Originally posted by fizzle32 People who live such idyllic lives that they NEED virtual stress and strife are indeed the minority. If thats the case then have at it, and get that heartrate up, but if you think everyone's a pussy and you're so brave, thats just not the case, you're just more bored than everybody else and need the extra stimulation of real emotions thats lacking from your daily life.
We just want a challenge, because we find challenge, politics and consequences more interesting. MMO's have become games of leveling to gain more levels in the process of gaining more levels to show off your loot to friends that you use to gain levels with. We just want it to be... more than that.
Most of you guys have it all wrong... The stifness in penalties that existed in EQ1 or any of the other games during the 'hardcore 90's', I assume made the game tougher and more challenging (never played MMO's up until 3 years ago).... To be honest, I am suprised that I have lvl'ed my EQ2 Warlock up to 25, generally I never have enough time to even make it that far. I like MMO's, but if anything were to be more challenging or time consuming than what is available today, I would stop playing MMO's altogether, and then you wouldn't have the masses of low lvl's present to make you feel superior...
In all honesty, when I hear someone like the OP stating that they breezed through both WoW and EQ2, sounds like you need something more than just an MMO, you need an all-inclusive life-sucking time sink that 99% of everyone else simply doesn't have the time for... There can not be anymore 'hardcoreness' to these types of games anymore, they are too much a part of the mainstream now... The 'parent's basement dwelling crackhouse gamers' will have to find another time sink to fill the void...
Really, what is it you are after? Do you honestly want more reasons to be glued in front of your monitor? Do you look back at your WoW and EQ2 experiences and say, "That was kinda fun, but if it took me another 6 months to get to the top, it would have been more fun"...? Is this what you say/think?
Originally posted by Dis_Ordur Most of you guys have it all wrong... The stifness in penalties that existed in EQ1 or any of the other games during the 'hardcore 90's', I assume made the game tougher and more challenging (never played MMO's up until 3 years ago).... To be honest, I am suprised that I have lvl'ed my EQ2 Warlock up to 25, generally I never have enough time to even make it that far. I like MMO's, but if anything were to be more challenging or time consuming than what is available today, I would stop playing MMO's altogether, and then you wouldn't have the masses of low lvl's present to make you feel superior... In all honesty, when I hear someone like the OP stating that they breezed through both WoW and EQ2, sounds like you need something more than just an MMO, you need an all-inclusive life-sucking time sink that 99% of everyone else simply doesn't have the time for... There can not be anymore 'hardcoreness' to these types of games anymore, they are too much a part of the mainstream now... The 'parent's basement dwelling crackhouse gamers' will have to find another time sink to fill the void... Really, what is it you are after? Do you honestly want more reasons to be glued in front of your monitor? Do you look back at your WoW and EQ2 experiences and say, "That was kinda fun, but if it took me another 6 months to get to the top, it would have been more fun"...? Is this what you say/think?
I'm just looking for an entertaining game, I don't spend more than 1-2 hours playing the game all the time. Sometimes when I have extra time to kill I spend more time than that. There has to be a good balance. Games haven't really shown diminishing returns in leveling... EG the difference in strength from a level 1-2 is the difference in strength from a level 90-100. Haven't seen a game put dimishing returns in very well. So you can still level for that .05% betterment, but you remain competitive if you don't.
Originally posted by Dis_Ordur Most of you guys have it all wrong... The stifness in penalties that existed in EQ1 or any of the other games during the 'hardcore 90's', I assume made the game tougher and more challenging (never played MMO's up until 3 years ago).... To be honest, I am suprised that I have lvl'ed my EQ2 Warlock up to 25, generally I never have enough time to even make it that far. I like MMO's, but if anything were to be more challenging or time consuming than what is available today, I would stop playing MMO's altogether, and then you wouldn't have the masses of low lvl's present to make you feel superior... In all honesty, when I hear someone like the OP stating that they breezed through both WoW and EQ2, sounds like you need something more than just an MMO, you need an all-inclusive life-sucking time sink that 99% of everyone else simply doesn't have the time for... There can not be anymore 'hardcoreness' to these types of games anymore, they are too much a part of the mainstream now... The 'parent's basement dwelling crackhouse gamers' will have to find another time sink to fill the void... Really, what is it you are after? Do you honestly want more reasons to be glued in front of your monitor? Do you look back at your WoW and EQ2 experiences and say, "That was kinda fun, but if it took me another 6 months to get to the top, it would have been more fun"...? Is this what you say/think?
You are confusing "challenging" with "time consuming." They are not related.
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The problem is that most people already get that competition in their normal daily lives. What I imagine a "hardcore game" to be is a watered down version of life. Why would you want that, unless you live such a stress free life that you need simulated competition to feel human. I dont need a virtual opponent to be angry with, I already get that face to face. The ultimate hardcore game I played was a Battletech 2056 MUD, had permadeath. I guess UO was also hardcore but the gameplay was so slow and doofy that it really didnt matter. Eve has been accused of being "hardcore" but really it's pretty forgiving. And yeah, you're right, you are the minority. People who live such idyllic lives that they NEED virtual stress and strife are indeed the minority. If thats the case then have at it, and get that heartrate up, but if you think everyone's a pussy and you're so brave, thats just not the case, you're just more bored than everybody else and need the extra stimulation of real emotions thats lacking from your daily life. I hear Lineage is pretty "hardcore" why aint you playing that? I bet dying and losing a full day of work would get the heartrate up pretty high... LOL
The amount of misinformed information in this thread in general is astounding. It also paints a fairly clear picture of why the gaming community is so divided between the so called hardcore and the so called carebears. Honestly its not that either group is necessarly right or wrong, its that the Content the developers have been cramming down our throats for years now paints only one part of the canvas. I can also pretty easily assume that the majority of people here posting snide remarks like the above toward the hardcore attitude have been gaming easily less then 5 years and really have no concept of what we are talking about.
