I havent played L2 for long, but I have seen that kind of behavior in really all players I met.
If you havent played it long then thats why, I played the game for 8-9 years and with this latest expansion/patch they ruined the pk system as well as some other things we vets liked. Before it wasnt such a big deal to pk someone if he took your spot, now he will simply not flag because the guy who pks is the one who loses most. Broken system.
Eve is still paying the bills btw. Death penalty is at the bottom of the list of complaints. Just like any game.
EVE has a great solution to death, though. You can play EVE with ZERO risk for death, or you can keep taking high risks and get, in the case of success, high rewards.
Eve is still paying the bills btw. Death penalty is at the bottom of the list of complaints. Just like any game.
EVE has a great solution to death, though. You can play EVE with ZERO risk for death, or you can keep taking high risks and get, in the case of success, high rewards.
It's not really a great solution. It's the virtual world (galaxy) the game is in. The DP makes total sense. It's accepted as the rules and it applies to everyone. It's not some amazing fix, it's immersion. It's common sense.
The same can be applied to any mmo in development.
Well maybe this isn’t the best idea and I’m almost certain someone has proposed this before but I was thinking of it last night and had to whip off a post about it.
So When it comes to death penalty I have always thought mainstreams MMO’s offer far too little in the way of any meaningful penalty (e.g. Wow, TOR, AoC, WAR etc.). On the other hand “full looting” in some of the more “hardcore” MMO’s is fairly extreme and often leads to people never wearing there good gear. In my opinion full looting often has a negative effect on how people play, although this certainly depends on the game and is totally debatable.
To my knowledge there isn’t many MMO’s that offer much in-between the above 2 models (although I very well could be wrong).
Anyways my idea is that each class in a game would have 1 or 2 major buffs that could only be placed on themselves. Theses Buffs would be enough that it would fundamentally effect your play if you do not have them on.
Nothing new so far right? The catch would be you would only receive (e.g 6,10 or 15) Buffs over a 24 hour period. Meaning that if you died X number of times you would be kind of useless in competitive PvP or PvE.
This in my mind would make Raiding Deaths and Open world PvP meaningful enough that it would sting to die but not to the point where you quit the game and throw your computer out the window.
Obviously this system could be exploited and you would need to have safe guard to protect lower level or less powerful avatars. Overall though I think (if done right) this type of system could be spectacular.
What do you guys think?
umm no!
The best death penalty is one where you are sent to retrieve all your inventory and suffer a small XP reduction over the course of 10-15 mins. FFA looting is a niche and is stupid, and WoW style Themepark deaths are nothing short of a free trip back to town. Having a Death penalty similar to DAoC with a bit of Shadowbane/Asherons Call is the best IMO.
Playing: GW2 Waiting on: TESO Next Flop: Planetside 2 Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
Why are threads like this always so painfully stupid ?
The point of having a death penalty is to give death a meaning. It is NOT to discourage players from taking any risks, ever.
For example, Lineage 2 has an extremely stupid death penalty. Dying once means you have to literally kill HUNDREDS of mobs before you have regained your loss. Unsurprisingly, taking risks is very unpopular in L2.
I like the way the death penalty was done in Vanguard. You die once, you get a debuff. It lasts 5 minutes. You die in that time again, you get a greater debuff. After doing this 5 times in a row, you are reduced to nothingness. But if you wait those 5 minutes, the debuff is gone. Its a relevant penalty, but its not so strong that you never take risks. You can even try instantly again with a small debuff, but if you fail again, you better take a small pause.
Sadly they now want to remove that. Typical for SOE. All they can think of is making games stupid easy. For THAT will TOTALLY attract new players, grrrrrmpft !
The problem is that the 5 minute penalty is adequate only for people of your playstyle and expectations, it is completely inadequate for people WE actually want to pk less and/or think about attacking or not.
A high level "disruptive element" will have to always consider the penalty going to pk lowbies, because there is always the chance that he will be zerged to death, without a permanent penalty he has no reason to not do it over and over again.
