I think the reason ToR is retaining its popularity is that it appeals to the the RPG audiance rather

kartool · January 2012

Originally posted by lizardbones

Originally posted by ZizouX

Originally posted by sanosukex

Originally posted by ZizouX

A lot of people say Rift is better than SWTOR. I liked rift but quit for my own reasons.... If that's the case, that Rift came with all of the things you expect in a AAA mmo, why isn't more successful than it is? It's making a profit but not retaining the subscriber base that is in line with the praise it's getting.

if you can't answer that.. well it's pretty simple... the IP, it's star wars end of story.. if Rift had a famous IP it would be immensly more popular than it is.

Agree to disagree. Best part of Rift for me were the Heroics and RAids... really well designed and fun. Worst part for me was Macro based combat that dumbed down the game.

Another part of the game I didn't care for was the identical Quest Hub based leveling. Pick up 10 quests, kill 10 rats, return to quest giver, go to another location, rinse repeat. I never read a single story in Rift, nor did I care to. I had no idea what the hell the game was about in terms of story other than us vs. them.

SWTOR, some people dont care about the voice acting or say they over the whole VO thing. Well i'm not one of those people. I love the story, I love the quests, I love companions, I love the dialogue, huttball, and the crafting.

To each his own.....

The difference between the two is that SWToR can improve the base game mechanics, and has some time to do so. Rift cannot add a story. They have lore, but no story. There's no reason to get invested in your character(s) or the world.

I'm not knocking Rift as a game. I played it an enjoyed it longer than any of the people I game with. There was just no reason to stick around any longer.

To me Rift felt like a 2006 Toyota Camry. It worked well, the mechanics were solid and did exactly what it should but it felt bland as hell to drive.

Terronte · January 2012

Server pop is a fuzzy idea. IIRC SWTOR has a cap of 1500 while other games have 3000.

So how do they calculate their "normal"?

I played on a "heavy" server with ~200 people on fleet on either side and 70-100 on each planet I visited. (following the level curve of course)

I played on a "Standard" server with >30 people on fleet on both side and about 30ish on the planets also.

I'm not saying it's retaining or losing players, I'm saying the wording is fuzzy.

TheLizardbones · January 2012

Originally posted by Terronte
Server pop is a fuzzy idea. IIRC SWTOR has a cap of 1500 while other games have 3000.
So how do they calculate their "normal"?
I played on a "heavy" server with ~200 people on fleet on either side and 70-100 on each planet I visited. (following the level curve of course)
I played on a "Standard" server with >30 people on fleet on both side and about 30ish on the planets also.
I'm not saying it's retaining or losing players, I'm saying the wording is fuzzy.

BioWare is the only entity that knows what those categories actually mean. The definitions could change daily. The only important information is going to be anecdotal, and it will answer the question, "Are there enough people here for me to have fun?"

Gibbonici · January 2012

Originally posted by ZizouX
I think people have become jaded with over exposure to WoW and wow-clones alike for the past 7 years.

I don't think it's the mmo, I think the community has changed.

A lot of people say Rift is better than SWTOR. I liked rift but quit for my own reasons.... If that's the case, that Rift came with all of the things you expect in a AAA mmo, why isn't more successful than it is? It's making a profit but not retaining the subscriber base that is in line with the praise it's getting.

It's not SWTOR that's a "problem" it's the genre and people become tired of MMOS in general. People want to recapture their favorite mmo experience and that's a cup of expectation that can never be filled.

I enjoy SWTOR for what it is....an extension of Kotor and Mass Effect, with pvp and mmo components. I play 2 hours a night, because of career and family and absolutely love it.

I totally agree.

sanosukex · January 2012

Originally posted by kartool

Originally posted by lizardbones

Originally posted by ZizouX

Originally posted by sanosukex

Originally posted by ZizouX

A lot of people say Rift is better than SWTOR. I liked rift but quit for my own reasons.... If that's the case, that Rift came with all of the things you expect in a AAA mmo, why isn't more successful than it is? It's making a profit but not retaining the subscriber base that is in line with the praise it's getting.

if you can't answer that.. well it's pretty simple... the IP, it's star wars end of story.. if Rift had a famous IP it would be immensly more popular than it is.