For those who have been online gaming for less then 5 years you should read this and pay attention to what I am saying, its being said by alot of gamers But i am going to attempt to make it as understandable as possible.
The primary complaints heard are generally along these lines, " I do not want to lose weeks of hard work in a single death, I dont want the Stress of being angry with someone virtually, I have enough competition in my normal life I dont want it in game" Lets address these three primary complaints.
Lost time, Now in the current generation of MMORPG's time > all. The more time you have the more stuff you aquire. Stuff does not decay, Items and Equipment Make or Break your character, outside doing something stupid there is no possible way to lose your equipment. However Leveling also takes very long amounts of time usually requiring months to top out and Items can sometimes take months to aquire. You see the problem here is not the Gamer, I consider myself hardcore and honestly for the amount of time it would take me to aquire most items in game I would not consider a system where I could lose all that in seconds a good system. However I have an advantage over most gamers that play these games in that I have played many years longer and I have experienced the other side of the fence. Games that are Well designed should not require months to cap out, should not require weeks of camping items and mostly Items Should Never Make or break your character but simply enhance the abilities you have trained. Too many gamers are of the EQ mentality in that they Expect to Experience grind ( Dungeon diving is effectively a dead term ), They expect to camp for days, weeks, months for that rare npc to drop the item they want, They expect to have to form massive raids of people to see the high end content. The thing is you do not have to, If you expect this there is a problem with the games that are being pushed out.
Virtual Anger, Firstly on this I would simply like to point out if you are getting physically angry at someone in a Game. Its time to quit. Honestly even from a competition stand point there is simply no excuse for getting angry..fustrated yes..angry no. If you truly get angry at people in game kindly quit gaming now before you kill someone and give imbiciles like Jack Thompson more firepower for their stupid little crusade. Secondly, This is stress caused by crappy game development. Let me point out something here lets Take EQ for example. You have some little 13 y/o smacktard come up and start kill stealing the camp you were camping for that piece of uber loot you have been waiting on for days. ( reference my first point for this bad design flaw ) You first ask him to stop, he ignores you, you ask him to stop again as you were here first, he then proceeds to live up to his stereotype and taunt you. Now you start getting angry but you realize the only thing you can do is ..Oh wait thats right you cant do a damn thing, you cant petition the GMs have better things to do, you cant Train him out because Guess what you then break the rules and the GM throws you out and you cant Kill him because there is no open PVP. Now I do not know about you but personally I find that a whole lot more irritating then being able to blast the little shithead and or getting killed myself and just chalking it up to the fact he was better then me anyhow.
Competition RL/Virtual, This is again another one of those things where you have to stop and ask yourself what you are getting so worked up over. Firstly what are you competiting at in reality? I know I work 40 hours a week, I know there is stress associated with that, however I have never viewed work as a competition. Perhaps you need a new job. On that note honestly I find there is no better way to relieve the stress of a bad day then to get online and start killing people. But again, part of this is derived from the fact that Games are being poorly designed, the fun factor is gone. And yes you can have all the elements of a game and it still be fun. Just because someone can kill you does not mean its a competition or stressful, you know if Items were not so important as Devs make them death would have less impact from that perspective.
Now my final thoughts, If the above three factors are unacceptable to you, I will simply ask Why are you playing online games? Why are you adding unnecessary stress to your life when you are obviously incapable of dealing with it properly? Do you just want a Chatroom with lots of pretty colors? I am being dead serious here I am not being condencending like I usually am, Why Do you Play Online Games if it Irritates you so badly? Honestly Offline games are far more enjoyable from that perspective and you do not have to worry about people incroaching on your fun.
Originally posted by Bobiin I've said it before, and I will say it again. Ever scince PoP came out for EQ, i have been begging for a "Classic" type server with just RoK and SoV enabled. The oldschool EQ had everything you were talking about.
Except PVP
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online. Sig image Pending Still in: A couple Betas
The bottom line is that a "hard core" game has little or nothing to do with "Time sinks" or "Time consuming". Yes they sometimes ARE Time consuming but not because artificial gates (like level quests) have been put in place to hinder advancement speed.
A Hardcore MMORPG, in my opinion, is one that both maximizes roleplay potential as well as maximizing the ideal of Risk -vs- Reward.
In a "Hard Core" MMORPG in order to get the greatest rewards players must be willing to take greater risks. I will be the first to admit that I DO enjoy games that don't require massive effort but it's also nice to have a game where my character has to take extraordinary risks in order to gain extraordinary items.
In a "Hard Core" MMORPG there is a FEAR of dying because it has meaning beyond just "oh man, now I have to run all the way back here from my bind point". It doesn't necessarily mean Permadeath but it does mean that you don't just go attack a mob because you MIGHT be able to take it out. You attack knowing if you die you're going to have a hard time recovering from it.
"Awe man, we just wasted 15 minutes" is not Hard Core. It's a time sink. It's meaningless. "Awe crap I just lost 50000000 xp" is not Hard Core. It's a time sink, it's counter productive, and it's a negative impact on the game. Death shouldn't slow character advancement unless the character is unprepared to deal with death.
"Awe crap! I have to get back and get my stuff!" Is Hard Core. "Oh crap! I need to get my stuff before someone else loots it!" Is Hard Core In the above two examples while, yes, losing one's stuff COULD be detrimental to the character's progression it is only so if the character is not prepared, with alternate equipment sets, etc. In those cases while losing the equipment may be an annoyance and possibly upsetting, it's not preventing them from continuing to advance their character.
