These ideas are gone with the 90s. People want to evolve the internet not create silly games. Thats why There, Inc made There and Linden Labs made Second Life. Because these ideas are evolving the internet and changing human interaction on the internet.
Virtual Worlds are popping up all over and will be taking the gaming world by storm. We have enough fighting and killing in the world today. We need to think what these games are teaching our family and our kids.
Virtual Worlds are the web in 3D form. Think of building the perfect dream creation. Think of opening your own night club and being the place to be. Virtual Worlds are more then places to chat they are worlds that are digital. They are teaching us lessons and showing us how the human culture is evolving.
I agree with the original poster, for the most part, but things have also changed a lot from back in the day.
Nowadays, you're not playing a game to have fun (in most cases). People are willing to spend their hard-earned dollars for in-game currency. MPKers, botters, hacker, sweatshoppers are present in most if not all MMO's nowadays.
Would open PVP be nice? Play Lineage 2, you tell me if being killed by a family of Korean Botters, and then town guarded for 5 hours is "fun". I'm personally not a carebear, but that sertainly isn't my idea of fun either.
I agree, death penalties should be harsher. However, the biggest problem that i still see in MMO's, is that the Tank's take all the punishment. You don't see horrible healers being penalized, you see good tanks being penalized for their teammate's incompetence.
I disagree on Walks = hardcore. 20 minutes walks don't mean hardcore to me, they mean hit auto-run and go make a sandwich. I have yet to play an MMO with such a fascinating terrain, that I really wanted to explore it (although SWG was close). I think the reason for portals is because people prefer playing their game more than they prefer watching the character's asschecks clinching together as they walk to and from places for 20 minutes at a time.
I personally was looking forward to Imperator, because it seemed like it was going to bring back a system of reward based of risk vs. reward instead of just elite gear, but it was scrapped. A damn shame
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
I agree that there are a lot of problems, but you know why games are heading this direction?
The major market is starting to lean towards mid age gamers instead of teens who have tons of itme on their hands. The older age market means some of the customesr have kids (in fact a lot of them) and they need something they can play while being able to manage their house hold as well (so it can't be too time consuming but enough to string along the player so that it takes months to finish the game for monthly payments sake).
The one game that got it all right was UO back in the day, the combat was very hard and killing a monster like an ancient wyrm was a feat to behold. UO had all the things you mentioned, but you know what ended up happening? Cheats and hacks ruined it because what ends up happening is people develop ways they can hit a win button and basically get all the items you spent a long time collecting from other players... or whatever else.
SUcks to lose all your years belongings in a night. It is just a game, and people don't want that.
Then the next game came out, Shadowbane. Shadowbane had it right in concept... too bad the programmers were morons and made it look like a retard made the game. "Drrrr hehehehehe, the little man fell through the ground and got perma stuck! Me likie that future! We should release to public! TEEHEE!"
Then people would spend months building up cities only to have them bullied down by guilds with simply more player base and money.... Or even worst, a 5 man guild that sets a bane for 5 am or 3 am so you have to sacrifice your real life just to play the damn thing.
Sure, you could counter these problems... but I'm yet to see them countered. Until then... I don't see anything on the horizon filling th eshoes.
Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe First, let me apologize for not having the stomach to get past the second page of this "Hardercore Than Thou" bullshit. Seriously, who would've thought that there are actually people that like to simulate walking for hours on end? Go play Deer Hunter and get it out of your system. Better yet, go hiking!! Maybe then you could sweat some of that hostility out of your fat "hardcore" ass! If you've ever read any of my other posts, you'll know that I totally fucking HATE the term "Hardcore." It's just some bullshit buzzword that some marketing asshole in the '80s made up to sell worthless crap to stupid teenagers. If you're so "hardcore" about RPGs then why don't you get your so called friends together and LARP with live steel weapons. Hell, I'll pay for the videos of that! Open PvP? Why? because you feel inadequate in RL and need to greif newbies to feel better about the fact that everyone can kick your ass? If you had any real skill you'd be playing Battlefield 2 or Rome: Total War. However, since you apparently have no reflexes or gift for strategy, you whine about not being able to hide behind some uber character that your guild buddies nursed into the level cap. Yeah, real fuckin' "hardcore." I guess it's just easier to piss people off when they aren't able to grab hold of you and wring your neck. Or when you only have to check the color code of their character. As a PvP player, I have to say that PvP in an MMORPG is totally pointless. It would be different if there really was some kind of balance that kept the playing field level and promoted sound teamwork and strategy (Guild Wars <cough> <cough>), but most of the time it's all about who has the phattest loot, the highest level and the most gank buddies. Yeah, you're so freakin' "hardcore" it's scary
You should have read on, After the post I made addressing those points it really makes this post look even more retarded. Oh and since I am apparently being insulting this morning you are most definitally not a PVPer, sound more like a Wow pvper..want it balanced in your favor no challenge or your not interested. I do however agree with the walking comment, having to walk for excessive periods of time is stupid and classifies as timesink..oh wait I already addressed that, moot point. Also the fact that you mentioned hardcore and Larp in the same sentence further proves you have not the faintest clue what you are talking about. ( Btw I also play BF2, and as far as hardcore is concerned I assure you unless you are in one of the other top clans I will clobber you in it -=wKa=-Dekoth for clarification since some other asshat copied my name.)
Now concerning more recent comments about SB. After hearing things has changed about a week ago I decided to give SB another try as I had really hoped that game was going to succeed in the beginning, however through beta and early release I found it was not. So I download the trial and here is what I find.
Graphics are as bad as ever, I can live with that however considering how many people can be on your screen at once I think its about right, though it would be nice if they gave a tad more customability for those of us with high end machines.
The Intereface is still atrocious, I cannot fathom how in all of Beta and all this time of release the Intereface is so horribly designed and unusable. This I cannot live with, for crying out loud let me the player decide where I want to put the stupid windows.
You can still wander for literally hours and not see a single damn thing to kill. Why did they keep the cluster spawns I do not know. This is quite honestly the most retarded spawn system I have ever had the misfortune of dealing with.
Leveling is much better I would say that being able to get level 20 in 4 days basically solo and playing fairly casually is a pretty acceptable leveling curve.
Players...I decided to go check out some of the player towns, and wander around for a bit. In three hours of wandering all over the blasted continent I managed to see alot of towns..and not a single person. NOT A SINGLE FREAKING ONE, I mean for crying out loud I was having flashbacks to the AC2 beta.
My conclusion is basically this, If you are already maxed out and in a high end guild its likely a decent game. But for someone coming in its horrible, The world is desolate that is simply the best way I can put it.
I agree. I am sick and tired of the "fast food" paced mmorpg's that are out now. It might feed you for a short time but then you end up wanting more. It doesnt really fulfill you in anyway. I want old UO Days with only Fel or EQ before all the teleports and luclin. BRING BACK THE GOLDEN DAYS..
Well I just started a thread about this same topic before seeing this one here. In any case, here's my two cents....
ABSOLUTELY NOTHING happend to us, it's the game developers that changed! Their eyes became clouded by the prospect of churning out half-assed title after half-assed title to get all of the friends of people like us who heard of online gaming, but were either afraid to try it, or were intimidated by our devotion to spend their hard earned cash on them. Once this caught on, greed took over the industry. They realized they could make just as much money pandering to the casual gamer, while putting a fraction of the effort into the games themselves.
This, my friend, is what's become of our beloved mmorpg's. However, I believe that in our darkest hour, one company will rise up, and reestablish order to the chaos that has plagued us for so long. The almighty game of legend will come and put an end to our suffering, by bringing back that of which we've been deprived for these long years. Some speculate that Vanguard will be this shining game of legend, but it may be too early to tell. However, with the gaming gods as my witness, our day will come, my brethren.....our day will come.
*cough*....yeah so like, yeah.....them's my thoughts n' stuff.