A adequate system has to be tuned right (in l2 you have resurrects offering a part lost exp back, blessed rez scrolls, clan wars offering a lower penalty to participants...), but that does not mean that it should only fit the expectations of people which are not likely to be its "victims" often.
As for PvE, you can take plenty of risks on low levels, where the penalty is low, in l2 specifically the game does not (or didnt, when i played it) offer significantly different pve play style while leveling and at maxlevel, in the end its about learning the game system in the first place.
You die in world pvp, you are forced into another realm where you are required to farm up a set amount of resources for the other player, or their faction, or something.
Benefits for the victor in extra resources.
The loser wouldn't have to pay or lose anything but time. Although they are forced to assist the opposing faction before being allowed back into the main game. It may reduce corpse camping too since the loser would be out of that world for a bit.
This could actually work as long as the player could also benefit at the same time. Like still getting xp/loot/etc.
It would be sorta like being forced to run a dungeon whether you wanted to or not. Maybe you would get half the xp/loot than if you were playing normaly.
Or instead of porting the player to a different realm, they could just get an xp and lower chance of item drop debuff for awhile. Although I kinda like the idea of the player being thrown into a dungeon, having to fight their way out.
Why would raid deaths need to be more "meaningful"?
Isn't it enough to fail to receive a reward because you died? (or rather: because one of your teammates got the raid wiped...)
Excessive penalty adds nothing to games.
Make a game nice and challenging with the death penalty being a simple, instant reset*, and you'll have the best death penalty possible. (* and in the case of dungeons/raids, this reset could potentially take you back several mob packs) The result is a death penalty focused on gameplay rather than non-gameplay.
Because (surprise!) players play games for gameplay, not penalty.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I think when you die you should die for good and have to reroll. Would make the game meaningful and challenging. Granted, many would quit but I'd stay. That's like the one feature that would keep me playing an MMO.
I think when you die you should die for good and have to reroll. Would make the game meaningful and challenging. Granted, many would quit but I'd stay. That's like the one feature that would keep me playing an MMO.
It's astonishingly easy to do this yourself. In about every MMO you play, there's a "delete" button on the character creation screen. Use it and make ANY MMO the MMO of your dreams.
When you decided to be a jerk in Ultima Online then got killed. Yet kept following people around OooOoooo... even tho they probably didn't have spirit speak... just trying to be even more of a jerk.
So we open a moongate and say "let's go hunt" ... you follow us through... we dispel the moongate and recall away. Leaving you in a specific part of the map that you can't walk out of. You could walk in (kind of drop down some hills) but the only way back out .. was recall or gate ... you can't recall because you're dead and well we dispelled the gate for obvious reasons.
Best penalty ever... with built in behaviour modification... to possibly make you less prone to suffer the penalty again.
I think when you die you should die for good and have to reroll. Would make the game meaningful and challenging. Granted, many would quit but I'd stay. That's like the one feature that would keep me playing an MMO.
It's astonishingly easy to do this yourself. In about every MMO you play, there's a "delete" button on the character creation screen. Use it and make ANY MMO the MMO of your dreams.
Yeah, but it's only good if it applies to everyone. If it applied to everyone reaching a high level would be a feat. If only I lost my character everytime I died there'd be tons of max levels bopping around and just me rerolling. It would only work as a concept if everyone had to abide by it.
Well maybe this isn’t the best idea and I’m almost certain someone has proposed this before but I was thinking of it last night and had to whip off a post about it.
So When it comes to death penalty I have always thought mainstreams MMO’s offer far too little in the way of any meaningful penalty (e.g. Wow, TOR, AoC, WAR etc.). On the other hand “full looting” in some of the more “hardcore” MMO’s is fairly extreme and often leads to people never wearing there good gear. In my opinion full looting often has a negative effect on how people play, although this certainly depends on the game and is totally debatable.
To my knowledge there isn’t many MMO’s that offer much in-between the above 2 models (although I very well could be wrong).
Anyways my idea is that each class in a game would have 1 or 2 major buffs that could only be placed on themselves. Theses Buffs would be enough that it would fundamentally effect your play if you do not have them on.