Agree to disagree. Best part of Rift for me were the Heroics and RAids... really well designed and fun. Worst part for me was Macro based combat that dumbed down the game.

Another part of the game I didn't care for was the identical Quest Hub based leveling. Pick up 10 quests, kill 10 rats, return to quest giver, go to another location, rinse repeat. I never read a single story in Rift, nor did I care to. I had no idea what the hell the game was about in terms of story other than us vs. them.

SWTOR, some people dont care about the voice acting or say they over the whole VO thing. Well i'm not one of those people. I love the story, I love the quests, I love companions, I love the dialogue, huttball, and the crafting.

To each his own.....

The difference between the two is that SWToR can improve the base game mechanics, and has some time to do so. Rift cannot add a story. They have lore, but no story. There's no reason to get invested in your character(s) or the world.

I'm not knocking Rift as a game. I played it an enjoyed it longer than any of the people I game with. There was just no reason to stick around any longer.

To me Rift felt like a 2006 Toyota Camry. It worked well, the mechanics were solid and did exactly what it should but it felt bland as hell to drive.

to me SWTOR feels like a pinto that Xzibit pimped out the outside and little bit of the interior but forgot to touch the guts of it

oobla · January 2012

Originally posted by ste2000

Originally posted by oobla

Quite frankly I had my doubts as to what would happen in month 2 . I was convinced there would be a large drop off this has thus far failed to materialise with plenty of full servers and no low ones at peak times . I think the reason for this is because it appeals to people who enjoy single player RPG games . ToR to me is a single player rpg game with mmo elements which is the reverse of most mmos where story takes a back seat . I think whats happened is that ToR has attracted people that dont normally play mmos . Maybe some are StarWars fans and others are fans of games like Dragon Age or Mass Effect and perhaps went into the game not expecting any different to what they have got . The trick Bioware may have pulled off is spotting a gap in the mmo market . Still you cant argue with success and the game although it maybe not what many of us wanted ( I felt this myself ) it is indeed maintaining its numbers well into month 2 . Of course to retain that long term will require updates to the story on a regular basis .

You seems pretty sure about your numbers, where do you get your information?

Erm are you refering to the numbers of servers that are full and not low population . I simply logged in and counted them . I guess you could say Bioware are tyring to hoodwink us by fixing them . Still people said that about WoW just makes you look like a conspiracy nutter .

Crunchy221 · January 2012

Well...

Its a standard issue themepark at its heart. Absolutley nothing diffrent about this game than any other themepark since 2004.

However. It does offer interesting cutscene stories. The lore isnt the typical medieval fantasy which has been beaten to death.

And it has star wars...which will have a following no matter how crappy and lame the product attached to it is.

My honest opinion, and this is from just finishing the storyline for one character....this game will have to worry about keeping players after people are done rolling a few alts for the other storylines. Some are drastically better than others, and once people are done with the "movie" aspect of the game, there better be some solid endgame hampsterwheels set up or people will move on.

That being said, the "i dont care about anything other than pvp" crowd should be moving along once the oppertunity to jump to another new standard issue themepark comes along, as is always and forever with this crowd, leaving their previous game full of venom and hate towards it for failing misrably, regardless of its succes...as is tradition.

The feeling i have with this themepark is diffrent fromt he rest, which usually involve a month getting to endgame, bypassing lots of content at the end because its not entertaining, then running pve instances and a few pvp for a month, then going back to sandboxes for a year. This game has a diffrent feel to it, i dont mind the setting and world im in since its not the same fantasy forest ive been in since i left anarchy online way back in the day. Im interested in a few otehr classes, they have diffrent content as far as storyline that are well enough in quality.

I will say, i do have little interest in endgame pve or pvp in this game, themepark pvp is boring to me, and the pve instances seem to lack...not sure what it is but in rift i really got into raiding (it was hard) but this game seems to have all its "good" put into those cutscene stories.