I agree, but WoW really is quite difficult. When half of your party goes AFK mid-battle to go record Dragon Ball Z, things can get a little rough. I think Blizzard took their playerbase into account and adjusted the difficulty accordingly. I know for a fact that I die many, many times every time I have to group with someone else in that game. Half of the players are so inept that I'm sure they'd find a way to get me killed before I even left Iron Forge.
Sarcasm aside, I literally have died more times in WoW due to flat-out retardation than I ever have in any other MMORPG. Harsher penalties in that particular game would make it virtually unplayable, unless you have a consistent, tight-knit group.
You want a hardcore game?? try eve online. Heck most people dont play because the game is too "hardcore"... you spend 2 weeks building and outfitting a ship you want, and get it blown up on the first time you take it out... Thats why i left But if they ever fix the combat, ill most likely return.
Originally posted by daveospice SUcks to lose all your years belongings in a night. It is just a game, and people don't want that.
Thats one of the problems with games today, they are 100% item based you need the 1337 gear or you suck, If games were more about the character you made and less the gear you got this wouldent be a problem at all, and its exactly what the OP is saying, we dont want a "How shiny is your armor?" game we want a game where if you loose all your stuff it sucks and its hard, but its sure not game ending.
the fact that you mentioned hardcore and Larp in the same sentence further proves you have not the faintest clue what you are talking about
I really shouldn't be suprised that you missed the whole point the LARP statement. Let me try to break it down for your remedial consumption. If everyone wants a "hardcore", realistic game then they should get together in the park and go at it with REAL SHARPEND SWORDS AND ARMOUR. You just don't get more real or "hardcore" than that. <sigh> you ned to stop eating paint chips buddy.
Dekoth Writes:
( Btw I also play BF2, and as far as hardcore is concerned I assure you unless you are in one of the other top clans I will clobber you in it -=wKa=-Dekoth for clarification since some other asshat copied my name.)
I usually go ronin. Clans cramp my style and usually don't last for more than a few weeks anyway. The few that do are formidable, but I just don't have time to deal with the "we rock you suck" attitude. However, if I don't miss my guiess, you're trying to challenge me. That's fine by me, but let's keep this one on one. My 12+ years of online FPS experience against your punk ass in UT 2004. Just to make things fair, we'll use a stock map that everyone's familiar with and the Fatboy / Instagib Mutators. Best 2 out of three rounds. 20 frags wins the round. I'm available after 4:00 P.M. Central time for the rest of this week. Let me know where and when.
While I have played BF2, I haven't played it on my own computer. My rig needs a video card and a bigger hard drive before I can run that thing. I'm saving up and I will have it. Or I'll buy the PS2 version whichever happens first. I would invite you to do some Age of Mythology or Rise of Nations, but I doubt you're really up to a battle of wits.
Dekoth writes:
you are most definitally not a PVPer, sound more like a Wow pvper..want it balanced in your favor no challenge or your not interested.
Really? Sounds to me like you have the problem with balance kiddo. And I'm not really talking game balance either. I have nothing against PvP as a game of SKILL. I do have something against PvP as a comparison of stats. Don't get me wrong, I've won my share of deathmatchs and CTF games at massive handicaps both in numbers and ping. I'm good and I can handle that. But when the whole damn contest is just the comparison of numbers with only the slightest element of chance thrown in, it stops being a test of skill and starts to be a pissing contest. It's like measuring your own dick against someone else's. Yeah, there's a definite winner, but it doesn't mean that the winner is any better or worse than the loser.
[quote] Thats one of the problems with games today, they are 100% item based you need the 1337 gear or you suck, If games were more about the character you made and less the gear you got this wouldent be a problem at all, and its exactly what the OP is saying, we dont want a "How shiny is your armor?" game we want a game where if you loose all your stuff it sucks and its hard, but its sure not game ending.[/b][/quote]
A game without the need for camping items.
Then what you have left is Planetside or Eve, my 2 favorite games.
Open pvp and open looting is impractical for traditional sword and sorcery RPG, because the tradition is to find that "special weapon" that defines your character, thats where you get this pansy ass armor beauty contest. If you find that "special weapon" that defines your character, how you gonna feel when a bunch of after school 12 year olds gank you.
Eve alot of time feels like a school yard. I know that between certain hours of the day, it is extremely dangerous to go into lowsec, all the schoolkids are out and they're doing piracy, but what makes it acceptable is the fact that nothing is unique, pretty much everything can be crafted from the raw materials gathered in asteroid fields.
Anyway, for those looking for a "hardcore" game, Lineage and Eve are hardcore open pvp games, so why not just go play that.
The folks I was gaming with in the 90s all have families and RL jobs that they work 50+ hours a week in. Sure we could spend the time it took to be competetive in a game where dying meant losing days of progress when we were undergraduates and in high school, but that's just not the case now.
Harsh PvP in a MMOPRG ultimatley favours those with the most spare time, not those with the most skill. Why? Because they are the ones that have enough spare time to level quickly, and they are the ones that have the spare time to raid or camp for the rarest gear. You can make up for spare time with pure skill in FPS or a strategy game. But in a MMORPG someone higher level than you or with significantly better gear than you will waste you, regardless of how skilled you are. In my estimation, depending on the game skill only gives you somewhere around a 10-20% advantage in a MMORPG. The most skilled level 30 on earth doesn't have a chance of killing a level 60 in any game I've ever played.
I'm not saying I don't think there should be games for players of every type. I think it would be great if some developer would stick their neck out and make something for the "likes getting ganked, likes permadeath" crowd. A diversity of games is good for all gamers.
I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.
UO had it right in the early days. If you died you got looted, but once you where established enough and have a house, you could run to a healer then go to your house and reequip. This system worked fine, because you couldnt just jump right back into the fight like in WoW. But it wasnt such a time sink that it was miserable unless you where a newbie, "then it did suck." But most of the smart newbies stayed close to town to where they could run back, to the guards; Or get a higher level to go out with them to hunt.
The thing I loved about the old days in UO, was how it was based on community. Today's games are leveling rat bashes, then you have games like WoW that you could basically play Single Player.
Are they a trend im seeing here? First you bash Rat A. To get the lewt Bronze Sword for you can bash Rat B... ... Rinse Repeat. And to get to the end for you can group with 6 or so people to hope to win the roll on some Leet Gear. But the formula seems to work because some people find enjoyment in it, and they keep on paying for it. So the game developers are going to keep putting these treadmill games out. And I dont blame em if they are getting big bucks for it, even if I refuse to play them.
Im so through with games, that when in town all you hear in "LEVEL 60 HEALER LOOKING FOR GROUP".
I for one dont enjoy time sinks, and massive leveling. But I do enjoy the thrill Pre Ren UO had in it. Back then you had to make alliance's or it was your ASS. You had to have friends. Yes you could still solo, but you better have your recall regs ready. The best experience ever was when a group of reds came rushing in on you and your friends, and instead of running, you fought back. Sometimes you win sometimes you lost. But damn it felt better than having nothing better to do than watch your experience bar or spend hours trying to find just the right group to get that one piece of armor, any day of the week for this lad
I agree with you Mr. Thread starter. I like playing MMOs with people who at least think like you. I remember spending a full 24 hours when i first started EQ1 and only made level 5! Some crazy stuff. It took me 9 days at about 18 hours a day to make 60 in WoW the second time. I remember dieing in(for those who can remember, stoneburnt mountains in EQ) when i was level 52. I died and ran back to get my body, died again. I died like 8 times and lost well over a levels worth of EXP. Infact I've chain died several times in my gaming life and lost days worth of playtime. But it was always my fault, and having suffered more then most from a brutal death penalty(see FFXI at 10% a death) i like it, i want it like that. I dont like carebear players. If you can't stand the heat then go play mario party.
well, i see this discussion like a bowling game. yes, exactly like a bowling game. you know, here in Spain, there are a lot of new bowlings where they have some cool devices that make impossible for the ball to go into the border rail. i know you know what i am talking about. you ask for them to the people who work there, and they lift up some protections, so that you can never ever fail a shot.
i can imagine all the WOW player loving this system, right? there is no challenge, no competition, no failure, no stress. only success. yes, a highly motivating succes. you can past 200 points every game with no problems.
you know what? call me strange, call me prehistoric, call me stupid, or inadequate for real life. but i prefer the older system. of course, sometimes you hit a big 0 and all your friends laughed at you. but it is far more rewarding, interesting and entertaining.
Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe Dekoth writes: the fact that you mentioned hardcore and Larp in the same sentence further proves you have not the faintest clue what you are talking about I really shouldn't be suprised that you missed the whole point the LARP statement. Let me try to break it down for your remedial consumption. If everyone wants a "hardcore", realistic game then they should get together in the park and go at it with REAL SHARPEND SWORDS AND ARMOUR. You just don't get more real or "hardcore" than that. <sigh> you ned to stop eating paint chips buddy. *yawn* You are once again attempting to compare gaming skills to Reality which has no comparison whatsoever. There is nothing hardcore about LARP unless you are referring to the level of NERD. Dekoth Writes: ( Btw I also play BF2, and as far as hardcore is concerned I assure you unless you are in one of the other top clans I will clobber you in it -=wKa=-Dekoth for clarification since some other asshat copied my name.) I usually go ronin. Clans cramp my style and usually don't last for more than a few weeks anyway. The few that do are formidable, but I just don't have time to deal with the "we rock you suck" attitude. However, if I don't miss my guiess, you're trying to challenge me. That's fine by me, but let's keep this one on one. My 12+ years of online FPS experience against your punk ass in UT 2004. Just to make things fair, we'll use a stock map that everyone's familiar with and the Fatboy / Instagib Mutators. Best 2 out of three rounds. 20 frags wins the round. I'm available after 4:00 P.M. Central time for the rest of this week. Let me know where and when. While I have played BF2, I haven't played it on my own computer. My rig needs a video card and a bigger hard drive before I can run that thing. I'm saving up and I will have it. Or I'll buy the PS2 version whichever happens first. I would invite you to do some Age of Mythology or Rise of Nations, but I doubt you're really up to a battle of wits. UT is your typical teen he who twitches fastest wins game, Sorry I have better things to do then twitch. I require games that require the ability to not only react quickly but actually think in the process. A battle of wits? please you have already contradicted yourself and misinterperted half my post and you think you can out wit me? That is amusing, Son I was playing strategy games before you knew computers existed. Dekoth writes: you are most definitally not a PVPer, sound more like a Wow pvper..want it balanced in your favor no challenge or your not interested. Really? Sounds to me like you have the problem with balance kiddo. And I'm not really talking game balance either. I have nothing against PvP as a game of SKILL. I do have something against PvP as a comparison of stats. Don't get me wrong, I've won my share of deathmatchs and CTF games at massive handicaps both in numbers and ping. I'm good and I can handle that. But when the whole damn contest is just the comparison of numbers with only the slightest element of chance thrown in, it stops being a test of skill and starts to be a pissing contest. It's like measuring your own dick against someone else's. Yeah, there's a definite winner, but it doesn't mean that the winner is any better or worse than the loser. Another point you apparently missed, Now why would I one of the biggest advocate of a MMORPG with PVP that requires SKILL not levels or equipment be interested in a Stats comparison? Please indulge me on how you drew that conclusion I sincerely wish to know. I have a problem with MMORPG's with so called Balanced PVP that are nothing more then a Level/Gear contest then any actual skill. I used wow as a simple example however I can easily name off more. Lets try EQ, DAOC,AC,Shadowbane,Lineage2,WoW and those are simply off the top of my head. Sorry mate you have me confused with an EQ generation PVPer, I am afraid I am a Meridian59/UO Gen one where I believe the skill of the player should be the determing factor not all the pretty trinkets you farmed.
So now that you misread my entire post, and responded in a manner that shows you clearly did not understand what I wrote, how about you read it again and figure out what it is I stated oh so clearly, or just walk away now.
Unfortunately, you've fallen into the niche of gamers known as 'hardcore'. Elite if you want, but most certainly not the average gamer. Games these days now cater to the beck and call of your average gamer, who has time to play a few hours a week and wants to have an enjoyable experience. For a moment, let's be a casual gamer. When you finally find the time to play during the week, maybe on the weekend, you load up the newest MMORPG. You haven't advanced your character very far for the sheer reason that you simply can't find the time to. On your agenda is to go out and try to gain as much experience and money as possible, while you're able. A teleport system allows you to quickly reach your destination, without spending half of your allotted playtime traveling. Once there, you'll start killing things. You're doing well until suddenly an enemy ambushes you as you're preparing for your next fight. The enemy is obviously a much higher level and you don't stand a chance. You die. Crap. Now you've got to get back to the spot you were previously in, and continue to level. Could you imagine if you possibly lost items or experience? You'd be very upset. At least an hour of game time down the toilet because some higher level player decided he'd take a stab at you. Unfortunately, you don't have time to even regain what you've lost. On top of that, if he took something valuable, you won't even be able to regain what you've lost for quite some time.
Well then, sucks to be an average gamer, now doesn't it? Unfortunately for hardcore gamers, casual gamers outnumber us greatly. At the same time, the MMORPG developers love it. A casual gamer may spend three months achieving what a hardcore gamer has achieved in two weeks; which translates into more money. Hardcore gamers will max their level, be fed up with the game, and leave, while the casual gamers barely manage to get past half the level cap. Casual players also aren't too great at playing the games, so as they advance, they'll be set back more, causing them to spend more time doing what you spent less time doing. All the more subscription fees.
Niche games are hard to pitch, as they don't target the general public. If a casual gamer gets on, gets killed, loses many valuable items which sets them back a week, they won't be happy. With that comes a cancellation in the account. Also, those who don't play very often aren't very good at playing, so they're bound to make more devastating mistakes, more often. This also brings upon the lose of accounts, as the player is not having fun, they're just losing the time they spent achieving what was so abruptly taken from them.
Personally, I love open PVP games. Take Lineage II for example. Open PVP style, attack anyone you want, anytime, anywhere. In this game, death held a minute chance of dropping equipment, but it was still there. If someone decided they'd like to go on a killing spree, when they were finally defeated, their chances of dropping items was multiplied significantly, almost assuring the loss of items. For this reason, I PVPed pretty heavily during the first twenty levels of the game. Afterwards, I felt that the progress I made in the game was too valuable to simply be lost in a single fight. I kept myself from fighting in an array of different situations, all of which I most likely would have won. Sure, these situations were great and I loved them, but the costs of losing (and winning for that matter) were too great. The beginning levels were the greatest; those were the ones that got my blood pumping. I'd feel the adrenaline start flowing as a big battle ensued, one where the outcome was clearly uncertain when it began. I made my best efforts at staying alive, smashing my keyboard with commands and movements to avoid the immanent death. Killing someone in that game allowed others to openly engage and kill you with no penalty to them, plus the chance for you to drop something. I lost a few items around levels 10 to 20, but they were replaced with only a few days of play. As I said before, as I started to level further, the amount of time it would take to regain a crucial lost item would almost justify creating an entire new character.
As more and more people decided that they want to become a 'gamer', the games will become more and more 'carebear' oriented. To many it's just simply not fun to lose, whether you're losing progress, money, or time. Unfortunately I do not believe a game that does not appeal to the masses will survive for long, if ever created. Any radical ideas for anything but character progression are shot down on forums, and during beta tests. It's unfortunate, really.
Originally posted by Sinn Unfortunately, you've fallen into the niche of gamers known as 'hardcore'. Elite if you want, but most certainly not the average gamer. Games these days now cater to the beck and call of your average gamer, who has time to play a few hours a week and wants to have an enjoyable experience. For a moment, let's be a casual gamer. When you finally find the time to play during the week, maybe on the weekend, you load up the newest MMORPG. You haven't advanced your character very far for the sheer reason that you simply can't find the time to. On your agenda is to go out and try to gain as much experience and money as possible, while you're able. A teleport system allows you to quickly reach your destination, without spending half of your allotted playtime traveling. Once there, you'll start killing things. You're doing well until suddenly an enemy ambushes you as you're preparing for your next fight. The enemy is obviously a much higher level and you don't stand a chance. You die. Crap. Now you've got to get back to the spot you were previously in, and continue to level. Could you imagine if you possibly lost items or experience? You'd be very upset. At least an hour of game time down the toilet because some higher level player decided he'd take a stab at you. Unfortunately, you don't have time to even regain what you've lost. On top of that, if he took something valuable, you won't even be able to regain what you've lost for quite some time.