Nothing new so far right? The catch would be you would only receive (e.g 6,10 or 15) Buffs over a 24 hour period. Meaning that if you died X number of times you would be kind of useless in competitive PvP or PvE.
This in my mind would make Raiding Deaths and Open world PvP meaningful enough that it would sting to die but not to the point where you quit the game and throw your computer out the window.
Obviously this system could be exploited and you would need to have safe guard to protect lower level or less powerful avatars. Overall though I think (if done right) this type of system could be spectacular.
What do you guys think?
This is exactly why I dont like res sickness. It takes you out of the game completely.
Corpse run = harsh...but you're still playing
Exp loss = harsh...but you're still playing
Res sickness = not harsh...but you cant do jack for 5 - 10 minutes.
I don't mind a penalty, but I dont want to have to stop playing the game just because I died.
Well maybe this isn’t the best idea and I’m almost certain someone has proposed this before but I was thinking of it last night and had to whip off a post about it.
So When it comes to death penalty I have always thought mainstreams MMO’s offer far too little in the way of any meaningful penalty (e.g. Wow, TOR, AoC, WAR etc.). On the other hand “full looting” in some of the more “hardcore” MMO’s is fairly extreme and often leads to people never wearing there good gear. In my opinion full looting often has a negative effect on how people play, although this certainly depends on the game and is totally debatable.
To my knowledge there isn’t many MMO’s that offer much in-between the above 2 models (although I very well could be wrong).
Anyways my idea is that each class in a game would have 1 or 2 major buffs that could only be placed on themselves. Theses Buffs would be enough that it would fundamentally effect your play if you do not have them on.
Nothing new so far right? The catch would be you would only receive (e.g 6,10 or 15) Buffs over a 24 hour period. Meaning that if you died X number of times you would be kind of useless in competitive PvP or PvE.
This in my mind would make Raiding Deaths and Open world PvP meaningful enough that it would sting to die but not to the point where you quit the game and throw your computer out the window.
Obviously this system could be exploited and you would need to have safe guard to protect lower level or less powerful avatars. Overall though I think (if done right) this type of system could be spectacular.
What do you guys think?
I don´t really like it. I prefer Quizz idea that you actually get locked out for a time after dying. Quizz suggest 24 hours but I think 5 minutes would be ennoying enough myself, or possibly ten,
Your idea seems a lot like those debuffs many games give you for a time (AoC have it but there you can get rid of it by clicking on the tombstone that gets left where you died), it never really felt like those things had any impact on the game at all.
Dying should annoy you but not force you to grind gear. Being locked out a while is annoying.
There is a basic issue of human nature involved. How you answer that question will affect what you think about a death penalty in a game.
Basically, people understandly like to win. There is a surge of happy that goes through you when you accomplish something that you want to do.
However, the happy feeling is even greater when you feel your achievement involved greater risk or labor. The value you place on the achievement is closely related to the pleasure you receive.
The Matrix Movie touched on this when Agent Smith explained that the computer overlord tried at first to create a perfect world, but humans rejected it. There is something in basic human nature that causes us to seek out, and to value, challenge and risk. Captain Kirk also used to allude to it in one of his Star Trek monologues. We also constantly seek ways to set ourselves apart from others by our achievements. We value climing that ladder of hierachies.
So what to do in MMORPGS? On the one hand, no one wants to be inconvenienced. This is not fun. On the other hand, no one wants to sail through with zero consequences or risk. That is boring.
IMO, players that want theme park games that have low levels of consequence for failure, e.g. death penalties, are accepting a Devil's Bargain. In exchange for not being inconvenienced, they are implicitly also accepting a ceiling on the level of enjoyment they would get from overcoming a challenge. By demanding game worlds where everyone is a King or Queen, they are accepting that those terms lose nearly all their meaning in terms of achievement.
By contrast, players who crave high consequence games like Shadowbane, which not only had full loot open world PVP but also castles you could build and burn down, buy into a deal where high risk can bring a greater sense of achievement.