I should also point out the glaring fact that untill GW2 comes out, which is the next in the progression of themeparks gone wild, this game will not be tested in terms of loyalty. However it was nothing like rift where everyone was saying the whole time they were playing that game to tide them over for SWTOR.

As long as they build up a solid base of endgame before everyone rerolls a few alts, and possibly releases a new set of race/companions and a new class or story to progess through...this game will be just fine for a very long time So long as they dont appeal to the pvp crowd thats going to leave anyway and wreck pve balance things will be fine...but they are doing that now so not sure.

gainesvilleg · January 2012

Originally posted by Crunchy221
Well...

Its a standard issue themepark at its heart. Absolutley nothing diffrent about this game than any other themepark since 2004.

However. It does offer interesting cutscene stories. The lore isnt the typical medieval fantasy which has been beaten to death.

And it has star wars...which will have a following no matter how crappy and lame the product attached to it is.

My honest opinion, and this is from just finishing the storyline for one character....this game will have to worry about keeping players after people are done rolling a few alts for the other storylines. Some are drastically better than others, and once people are done with the "movie" aspect of the game, there better be some solid endgame hampsterwheels set up or people will move on.

That being said, the "i dont care about anything other than pvp" crowd should be moving along once the oppertunity to jump to another new standard issue themepark comes along, as is always and forever with this crowd, leaving their previous game full of venom and hate towards it for failing misrably, regardless of its succes...as is tradition.

The feeling i have with this themepark is diffrent fromt he rest, which usually involve a month getting to endgame, bypassing lots of content at the end because its not entertaining, then running pve instances and a few pvp for a month, then going back to sandboxes for a year. This game has a diffrent feel to it, i dont mind the setting and world im in since its not the same fantasy forest ive been in since i left anarchy online way back in the day. Im interested in a few otehr classes, they have diffrent content as far as storyline that are well enough in quality.

I will say, i do have little interest in endgame pve or pvp in this game, themepark pvp is boring to me, and the pve instances seem to lack...not sure what it is but in rift i really got into raiding (it was hard) but this game seems to have all its "good" put into those cutscene stories.

I should also point out the glaring fact that untill GW2 comes out, which is the next in the progression of themeparks gone wild, this game will not be tested in terms of loyalty. However it was nothing like rift where everyone was saying the whole time they were playing that game to tide them over for SWTOR.

As long as they build up a solid base of endgame before everyone rerolls a few alts, and possibly releases a new set of race/companions and a new class or story to progess through...this game will be just fine for a very long time So long as they dont appeal to the pvp crowd thats going to leave anyway and wreck pve balance things will be fine...but they are doing that now so not sure.

I agree with a lot of what you posted, but I don't agree SWTOR will be fine for a long time. SWTOR pleasantlly surprised me with it's implementation of story, but to be honest I'm done with it now. The PVP, as you noted, is very very very very very very very very very lacking which is what my endgame typically is. I'm not an altoholic and I usually play a single character. I take my time and enjoy that character, but now I am done and have moved on already.

Those that don't like to roll alts will be dropping out at an increasing pace now and in the near future, in my opinion.

And again, I'm no hater at all and I think SWTOR has raised the bar in terms of story for MMOs. But no meaningful or even vaguely intersting PVP means a huge segment will simply enjoy the story for a month or two and then move on...

evilastro · January 2012

Originally posted by sanosukex

Originally posted by evilastro

Its not going anywhere until at least GW2 / Tera come out, and even then it will have a bunch of people who just like Star Wars / traditional MMOs that hang around.

Bottom line is that its better than WoW / Rift at the moment, but its upper potential is fairly limited since they aimed for the old school MMO market.

they definatley did not aim for the old school mmo market.. they aimed for people who never played MMOs before because those are the ones who won't notice all the glaring problems and things they poorly implemented from MMOs of the past. Also people like me who have been playing these game forever aren't pleased with getting more of the same from such a high profile game.

By old school I mean the current generation of EQ / WoW clones with no dynamic combat.

evilastro · January 2012

Originally posted by Crunchy221
Well...