XP Loss and XP Debt are stupid concepts designed SOLELY to slow advancement in a game because many Game Developers think keeping players glued to the level grind as long as possible is the only way to keep them interested.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online. Sig image Pending Still in: A couple Betas
Originally posted by Elnator In a "Hard Core" MMORPG there is a FEAR of dying because it has meaning beyond just "oh man, now I have to run all the way back here from my bind point". It doesn't necessarily mean Permadeath but it does mean that you don't just go attack a mob because you MIGHT be able to take it out. You attack knowing if you die you're going to have a hard time recovering from it.
I concur completely, I would say that in EQ2, and CoH to name a couple, that I am very AFRAID of dying... XP debt sucks royally, and I do have a hard time recovering with the slower rate of xp gain until the debt runs up, this coupled with item decay and revive sickness. I think this is fine, and does prevent every Tom, Dick and Harry from picking up an MMO like EQ2... WoW wasn't my cup of tea, and I didn't like the death system there as well... As my earlier post said, I hate timesinks as well, but WoW could be quite a bit more challenging, whereas EQ2 IMO is perfect for death penalty implementation...
Originally posted by Elnator In a "Hard Core" MMORPG there is a FEAR of dying because it has meaning beyond just "oh man, now I have to run all the way back here from my bind point". It doesn't necessarily mean Permadeath but it does mean that you don't just go attack a mob because you MIGHT be able to take it out. You attack knowing if you die you're going to have a hard time recovering from it.
I concur completely, I would say that in EQ2, and CoH to name a couple, that I am very AFRAID of dying... XP debt sucks royally, and I do have a hard time recovering with the slower rate of xp gain until the debt runs up, this coupled with item decay and revive sickness. I think this is fine, and does prevent every Tom, Dick and Harry from picking up an MMO like EQ2... WoW wasn't my cup of tea, and I didn't like the death system there as well... As my earlier post said, I hate timesinks as well, but WoW could be quite a bit more challenging, whereas EQ2 IMO is perfect for death penalty implementation...
Hate to break it to you but this is exactly what some of us are ranting about. Debt is not a penalty its a timesink. As for the slower xp gain, Please with the rest exp you get unless you are in an exceptionally stupid group and stay in it which would be exceptionally stupid in itself Debt is a joke. I had a level 50 in EQ2 So I am well familiar with the debt system, I also go 50 before they made it stupidly easy with the bonus exp. Also Debt decreases with time, so you can simply log off to wear it off. But Still it is as mentioned before nothing but a timesink.
WoW went to the other extreme, death has no penalty at all. Oh and if you consider that insignificant amount of coin to repair gear a penalty please walk away from gaming now. So I agree with you Dis_order on this. I simply diagree with the debt system being anything other then a minor inconvience, I never once feared death in EQ2, heck even the numerous death's eaten on Darathar Raids were laughable at best.
Sorry but neither WoW or EQ have any penalty for death that makes one fear death.
No you're right, games ARE stale, it HAS turned into a "who has the cooler armor" contest and I think what causes this is the rarity of drops and having to camp them.
If you spend 2 weeks camping "Gleaming Robe of the Cockjockies" how willing would you be to lose it, especially if you get ganked by someone higher level than you.
The solution IMO is to have mainly crafted weapons and armor being used, if you lose all your stuff you just mine and craft yourself a new one. Its still painful to lose, but its alot more reasonable. This is the system in Eve and I find it enjoyable.
And yeah, I meant Battletech 3056, we used to spend most of our time simming against each other, and real battles were pretty rare, they were heartpumping and adrenaline filled, I still get that feeling in Eve believe it or not.
I'm sorry I dont mean to keep harping about Eve over and over but right now to me Eve is the ONLY good MMORPG in existance, I'm just crazy about it, it has everything I ever wanted. I can't go play anything else right now because its just stale. WoW was fun for about 3 months, but its not a game you play for a lifetime.
Eve isn't a game so much as a living breathing UNIVERSE where ppl from all different countries interact and build empires. It's the perfect game if they can conquer the technical problems of having 12000+ people in 1 game world.
I Have played various MMO since the early days of Ultima online, and I was playing MUDs even before that, and I 100% agree with the OP, and I think there is a large crowd of MMO players out there who really do want this. Whenever you get to the highest levels of an MMO (and I dont just mean Max level) when your raiding the big bosses, and your cruising with your uber guild thats where you find the people that crave the challenges of the Hardcore 90's its not the casual gamers who don't have a lot of time, or want to devote large quantities of time to a game, its the people who dont have a problem sitting down for a 10 hour raid on a lazy sunday afternoon. I think this crowd of people is craving a game that will really challenge them in a whole host of different ways.
A truly great mmo has something for everyone; tradeskills that are tough but not a terrible grind (eq2 im looking at you), a world thats big enough that you can always find a place to go thats not filled with people, but not so empty that there are just huge spaces with nothing to do(shadowbane), Levels need to be hard to come by, but there have to be interesting things to do at ever level the game cant be too easy to level in (DAOC) or just simply impossible to level in (Lineage). There needs to be somesort of balance between these different games, something that everyone can do not just the most "hardcore" of us stuff needs to be easy enough that novice gamers can get into it but hard enough that there are abundant places to go at any level where its tough enough for even the most "hardcore" of us gamers.
UO:pre-Ren I think has the best mix of all these things, when there were lots of things to do for everyone, you could tradeskill, or hunt, or dungeon craw, or pvp, and all of them were viable ways to earn a living and have a fun gaming experience. You made the most money killing people in dungeons but it was also the most dangerous, while harvesting and tradeskilling was the safest but usually had the lowest returns. Games need to have the whole gambit of carebare to hardcore, but its the players that need to decide where they fall in. If you dont wanna get into trouble go mine where the guards patrol, but if your up for a bit more excitement then head out into the wild and find a place a little less crowded, but run the risk of angry critters and dangerous players.