Well then, sucks to be an average gamer, now doesn't it? Unfortunately for hardcore gamers, casual gamers outnumber us greatly. At the same time, the MMORPG developers love it. A casual gamer may spend three months achieving what a hardcore gamer has achieved in two weeks; which translates into more money. Hardcore gamers will max their level, be fed up with the game, and leave, while the casual gamers barely manage to get past half the level cap. Casual players also aren't too great at playing the games, so as they advance, they'll be set back more, causing them to spend more time doing what you spent less time doing. All the more subscription fees.
Niche games are hard to pitch, as they don't target the general public. If a casual gamer gets on, gets killed, loses many valuable items which sets them back a week, they won't be happy. With that comes a cancellation in the account. Also, those who don't play very often aren't very good at playing, so they're bound to make more devastating mistakes, more often. This also brings upon the lose of accounts, as the player is not having fun, they're just losing the time they spent achieving what was so abruptly taken from them.
Personally, I love open PVP games. Take Lineage II for example. Open PVP style, attack anyone you want, anytime, anywhere. In this game, death held a minute chance of dropping equipment, but it was still there. If someone decided they'd like to go on a killing spree, when they were finally defeated, their chances of dropping items was multiplied significantly, almost assuring the loss of items. For this reason, I PVPed pretty heavily during the first twenty levels of the game. Afterwards, I felt that the progress I made in the game was too valuable to simply be lost in a single fight. I kept myself from fighting in an array of different situations, all of which I most likely would have won. Sure, these situations were great and I loved them, but the costs of losing (and winning for that matter) were too great. The beginning levels were the greatest; those were the ones that got my blood pumping. I'd feel the adrenaline start flowing as a big battle ensued, one where the outcome was clearly uncertain when it began. I made my best efforts at staying alive, smashing my keyboard with commands and movements to avoid the immanent death. Killing someone in that game allowed others to openly engage and kill you with no penalty to them, plus the chance for you to drop something. I lost a few items around levels 10 to 20, but they were replaced with only a few days of play. As I said before, as I started to level further, the amount of time it would take to regain a crucial lost item would almost justify creating an entire new character.
As more and more people decided that they want to become a 'gamer', the games will become more and more 'carebear' oriented. To many it's just simply not fun to lose, whether you're losing progress, money, or time. Unfortunately I do not believe a game that does not appeal to the masses will survive for long, if ever created. Any radical ideas for anything but character progression are shot down on forums, and during beta tests. It's unfortunate, really.
I disagree completely. Time does not Dictate the type of gamer you are at all. You either have the mentality to be a highly competative/skilled player or you do not it i really is that simple.
Years ago I used to have enough time to easily invest 8+ hours on any given day into gaming, During that time as expected I had no trouble maintaining top ranks on Ladders, maintaining the ability to get into top tier guild, Clans etc depending on the genre of game.
Now I work 40+ hours a week, have a wife, house, and a couple of cars..nothing fancy. As a result my game play is a couple hours per day tops, exceptions being weekends where I can sometimes get as much as 5 hours of solid gaming in depending on errands. However while the amount of time I have to play has Cut substantially, my abilities have not. I still have no trouble maintaining top ranks on ladders, getting into top Tier guilds, clans etc. What then if time is not the factor is the difference between me and another more casual gamer? Is it skill? doubtful, is it contacts? again doubtful as since i play such a diverse group of games I know very few people that play the same selection as me. What then is it? Its Attitude and mentality..I am a hardcore or elite gamer however you choose to label it, because Its the standard I enforce on myself. To me simply playing a game is not enough, I have to maintain a certain standard. these are my own goals, aspirations and standards. To me This is how I define fun. Now someone else may not define that as fun they may define it as work. Its all a matter of perspective, glass is half full glass is half empty your choice. Personally I see utterly no point in playing multiplayer games unless you are going to compete with every fiber of your being. If i wanted a chatroom I would download mIrc. But again perspective nothing more, someone who believes differently is just as right..for them.
The simple difference between players boils down to mentality.
Originally posted by LilFunaho Why is it that at the turn of the century, gamers suddenly disliked the idea of challenge in their games? No more losing items or gold. No more having to walk for 10-20 minutes to get to where you want to go. No more death penalties. No more open-pvp. No more fear of death. Why doesn't every game just come with a godmode and infinite ammo cheat? What the hell happened?
Bottom line. Not everyone needs an online game to give their life meaning, the way you apparently do. I get satisfaction from having a job, from going to the gym and staying in shape, etc. When I sit down to play a game, I want challenge and entertainment and fun, but I don't need drudgery and that is essentially what you are asking for more of.
Before you say "oh look, another insta gratification n00b" ... I was around for the birth of UO. I bought it the week it came out (was the summer I graduated from college) and played for about 2 years. UO was some of the most hardcore, cut-throat PVP there was. You either figured the game out or you got murdered and robbed repeatedly.
I started EQ in beta 4 so I was around for the "old days" when dying meant you might lose your corpse. There were no rez spells early on - no teleports to other areas, you walked everywhere you needed to go. Dying meant that instead of having fun and actually playing the game, you wasted 30 minutes getting your corpse back. It all got old very fast
Looking back at my years of playing, all I can say is that I've experienced the "hard core" 90's and I would never want to go back. We all have our 'war stories' from those days, but I don't miss it one bit. Older games used to essentially stick you in a penalty box for 30 minutes if you died. No gameplay, no fun ... just a shitty corpse run. New games have found ways to penalize players that don't do that and I think its a wonderful thing.
For those of you that need meaning in your life by playing drudge-filled games where it takes 100 hours to level and you lose a week of work from a death - hey, I hope you find what your looking for. In the mean time I'll enjoy myself!
Dekoth, I have to hand it to you. You managed to find the one thing I absolutely hate with every fiber of my being and present yourself as such. Yes, I despise elitists. And you can name any Strategy game you want, I'll enjoy humbling you
If I "misinterpreted" any part of your post is most probably due to your lack of communiction skills. When talking to strangers, you need to be absolutely sure that what you say is what they hear. Of course, you came here to troll, just like me. That being the case, being misunderstood can be fun. Well, for the troll anyway.
When you said "skill based" you seemed to be talking about a system like UO where the character had a looooonnnnnnngggg list of skills with a percentage tacked on. This is still, technically, a stat based system. UO originally got around this by making it harder to gain points in a skill as you got better and making the character lose points on skills they didn't use. This was a mixed bag since most of the play time was spent just grinding this or that skill rather than doing fun stuff like exploring, killing things or socializing. Yeah, you could have someone else train you if you were in a guild, but I think we've already defined that as "forcing people to group" and therefore "bad". Back then, Combat did have some strategy because you had to decide what skills your character was going to specialize in, thus defining how/ if that character fought or provided support. However, it was still possible to get owned "right out of the box" by newbie hunters. At the time, most of the playerbase on UO were people that were getting bored with Quake 2 and Diablo. They brought the Deathmatch mentality with them and it ruined the game for quite a number of people. I eventually quit because I was sick of having to run from town gaurds everytime I killed someone trying to pick my pockets. I also disliked the fact that I had to make a tank character to survive rather than the ranger that I originally set out to make. If i'm playing a game, I want to play it my way not have a wave of punks dictate the way I should play to survive. Long story short, Skill based stats only work if there are restrictions on how many skill stats you can max. Of course, our "hardcore" crowd doesn't really want that. They want the full priviledge to gank anyone, anywhere and anytime they choose no matter how one sided the fight. In fact, they want the fight in their favor. If this wasn't the case, they've be playing Civ3 or BF2.