Its a standard issue themepark at its heart. Absolutley nothing diffrent about this game than any other themepark since 2004.

However. It does offer interesting cutscene stories. The lore isnt the typical medieval fantasy which has been beaten to death.

And it has star wars...which will have a following no matter how crappy and lame the product attached to it is.

My honest opinion, and this is from just finishing the storyline for one character....this game will have to worry about keeping players after people are done rolling a few alts for the other storylines. Some are drastically better than others, and once people are done with the "movie" aspect of the game, there better be some solid endgame hampsterwheels set up or people will move on.

That being said, the "i dont care about anything other than pvp" crowd should be moving along once the oppertunity to jump to another new standard issue themepark comes along, as is always and forever with this crowd, leaving their previous game full of venom and hate towards it for failing misrably, regardless of its succes...as is tradition.

The feeling i have with this themepark is diffrent fromt he rest, which usually involve a month getting to endgame, bypassing lots of content at the end because its not entertaining, then running pve instances and a few pvp for a month, then going back to sandboxes for a year. This game has a diffrent feel to it, i dont mind the setting and world im in since its not the same fantasy forest ive been in since i left anarchy online way back in the day. Im interested in a few otehr classes, they have diffrent content as far as storyline that are well enough in quality.

I will say, i do have little interest in endgame pve or pvp in this game, themepark pvp is boring to me, and the pve instances seem to lack...not sure what it is but in rift i really got into raiding (it was hard) but this game seems to have all its "good" put into those cutscene stories.

I should also point out the glaring fact that untill GW2 comes out, which is the next in the progression of themeparks gone wild, this game will not be tested in terms of loyalty. However it was nothing like rift where everyone was saying the whole time they were playing that game to tide them over for SWTOR.

As long as they build up a solid base of endgame before everyone rerolls a few alts, and possibly releases a new set of race/companions and a new class or story to progess through...this game will be just fine for a very long time So long as they dont appeal to the pvp crowd thats going to leave anyway and wreck pve balance things will be fine...but they are doing that now so not sure.

You say you liked the raiding in Rift, but you havent tried the Operations in SWTOR? They are much more interesting. The easy modes are too easy, but the Nightmare mode provides a nice challenge with interesting fights.

I tried all the end game raids in Rift back when they had that green dragon thing, I would never describe anything in Rift as hard, it was even easier than WoW. I raided by pressing 2 buttons. One for single target damage, one for AE damage. As both DPS and a Tank.

RefMinor · January 2012

Originally posted by oobla

Originally posted by RefMinor

Another premature thread, come back in summer.

Take another look ats what actuallly said in the opening statement then maybe you'll see I hinted it would be difficult to sustain long term . Another person prematurly commenting on something rather than absorbing whats actually there . I would watch that if you dont want to have a carear serving at Mac Donalds .

And the reason you "hinted it would be difficult to sustain long term" is because it is premature and you should come back in summer.

As for my career at McDonalds, I shall sit here in my leather armchair in the house I own outright and research that on my iPad2 to see whether your suggestion has any merit.

drbaltazar · January 2012

most baught the time card with the game (60 days)so check back after 60 days plus free time if there was any at lunch !people for most part weont resub ,but like i say most got time card at buying!

hercules · January 2012

everyone loves star wars you know

Kyleran · January 2012

Originally posted by oobla

Originally posted by ste2000

Originally posted by oobla

Quite frankly I had my doubts as to what would happen in month 2 . I was convinced there would be a large drop off this has thus far failed to materialise with plenty of full servers and no low ones at peak times . I think the reason for this is because it appeals to people who enjoy single player RPG games . ToR to me is a single player rpg game with mmo elements which is the reverse of most mmos where story takes a back seat . I think whats happened is that ToR has attracted people that dont normally play mmos . Maybe some are StarWars fans and others are fans of games like Dragon Age or Mass Effect and perhaps went into the game not expecting any different to what they have got . The trick Bioware may have pulled off is spotting a gap in the mmo market . Still you cant argue with success and the game although it maybe not what many of us wanted ( I felt this myself ) it is indeed maintaining its numbers well into month 2 . Of course to retain that long term will require updates to the story on a regular basis .