I really dont understand why ever game as of late has taken the Risk outa there games and in the end thats what all of this comes down to. There is no such thing as RISK vs REWARD the motto of all good MMO disigners when there is no real Risk, or the Risk is so trivial that it dosent matter, its the Risk that makes the Reward that much sweeter. Games need to make you feel like your accomplishing something if they really want to hold the intrest of the more Hardcore players
For those of who that may have confused challenging and spending a lot of time as one in the same thing, think of this analogy. If you paint a house both inside and out, that's time consuming not challenging, but if you painted something that requires precision or a element of skill that's challenging, whether it takes the same amount of time to painting a house is irrelevant since anyone can do that but few can do the latter.
Maybe the world has changed to much to bring what is the 90's back, the internet was just starting to reach momentum, now most colleges, schools, workplaces have it.
Let's say there is a difficult encounter in a mmorpg, once someone has solved how to do it, it ends up on a forum then another and within minutes anyone can google it. All that developer's effort has evaporated since it's now common knowledge, what was once a challenge becomes easy or at least significantly easier.
If you want a game with nice graphics and millions of investments, you need to find a company that will believe there are millions of customers...and there are not millions of ''hardcores''.
Sorry to break your bubbles. You should go check every MUDs, some are pretty much hardcores and just newly released. Oh, you want nice graphics...well, then you have to cope with the others customers and what they want...and they dont want such hardcoreness.
Personnally I always enjoy friendly non-PvP competition, but most folks on the market dont even like this friendly competition and will talk to you about the cooperation aspect of the game. For someone like me competition and cooperation mix extremely well, simply because I value cooperation slightly more then competition...yet, I would not lie...if I can compete, I will, not at the direct expense of cooperation, but if the other players dont like this friendly non-harming competition, then yes, it could harm the cooperation, but the problem is not me, I never stop cooperating and yes, I will gladly group folks that are ahead of me even if it mean I cant catch them...but 1 day they may not log on and I may catch on them!
Pure harsh competition? As far as I am concerned, as long as the game dont exceed 4 hours in complete lifespan, I will enjoy it. If the game have a lifespan of many days, then I wont approve harsh competition in any form.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
First, let me apologize for not having the stomach to get past the second page of this "Hardercore Than Thou" bullshit. Seriously, who would've thought that there are actually people that like to simulate walking for hours on end? Go play Deer Hunter and get it out of your system. Better yet, go hiking!! Maybe then you could sweat some of that hostility out of your fat "hardcore" ass!
If you've ever read any of my other posts, you'll know that I totally fucking HATE the term "Hardcore." It's just some bullshit buzzword that some marketing asshole in the '80s made up to sell worthless crap to stupid teenagers. If you're so "hardcore" about RPGs then why don't you get your so called friends together and LARP with live steel weapons. Hell, I'll pay for the videos of that!
Open PvP? Why? because you feel inadequate in RL and need to greif newbies to feel better about the fact that everyone can kick your ass? If you had any real skill you'd be playing Battlefield 2 or Rome: Total War. However, since you apparently have no reflexes or gift for strategy, you whine about not being able to hide behind some uber character that your guild buddies nursed into the level cap. Yeah, real fuckin' "hardcore." I guess it's just easier to piss people off when they aren't able to grab hold of you and wring your neck. Or when you only have to check the color code of their character.
As a PvP player, I have to say that PvP in an MMORPG is totally pointless. It would be different if there really was some kind of balance that kept the playing field level and promoted sound teamwork and strategy (Guild Wars <cough> <cough>), but most of the time it's all about who has the phattest loot, the highest level and the most gank buddies. Yeah, you're so freakin' "hardcore" it's scary
Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe First, let me apologize for not having the stomach to get past the second page of this "Hardercore Than Thou" bullshit. Seriously, who would've thought that there are actually people that like to simulate walking for hours on end? Go play Deer Hunter and get it out of your system. Better yet, go hiking!! Maybe then you could sweat some of that hostility out of your fat "hardcore" ass! If you've ever read any of my other posts, you'll know that I totally fucking HATE the term "Hardcore." It's just some bullshit buzzword that some marketing asshole in the '80s made up to sell worthless crap to stupid teenagers. If you're so "hardcore" about RPGs then why don't you get your so called friends together and LARP with live steel weapons. Hell, I'll pay for the videos of that!Open PvP? Why? because you feel inadequate in RL and need to greif newbies to feel better about the fact that everyone can kick your ass? If you had any real skill you'd be playing Battlefield 2 or Rome: Total War. However, since you apparently have no reflexes or gift for strategy, you whine about not being able to hide behind some uber character that your guild buddies nursed into the level cap. Yeah, real fuckin' "hardcore." I guess it's just easier to piss people off when they aren't able to grab hold of you and wring your neck. Or when you only have to check the color code of their character. As a PvP player, I have to say that PvP in an MMORPG is totally pointless. It would be different if there really was some kind of balance that kept the playing field level and promoted sound teamwork and strategy (Guild Wars <cough> <cough>), but most of the time it's all about who has the phattest loot, the highest level and the most gank buddies. Yeah, you're so freakin' "hardcore" it's scary
Winner of most unconstructive post of the year award. and what ever happened to the language filters around here, I got a one week ban the first time swore, and now people are droppin bombs like this was a shower room in a penitentiary and this msgboard is their bitch.
So what was unconstructive about it? Yeah, it was blunt and vulgar but I think I made my point very, very clearly. However, if you didn't see the point I'll be more than happy to put it into even smaller words that you can easily understand.