The fundamental problem is this. Everyone plays these games (or they should play them for) relaxation and enjoyment. The high risk games like Shadowbane gamble that the "losing" side of the equation won't just give up and leave. High consequence games also put a premium on getting the mechanics right. Since the risk is higher, the consequences to the company when cheating, hacks and dupes are unaddressed is higher.
In essence, high risk games, e.g. with significant death penalties, bring higher risk for companies and business investors. There is a market for them. But it is not a large one.
The solution might be a hybrid. Have high risk, high consequence worlds that periodically reset. In Shadowbane terms, once a guild takes over and crushes its foes, the server is "won" and the game wipes and restarts. They never got around to this, unfortunately. And doubtless there would have been protest from people attached to their "stuff" and angry about losing it.
But this might be the best solution. Have high consequences. But also don't make re-entry costs prohibitive. And let the vanquished have a chance to climb back into the ring with a clear game board.
So When it comes to death penalty I have always thought mainstreams MMO’s offer far too little in the way of any meaningful penalty (e.g. Wow, TOR, AoC, WAR etc.). On the other hand “full looting” in some of the more “hardcore” MMO’s is fairly extreme and often leads to people never wearing there good gear. In my opinion full looting often has a negative effect on how people play, although this certainly depends on the game and is totally debatable.
The Chronicles of Spellborn had the best DP in it's PeP system... They rewarded you for living rather then penalised you for dying.
Might sound like just wordplay, but it worked and had value.
I think when you die you should die for good and have to reroll. Would make the game meaningful and challenging. Granted, many would quit but I'd stay. That's like the one feature that would keep me playing an MMO.
It's astonishingly easy to do this yourself. In about every MMO you play, there's a "delete" button on the character creation screen. Use it and make ANY MMO the MMO of your dreams.
Yeah, but it's only good if it applies to everyone. If it applied to everyone reaching a high level would be a feat. If only I lost my character everytime I died there'd be tons of max levels bopping around and just me rerolling. It would only work as a concept if everyone had to abide by it.
The problem is that most people seem to only care about showing off to other players but do not really care about challenging themselves. They need others to tell them that they are 'the best' all their achievements have to be highly visible for everyone to see.
Personally I find that attitude pathetic. If you really care about challenging yourself than you should attempt hard things even if noone else realizes what you have done. What other players are doing should have no effect on your motivation.
Getting to max level in a standard MMO without dying once would be a great achievement. However, most people talking about death penalties and challenges really do not care for challenges that do not have inheren e-peen value that is visible to other players.
Comments
If you havent played it long then thats why, I played the game for 8-9 years and with this latest expansion/patch they ruined the pk system as well as some other things we vets liked. Before it wasnt such a big deal to pk someone if he took your spot, now he will simply not flag because the guy who pks is the one who loses most. Broken system.
EVE has a great solution to death, though. You can play EVE with ZERO risk for death, or you can keep taking high risks and get, in the case of success, high rewards.
I think this sums it up pretty nicely.
It's not really a great solution. It's the virtual world (galaxy) the game is in. The DP makes total sense. It's accepted as the rules and it applies to everyone. It's not some amazing fix, it's immersion. It's common sense.
The same can be applied to any mmo in development.
umm no!
The best death penalty is one where you are sent to retrieve all your inventory and suffer a small XP reduction over the course of 10-15 mins. FFA looting is a niche and is stupid, and WoW style Themepark deaths are nothing short of a free trip back to town. Having a Death penalty similar to DAoC with a bit of Shadowbane/Asherons Call is the best IMO.
Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online
Playing: GW2
Waiting on: TESO
Next Flop: Planetside 2
Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
The problem is that the 5 minute penalty is adequate only for people of your playstyle and expectations, it is completely inadequate for people WE actually want to pk less and/or think about attacking or not.
A high level "disruptive element" will have to always consider the penalty going to pk lowbies, because there is always the chance that he will be zerged to death, without a permanent penalty he has no reason to not do it over and over again.