You seems pretty sure about your numbers, where do you get your information?

Erm are you refering to the numbers of servers that are full and not low population . I simply logged in and counted them . I guess you could say Bioware are tyring to hoodwink us by fixing them . Still people said that about WoW just makes you look like a conspiracy nutter .

Actually, that's one good way we can compare SWTORs success to WOW. While WOW started with fewer servers, and staggered its launch as I recall (EU folks had to wait a bit) WOW kept adding new servers as the months and expansions went by due to continual overcrowding.
Eventually they ended up with over 450 total if I remember correctly. In my case I played 9 months from launch, took a 3 month breal and came back to join my friends who had all rerolled on a new oceanic server that had just opened, almost a year after launch.

Jason2444 · January 2012

TOR

Retaining its subscribers

BAAAAHAHAHAHHAHA

http://www.torstatus.net/shards/us/stats

winter · January 2012

Originally posted by Jason2444
TOR

Retaining its subscribers

BAAAAHAHAHAHHAHA

http://www.torstatus.net/shards/us/stats

Well except for the 12 y/o's it bans bahahaha!

winter · January 2012

Originally posted by oobla
Quite frankly I had my doubts as to what would happen in month 2 . I was convinced there would be a large drop off this has thus far failed to materialise with plenty of full servers and no low ones at peak times . I think the reason for this is because it appeals to people who enjoy single player RPG games . ToR to me is a single player rpg game with mmo elements which is the reverse of most mmos where story takes a back seat . I think whats happened is that ToR has attracted people that dont normally play mmos . Maybe some are StarWars fans and others are fans of games like Dragon Age or Mass Effect and perhaps went into the game not expecting any different to what they have got . The trick Bioware may have pulled off is spotting a gap in the mmo market . Still you cant argue with success and the game although it maybe not what many of us wanted ( I felt this myself ) it is indeed maintaining its numbers well into month 2 . Of course to retain that long term will require updates to the story on a regular basis .

You maybe right. If the number of players upset about unplanned downtime is any indictation then there are alot of people still wanting to play very badly. However the trick will be seeing how well Bioware / Ea keeps content coming in to keep players subscribed as leveling is very fast.

BarCrow · January 2012

Originally posted by Jason2444
TOR

Retaining its subscribers

BAAAAHAHAHAHHAHA

http://www.torstatus.net/shards/us/stats

When most people use the term "retention" it means the majority of customers do not cancel. You attempt to retain as many old customers while appealing to new/potential customers. This seems to be the case as of right now for SWTOR. Sure...keeping all of your subscribers would be great but unheard of for an MMO. Your post is really not a situation in which "BAAAAHAHAHAHHAHA" seems to apply.

Jason2444 · January 2012

Originally posted by oobla
I was convinced there would be a large drop off this has thus far failed to materialise with plenty of full servers and no low ones at peak times .

Uh.... What?

The US servers struggle to even get a very high pop server at peak hours. What are you talking about?

Jason2444 · January 2012

Originally posted by BarCrow
When most people use the term "retention" it means the majority of customers do not cancel. You attempt to retain as many old customers while appealing to new/potential customers. This seems to be the case as of right now for SWTOR. Sure...keeping all of your subscribers would be great but unheard of for an MMO. Your post is really not a situation in which "BAAAAHAHAHAHHAHA" seems to apply.

What?... WHAT?

Have you been looking at the forums recently? People are already calling for server merges. If this game had a high retention rate than server activity would have risen or AT THE VERY LEAST evened out since the new people who compensate for the old people leaving.

But we don't see that. What we see is an average of 10-20% less server activity every week.

How far down do the server activity graphs have to sink before you accept that Bioware grand experiment is a failure?

BarCrow · January 2012

Originally posted by Jason2444

Originally posted by BarCrow
When most people use the term "retention" it means the majority of customers do not cancel. You attempt to retain as many old customers while appealing to new/potential customers. This seems to be the case as of right now for SWTOR. Sure...keeping all of your subscribers would be great but unheard of for an MMO. Your post is really not a situation in which "BAAAAHAHAHAHHAHA" seems to apply.