BTW, if UT is to twitchy for you...... how about America's Army? It's free, it's realistic and it has punkbuster. Like I said, let me know where and when. Just you and me.
Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe Dekoth, I have to hand it to you. You managed to find the one thing I absolutely hate with every fiber of my being and present yourself as such. Yes, I despise elitists. And you can name any Strategy game you want, I'll enjoy humbling you If I "misinterpreted" any part of your post is most probably due to your lack of communiction skills. When talking to strangers, you need to be absolutely sure that what you say is what they hear. Of course, you came here to troll, just like me. That being the case, being misunderstood can be fun. Well, for the troll anyway. When you said "skill based" you seemed to be talking about a system like UO where the character had a looooonnnnnnngggg list of skills with a percentage tacked on. This is still, technically, a stat based system. UO originally got around this by making it harder to gain points in a skill as you got better and making the character lose points on skills they didn't use. This was a mixed bag since most of the play time was spent just grinding this or that skill rather than doing fun stuff like exploring, killing things or socializing. Yeah, you could have someone else train you if you were in a guild, but I think we've already defined that as "forcing people to group" and therefore "bad". Back then, Combat did have some strategy because you had to decide what skills your character was going to specialize in, thus defining how/ if that character fought or provided support. However, it was still possible to get owned "right out of the box" by newbie hunters. At the time, most of the playerbase on UO were people that were getting bored with Quake 2 and Diablo. They brought the Deathmatch mentality with them and it ruined the game for quite a number of people. I eventually quit because I was sick of having to run from town gaurds everytime I killed someone trying to pick my pockets. I also disliked the fact that I had to make a tank character to survive rather than the ranger that I originally set out to make. If i'm playing a game, I want to play it my way not have a wave of punks dictate the way I should play to survive. Long story short, Skill based stats only work if there are restrictions on how many skill stats you can max. Of course, our "hardcore" crowd doesn't really want that. They want the full priviledge to gank anyone, anywhere and anytime they choose no matter how one sided the fight. In fact, they want the fight in their favor. If this wasn't the case, they've be playing Civ3 or BF2. BTW, if UT is to twitchy for you...... how about America's Army? It's free, it's realistic and it has punkbuster. Like I said, let me know where and when. Just you and me.
lol why not meet on the gravel field after school? Seriously, grow up. You should be able to have a conversation like a grown man, even if you aren't grown.
Hardcore games are not about Ganking and griefing: Some people that enjoy that type of game do have honor and a backbone. It's immature people that like to grief, period. Most of those people don't like more hardcore type of games, either. But of course you find them in any game.
They piss me off too, but don't assume because someone wants a hardcore game that they are a griefing bedwetter. Just like I won't assume that because you don't like it, you are still in diapers.
Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe Dekoth, I have to hand it to you. You managed to find the one thing I absolutely hate with every fiber of my being and present yourself as such. Yes, I despise elitists. And you can name any Strategy game you want, I'll enjoy humbling you Glad i could oblige, I have found most gamers who have found they cannot compete in the top levels tend to hate the elitist.If I "misinterpreted" any part of your post is most probably due to your lack of communiction skills. When talking to strangers, you need to be absolutely sure that what you say is what they hear. Of course, you came here to troll, just like me. That being the case, being misunderstood can be fun. Well, for the troll anyway. I do find it highly ironic that you continue to try and impune my communication skills and intellect when you can hardly convey your point without having to back pedel and rephrase your statement. Also the fact that you seem stuck on this insistance that You and I are troll's is once again just as amusing. At least you are upfront and open about it, I do appreciate knowing what I am dealing with, I however am not a troll I am simply sick of casual player's constantly whining and bitching about the disparity between them and the non casual. I believe I notated it quite well when I stated elitism and or the upper crust of gamers are there as a result of mentality, not any percieved skill or time difference. In my opinion anyone who chooses to be can easily become a top notch gamer, it simply boils down to the question of are they mentally equipped for it.When you said "skill based" you seemed to be talking about a system like UO where the character had a looooonnnnnnngggg list of skills with a percentage tacked on. This is still, technically, a stat based system. UO originally got around this by making it harder to gain points in a skill as you got better and making the character lose points on skills they didn't use. This was a mixed bag since most of the play time was spent just grinding this or that skill rather than doing fun stuff like exploring, killing things or socializing. Yeah, you could have someone else train you if you were in a guild, but I think we've already defined that as "forcing people to group" and therefore "bad". Back then, Combat did have some strategy because you had to decide what skills your character was going to specialize in, thus defining how/ if that character fought or provided support. However, it was still possible to get owned "right out of the box" by newbie hunters. At the time, most of the playerbase on UO were people that were getting bored with Quake 2 and Diablo. They brought the Deathmatch mentality with them and it ruined the game for quite a number of people. I eventually quit because I was sick of having to run from town gaurds everytime I killed someone trying to pick my pockets. I also disliked the fact that I had to make a tank character to survive rather than the ranger that I originally set out to make. If i'm playing a game, I want to play it my way not have a wave of punks dictate the way I should play to survive. Long story short, Skill based stats only work if there are restrictions on how many skill stats you can max. Of course, our "hardcore" crowd doesn't really want that. They want the full priviledge to gank anyone, anywhere and anytime they choose no matter how one sided the fight. In fact, they want the fight in their favor. If this wasn't the case, they've be playing Civ3 or BF2. BTW, if UT is to twitchy for you...... how about America's Army? It's free, it's realistic and it has punkbuster. Like I said, let me know where and when. Just you and me.
You know when I first read this I have to admit I nearly laughed. It really shows the obvious difference in game mentality between you and I. I have thought of numerous ways to respond to this rubbish but I decided I would keep it simple so as to not continue this drudgery any further then necessary. When I refer to Skilled PVP you are correct when I refer to UO in regards to MMORPG's, as it being brutally honest is one of the very few that require any. I will assume you got griefed one too many times based on the amount of venom in your post when it comes to the game, but the simple fact you stated you "HAD" to make a tank just to get by lets me know how much skill you simply did not have in PVP. A well played Ranger could have easily taken any other template. I had a mage, a Dexxer ( ala Ranger ) and a thief and personally I had no trouble dealing with the pathetic PVP template most of the ones who lacked real skill used AKA the Tank mage. As far as the deathmatch mentality ruining the game, Honestly true Grief players who played like this were one in 100 they rarely lasted long as most had little skill, ie why they griefed newbies instead of hunting worthy prey. Of course I ran into my fair share of Glorious Lords who griped that I was griefing them as well, so all in all I would say griefing is subjective, personally if you had a title you are qualified as a target. However as a Note I will state simply a skilled newbie had a very good chance of defeating a vet who was being stupid, no level based game can boast this.
However since you seem so shortsighted as to think I am only considering MMORPG's here I will branch out and state I am not. I consider Shooter types of certain kinds in that category as well, however I will point out that Games such as Counterstrike, UT and the like are more twitch based. While I will agree there is a certain amount of skill in that, I feel games like BF1942 and a number of its mods, BF2 and games that are more shooter/simulator are a better testament to skill.
As to this pedantic challenge you keep issuing forth in a vain attempt to prove yourself, I am honestly not interested. I simply have better things to do with my time, However if you insist in persuing this for reason's beyond logical comprehension how about we do something that is less biased toward twitch and something a little more rounded. You already shot down BF2 due to computer specs, so in the interest of maintaining a familiar ground to both I would suggest Desert combat the Bf1942 mod, since its as close to a cross as you will find. However I will not simply fight you on the ground, I never was an infantry guy, never claimed to be. I will in a variety including air, and I will even toss this your way I havent played in at least 4 months.
Comments
These ideas are gone with the 90s. People want to evolve the internet not create silly games. Thats why There, Inc made There and Linden Labs made Second Life. Because these ideas are evolving the internet and changing human interaction on the internet.
Virtual Worlds are popping up all over and will be taking the gaming world by storm. We have enough fighting and killing in the world today. We need to think what these games are teaching our family and our kids.