If you want PvP, Play a game that REQUIRES SKILL!!!
of course, if you really want open PvP, permadeath, full looting and no teleporting...... You could send out a message on your favorite game and start a petition for a "Hardcore" server. Yeah, it's an idea straight out of Diablo 2, but if it's stupid and it works, then........
You ARE niche market, but that's hardly any reason to not give you your own isolated slice of anarchy to play with.
I agree with the O.P. completely. I am sick of being spoon-fed in the games I play. At least companies should have one "hardcore" ruleset server, where people who enjoy a decent challenge can find a home. Kudos, your time was not wasted typing that post.
Because computer games use to be made for adults. Now computer games are made for the widest audience which means often they cater to adolescents. They "try" to do just enough to keep adults playing but they really go out of their way to get the younger market.
I have to disagree with that last one. Computer games were originally designed for the widest possible audience. Pong, Pac man, Galga, etc... These games were made for anyone to play and, gollygeegoshwow, they were hard! Zork is another example of a game for all ages (that could read anyway) that was difficult. Let's not blame the kids or the G rating folks. Bad design is the usually the culprit for a poor game. In the current market, popularity is the measure of quality. The school slut was popular, it didn't make her life any better or her character any more respectable. So it is also with games. The lowest common denominator rules. Adapt to it.
Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe As a PvP player, I have to say that PvP in an MMORPG is totally pointless.
Hmm, naw.
Some of us don't want to be spoonfed and don't like being power levelled. I want a hardcore game (which in my opinion just tries to make things as realistic as possible as though we could really be in that world) like old UO that doesn't cater to the thronging masses who just want a free ride to the endgame.
I understand your point however that PvP in an MMORPG is extremely hard to balance. Hey, I played UO so I hear ya. Some people will always have an advantage, like knowing how to make macros perfect and sitting on a certain ledge where you can gank people endlessly and they can't get to you. Not exactly those things but you know what I mean, an unfair advantage.
But that's what makes those experiences so exhilarating! That first time that you actually got the best of that griefing n00b killer! Revenge is sweet, even if he owned you 500 times, as long as you owned him that once, you feel like you climbed mount Everest and had a kegger at the top. I know it sucks when people grief, but without more open style of rules you can't get those great thrills either.
Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe First, let me apologize for not having the stomach to get past the second page of this "Hardercore Than Thou" bullshit. Seriously, who would've thought that there are actually people that like to simulate walking for hours on end? Go play Deer Hunter and get it out of your system. Better yet, go hiking!! Maybe then you could sweat some of that hostility out of your fat "hardcore" ass! If you've ever read any of my other posts, you'll know that I totally fucking HATE the term "Hardcore." It's just some bullshit buzzword that some marketing asshole in the '80s made up to sell worthless crap to stupid teenagers. If you're so "hardcore" about RPGs then why don't you get your so called friends together and LARP with live steel weapons. Hell, I'll pay for the videos of that! Open PvP? Why? because you feel inadequate in RL and need to greif newbies to feel better about the fact that everyone can kick your ass? If you had any real skill you'd be playing Battlefield 2 or Rome: Total War. However, since you apparently have no reflexes or gift for strategy, you whine about not being able to hide behind some uber character that your guild buddies nursed into the level cap. Yeah, real fuckin' "hardcore." I guess it's just easier to piss people off when they aren't able to grab hold of you and wring your neck. Or when you only have to check the color code of their character. As a PvP player, I have to say that PvP in an MMORPG is totally pointless. It would be different if there really was some kind of balance that kept the playing field level and promoted sound teamwork and strategy (Guild Wars <cough> <cough>), but most of the time it's all about who has the phattest loot, the highest level and the most gank buddies. Yeah, you're so freakin' "hardcore" it's scary
Someone sounds like they got griefed one too many times.
And no I dont want to walk for hours on end to get to some place, I just used it as an example of how games are getting much easier and catering to us way too much. I don't want a game where PK's gank newbies all day long. I was very happy with the PK matchup in UO. Any two characters that had played for less than a week would have a chance at killing any PK back in oldtime UO. It eliminated mass gankings and put more risk on the PK's side. But that's beside the point.
And what the hell is with people thinking PvP preferenced players are huge nutcases IRL. We just want something different out of games instead of grinding out terrible A.I. all day.
I'm not saying every game should be filled with raving hordes of newbie gankers or anything of that nature.
You need to chill out, lot of anger in your posts. These are just games.
--Lilfunaho
___________________ Killer 73% Explorer 60% Achiever 46% Socializer 20%
Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe I have to disagree with that last one. Computer games were originally designed for the widest possible audience. Pong, Pac man, Galga, etc... These games were made for anyone to play and, gollygeegoshwow, they were hard! Zork is another example of a game for all ages (that could read anyway) that was difficult. Let's not blame the kids or the G rating folks. Bad design is the usually the culprit for a poor game. In the current market, popularity is the measure of quality. The school slut was popular, it didn't make her life any better or her character any more respectable. So it is also with games. The lowest common denominator rules. Adapt to it.
Computer games = PC games, i should have clarified more. Pong, galaga, pac man, donkey kong, etc etc, are arcade games BIG difference. If Zork was released today, who would buy it more, 12 years olds or 30 year olds If you needed more than 1 second to answer that, theirs nothing left to be said.
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We just want a challenge, because we find challenge, politics and consequences more interesting. MMO's have become games of leveling to gain more levels in the process of gaining more levels to show off your loot to friends that you use to gain levels with. We just want it to be... more than that.
Most of you guys have it all wrong... The stifness in penalties that existed in EQ1 or any of the other games during the 'hardcore 90's', I assume made the game tougher and more challenging (never played MMO's up until 3 years ago).... To be honest, I am suprised that I have lvl'ed my EQ2 Warlock up to 25, generally I never have enough time to even make it that far. I like MMO's, but if anything were to be more challenging or time consuming than what is available today, I would stop playing MMO's altogether, and then you wouldn't have the masses of low lvl's present to make you feel superior...
