying subscribers) is an after thought. Sure, a large percentage takes part in it but it is smaller percentage then is taking part in PvE. In SWTOR, on my server at least, it is less then 10%, simple measured by guestimating the people taking part in PvP at peak hours vs the population on the various planets. And 10% is a very high questimate.
Why spend significant resources on this small if vocal group when history has shown there is no such thing as a successful PvP heavy MMO.
There are "real" pvp games out there and they are deader then a dead thing that has died. WAR, AoC and countless others just didn't survive because the PvP crowd while extremely loud is to small and to poor to be able to afford the games they want.
Player bases in SWTOR? Has the poster actually PLAYED the game? Most planets are very small and crowded, adding player bases would be a worse disaster then the ring of bad city planning that plagued SWG.
Really, MAKE a fucking business case for your PvP wet dream and then answer in it the question how it is going to be a plus for the PvE people that actually pay for the game?
SWTOR is a PvE game focussing on story telling with a dash of PvP as a diversion. {mod edit}
Add the separatist faction to the game as a playable group!
Error: 37. Signature not found. Please connect to my server for signature access.
IMHO i think the 3 faction Realm vs Realm like DAOC has would totally help PvP in SWTOR.
PvP will never be good in SWTOR.
SWTOR's PvP is Instanced / Battleground based. Thus, everyone who plays will learn the best strategies for each Warzone. It becomes a gigantic rinse/repeat epedemic.
Instanced PvP offers maximum redundancy. There is no hunt, there is no unpredictability, and there is no element of surprise. Combat is expected upon entering. Players are pre-buffing themselves and each other before combat. They know where the enemy will come from and where they will clash....the entire time.
It's devolving the PvP genre.
Amen.
you can't fix the pvp in swtor.
that would imply there was something there in the first place.
broken? meh. absent.
Solutions:
Allow legacy to give a buff/incentive for having a toon on both sides of the fence. – min/maxers would be all over this if the incentive/buff is of value.
Open up faction/server transfers
Create a third faction – not sure this is a true solution or it would just amplify the weakest faction.
Create PvP only factions – Huttball already demonstrates faction players fighting their own. Why not allow alignment to be a faction within a faction?
Rankings and titles based on performance – currently there is no ranking and titles are based on time
Open up cross faction mail/auction house. – once I decided I would create a cross faction toon, I was bit surprised to find out I had no way to move supplies to that toon. Legacy could fix this.
Reduce open world pvp – Unless open world pvp is highly incentivized, the effort is much more than the value. Blizzard “threw in the towel” when they went to “instanced” open world pvp. Is there any value to creating more open world pvp with peudo world objectives that are influenced by faction imbalance?
That sounds awesome! Where do I sign up?
/sarcasm
Aren't you describing ALL PvP in all AAA MMO's? That is why I personally don't PvP at all. BORING!! I enjoyed my time in Darkfall until the Clan politics killed it for me. MO is a hot mess and EVE is... EVE.
It takes a certain "type" of player to play PvP in the first place. That "type" really does not belong in most AAA games out today. FPS is where they should be. I REALLY wish TOR would not have put PvP in the game at all. It would have done little damage to their playerbase. I can only dream.
Bartoni's Law definition: As an Internet discussion grows volatile, the probability of a comparison involving Donald Trump approaches 1.
For me, PvP has gotten to the point where I've honestly thought about just shifting the engine in neutral and hanging on a PvE server.
There is nothing "Massively Multiplayer" about 5v5 or 8v8 mini-games. It's insulting.
As for BGs, they would not be as popular as they are had it not been for gear reward incentive. Remove gear rewards and the BG population would GREATLY decline.
author is a bf3 fanboy
Which FF Character Are You?
No need to waste resources on pvp in this game, as it was doomed from the start. Everyone on pvp servers should get a refund, and an apollogy. Two factions, pvp gear based progression, and the pos Hero engine. Don't concern yourselves with the pvp'ers, they'll be playing better games quite soon.
I do feel swept up in a feel of realm versus realm, but there could be more trumpeting of what we are fighting for, that is always going to help. I am not sure I would consider this a proper RvR game, certainlty not like DAOC and I am not talking about 3 sides here.
The ideas about crew skills in pvp were interesting but would take ages to implement.
We do not want free server transfers, no MMO does and I really feel I should not have to even tell you the reasons why. The issues server transfers can cause are so well known. One word...Aion, and it was not exactly the first MMO for server transfers to cause issues.
Create a new game Called Star Wars the Old Republic II with another developer and another publisher and put PVP in it, that might fix it.
This news article and thread is BioWare sponsored advertising.
BioWare is using social media to expose people (you) to SWTOR, so that with enough repeated exposure you will buy it.
SWTOR is not designed to be a PvP game. Nor is there evidence that it will be significantly changed into a PvP game.
So reader, get real - if you want PvP, buy a PvP-focused game.
How to improve PvP? don't improve it, it's fine as it is. L2P.
I agree with most of what was written but I find the comments a little wacky. People are quick to forget what MMOs look like when they launch and are quick to compaire new MMOs to others that have been out for 2-3-6 years. What BW launched with is huge and given time I am sure they will get things balanced out.
I think you've missed a couple of obvious ways. Number one for me would be: I only like one of the three warzone maps. The other two are just boring as crap (whether my team is winning or losing, I just lose interest very quickly in them). So I would like to be able to queue for the single map I like. And of course, I'd like them to put in more so hopefully I could find a second or third.
republic are outnumbered on all servers an incentive is learly the way to go like bonus valor.
the random reward system of swtor is the worst in any mmo and needs to totally go.no one i know likes it at all.
do you work for bioware? .... because you are just as clueless as the guys who made this pvp system in the first place.