Virtual Worlds are the web in 3D form. Think of building the perfect dream creation. Think of opening your own night club and being the place to be. Virtual Worlds are more then places to chat they are worlds that are digital. They are teaching us lessons and showing us how the human culture is evolving.
There
The only limitation in There is your own imagination!
I agree with the original poster, for the most part, but things have also changed a lot from back in the day.
Nowadays, you're not playing a game to have fun (in most cases). People are willing to spend their hard-earned dollars for in-game currency. MPKers, botters, hacker, sweatshoppers are present in most if not all MMO's nowadays.
Would open PVP be nice? Play Lineage 2, you tell me if being killed by a family of Korean Botters, and then town guarded for 5 hours is "fun". I'm personally not a carebear, but that sertainly isn't my idea of fun either.
I agree, death penalties should be harsher. However, the biggest problem that i still see in MMO's, is that the Tank's take all the punishment. You don't see horrible healers being penalized, you see good tanks being penalized for their teammate's incompetence.
I disagree on Walks = hardcore. 20 minutes walks don't mean hardcore to me, they mean hit auto-run and go make a sandwich. I have yet to play an MMO with such a fascinating terrain, that I really wanted to explore it (although SWG was close). I think the reason for portals is because people prefer playing their game more than they prefer watching the character's asschecks clinching together as they walk to and from places for 20 minutes at a time.
I personally was looking forward to Imperator, because it seemed like it was going to bring back a system of reward based of risk vs. reward instead of just elite gear, but it was scrapped. A damn shame
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
I agree that there are a lot of problems, but you know why games are heading this direction?
The major market is starting to lean towards mid age gamers instead of teens who have tons of itme on their hands. The older age market means some of the customesr have kids (in fact a lot of them) and they need something they can play while being able to manage their house hold as well (so it can't be too time consuming but enough to string along the player so that it takes months to finish the game for monthly payments sake).
The one game that got it all right was UO back in the day, the combat was very hard and killing a monster like an ancient wyrm was a feat to behold. UO had all the things you mentioned, but you know what ended up happening? Cheats and hacks ruined it because what ends up happening is people develop ways they can hit a win button and basically get all the items you spent a long time collecting from other players... or whatever else.
SUcks to lose all your years belongings in a night. It is just a game, and people don't want that.
Then the next game came out, Shadowbane. Shadowbane had it right in concept... too bad the programmers were morons and made it look like a retard made the game. "Drrrr hehehehehe, the little man fell through the ground and got perma stuck! Me likie that future! We should release to public! TEEHEE!"
Then people would spend months building up cities only to have them bullied down by guilds with simply more player base and money.... Or even worst, a 5 man guild that sets a bane for 5 am or 3 am so you have to sacrifice your real life just to play the damn thing.
Sure, you could counter these problems... but I'm yet to see them countered. Until then... I don't see anything on the horizon filling th eshoes.
You should have read on, After the post I made addressing those points it really makes this post look even more retarded. Oh and since I am apparently being insulting this morning you are most definitally not a PVPer, sound more like a Wow pvper..want it balanced in your favor no challenge or your not interested. I do however agree with the walking comment, having to walk for excessive periods of time is stupid and classifies as timesink..oh wait I already addressed that, moot point. Also the fact that you mentioned hardcore and Larp in the same sentence further proves you have not the faintest clue what you are talking about. ( Btw I also play BF2, and as far as hardcore is concerned I assure you unless you are in one of the other top clans I will clobber you in it -=wKa=-Dekoth for clarification since some other asshat copied my name.)
Now concerning more recent comments about SB. After hearing things has changed about a week ago I decided to give SB another try as I had really hoped that game was going to succeed in the beginning, however through beta and early release I found it was not. So I download the trial and here is what I find.
Graphics are as bad as ever, I can live with that however considering how many people can be on your screen at once I think its about right, though it would be nice if they gave a tad more customability for those of us with high end machines.
The Intereface is still atrocious, I cannot fathom how in all of Beta and all this time of release the Intereface is so horribly designed and unusable. This I cannot live with, for crying out loud let me the player decide where I want to put the stupid windows.
You can still wander for literally hours and not see a single damn thing to kill. Why did they keep the cluster spawns I do not know. This is quite honestly the most retarded spawn system I have ever had the misfortune of dealing with.
Leveling is much better I would say that being able to get level 20 in 4 days basically solo and playing fairly casually is a pretty acceptable leveling curve.
Players...I decided to go check out some of the player towns, and wander around for a bit. In three hours of wandering all over the blasted continent I managed to see alot of towns..and not a single person. NOT A SINGLE FREAKING ONE, I mean for crying out loud I was having flashbacks to the AC2 beta.
My conclusion is basically this, If you are already maxed out and in a high end guild its likely a decent game. But for someone coming in its horrible, The world is desolate that is simply the best way I can put it.
I agree. I am sick and tired of the "fast food" paced mmorpg's that are out now. It might feed you for a short time but then you end up wanting more. It doesnt really fulfill you in anyway. I want old UO Days with only Fel or EQ before all the teleports and luclin. BRING BACK THE GOLDEN DAYS..
Well I just started a thread about this same topic before seeing this
one here. In any case, here's my two cents....
ABSOLUTELY NOTHING happend to us, it's the game developers that
changed! Their eyes became clouded by the prospect of churning out
half-assed title after half-assed title to get all of the friends of
people like us who heard of online gaming, but were either afraid to try
it, or were intimidated by our devotion to spend their hard earned cash
on them. Once this caught on, greed took over the industry. They
realized they could make just as much money pandering to the casual
gamer, while putting a fraction of the effort into the games themselves.
This, my friend, is what's become of our beloved mmorpg's. However, I
believe that in our darkest hour, one company will rise up, and
reestablish order to the chaos that has plagued us for so long. The
almighty game of legend will come and put an end to our suffering, by
bringing back that of which we've been deprived for these long years.
Some speculate that Vanguard will be this shining game of legend, but it
may be too early to tell. However, with the gaming gods as my witness,
our day will come, my brethren.....our day will come.
*cough*....yeah so like, yeah.....them's my thoughts n' stuff.
try playing some of the old nes games from the 80s
I agree, but WoW really is quite difficult. When half of your party goes AFK mid-battle to go record Dragon Ball Z, things can get a little rough. I think Blizzard took their playerbase into account and adjusted the difficulty accordingly. I know for a fact that I die many, many times every time I have to group with someone else in that game. Half of the players are so inept that I'm sure they'd find a way to get me killed before I even left Iron Forge.
Sarcasm aside, I literally have died more times in WoW due to flat-out retardation than I ever have in any other MMORPG. Harsher penalties in that particular game would make it virtually unplayable, unless you have a consistent, tight-knit group.
You want a hardcore game?? try eve online. Heck most people dont play because the game is too "hardcore"... you spend 2 weeks building and outfitting a ship you want, and get it blown up on the first time you take it out... Thats why i left
But if they ever fix the combat, ill most likely return.
Me, im playin UO and loving it
Thats one of the problems with games today, they are 100% item based you need the 1337 gear or you suck, If games were more about the character you made and less the gear you got this wouldent be a problem at all, and its exactly what the OP is saying, we dont want a "How shiny is your armor?" game we want a game where if you loose all your stuff it sucks and its hard, but its sure not game ending.
Dekoth writes:
the fact that you mentioned hardcore and Larp in the same sentence further proves you have not the faintest clue what you are talking about
I really shouldn't be suprised that you missed the whole point the LARP statement. Let me try to break it down for your remedial consumption. If everyone wants a "hardcore", realistic game then they should get together in the park and go at it with REAL SHARPEND SWORDS AND ARMOUR. You just don't get more real or "hardcore" than that. <sigh> you ned to stop eating paint chips buddy.
Dekoth Writes:
( Btw I also play BF2, and as far as hardcore is concerned I assure you unless you are in one of the other top clans I will clobber you in it -=wKa=-Dekoth for clarification since some other asshat copied my name.)