In all honesty, when I hear someone like the OP stating that they breezed through both WoW and EQ2, sounds like you need something more than just an MMO, you need an all-inclusive life-sucking time sink that 99% of everyone else simply doesn't have the time for... There can not be anymore 'hardcoreness' to these types of games anymore, they are too much a part of the mainstream now... The 'parent's basement dwelling crackhouse gamers' will have to find another time sink to fill the void...
Really, what is it you are after? Do you honestly want more reasons to be glued in front of your monitor? Do you look back at your WoW and EQ2 experiences and say, "That was kinda fun, but if it took me another 6 months to get to the top, it would have been more fun"...? Is this what you say/think?
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Killer 73%
Explorer 60%
Achiever 46%
Socializer 20%
The amount of misinformed information in this thread in general is astounding. It also paints a fairly clear picture of why the gaming community is so divided between the so called hardcore and the so called carebears. Honestly its not that either group is necessarly right or wrong, its that the Content the developers have been cramming down our throats for years now paints only one part of the canvas. I can also pretty easily assume that the majority of people here posting snide remarks like the above toward the hardcore attitude have been gaming easily less then 5 years and really have no concept of what we are talking about.
For those who have been online gaming for less then 5 years you should read this and pay attention to what I am saying, its being said by alot of gamers But i am going to attempt to make it as understandable as possible.
The primary complaints heard are generally along these lines, " I do not want to lose weeks of hard work in a single death, I dont want the Stress of being angry with someone virtually, I have enough competition in my normal life I dont want it in game" Lets address these three primary complaints.
Lost time, Now in the current generation of MMORPG's time > all. The more time you have the more stuff you aquire. Stuff does not decay, Items and Equipment Make or Break your character, outside doing something stupid there is no possible way to lose your equipment. However Leveling also takes very long amounts of time usually requiring months to top out and Items can sometimes take months to aquire. You see the problem here is not the Gamer, I consider myself hardcore and honestly for the amount of time it would take me to aquire most items in game I would not consider a system where I could lose all that in seconds a good system. However I have an advantage over most gamers that play these games in that I have played many years longer and I have experienced the other side of the fence. Games that are Well designed should not require months to cap out, should not require weeks of camping items and mostly Items Should Never Make or break your character but simply enhance the abilities you have trained. Too many gamers are of the EQ mentality in that they Expect to Experience grind ( Dungeon diving is effectively a dead term ), They expect to camp for days, weeks, months for that rare npc to drop the item they want, They expect to have to form massive raids of people to see the high end content. The thing is you do not have to, If you expect this there is a problem with the games that are being pushed out.
Virtual Anger, Firstly on this I would simply like to point out if you are getting physically angry at someone in a Game. Its time to quit. Honestly even from a competition stand point there is simply no excuse for getting angry..fustrated yes..angry no. If you truly get angry at people in game kindly quit gaming now before you kill someone and give imbiciles like Jack Thompson more firepower for their stupid little crusade. Secondly, This is stress caused by crappy game development. Let me point out something here lets Take EQ for example. You have some little 13 y/o smacktard come up and start kill stealing the camp you were camping for that piece of uber loot you have been waiting on for days. ( reference my first point for this bad design flaw ) You first ask him to stop, he ignores you, you ask him to stop again as you were here first, he then proceeds to live up to his stereotype and taunt you. Now you start getting angry but you realize the only thing you can do is ..Oh wait thats right you cant do a damn thing, you cant petition the GMs have better things to do, you cant Train him out because Guess what you then break the rules and the GM throws you out and you cant Kill him because there is no open PVP. Now I do not know about you but personally I find that a whole lot more irritating then being able to blast the little shithead and or getting killed myself and just chalking it up to the fact he was better then me anyhow.
Competition RL/Virtual, This is again another one of those things where you have to stop and ask yourself what you are getting so worked up over. Firstly what are you competiting at in reality? I know I work 40 hours a week, I know there is stress associated with that, however I have never viewed work as a competition. Perhaps you need a new job. On that note honestly I find there is no better way to relieve the stress of a bad day then to get online and start killing people. But again, part of this is derived from the fact that Games are being poorly designed, the fun factor is gone. And yes you can have all the elements of a game and it still be fun. Just because someone can kill you does not mean its a competition or stressful, you know if Items were not so important as Devs make them death would have less impact from that perspective.
Now my final thoughts, If the above three factors are unacceptable to you, I will simply ask Why are you playing online games? Why are you adding unnecessary stress to your life when you are obviously incapable of dealing with it properly? Do you just want a Chatroom with lots of pretty colors? I am being dead serious here I am not being condencending like I usually am, Why Do you Play Online Games if it Irritates you so badly? Honestly Offline games are far more enjoyable from that perspective and you do not have to worry about people incroaching on your fun.
Except PVP
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
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Still in: A couple Betas
The bottom line is that a "hard core" game has little or nothing to do with "Time sinks" or "Time consuming". Yes they sometimes ARE Time consuming but not because artificial gates (like level quests) have been put in place to hinder advancement speed.
A Hardcore MMORPG, in my opinion, is one that both maximizes roleplay potential as well as maximizing the ideal of Risk -vs- Reward.
In a "Hard Core" MMORPG in order to get the greatest rewards players must be willing to take greater risks. I will be the first to admit that I DO enjoy games that don't require massive effort but it's also nice to have a game where my character has to take extraordinary risks in order to gain extraordinary items.
In a "Hard Core" MMORPG there is a FEAR of dying because it has meaning beyond just "oh man, now I have to run all the way back here from my bind point". It doesn't necessarily mean Permadeath but it does mean that you don't just go attack a mob because you MIGHT be able to take it out. You attack knowing if you die you're going to have a hard time recovering from it.