A adequate system has to be tuned right (in l2 you have resurrects offering a part lost exp back, blessed rez scrolls, clan wars offering a lower penalty to participants...), but that does not mean that it should only fit the expectations of people which are not likely to be its "victims" often.
As for PvE, you can take plenty of risks on low levels, where the penalty is low, in l2 specifically the game does not (or didnt, when i played it) offer significantly different pve play style while leveling and at maxlevel, in the end its about learning the game system in the first place.
Flame on!
This could actually work as long as the player could also benefit at the same time. Like still getting xp/loot/etc.
It would be sorta like being forced to run a dungeon whether you wanted to or not. Maybe you would get half the xp/loot than if you were playing normaly.
Or instead of porting the player to a different realm, they could just get an xp and lower chance of item drop debuff for awhile. Although I kinda like the idea of the player being thrown into a dungeon, having to fight their way out.
Why would raid deaths need to be more "meaningful"?
Isn't it enough to fail to receive a reward because you died? (or rather: because one of your teammates got the raid wiped...)
Excessive penalty adds nothing to games.
Make a game nice and challenging with the death penalty being a simple, instant reset*, and you'll have the best death penalty possible. (* and in the case of dungeons/raids, this reset could potentially take you back several mob packs) The result is a death penalty focused on gameplay rather than non-gameplay.
Because (surprise!) players play games for gameplay, not penalty.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I think when you die you should die for good and have to reroll. Would make the game meaningful and challenging. Granted, many would quit but I'd stay. That's like the one feature that would keep me playing an MMO.
It's astonishingly easy to do this yourself. In about every MMO you play, there's a "delete" button on the character creation screen. Use it and make ANY MMO the MMO of your dreams.
Best death penalty ever... already existed...
When you decided to be a jerk in Ultima Online then got killed. Yet kept following people around OooOoooo... even tho they probably didn't have spirit speak... just trying to be even more of a jerk.
So we open a moongate and say "let's go hunt" ... you follow us through... we dispel the moongate and recall away. Leaving you in a specific part of the map that you can't walk out of. You could walk in (kind of drop down some hills) but the only way back out .. was recall or gate ... you can't recall because you're dead and well we dispelled the gate for obvious reasons.
Best penalty ever... with built in behaviour modification... to possibly make you less prone to suffer the penalty again.
Yeah, but it's only good if it applies to everyone. If it applied to everyone reaching a high level would be a feat. If only I lost my character everytime I died there'd be tons of max levels bopping around and just me rerolling. It would only work as a concept if everyone had to abide by it.
I'm not a fan of death penalties that are like "whew you really messed up! Now you can't really play the game for the next 24 hours."
This is exactly why I dont like res sickness. It takes you out of the game completely.
Corpse run = harsh...but you're still playing
Exp loss = harsh...but you're still playing
Res sickness = not harsh...but you cant do jack for 5 - 10 minutes.
I don't mind a penalty, but I dont want to have to stop playing the game just because I died.
I don´t really like it. I prefer Quizz idea that you actually get locked out for a time after dying. Quizz suggest 24 hours but I think 5 minutes would be ennoying enough myself, or possibly ten,
Your idea seems a lot like those debuffs many games give you for a time (AoC have it but there you can get rid of it by clicking on the tombstone that gets left where you died), it never really felt like those things had any impact on the game at all.
Dying should annoy you but not force you to grind gear. Being locked out a while is annoying.
Very Smart thinking... well thought out
The Chronicles of Spellborn had the best DP in it's PeP system... They rewarded you for living rather then penalised you for dying.
Might sound like just wordplay, but it worked and had value.
The problem is that most people seem to only care about showing off to other players but do not really care about challenging themselves. They need others to tell them that they are 'the best' all their achievements have to be highly visible for everyone to see.
Personally I find that attitude pathetic. If you really care about challenging yourself than you should attempt hard things even if noone else realizes what you have done. What other players are doing should have no effect on your motivation.
Getting to max level in a standard MMO without dying once would be a great achievement. However, most people talking about death penalties and challenges really do not care for challenges that do not have inheren e-peen value that is visible to other players.