I usually go ronin. Clans cramp my style and usually don't last for more than a few weeks anyway. The few that do are formidable, but I just don't have time to deal with the "we rock you suck" attitude. However, if I don't miss my guiess, you're trying to challenge me. That's fine by me, but let's keep this one on one. My 12+ years of online FPS experience against your punk ass in UT 2004. Just to make things fair, we'll use a stock map that everyone's familiar with and the Fatboy / Instagib Mutators. Best 2 out of three rounds. 20 frags wins the round. I'm available after 4:00 P.M. Central time for the rest of this week. Let me know where and when.
While I have played BF2, I haven't played it on my own computer. My rig needs a video card and a bigger hard drive before I can run that thing. I'm saving up and I will have it. Or I'll buy the PS2 version whichever happens first. I would invite you to do some Age of Mythology or Rise of Nations, but I doubt you're really up to a battle of wits.
Dekoth writes:
you are most definitally not a PVPer, sound more like a Wow pvper..want it balanced in your favor no challenge or your not interested.
Really? Sounds to me like you have the problem with balance kiddo. And I'm not really talking game balance either. I have nothing against PvP as a game of SKILL. I do have something against PvP as a comparison of stats. Don't get me wrong, I've won my share of deathmatchs and CTF games at massive handicaps both in numbers and ping. I'm good and I can handle that. But when the whole damn contest is just the comparison of numbers with only the slightest element of chance thrown in, it stops being a test of skill and starts to be a pissing contest. It's like measuring your own dick against someone else's. Yeah, there's a definite winner, but it doesn't mean that the winner is any better or worse than the loser.
[quote]
Thats one of the problems with games today, they are 100% item based you need the 1337 gear or you suck, If games were more about the character you made and less the gear you got this wouldent be a problem at all, and its exactly what the OP is saying, we dont want a "How shiny is your armor?" game we want a game where if you loose all your stuff it sucks and its hard, but its sure not game ending.[/b][/quote]
A game without the need for camping items.
Then what you have left is Planetside or Eve, my 2 favorite games.
Open pvp and open looting is impractical for traditional sword and sorcery RPG, because the tradition is to find that "special weapon" that defines your character, thats where you get this pansy ass armor beauty contest. If you find that "special weapon" that defines your character, how you gonna feel when a bunch of after school 12 year olds gank you.
Eve alot of time feels like a school yard. I know that between certain hours of the day, it is extremely dangerous to go into lowsec, all the schoolkids are out and they're doing piracy, but what makes it acceptable is the fact that nothing is unique, pretty much everything can be crafted from the raw materials gathered in asteroid fields.
Anyway, for those looking for a "hardcore" game, Lineage and Eve are hardcore open pvp games, so why not just go play that.
The folks I was gaming with in the 90s all have families and RL jobs that they work 50+ hours a week in. Sure we could spend the time it took to be competetive in a game where dying meant losing days of progress when we were undergraduates and in high school, but that's just not the case now.
Harsh PvP in a MMOPRG ultimatley favours those with the most spare time, not those with the most skill. Why? Because they are the ones that have enough spare time to level quickly, and they are the ones that have the spare time to raid or camp for the rarest gear. You can make up for spare time with pure skill in FPS or a strategy game. But in a MMORPG someone higher level than you or with significantly better gear than you will waste you, regardless of how skilled you are. In my estimation, depending on the game skill only gives you somewhere around a 10-20% advantage in a MMORPG. The most skilled level 30 on earth doesn't have a chance of killing a level 60 in any game I've ever played.
I'm not saying I don't think there should be games for players of every type. I think it would be great if some developer would stick their neck out and make something for the "likes getting ganked, likes permadeath" crowd. A diversity of games is good for all gamers.
I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.
UO had it right in the early days. If you died you got looted, but once you where established enough and have a house, you could run to a healer then go to your house and reequip. This system worked fine, because you couldnt just jump right back into the fight like in WoW. But it wasnt such a time sink that it was miserable unless you where a newbie, "then it did suck." But most of the smart newbies stayed close to town to where they could run back, to the guards; Or get a higher level to go out with them to hunt.
The thing I loved about the old days in UO, was how it was based on community. Today's games are leveling rat bashes, then you have games like WoW that you could basically play Single Player.
Are they a trend im seeing here? First you bash Rat A. To get the lewt Bronze Sword for you can bash Rat B... ... Rinse Repeat. And to get to the end for you can group with 6 or so people to hope to win the roll on some Leet Gear. But the formula seems to work because some people find enjoyment in it, and they keep on paying for it. So the game developers are going to keep putting these treadmill games out. And I dont blame em if they are getting big bucks for it, even if I refuse to play them.
Im so through with games, that when in town all you hear in "LEVEL 60 HEALER LOOKING FOR GROUP".
I for one dont enjoy time sinks, and massive leveling. But I do enjoy the thrill Pre Ren UO had in it. Back then you had to make alliance's or it was your ASS. You had to have friends. Yes you could still solo, but you better have your recall regs ready. The best experience ever was when a group of reds came rushing in on you and your friends, and instead of running, you fought back. Sometimes you win sometimes you lost. But damn it felt better than having nothing better to do than watch your experience bar or spend hours trying to find just the right group to get that one piece of armor, any day of the week for this lad
well, i see this discussion like a bowling game. yes, exactly like a bowling game. you know, here in Spain, there are a lot of new bowlings where they have some cool devices that make impossible for the ball to go into the border rail. i know you know what i am talking about. you ask for them to the people who work there, and they lift up some protections, so that you can never ever fail a shot.
i can imagine all the WOW player loving this system, right? there is no challenge, no competition, no failure, no stress. only success. yes, a highly motivating succes. you can past 200 points every game with no problems.
you know what? call me strange, call me prehistoric, call me stupid, or inadequate for real life. but i prefer the older system. of course, sometimes you hit a big 0 and all your friends laughed at you. but it is far more rewarding, interesting and entertaining.
Well then, sucks to be an average gamer, now doesn't it? Unfortunately for hardcore gamers, casual gamers outnumber us greatly. At the same time, the MMORPG developers love it. A casual gamer may spend three months achieving what a hardcore gamer has achieved in two weeks; which translates into more money. Hardcore gamers will max their level, be fed up with the game, and leave, while the casual gamers barely manage to get past half the level cap. Casual players also aren't too great at playing the games, so as they advance, they'll be set back more, causing them to spend more time doing what you spent less time doing. All the more subscription fees.
Niche games are hard to pitch, as they don't target the general public. If a casual gamer gets on, gets killed, loses many valuable items which sets them back a week, they won't be happy. With that comes a cancellation in the account. Also, those who don't play very often aren't very good at playing, so they're bound to make more devastating mistakes, more often. This also brings upon the lose of accounts, as the player is not having fun, they're just losing the time they spent achieving what was so abruptly taken from them.
Personally, I love open PVP games. Take Lineage II for example. Open PVP style, attack anyone you want, anytime, anywhere. In this game, death held a minute chance of dropping equipment, but it was still there. If someone decided they'd like to go on a killing spree, when they were finally defeated, their chances of dropping items was multiplied significantly, almost assuring the loss of items. For this reason, I PVPed pretty heavily during the first twenty levels of the game. Afterwards, I felt that the progress I made in the game was too valuable to simply be lost in a single fight. I kept myself from fighting in an array of different situations, all of which I most likely would have won. Sure, these situations were great and I loved them, but the costs of losing (and winning for that matter) were too great. The beginning levels were the greatest; those were the ones that got my blood pumping. I'd feel the adrenaline start flowing as a big battle ensued, one where the outcome was clearly uncertain when it began. I made my best efforts at staying alive, smashing my keyboard with commands and movements to avoid the immanent death. Killing someone in that game allowed others to openly engage and kill you with no penalty to them, plus the chance for you to drop something. I lost a few items around levels 10 to 20, but they were replaced with only a few days of play. As I said before, as I started to level further, the amount of time it would take to regain a crucial lost item would almost justify creating an entire new character.