"Awe man, we just wasted 15 minutes" is not Hard Core. It's a time sink. It's meaningless.
"Awe crap I just lost 50000000 xp" is not Hard Core. It's a time sink, it's counter productive, and it's a negative impact on the game. Death shouldn't slow character advancement unless the character is unprepared to deal with death.
"Awe crap! I have to get back and get my stuff!" Is Hard Core.
"Oh crap! I need to get my stuff before someone else loots it!" Is Hard Core
In the above two examples while, yes, losing one's stuff COULD be detrimental to the character's progression it is only so if the character is not prepared, with alternate equipment sets, etc. In those cases while losing the equipment may be an annoyance and possibly upsetting, it's not preventing them from continuing to advance their character.
XP Loss and XP Debt are stupid concepts designed SOLELY to slow advancement in a game because many Game Developers think keeping players glued to the level grind as long as possible is the only way to keep them interested.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
Hate to break it to you but this is exactly what some of us are ranting about. Debt is not a penalty its a timesink. As for the slower xp gain, Please with the rest exp you get unless you are in an exceptionally stupid group and stay in it which would be exceptionally stupid in itself Debt is a joke. I had a level 50 in EQ2 So I am well familiar with the debt system, I also go 50 before they made it stupidly easy with the bonus exp. Also Debt decreases with time, so you can simply log off to wear it off. But Still it is as mentioned before nothing but a timesink.
WoW went to the other extreme, death has no penalty at all. Oh and if you consider that insignificant amount of coin to repair gear a penalty please walk away from gaming now. So I agree with you Dis_order on this. I simply diagree with the debt system being anything other then a minor inconvience, I never once feared death in EQ2, heck even the numerous death's eaten on Darathar Raids were laughable at best.
Sorry but neither WoW or EQ have any penalty for death that makes one fear death.
No you're right, games ARE stale, it HAS turned into a "who has the cooler armor" contest and I think what causes this is the rarity of drops and having to camp them.
If you spend 2 weeks camping "Gleaming Robe of the Cockjockies" how willing would you be to lose it, especially if you get ganked by someone higher level than you.
The solution IMO is to have mainly crafted weapons and armor being used, if you lose all your stuff you just mine and craft yourself a new one. Its still painful to lose, but its alot more reasonable. This is the system in Eve and I find it enjoyable.
And yeah, I meant Battletech 3056, we used to spend most of our time simming against each other, and real battles were pretty rare, they were heartpumping and adrenaline filled, I still get that feeling in Eve believe it or not.
I'm sorry I dont mean to keep harping about Eve over and over but right now to me Eve is the ONLY good MMORPG in existance, I'm just crazy about it, it has everything I ever wanted. I can't go play anything else right now because its just stale. WoW was fun for about 3 months, but its not a game you play for a lifetime.
Eve isn't a game so much as a living breathing UNIVERSE where ppl from all different countries interact and build empires. It's the perfect game if they can conquer the technical problems of having 12000+ people in 1 game world.
I Have played various MMO since the early days of Ultima online, and I was playing MUDs even before that, and I 100% agree with the OP, and I think there is a large crowd of MMO players out there who really do want this. Whenever you get to the highest levels of an MMO (and I dont just mean Max level) when your raiding the big bosses, and your cruising with your uber guild thats where you find the people that crave the challenges of the Hardcore 90's its not the casual gamers who don't have a lot of time, or want to devote large quantities of time to a game, its the people who dont have a problem sitting down for a 10 hour raid on a lazy sunday afternoon. I think this crowd of people is craving a game that will really challenge them in a whole host of different ways.
A truly great mmo has something for everyone; tradeskills that are tough but not a terrible grind (eq2 im looking at you), a world thats big enough that you can always find a place to go thats not filled with people, but not so empty that there are just huge spaces with nothing to do(shadowbane), Levels need to be hard to come by, but there have to be interesting things to do at ever level the game cant be too easy to level in (DAOC) or just simply impossible to level in (Lineage). There needs to be somesort of balance between these different games, something that everyone can do not just the most "hardcore" of us stuff needs to be easy enough that novice gamers can get into it but hard enough that there are abundant places to go at any level where its tough enough for even the most "hardcore" of us gamers.
UO:pre-Ren I think has the best mix of all these things, when there were lots of things to do for everyone, you could tradeskill, or hunt, or dungeon craw, or pvp, and all of them were viable ways to earn a living and have a fun gaming experience. You made the most money killing people in dungeons but it was also the most dangerous, while harvesting and tradeskilling was the safest but usually had the lowest returns. Games need to have the whole gambit of carebare to hardcore, but its the players that need to decide where they fall in. If you dont wanna get into trouble go mine where the guards patrol, but if your up for a bit more excitement then head out into the wild and find a place a little less crowded, but run the risk of angry critters and dangerous players.
I really dont understand why ever game as of late has taken the Risk outa there games and in the end thats what all of this comes down to. There is no such thing as RISK vs REWARD the motto of all good MMO disigners when there is no real Risk, or the Risk is so trivial that it dosent matter, its the Risk that makes the Reward that much sweeter. Games need to make you feel like your accomplishing something if they really want to hold the intrest of the more Hardcore players
I totally agree ! I've played UO for years and now I can't stand all this new games for more than a couple of months !
The only one I found really channeling was FFXI, but you have to stand a japanese concept game.
Right now I'm playing Eve, spent a week playing it, I still need time to evaluate it
For those of who that may have confused challenging and spending a lot of time as one in the same thing, think of this analogy. If you paint a house both inside and out, that's time consuming not challenging, but if you painted something that requires precision or a element of skill that's challenging, whether it takes the same amount of time to painting a house is irrelevant since anyone can do that but few can do the latter.