What?... WHAT?

Have you been looking at the forums recently? People are already calling for server merges. If this game had a high retention rate than server activity would have risen or AT THE VERY LEAST evened out since the new people who compensate for the old people leaving.

But we don't see that. What we see is an average of 10-20% less server activity every week.

How far down do the server activity graphs have to sink before you accept that Bioware grand experiment is a failure?

What?...what? Didn't you read the linked stats? I was going by the stats that were posted on this thread....not your forum adventures. I'll accept that it is a failure....or no longer a viable gaming option..when I can't see anyone playing or can't complete groups quests at all...on my server. When the game is no longer entertaining me..then I will accept it's demise in MY gaming world because my fun is all I give a shit about.

Jason2444 · January 2012

Originally posted by BarCrow
What?...what? Didn't you read the linked stats? I was going by the stats that were posted on this thread....not your forum adventures. I'll accept that it is a failure....or no longer a viable gaming option..when I can't see anyone playing or can't complete groups quests at all...on my server. When the game is no longer entertaining me..then I will accept it's demise in MY gaming world because my fun is all I give a shit about.

Yes, I've heard this drivvle before with every failed WoW clone.

And even if you think SWTOR is fun, there are things about SWTOR that make it FACUTALLY bad. Like the fact that AA had to be patch in AFTER release.

The fact that kill swapping is legal

The fact that Bioware didn't have the foresight to implement high res textures in the final release

The fact that most quests are shared between classes

The fact that the UI can't customized

The fact that there are still numerous bugs

The fact that all the above is true DESPITE the fact that Bioware was given hundreds of millions of dollars and 7 years.

Oh and even one of the analysts sticking up for SWTOR said they projected 800k subs while at the same time projecting 3 million copies sold by the end of march.

Thats less than a 30% retention rate. Sleep well

smh_alot · January 2012

Originally posted by Jason2444

Originally posted by BarCrow
What?...what? Didn't you read the linked stats? I was going by the stats that were posted on this thread....not your forum adventures. I'll accept that it is a failure....or no longer a viable gaming option..when I can't see anyone playing or can't complete groups quests at all...on my server. When the game is no longer entertaining me..then I will accept it's demise in MY gaming world because my fun is all I give a shit about.

Yes, I've heard this drivvle before with every failed WoW clone.

And even if you think SWTOR is fun, there are things about SWTOR that make it FACUTALLY bad. Like the fact that AA had to be patch in AFTER release.

(snips the opinionated stuff)

Oh and even one of the analysts sticking up for SWTOR said they projected 800k subs while at the same time projecting 3 million copies sold by the end of march.

Thats less than a 30% retention rate. Sleep well

Hatred or disgust for traditional themepark MMO's doesn't add credibility to an argument, I'd say it makes an argument even less credible -_-

Analists say all kinds of things, mostly contrary of eachother, which is funny because they all talk about reality and how the future will be. As for the 30% retention, that's a figure that has been mentioned a lot regarding player retention for MMO's, if an analist wants to use that figure for his projections, that's on him, but only time will tell how things will end up to be.

udorus · January 2012

Well as EA's stock price has bombed by over 25% since the end of November it would suggest that everything is not rosy with SWTOR especially given the exchange it trades on has surged by over 20% in the same period. Still i'm no analyst but there is no disputing facts.

TheLizardbones · January 2012

Originally posted by udorus
Well as EA's stock price has bombed by over 25% since the end of November it would suggest that everything is not rosy with SWTOR especially given the exchange it trades on has surged by over 20% in the same period. Still i'm no analyst but there is no disputing facts.

There's lots of disputing interpretations of facts. SWToR isn't the only game that EA has a hand in.

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I think the reason ToR is retaining its popularity is that it appeals to the the RPG audiance rather

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I think the reason ToR is retaining its popularity is that it appeals to the the RPG audiance rather

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