As more and more people decided that they want to become a 'gamer', the games will become more and more 'carebear' oriented. To many it's just simply not fun to lose, whether you're losing progress, money, or time. Unfortunately I do not believe a game that does not appeal to the masses will survive for long, if ever created. Any radical ideas for anything but character progression are shot down on forums, and during beta tests. It's unfortunate, really.
People are carebears.
I disagree completely. Time does not Dictate the type of gamer you are at all. You either have the mentality to be a highly competative/skilled player or you do not it i really is that simple.
Years ago I used to have enough time to easily invest 8+ hours on any given day into gaming, During that time as expected I had no trouble maintaining top ranks on Ladders, maintaining the ability to get into top tier guild, Clans etc depending on the genre of game.
Now I work 40+ hours a week, have a wife, house, and a couple of cars..nothing fancy. As a result my game play is a couple hours per day tops, exceptions being weekends where I can sometimes get as much as 5 hours of solid gaming in depending on errands. However while the amount of time I have to play has Cut substantially, my abilities have not. I still have no trouble maintaining top ranks on ladders, getting into top Tier guilds, clans etc. What then if time is not the factor is the difference between me and another more casual gamer? Is it skill? doubtful, is it contacts? again doubtful as since i play such a diverse group of games I know very few people that play the same selection as me. What then is it? Its Attitude and mentality..I am a hardcore or elite gamer however you choose to label it, because Its the standard I enforce on myself. To me simply playing a game is not enough, I have to maintain a certain standard. these are my own goals, aspirations and standards. To me This is how I define fun. Now someone else may not define that as fun they may define it as work. Its all a matter of perspective, glass is half full glass is half empty your choice. Personally I see utterly no point in playing multiplayer games unless you are going to compete with every fiber of your being. If i wanted a chatroom I would download mIrc. But again perspective nothing more, someone who believes differently is just as right..for them.
The simple difference between players boils down to mentality.
Bottom line. Not everyone needs an online game to give their life meaning, the way you apparently do. I get satisfaction from having a job, from going to the gym and staying in shape, etc.
When I sit down to play a game, I want challenge and entertainment and fun, but I don't need drudgery and that is essentially what you are asking for more of.
Before you say "oh look, another insta gratification n00b" ... I was around for the birth of UO. I bought it the week it came out (was the summer I graduated from college) and played for about 2 years. UO was some of the most hardcore, cut-throat PVP there was. You either figured the game out or you got murdered and robbed repeatedly.
I started EQ in beta 4 so I was around for the "old days" when dying meant you might lose your corpse. There were no rez spells early on - no teleports to other areas, you walked everywhere you needed to go. Dying meant that instead of having fun and actually playing the game, you wasted 30 minutes getting your corpse back. It all got old very fast
Looking back at my years of playing, all I can say is that I've experienced the "hard core" 90's and I would never want to go back. We all have our 'war stories' from those days, but I don't miss it one bit. Older games used to essentially stick you in a penalty box for 30 minutes if you died. No gameplay, no fun ... just a shitty corpse run. New games have found ways to penalize players that don't do that and I think its a wonderful thing.
For those of you that need meaning in your life by playing drudge-filled games where it takes 100 hours to level and you lose a week of work from a death - hey, I hope you find what your looking for. In the mean time I'll enjoy myself!
Dekoth, I have to hand it to you. You managed to find the one thing I absolutely hate with every fiber of my being and present yourself as such. Yes, I despise elitists. And you can name any Strategy game you want, I'll enjoy humbling you
If I "misinterpreted" any part of your post is most probably due to your lack of communiction skills. When talking to strangers, you need to be absolutely sure that what you say is what they hear. Of course, you came here to troll, just like me. That being the case, being misunderstood can be fun. Well, for the troll anyway.
When you said "skill based" you seemed to be talking about a system like UO where the character had a looooonnnnnnngggg list of skills with a percentage tacked on. This is still, technically, a stat based system. UO originally got around this by making it harder to gain points in a skill as you got better and making the character lose points on skills they didn't use. This was a mixed bag since most of the play time was spent just grinding this or that skill rather than doing fun stuff like exploring, killing things or socializing. Yeah, you could have someone else train you if you were in a guild, but I think we've already defined that as "forcing people to group" and therefore "bad". Back then, Combat did have some strategy because you had to decide what skills your character was going to specialize in, thus defining how/ if that character fought or provided support. However, it was still possible to get owned "right out of the box" by newbie hunters. At the time, most of the playerbase on UO were people that were getting bored with Quake 2 and Diablo. They brought the Deathmatch mentality with them and it ruined the game for quite a number of people. I eventually quit because I was sick of having to run from town gaurds everytime I killed someone trying to pick my pockets. I also disliked the fact that I had to make a tank character to survive rather than the ranger that I originally set out to make. If i'm playing a game, I want to play it my way not have a wave of punks dictate the way I should play to survive. Long story short, Skill based stats only work if there are restrictions on how many skill stats you can max. Of course, our "hardcore" crowd doesn't really want that. They want the full priviledge to gank anyone, anywhere and anytime they choose no matter how one sided the fight. In fact, they want the fight in their favor. If this wasn't the case, they've be playing Civ3 or BF2.
BTW, if UT is to twitchy for you...... how about America's Army? It's free, it's realistic and it has punkbuster. Like I said, let me know where and when. Just you and me.
lol why not meet on the gravel field after school? Seriously, grow up. You should be able to have a conversation like a grown man, even if you aren't grown.
Hardcore games are not about Ganking and griefing: Some people that enjoy that type of game do have honor and a backbone. It's immature people that like to grief, period. Most of those people don't like more hardcore type of games, either. But of course you find them in any game.
They piss me off too, but don't assume because someone wants a hardcore game that they are a griefing bedwetter. Just like I won't assume that because you don't like it, you are still in diapers.
You know when I first read this I have to admit I nearly laughed. It really shows the obvious difference in game mentality between you and I. I have thought of numerous ways to respond to this rubbish but I decided I would keep it simple so as to not continue this drudgery any further then necessary. When I refer to Skilled PVP you are correct when I refer to UO in regards to MMORPG's, as it being brutally honest is one of the very few that require any. I will assume you got griefed one too many times based on the amount of venom in your post when it comes to the game, but the simple fact you stated you "HAD" to make a tank just to get by lets me know how much skill you simply did not have in PVP. A well played Ranger could have easily taken any other template. I had a mage, a Dexxer ( ala Ranger ) and a thief and personally I had no trouble dealing with the pathetic PVP template most of the ones who lacked real skill used AKA the Tank mage. As far as the deathmatch mentality ruining the game, Honestly true Grief players who played like this were one in 100 they rarely lasted long as most had little skill, ie why they griefed newbies instead of hunting worthy prey. Of course I ran into my fair share of Glorious Lords who griped that I was griefing them as well, so all in all I would say griefing is subjective, personally if you had a title you are qualified as a target. However as a Note I will state simply a skilled newbie had a very good chance of defeating a vet who was being stupid, no level based game can boast this.
However since you seem so shortsighted as to think I am only considering MMORPG's here I will branch out and state I am not. I consider Shooter types of certain kinds in that category as well, however I will point out that Games such as Counterstrike, UT and the like are more twitch based. While I will agree there is a certain amount of skill in that, I feel games like BF1942 and a number of its mods, BF2 and games that are more shooter/simulator are a better testament to skill.
As to this pedantic challenge you keep issuing forth in a vain attempt to prove yourself, I am honestly not interested. I simply have better things to do with my time, However if you insist in persuing this for reason's beyond logical comprehension how about we do something that is less biased toward twitch and something a little more rounded. You already shot down BF2 due to computer specs, so in the interest of maintaining a familiar ground to both I would suggest Desert combat the Bf1942 mod, since its as close to a cross as you will find. However I will not simply fight you on the ground, I never was an infantry guy, never claimed to be. I will in a variety including air, and I will even toss this your way I havent played in at least 4 months.
To the OP.....
/BUMP
"My Fantasy is having two men at once...
One Cooking and One Cleaning!"
---------------------------
"A good man can make you feel sexy,
strong and able to take on the whole world...
oh sorry...that's wine...wine does that..."