Maybe the world has changed to much to bring what is the 90's back, the internet was just starting to reach momentum, now most colleges, schools, workplaces have it.
Let's say there is a difficult encounter in a mmorpg, once someone has solved how to do it, it ends up on a forum then another and within minutes anyone can google it. All that developer's effort has evaporated since it's now common knowledge, what was once a challenge becomes easy or at least significantly easier.
Why don't all of the people who want such a game UNITE and make one? hehe
The real hardcores games exist more then ever.
If you want a game with nice graphics and millions of investments, you need to find a company that will believe there are millions of customers...and there are not millions of ''hardcores''.
Sorry to break your bubbles. You should go check every MUDs, some are pretty much hardcores and just newly released. Oh, you want nice graphics...well, then you have to cope with the others customers and what they want...and they dont want such hardcoreness.
Personnally I always enjoy friendly non-PvP competition, but most folks on the market dont even like this friendly competition and will talk to you about the cooperation aspect of the game. For someone like me competition and cooperation mix extremely well, simply because I value cooperation slightly more then competition...yet, I would not lie...if I can compete, I will, not at the direct expense of cooperation, but if the other players dont like this friendly non-harming competition, then yes, it could harm the cooperation, but the problem is not me, I never stop cooperating and yes, I will gladly group folks that are ahead of me even if it mean I cant catch them...but 1 day they may not log on and I may catch on them!
Pure harsh competition? As far as I am concerned, as long as the game dont exceed 4 hours in complete lifespan, I will enjoy it. If the game have a lifespan of many days, then I wont approve harsh competition in any form.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
First, let me apologize for not having the stomach to get past the second page of this "Hardercore Than Thou" bullshit. Seriously, who would've thought that there are actually people that like to simulate walking for hours on end? Go play Deer Hunter and get it out of your system. Better yet, go hiking!! Maybe then you could sweat some of that hostility out of your fat "hardcore" ass!
If you've ever read any of my other posts, you'll know that I totally fucking HATE the term "Hardcore." It's just some bullshit buzzword that some marketing asshole in the '80s made up to sell worthless crap to stupid teenagers. If you're so "hardcore" about RPGs then why don't you get your so called friends together and LARP with live steel weapons. Hell, I'll pay for the videos of that!
Open PvP? Why? because you feel inadequate in RL and need to greif newbies to feel better about the fact that everyone can kick your ass? If you had any real skill you'd be playing Battlefield 2 or Rome: Total War. However, since you apparently have no reflexes or gift for strategy, you whine about not being able to hide behind some uber character that your guild buddies nursed into the level cap. Yeah, real fuckin' "hardcore." I guess it's just easier to piss people off when they aren't able to grab hold of you and wring your neck. Or when you only have to check the color code of their character.
As a PvP player, I have to say that PvP in an MMORPG is totally pointless. It would be different if there really was some kind of balance that kept the playing field level and promoted sound teamwork and strategy (Guild Wars <cough> <cough>), but most of the time it's all about who has the phattest loot, the highest level and the most gank buddies. Yeah, you're so freakin' "hardcore" it's scary
Winner of most unconstructive post of the year award.
So what was unconstructive about it? Yeah, it was blunt and vulgar but I think I made my point very, very clearly. However, if you didn't see the point I'll be more than happy to put it into even smaller words that you can easily understand.
If you want PvP, Play a game that REQUIRES SKILL!!!
of course, if you really want open PvP, permadeath, full looting and no teleporting...... You could send out a message on your favorite game and start a petition for a "Hardcore" server. Yeah, it's an idea straight out of Diablo 2, but if it's stupid and it works, then........
You ARE niche market, but that's hardly any reason to not give you your own isolated slice of anarchy to play with.
Because computer games use to be made for adults. Now computer games are made for the widest audience which means often they cater to adolescents. They "try" to do just enough to keep adults playing but they really go out of their way to get the younger market.
I have to disagree with that last one. Computer games were originally designed for the widest possible audience. Pong, Pac man, Galga, etc... These games were made for anyone to play and, gollygeegoshwow, they were hard! Zork is another example of a game for all ages (that could read anyway) that was difficult. Let's not blame the kids or the G rating folks. Bad design is the usually the culprit for a poor game. In the current market, popularity is the measure of quality. The school slut was popular, it didn't make her life any better or her character any more respectable. So it is also with games. The lowest common denominator rules. Adapt to it.
Hmm, naw.
Some of us don't want to be spoonfed and don't like being power levelled. I want a hardcore game (which in my opinion just tries to make things as realistic as possible as though we could really be in that world) like old UO that doesn't cater to the thronging masses who just want a free ride to the endgame.
I understand your point however that PvP in an MMORPG is extremely hard to balance. Hey, I played UO so I hear ya. Some people will always have an advantage, like knowing how to make macros perfect and sitting on a certain ledge where you can gank people endlessly and they can't get to you. Not exactly those things but you know what I mean, an unfair advantage.
But that's what makes those experiences so exhilarating! That first time that you actually got the best of that griefing n00b killer! Revenge is sweet, even if he owned you 500 times, as long as you owned him that once, you feel like you climbed mount Everest and had a kegger at the top. I know it sucks when people grief, but without more open style of rules you can't get those great thrills either.
Without the bad, there can be no good.
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Killer 73%
Explorer 60%
Achiever 46%
Socializer 20%
Computer games = PC games, i should have clarified more. Pong, galaga, pac man, donkey kong, etc etc, are arcade games BIG difference. If Zork was released today, who would buy it more, 12 years olds or 30 year olds If you needed more than 1 second to answer that, theirs nothing left to be said.